Carson tells AP: Seventh-day Adventism is right for him

[Jingthing]

I'm sure we have had multiple atheist presidents. But impossible to be open about it.

[squarethecircle]

Why should Carson's religion be an issue at Why should Obama's?

You are certainly referring to Obama sitting in that church where the pastor kept stating: "God Damn America"?

I seem to recall the likes of Falwell, Robertson and numerous other bible thumpers saying much the same when upset by some event.

Well don't people like that think America was a God-fearing nation and that's why it prospered, but now it is turning away from God hence is being cursed, while on the contrary people like "Pastor" Farrakhan - don't think it was the pastor Obama studied under but similar idealogy - seem to think it was founded in evil and hence incite crime in order to take revenge.

Anyways more left-wing mud-slinging at Carson, who miraculously worked himself out of the Democrat-controlled slum of Detroit. Don't see how his religion is relevant here, just more evidence that people are sick of career politicos who lie through their teeth to win votes. Think F.A. Hayek pointed out in a chapter of one of his books that the reason the worst seem to rise to the top in politics is because it takes a dishonest person to tell people that they can have a better life by voting for them, rather than - say - hard work, creating value, perserverance, dedication, all qualities Carson displays.

[chuckd]

"Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state."

Probably because there is nothing in the Constitution that specifically calls for the separation of church and state.

I was wondering when the Democratic attack machine would pounce on Dr. Carson's religion. Doesn't take very long to get the atheist bunch cranked up and frothing at the mouth.

If there is any frothing at the mouth it comes from the religious right at the thought of an atheist getting into public office let alone becoming president despite the constitution stating quite clearly "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Many would say we have had an atheist in the office for the past seven years, myself included.

Since you so kindly pointed out Article VI of the Constitution prohibiting religious tests, then may we presume you will defend Dr. Carson's right to worship with his own choice as a Seventh Day Adventist?

If you had bothered to read my earlier posts I would have thought that was very clear. I think most atheists also would support the view that "no religious test shall ever be required" but that you would not get the same support from the religious right who wish to impose their particular fairy tale on the rest of us.

I read all your posts and don't agree with the vast majority of them. Most of them are not worthy of comment though.

I don't want to impose my religious beliefs on anyone, much less a tried and true atheist. Your choice is up to you.

But what gives you the right to claim my choice is a "fairy tale"?

Is it your sarcasm button being greased or do you talk down to everybody you disagree with?

I notice you didn't answer my question about Article VI.

Will you defend Dr. Carson's right to worship as he wishes? "Defend" being the operational word.

[micmichd]

Sure it is the right of Mr. Carson to believe anything he wants, as long as he doesn't call other people "terrorists" if they believe in something else.

[Srikcir]

I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state.

There is not room in Government for religion, especially a democratic Government for a country that is built on immigration (people from all races and religions), yet the USA's Christian politicians religious beliefs always seem take center stage.

Just ridiculous.

"Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state."

Probably because there is nothing in the Constitution that specifically calls for the separation of church and state.

I was wondering when the Democratic attack machine would pounce on Dr. Carson's religion. Doesn't take very long to get the atheist bunch cranked up and frothing at the mouth.

If there is any frothing at the mouth it comes from the religious right at the thought of an atheist getting into public office let alone becoming president despite the constitution stating quite clearly "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

See also the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. U.S. (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black wrote, "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."

The legal system in the USA follows case law. When the U.S. Supreme Court makes rulings, they have the effect of being constitutional decisions. In effect they become legal supplements to the US Constitution.

[micmichd]

Did the U.S. Supreme Court ever make any decision about where the borders of U.S.A. exactly are?

[chuckd]

I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state.

There is not room in Government for religion, especially a democratic Government for a country that is built on immigration (people from all races and religions), yet the USA's Christian politicians religious beliefs always seem take center stage.

Just ridiculous.

"Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state."

Probably because there is nothing in the Constitution that specifically calls for the separation of church and state.

I was wondering when the Democratic attack machine would pounce on Dr. Carson's religion. Doesn't take very long to get the atheist bunch cranked up and frothing at the mouth.

If there is any frothing at the mouth it comes from the religious right at the thought of an atheist getting into public office let alone becoming president despite the constitution stating quite clearly "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

See also the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. U.S. (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black wrote, "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."

The legal system in the USA follows case law. When the U.S. Supreme Court makes rulings, they have the effect of being constitutional decisions. In effect they become legal supplements to the US Constitution.

No court decision changes the Constitution nor does it become a supplement to the Constitution.

A Supreme Court decision is just that. A decision by a particular court on a particular article of the Constitution.

A later court can render that decision incorrect and amend it as they wish.

It is what it is...a decision based on a particular point of Constitutional law by a unique set of individual judges.

And in the end, separation of church and state is nowhere to be found in the Constitution. It simply isn't there.

[up2u2]

See also the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. U.S. (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black wrote, "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."

The legal system in the USA follows case law. When the U.S. Supreme Court makes rulings, they have the effect of being constitutional decisions. In effect they become legal supplements to the US Constitution.

Correct.

[pitrevie]

Since you so kindly pointed out Article VI of the Constitution prohibiting religious tests, then may we presume you will defend Dr. Carson's right to worship with his own choice as a Seventh Day Adventist?

If you had bothered to read my earlier posts I would have thought that was very clear. I think most atheists also would support the view that "no religious test shall ever be required" but that you would not get the same support from the religious right who wish to impose their particular fairy tale on the rest of us.

I read all your posts and don't agree with the vast majority of them. Most of them are not worthy of comment though.

I don't want to impose my religious beliefs on anyone, much less a tried and true atheist. Your choice is up to you.

But what gives you the right to claim my choice is a "fairy tale"?

Is it your sarcasm button being greased or do you talk down to everybody you disagree with?

I notice you didn't answer my question about Article VI.

Will you defend Dr. Carson's right to worship as he wishes? "Defend" being the operational word.

Strange how its okay for you to use sarcasm and talk down to people.

What gives me the right to describe your choice as a fairy tale, I would have thought the 1st amendment.

I am glad to see that you do not wish to impose your religious beliefs on anyone but that is the problem, there are many on the religious right who wish to do just that.

“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.” Barry Goldwater.

"Will you defend Dr. Carson's right to worship as he wishes? "Defend" being the operational word." As a secularist I would have thought I had made that clear several times in earlier answers. The constitution gives him that right and as much as I dislike all religions, people should be free to worship whoever and whatever they like.

[up-country_sinclair]

Carlson's "religion" tells him that the Egyptian pyramids were built to store grain.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ben-carsons-unusual-theory-about-pyramids/

[Johpa]

I'm sure we have had multiple atheist presidents. But impossible to be open about it.

I am not sure about atheist presidents, although some went to church only on the rare occasion. But many of America's founding figures were arguably, by modern Christian thought, heretical Deists.

[manarak]

any politician who truly believes in religion is IMO infit to rule a country

[Jingthing]

any politician who truly believes in religion is IMO infit to rule a country

Conventionally religious is one thing.

Read this piece.

It sounds to me like the "good Doctor" might actually be religiously insane.

Of course, I'm not a Doctor:

Like I've said, the more you know about Dr. C, the CREEPIER he sounds.

Good choice to lead a suicidal religious cult.

Yes it's scary that he is doing so well even for FIVE MINUTES.

Ben Carson, the humblebragging instrument of God

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2015/11/05/ben-carson-the-humblebragging-instrument-of-god/?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_carson-mm-822am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

[Jingthing]

Baton of Freedom?

https://soundcloud.com/abcpolitics/ben-carson-radio-ad

[Ulysses G.]

I'm sure we have had multiple atheist presidents. But impossible to be open about it.

Obama fo one. He is very supportive of Islam, but I doubt if he really believes in it.

[JHolmesJr]

I think he's a psycho….the way he goes on about his anger problems in the past…hitting people with baseball bats, bricks and stabbing a guy over some minor disagreement (the knife hit the guys belt buckle and nothing happened). He makes trump look like a cool guy.

[lannarebirth]

I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state.

There is not room in Government for religion, especially a democratic Government for a country that is built on immigration (people from all races and religions), yet the USA's Christian politicians religious beliefs always seem take center stage.

Just ridiculous.

There is nothing in the US Constitution regarding the separation of church and state. The concept originated from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists after having received their letter congratulating him on his electoral victory. You may be thinking of the Establishment Clause that states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

[up2u2]

I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state.

There is not room in Government for religion, especially a democratic Government for a country that is built on immigration (people from all races and religions), yet the USA's Christian politicians religious beliefs always seem take center stage.

Just ridiculous.

There is nothing in the US Constitution regarding the separation of church and state. The concept originated from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists after having received their letter congratulating him on his electoral victory. You may be thinking of the Establishment Clause that states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The US Supreme Court does not agree with you. It has continually determined and ruled the intent of the 'establishment clause' is the Separation of State and Church'. Any time the US Congress attempts to 'establish' ANY legislation regarding religion it is knocked down. The Constitution is clear the US Government has no jurisdiction in religious matters. The State is effectively separated from matters of concerning religion.

[manarak]

I'm sure we have had multiple atheist presidents. But impossible to be open about it.

the founding fathers appear to have been freemasons, and being a freemason is pretty close to being an atheist - DESPITE what the order officially claims.

[chuckd]

I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state.

There is not room in Government for religion, especially a democratic Government for a country that is built on immigration (people from all races and religions), yet the USA's Christian politicians religious beliefs always seem take center stage.

Just ridiculous.

There is nothing in the US Constitution regarding the separation of church and state. The concept originated from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists after having received their letter congratulating him on his electoral victory. You may be thinking of the Establishment Clause that states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The US Supreme Court does not agree with you. It has continually determined and ruled the intent of the 'establishment clause' is the Separation of State and Church'. Any time the US Congress attempts to 'establish' ANY legislation regarding religion it is knocked down. The Constitution is clear the US Government has no jurisdiction in religious matters. The State is effectively separated from matters of concerning religion.

Please point us to the part of the Constitution that contains the words..."Separation of church and state".

This is what this discussion is about.

The actual words and NOT the intent.

Please provide a citation to the Constitutional Article or Amendment that uses the words "separation of church and state".

[up-country_sinclair]

Please point us to the part of the Constitution that contains the words..."Separation of church and state".

This is what this discussion is about.

The actual words and NOT the intent.

Please provide a citation to the Constitutional Article or Amendment that uses the words "separation of church and state".

Our resident constitutional scholar is at it again.

Whatever happened to that impeachment of President Obama due to his alleged violations of the Constitution?

Never mind. Let's get back on topic.

This thread is about Carson telling the AP he's happy being a cult member.

7th day Adventists (and Carson) believe the world was created in 6 days. Literally, 6 days.

http://www.ibtimes.com/what-ben-carsons-religion-facts-about-seventh-day-adventist-faith-six-day-creation-2159147

[Andaman Al]

Meanwhile it appears today that Carson has been economical with the truth about his often quoted story about turning down a scholarship at West Point - In fact he never applied. Also his friends cannot recall the violent tendencies he says he had as a youth, including trying to hit his mother on the head with a hammer and trying to stab a friend but the knife hit the friends belt buckle and broke! Since his friends cannot recall this he now says it was a close relative he tried to stab! He has used his violent background as a youth to show how he saw redemption through God and repented blah blah blah. This is a story the Evangelicals and Born Agains love, and one that he gives to all his fellow 7th Day Adventists at any opportunity. His next call for redemption and forgiveness from God will be for lying - and it will probably work with his followers.

From the New York Times (read further down the page as well)

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/11/06/ben-carson-west-point/

Oh Dear!! It will all come out in the wash! Wait till the press really get in to his life next year.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Andaman Al

[Jingthing]

I wouldn't be surprised if he throws a big hissy fit about "media bullies" and just withdraws. No loss!

[up2u2]

Please point us to the part of the Constitution that contains the words..."Separation of church and state".

This is what this discussion is about.

The actual words and NOT the intent.

Please provide a citation to the Constitutional Article or Amendment that uses the words "separation of church and state".

Who is saying the words 'Separation of church and State' appear in the Constitution? No one. The actual words were used by Thomas Jefferson when he articulated the 'establishment clause'

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

For someone who holds such strong politically motivated ideologies you don't seem to have a good knowledge of the basics of secular modern democratic principles that America is founded on chuckd.

[RidgeRunner]

I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state.

There is not room in Government for religion, especially a democratic Government for a country that is built on immigration (people from all races and religions), yet the USA's Christian politicians religious beliefs always seem take center stage.

Just ridiculous.

"Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state."

Probably because there is nothing in the Constitution that specifically calls for the separation of church and state.

I was wondering when the Democratic attack machine would pounce on Dr. Carson's religion. Doesn't take very long to get the atheist bunch cranked up and frothing at the mouth.

"Atheist bunch"?

You mean, intellectuals, right?

Look up the American Academy of Scientists. These are elite scientists in the USA. How many of these people are 'believers'?

[RidgeRunner]

Carson: "proud of the fact that I believe what God has said … that I believe in a literal six-day creation."

WOW! This guy went to college? He's a brain surgeon so I am pretty sure he did.

Must have skipped the science classes

He never spoke with biologists, astrophysicists, archeologists, palaeontologists or visited a natural history museum?

What a wacky world these GOP types live in.

Edited November 6, 2015 by RidgeRunner

[RidgeRunner]

Will a president Carson want the 'Creation' theory taught in school science class? Isn't that going backwards?

I think its reasonable to discuss the bible in a literature class or religious history class but definitly not in the science class. After all, the kids need to compete in a modern world.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains how a 'science denying' leader can cause the intellectual collapse of a great society.

https://youtu.be/Fl1nJC3lvFs

[micmichd]

Dr Carson is obviously insane and should have his mental state checked.

[squarethecircle]

Carson: "proud of the fact that I believe what God has said … that I believe in a literal six-day creation."

WOW! This guy went to college? He's a brain surgeon so I am pretty sure he did.

Must have skipped the science classes

He never spoke with biologists, astrophysicists, archeologists, palaeontologists or visited a natural history museum?

What a wacky world these GOP types live in.

Well to be fair the mainstream theories for the origination of the universe and of life both rely on similar leaps past logic. Science is supposed to be a system for testing and refining models of the universe, but is suscept to the same cognitive biases as religion. Not that you will find many scientists humble enough to admit this, but the structure of how they form their beliefs about how things came to be is the same way that religionists form their beliefs. The testing/scientific method builds superior models but the actual process by which they arrive at their belief systems is no different (see Sam Harris). Another way to put: the scientific method is superior for testing models of how things work, but scientists themselves form their own beliefs (about the Big Bang and Evolution, in this case) in the same way as Carson forms his belief structure. Same parts of the brain form it.

So I'd say: what a wacko world these liberal media types live in. They see a successful and self-made independent black man and act like they've got a runaway slave on their hands.

[chuckd]

Please point us to the part of the Constitution that contains the words..."Separation of church and state".

This is what this discussion is about.

The actual words and NOT the intent.

Please provide a citation to the Constitutional Article or Amendment that uses the words "separation of church and state".

Who is saying the words 'Separation of church and State' appear in the Constitution? No one. The actual words were used by Thomas Jefferson when he articulated the 'establishment clause'

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

For someone who holds such strong politically motivated ideologies you don't seem to have a good knowledge of the basics of secular modern democratic principles that America is founded on chuckd.

"Who is saying the words 'Separation of church and State' appear in the Constitution? No one."

I refer you to post #21 which says in part...

"I find it quite funny that guns rights people always quote an amendment to their constitution as the reason for them to have the right to bare (sic) arms.

Yet no one seems to quote to original part of the constitution that says there must be a separation of church and state."

The poster's statement is patently incorrect. As I have stated and you have refused to acknowledge, those particular words are nowhere to be found in the Constitution. The INTENT of the establishment clause was never questioned nor mentioned by me

I know where the separation of church and state concept came from, but that particular choice of words does not appear in the Constitution and all your obfuscation cannot prove otherwise.

And with that comment this subject is closed to me. When you can prove me wrong you can expect an apology.