Alternatives To Thailand ?

[Donz]

I really would like to visit Loas when I go to thailand next, but get mixed feedback, people say it a hel_l hole and some say its great.

Would that place be worth a visit and which country out of Loas, Cambodia and vietnam would eb the best place to visit close to thailand?

[GracelessFawn]

The armed guards with shotguns everyhwere add to a perception of violence - but they are not a sign of violence. I felt safe in the Phils. The baggage checks for weapons as you enter shopping malls and the armed guards in front of burget joints are not violent. Several times I would walk the streets of Cebu City, in the middle of the night, alone, even through poor areas. During my year there I read of one armed robbery crime in the city. No shots were fired.

On the other hand I was told that one should have a weapon while there. Boats can expect to be pirated, and people get killed at sea. Prostitutes can expect to be shaken down by local gangster toughs if they wander to a disco in a new town. Foreigners are treated in sly ways; what we don't know won't hurt us. Women are far too available. The upper and middle classes are too small a percentage, and are not yet bored with wealth. A party atmosphere burbles below all surfaces. It is the wild wild west, latino style. Dangerous, musky, sexy.

OK, let me ask you this, "would it be possible for security guards to protect the people, the community, and themselves if they aren't allowed to carry guns?" (Do you really think that a flashlight and a stick would help?) It is common knowledge that criminals carry weapons - knives, guns, bats, pipes, etc. I don't seriously think that they would commit crimes without arming themselves. Can you imagine what would be the scenario if the security guards aren't equipped with the necessary gadgets?

You said, you were told that you should have a weapon? By who? Do you even know the laws about carrying firearms in my country?

Boat pirates? Believe me man, I grew up near the ocean and no boat has ever been attacked by pirates! There are no pirates in the Philippines! OK...... when the Spaniards came to Mactan Island on March 16, 1521, (that's near Cebu! In fact, most newbies confuse this place as part of Cebu.........) the native chieftain of the island fought against the conquerors. ***That's where the pirate stories came from!

Yes, we do have prostitutes in my country. I admit that until now, my gov't hasn't completely put a halt to prostitution practices, despite of the information campaign drives and programs that my gov't is actively pushing. But am I wrong if I say, "prostitutes exist all over the world, and they can be found in every country!"

Yes, there's a scattering of gangs and mafias here and there, but come on, they exist in almost every country! Are am I wrong?

Yes, you are right about the uneven destribution of wealth in my country! It is unfortunate, but true. (Is this what happens when you embrace democracy????) This has always been the problem of 3rd world countries, I believe.

Sly ways? They'll call you JOE back there, and would even offer you food and sometimes, even shelter. ***If you want to experience this next time, try visiting areas that are not in the tourist maps, for a change.

You will truly feel welcome! You might even notice the degree of innocence that people have back home. They are quiet a trusting, forgiving, easy-going and friendly bunch!

OH btw, the smoke coughing jeepney machines you were talking about are very important to low-mid class people because it provides them a cheap form of transport! And yeah, it can be a bit noisy, but it has become distinctly a characteristic of my country. You will never ever see a jeepney all your life, unless you visit the Philippines! Besides, such transportation economizes the use of gasoline, so why not?

Did you see the horse-drawn carriages that are still used for transportation in Cebu? They are called Kalezas. If you have ridden one, you will know that the horses really smell bad, but it comes with the territory! Doesn't it?

hello miss fawn,

and the first thing id like to say is, your looking cracking bloody gorgeous today and should be the frigging queen of the philipines.

if i was the boss cocky over there you'd be straight in the top job, no sweat at all .

next thing id like to say is thats its a real low act dishing the dirt on your home country and im on your side forever.

cheers terry

Hahahhahhahaaa. Thanks Terry. I'm having a h*ll of a time defending my country. It seems like a lot of people are ignorant about some issues in my country. It kills me to see them posting here.

Anyhoo, how are you doin' mate?

[GracelessFawn]

OK, let me ask you this, "would it be possible for security guards to protect the people, the community, and themselves if they aren't allowed to carry guns?"

OK, let me ask you this: do they really have gun-toting security guards in front of places like McDonald's?

I worked in a place last year where they had machine-gun toting stormtroopers out front (it is a bank HQ), and I certainly did not feel more secure going there to work every day. I can only imagine that if there are a lot of security guard types with loaded weapons it would be pretty unnerving and spoil the party for me.

If I am not mistaken, I would say that you haven't worked in the Philippines before, so I assume that what you've witness happened in another country.

About guns...... Yeah, a lot of people don't like to see guns or see people carrying them. Some people even associate GUNS with violence. Yes, they could be right. But if only we stop and think rationally for a second, throw away our emotions, and just concentrate on hard facts - we might be in for a big surprise!

Logically, we all understand that criminals carry guns and/or some kind of weapon(s). I don't think that they will apply for licenses to carry arms, nor will they acquire it legally.

So how do we beat the criminals? Do we arm or disarm the people?

If you prohibit the people from carrying guns, you are simply making it easy for the criminals to commit crimes!

Back to the Philippines....... That's the reason why our security guards and policemen carry guns! We equip them with tools to better protect the citizens and themselves, and try to give them a fair chance (and hopefully an advantage) against the armed criminals who will stop at nothing!

Edited October 4, 2006 by GracelessFawn

[GuestHouse]

But if we stop and think rationally for a second, throw away our emotions, and just concentrate on hard facts - we might be in for a big surprise!

I could not have said it better myself.

[GracelessFawn]

hello punters,

ive never been to the philipines so i would not have a clue whats going down over there. ?

a few of you are saying its a dangerous place.

is it dangerous for a backpacker or tourist or is it dangerous because you could be caught up in local problems.

in other words the wrong place at the wrong time. ?

cheers

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you not to carry more than $10 dollars outside because there is a pretty fair chance that you will be robbed.

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you not to carry your passport around with you because the police might stop you and confiscate it until you pay them a lot of money.

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you that if your taxi doesn't go straight to your destination, you should jump out at the first opportunity because the taxi driver is going to rob or shoot you.

It makes Vietnam look like the most honest place on the planet!

Are you serious?

You know, it's always easy to talk crap about a country without thinking of it's implications! I do mind because I happen to come from the very country that you are thrashing!

For some reason, I don't believe what you are saying!

I know my country has it's hang-ups, but it can't be that bad!

PS - as I said, we had a hard time for awhile, but things are a whole lot better now!

[lung]

indonesia ??

lao ??

[khall64au]

Has anybody mentioned Darwin? Lots of Thais, a hop skip and jump to Asia... good wine at a decent price, oh and western food too. I dunno, haven't been there in 20 yrs but a good friend tells me Darwin town is funkin up....

Any recent opinions on the capital of Aussie Top End/ gateway to SE Asia?

[GracelessFawn]

What about Boracay, El Nido, Puerto Galeria, Amanpolo, Bohol, Camiguin, etc etc etc?

Edited October 4, 2006 by GracelessFawn

[khall64au]

What -EVERRRRRRRRR... Ms Fawn... are we allowed to deviate away from the Phillippines for just a moment or 2?

Do you still live there btw??

[Old Croc]

Darwin is a fun place these days with everything available for those who want it. But it is expensive by Australian standards let alone Thailand.

[thohts]

mmm, how about new zealand? seems easy to get in, I heard.

My brother lives in NZ, he hates the place, he is always complaining about how cold it is and how miserable the weather is.

Nice place with lots of nice views, but not to live, holiday is good though

A few stats, cuz I have nothing better to do this evening...

New Zealand is one of the most dangerous countries in the world, with a crime rate (per capita) that exceeds the US's (for comparison) by about 30%. The murder rate is pretty low, though.

Regarding Brasil, the murder rate is about the same as Venezula's (.29 per thousand)

Tourist-specific stats are needed for countries, though. Are you more likely to die in Brasil (or any other country) as a tourist or a local?

[thohts]

Here's my list of alternatives:

1. Malaysia (my second home program)

2. Argentina (rentista visa)

3. Uruguay

[sbk]

why Uruguay?

[englishoak]

Plenty of places I can think of I would be quite happy in for a time but as this thread says what happens when it gets you down?

Thailand. Great people,great food, great fun,everything you want you can get,rich culture,safe,cheap. It may not have the best of anything, but it has got a v good choice of everything.

PI Great place, wonderful people but I have toi say it IS dangerous and you have to realy keep your wits about you.

Malaysia. Lovely people, foods great ( but too much chicken) but is mai sanook !

Cambodia. People are great, foods crap (local) infrastructure is poor,can be dangerous.

India (south) lovely people,masses of history/culture. Crap food, v v cheap.

Laos. Opening up, real lovely people, foods a poor thai copy but ok. No problem with a communist Gov. Landlocked.

Jamaica. Great Fun, great food, pretty dangerous & getting expensive.

Mexico. Great fun, loads of history, crap food, everyone thinks your american & ignores you.

Vietnam. (North) lovely people, very serious but can be good fun if you go local. V cheap in the country.Fantastic beaches. Very distrusting of farang (undersandable)

Tahiti. Paradise on earth. Typhoons & v expensive,Americanised.

Indonesia. Wonderful people,very relaxed,v cheap, local foods not too bad but gets boring. Too much chicken.

Bali. Fantastic people, wonderful food, v relaxed,pretty cheap,safe.

Peru. Superb food,pretty cheap, pretty relaxed. Scams are everywhere.

Australia. Great food,plenty of things to do, no culture & v expensive.

China. hmm not fair to judge as it's so vast but I hated it. Like being in a goldfish bowl (the fish)

Lived for a time in all these countries, some longer than others.

Bottom line is I have always loved living in Thailand and i'll stick with the LOS thank you .The only one i'd consider to live long term as an alternative would be Bali but visa's are a real pain in the ass.

[rikpa]

Peru. Superb food,pretty cheap, pretty relaxed. Scams are everywhere.

I was only in Peru very briefly, for an excursion to Macchu Picchu, but really felt a dark, negative vibe there, from the kids loitering around the Cuzco train station with razors and hairspray (to spray in the eyes of the tourists so they could use their razors to cut the straps of the bags and make of with them). And the crushing poverty (well, places like Cambo have crushing poverty too, but for some reason they seem to be able to smile about it).

Bolivia (La Paz) felt safe. Very high altitude, but you can buy legal coca leaves and chew them, which help with the altitude sickness.

These are just impressions from a tourist though, not anything more than a single data-point (except that my friend was living there and filled me in on a lot of stuff there).

I agree, I would probably choose Bali if things go seriously pear-shaped in LoS. Singapore is also tops on my list, even if it can be boring and sterile at times. At least it has easy acess to Malaysia and Indo, and you can always come back to cleanliness and relative safety, fantastic infrastructure, manicured greenery and efficient, if Procrustean, government.

The most dangerous place I have ever lived? London, Knightsbridge. It ain't Johannesburg, but a truly scary place. I personally witnessed too much violent crime there, and almost got it too, except I got very, very lucky. My workmate lives there and has been stabbed (count 'em) seven times. And he is a banker!

[the swagman]

mmm, how about new zealand? seems easy to get in, I heard.

My brother lives in NZ, he hates the place, he is always complaining about how cold it is and how miserable the weather is.

Nice place with lots of nice views, but not to live, holiday is good though

A few stats, cuz I have nothing better to do this evening...

New Zealand is one of the most dangerous countries in the world, with a crime rate (per capita) that exceeds the US's (for comparison) by about 30%. The murder rate is pretty low, though.

Regarding Brasil, the murder rate is about the same as Venezula's (.29 per thousand)

Tourist-specific stats are needed for countries, though. Are you more likely to die in Brasil (or any other country) as a tourist or a local?

Ok, Nz , out, Brasil , out, Thailand, out Phillipines, out, Us, out,

Do you have anything constructive to add?

[rikpa]

If I am not mistaken, I would say that you haven't worked in the Philippines before, so I assume that what you've witness happened in another country.

Of course you are not mistaken, silly one.

The bank I refer to is in NYC (Manhattan), and the Fed's biggest bank HQ, with a former Treasury Secretary under Clinton coming in each day, so, a bit different... nonetheless, on to a point.

About guns...... Yeah, a lot of people don't like to see guns or see people carrying them. Some people even associate GUNS with violence. Yes, they could be right. But if only we stop and think rationally for a second, throw away our emotions, and just concentrate on hard facts - we might be in for a big surprise!

Okay, so here is what I am getting at. The presence of a lot of lethal weaponry does not instill confidence in me. Quite the opposite. It implies to me that there is a *reason* for it, namely, that there is so much violence that this is de rigeur. Am I barking mad on this?

To get to a point that agrees with yours more, my personal conjecture for the difference in violence in the UK vs. the US (and NYC is *much* safer than London, for example), is due to the fact that things can quickly escalate to lethality here, whereas in London, due to restrictive gun laws, they often result in less than life-threatening crimes, which are nevertheless seriously violent.

Again, this is only my own conjecture and not rooted in demonstrable fact. I am not anti-gun (after all, the worst institution to give a monpoly on violence to is government, but I digress), but think that the excessive display of lethal hardware says something. And it is not a very nice something. I would be the last person to trash a place I have never been, like the PI. But the fact is that a former gf who is a Filipina told me a lot of the same stuff others have said here, and it did not inspire me very much.

Yes, the beaches in the PI look incredible from the photos I've seen, and far more beautiful than places like Samui. And don't get me wrong, I would love to visit the PI. I am not a lily-livered vacationer scared off by the mere threat of violence. I lived in Cambo and have an interesting story of meeting my former Khmer Rouge in-laws, in which a fomer Cambodian Army soldier who was driving us was too terrified to go into the village with us, as it was a stronghold of the KR at the time--and he had fought the KR in the jungle for eight years (spoiler: I lived!).

The main point is, when you see a lot of guns, it says something about the society. Again, please do not take this as a trashing of the PI, as I would never trash a place I have never seen with my own eyes. There are really great people there, as I know with total certainty. It's just the presence of a lot of lethal hardware is a major turn-off for many folks, if that is really the case.

[Ulysses G.]

hello punters,

ive never been to the philipines so i would not have a clue whats going down over there. ?

a few of you are saying its a dangerous place.

is it dangerous for a backpacker or tourist or is it dangerous because you could be caught up in local problems.

in other words the wrong place at the wrong time. ?

cheers

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you not to carry more than $10 dollars outside because there is a pretty fair chance that you will be robbed.

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you not to carry your passport around with you because the police might stop you and confiscate it until you pay them a lot of money.

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you that if your taxi doesn't go straight to your destination, you should jump out at the first opportunity because the taxi driver is going to rob or shoot you.

It makes Vietnam look like the most honest place on the planet!

Are you serious?

You know, it's always easy to talk crap about a country without thinking of it's implications! I do mind because I happen to come from the very country that you are thrashing!

For some reason, I don't believe what you are saying!

I know my country has it's hang-ups, but it can't be that bad!

PS - as I said, we had a hard time for awhile, but things are a whole lot better now!

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I like your posts, but I can tell you that when I was last in the Philipines it was exactly as I described.

In fact, I said something simular - at the time - in a letter to a magazine that used to come with the Friday Bangkok Post that was distributed all over Southeast Asia and the next few weeks their letters section was filled with letters from Philipinos saying that I was a liar and foreigners agreeing with me.

I guess that it is hard to see your own country as it is.

[fruittbatt]

If I am not mistaken, I would say that you haven't worked in the Philippines before, so I assume that what you've witness happened in another country.

About guns...... Yeah, a lot of people don't like to see guns or see people carrying them. Some people even associate GUNS with violence. Yes, they could be right. But if only we stop and think rationally for a second, throw away our emotions, and just concentrate on hard facts - we might be in for a big surprise!

Logically, we all understand that criminals carry guns and/or some kind of weapon(s). I don't think that they will apply for licenses to carry arms, nor will they acquire it legally.

So how do we beat the criminals? Do we arm or disarm the people?

If you prohibit the people from carrying guns, you are simply making it easy for the criminals to commit crimes!

Back to the Philippines....... That's the reason why our security guards and policemen carry guns! We equip them with tools to better protect the citizens and themselves, and try to give them a fair chance (and hopefully an advantage) against the armed criminals who will stop at nothing!

Ms Graceless, may I suggest that of everyone posting here you are in the best position to actually give a CONSTRUCTIVE comparison of life in Philippines vs life in Thailand.

There are many posters here who are genuinely interested in getting a handle on your country with a view to deciding whether to move there. Perhaps you could contribute some useful info such as camparing costs of living, costs of apartments/condos, and any other observations from you own first hand experience. I'm sure many would appreciate such practical advice.

[fruittbatt]

Has anybody mentioned Darwin? Lots of Thais, a hop skip and jump to Asia... good wine at a decent price, oh and western food too. I dunno, haven't been there in 20 yrs but a good friend tells me Darwin town is funkin up....

Any recent opinions on the capital of Aussie Top End/ gateway to SE Asia?

Mindil Beach Market is a multi-cultural culinary delight, but the cost of living in the Top End is insane. Then there's the prevailing red neck mentality, which is alive and kickin' ass literally. Apartheid still rules, the cops are heavy. The Wet season and the cyclones are downright depressing. Tourism keeps restaurant & accomm. prices steep. But the worst part is that it's in Australia!

[LoveDaBlues]

hello punters,

ive never been to the philipines so i would not have a clue whats going down over there. ?

a few of you are saying its a dangerous place.

is it dangerous for a backpacker or tourist or is it dangerous because you could be caught up in local problems.

in other words the wrong place at the wrong time. ?

cheers

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you not to carry more than $10 dollars outside because there is a pretty fair chance that you will be robbed.

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you not to carry your passport around with you because the police might stop you and confiscate it until you pay them a lot of money.

It is the kind of place that the hotel staff tell you that if your taxi doesn't go straight to your destination, you should jump out at the first opportunity because the taxi driver is going to rob or shoot you.

It makes Vietnam look like the most honest place on the planet!

Are you serious?

You know, it's always easy to talk crap about a country without thinking of it's implications! I do mind because I happen to come from the very country that you are thrashing!

For some reason, I don't believe what you are saying!

I know my country has it's hang-ups, but it can't be that bad!

PS - as I said, we had a hard time for awhile, but things are a whole lot better now!

I am not trying to give you a hard time, I like your posts, but I can tell you that when I was last in the Philipines it was exactly as I described.

In fact, I said something simular - at the time - in a letter to a magazine that used to come with the Friday Bangkok Post that was distributed all over Southeast Asia and the next few weeks their letters section was filled with letters from Philipinos saying that I was a liar and foreigners agreeing with me.

I guess that it is hard to see your own country as it is.

Ran into a guy who had recently spent time in PI. He went into a Burger King and there was a guard walking around with a shotgun.

Talked last week with a guy who had been there. He couldn't wait to leave. Was in constant state of 'on edge' afraid of being robbed. He was in the Post Office filling out a form and had his umbrella right by him; maybe 1 foot away. Somehow they managed to steal it! If they would risk getting caught in a Post Office to steal a $3.00 umbrella......

Don't think it's anywhere I care to visit.

[Scott]

Well, I work here in LOS and have a work permit, so no plans to leave at this point. I do, however, find it interesting that everyone seems to be so concerned about security guards etc. carrying guns in the Philippines--why just 2 days ago when entering the expressway there were soldiers with guns. Just last week there were tanks on the streets. All this right here in Thailand--so why the concern about it in PI?

[ovenman]

All this right here in Thailand--so why the concern about it in PI?

Possibly because this show of arms is a relative anomaly in Thailand and part of daily life in the Philippines?

[quadricorrelator]

I plan to stay in Thailand, but will explore other countries as alternatives in case I decide otherwise in the future.

I do know of several people who have been here for years, and will be leaving. I don't know the exact reasons for their decisions. I get the impression they felt they found alternatives which better suited them.

One guy did move to the Philippines and seems quite a bit happier there. Another guy is spending more time in the U.S. and less time here in Thailand because he prefers it there.

Edited October 5, 2006 by quadricorrelator

[OlRedEyes]

I spent some time in the Phils, up to about 10 yrs ago. First visit there was travelling from Bkk.

*At the time* my first impression about the difference in attitudes came in the departure hall at DM. It struck me that the Filipino men appeared to be much more aggressive than the Thai men. I spent time in Manila, Cebu and Davao, and in some towns around these cities. Also with Filipino families.

It wasn't long before I realised that I'd have to nail my wallet down in Manila. I cannot say the same for the other areas, where i found much warmer people, who nonetheless were pretty much after whatever money I had in a much more obvious way than the Thai were - at the time.

I dare say that things may have changed since I was there. The peso was on a par with the baht at that time, and the Phils economy went further south in the following years as international investment nosedived. My personal feeling is that Thailand is following a similar curve as the Phils did ten years ago. I observe it from the same attitudes towards foreigners emerging here as was prevelant there at the time.

Thailand is not as safe and friendly as it used to be. The rip-offs are becoming much more in-your-face. Maybe the Phils is rising out of this cycle? Graceless Fawn?

Time to go check again, I think.

[rikpa]

very nice answer ,

thats exactly what i think about thailand, big smile, good heart, bit of respect and you cant go wrong.

its only the drunk'in, hoe mongoring losers that go down in los and then cry about it.

there pathetic mate.

I hope basic kindness and human decency never goes out of style! Cheers mate!

[rexall]

All this right here in Thailand--so why the concern about it in PI?

Possibly because this show of arms is a relative anomaly in Thailand and part of daily life in the Philippines?

Also because military personnel presumably know how to safely handle firearms, have training in maintaining security without actually using weapons unless absolutely necessary, are obligated to follow practices outlined in an official manual, are accountable to a chain of command, and presumably are not overly-vulnerable to bribery and other forms of corruption.

I am afraid the same could not be said for a private security guard standing in front of a McDonalds with a shotgun making a few pesos a day.

Aloha,

Rex

Edited October 5, 2006 by rexall

[Thaiquila]

Often, loving a country or not is a matter of taste and temperament.

My original attraction to Thailand was based on the "exoticness" of a culture without a Christian/European tradition. You can't say that about the Filipinos, and their men do often have a lot of the macho baggage of Latin cultures. My one and only trip there (including Manila and around Cebu) gave me the impression that the country is a hopeless basket case with a completely unsolvable poverty problem, but that they are awful friendly to Americans, matching their generally awful cuisine.

[rexall]

I plan to stay in Thailand, but will explore other countries as alternatives in case I decide otherwise in the future.

I do know of several people who have been here for years, and will be leaving. I don't know the exact reasons for their decisions. I get the impression they felt they found alternatives which better suited them.

One guy did move to the Philippines and seems quite a bit happier there. Another guy is spending more time in the U.S. and less time here in Thailand because he prefers it there.

Thu 05 Oct 06, 12:16 p.m.

Quadricorrelator,

I started this thread, and as I mentioned, the it was originally in the forum about the new visa "shakeup" and people were freaking out over it. The moderator chose to move it over here to General Topics for whatever reason. The reality of the "shakeup" may prove to be more hysteria than substance, I hope so, however plenty of people are concerned aobut how it will effect their ability to remain in Thailand on a more-or-less permanent basis. For people who have money, it's not a problem. People with money can pretty much live wherever they want. But there are great numbers of people who only marginally meet the financial requirements or have employed "creative" means of dealing with the regulations. And they many not be able to continue to do so . . . or even if they are, the ongoing climate of uncertainty simply no longer justifies the benefits of being here. I wonder if I fall into that later category? When immigration beings to feel more like harassment than simply a government's right to maintain order, I begin to wonder if it is worth it.

Obviously, I don't know the people you refer to, but perhaps what I have just described has something to do with their change of heart regarding Thailand.

My intention and hope here was to obtain good comparative data about immigration policies for various countries in the region, especially those which are "falang-friendly" and do not make it a burden either financially or logistically to stay on an ongoing basis. I am interested not just in reading the various immigration web sites of the various countries (which may contain more fantasy than fact), but how it actually works "on the ground." Oh, well.

Aloha,

Rex

[libya 115]

I never had a problem with crime in the Philippines: although there is a lot of serious robbery. On the street level, ie. muggings are rare. You are much more likely to be conned or drugged.

The Ermita/Malate areas of Manila were safe to walk around at night and I never felt threatened.

The crime factor would not put me off the Philippines, however there are lots of other reasons why I would never settle there. It is a great place for a beach holiday for a few weeks though and the people are very friendly.