Palestinians say amateur video backs claims of Israeli abuse

[dexterm]

The Palestinians were screwed, are screwed and will continue to be screwed.

The Euro Jews are smarter and more importantly have the US and media backing them. Also their propaganda is better.

Short of another major power intervention Palestinian land will continue to shrink, eventually they'll at best eventually be a footnote in history.

As I'm not Palestinian its neither here nor there to me, however I do wonder about the moral compass of those that pretend it's all a righteous thing.

You are probably correct about their land shrinking to the point of a 2 state solution becoming impossible, but I don't think the Palestinian population will shrink to nothing and disappear. And I can't see the world, EU, or even USA tolerating another round of ethnic cleansing by Israel.

So Israel will have the problem of what to do with 4.5 million Palestinians they have under occupation. An interesting dilemma: beg the Palestinians for a 2 state solution; apartheid; equal citizenship?

Edited November 6, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Ah, so the 'terrorism' is ineffectual. Why worry about it then and retaliate with great force time and time again?

Because stepping on these fools keeps them from becoming more effective. Every time they use violence against civilized men, women and children, stomp firmly on their heads and don't stop.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[alanrchase]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Ah, so the 'terrorism' is ineffectual. Why worry about it then and retaliate with great force time and time again?

Because stepping on these fools keeps them from becoming more effective. Every time they use violence against civilized men, women and children, stomp firmly on their heads and don't stop.

So civilized people are advised to stomp on heads and don't stop?

[Ulysses G.]

They are violent Islamic terrorists. Step on their heads until they stop attacking innocent civilians.

[alanrchase]

They are violent Islamic terrorists. Step on their heads until they stop attacking innocent civilians.

Suspect the Palestinians view the Israelis as terrorists.

[dexterm]

I just hope that as in the OP they capture the images of Israelis stomping on the heads, and they go viral. The world will judge exactly how civilized Israelis are.

[Ulysses G.]

The Israelis have been stepping on their heads since the Palestinians first started attacking them about a hundred years ago. That is why Israel is a thriving country and Palestine is nothing but a delusional dream.

[alanrchase]

The Israelis have been stepping on their heads since the Palestinians first started attacking them about a hundred years ago. That is why Israel is a thriving country and Palestine is nothing but a delusional dream.

Do you believe the world is only 6,000 years old as well?

[Ulysses G.]

You don't seem to understand the difference between myths and facts. There is plenty of evidence that the Arabs started the violent conflict with the Jews and LOST.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[alanrchase]

You don't seem to understand the difference between myths and facts. There is plenty of evidence that the Arabs started the violent conflict with the Jews and LOS T.

Yes. A 2,000 year old book tells me all about it. If one has a read of it the "Chosen People" were egged on to commit genocide. Smite and leave no men women or children alive.

[Ulysses G.]

Sounds like the version they tell on Stormfront.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[alanrchase]

Sounds like the version they tell on Stormfront.

The book is the book isn't it? Old a bit dodgy New a bit nicer. No idea who Stormfront are. Extreemists on both sides each as bad as the other.

[Ulysses G.]

Extreemists on both sides each as bad as the other.

At least you admit your faults.

[alanrchase]

Extreemists on both sides each as bad as the other.

At least you admit your faults.

Will you?

[ddavidovsky]

The Palestinians need to accept that they have been overtaken by a bigger sweep of history than they can comprehend and that they have really lost this battle. Of course, they won't accept that because of their pride, which they will take to their graves. This damanged pride is at the root of the conflict and has globalised like a cancer into an anti-western jihad that has unsettled the whole world.

Israel needs to understand this. Their pride is involved too - the whole of Palestine is so important to them that they are apparently content to keep up this war of attrition, even if it takes centuries. But being the effective victors, they have more pride to expend - they can better afford to be be magnanimous and conciliatory, therefore it's up to them to put an end to this mess. They should be the first to put down their arms. For the sake of world peace, Israel should unconditionally accept a Palestinian state.

I am available for the position of Secretary-General of the UN.

Edited November 6, 2015 by ddavidovsky

[Steely Dan]

The Palestinians should be careful not to throw stones in glass houses, every day brings more footage of them behaving like backward savages. Here we have mummy of stabber pulling out a knife during a TV interview. The look of discomfort and embarrassment on the presenters face is priceless.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s&v=aVb2zBByGCA

[Morch]

Pallywood releases videos for activists to howl at, they always omit the context behind what is filmed, and that's when they are not outright fabrications.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2015/11/those-israelis-humiliating-innocent.html

So shooting a person on the ground is alright?

No, it Is not.

Then again, having incidents such as these makes sure tension is high, which might lead to mistakes and misconduct:

In the latest attack, a Palestinian stabbed and wounded an Israeli border policeman at the Qalandia crossing in the West Bank, a police spokesman said. The attacker was initially shot and wounded in the leg.

During a follow-up body search, the attacker drew a second knife and tried to stab another officer, after which he was shot dead, the spokesman said.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/10/17/uk-israel-palestinians-idUKKCN0SB08V20151017

The Foreign Press Association understands a Palestinian posing as a local news photographer and wearing a t-shirt marked PRESS stabbed an Israeli soldier in Hebron today (Oct. 16). We utterly deplore this violation of press privilege and call on local Palestinian media organizations to immediately verify all media credentials to ensure there are no violations. The FPA represents the foreign media working in Israel and the Palestinian Territories and tightly restricts the issuance of FPA credentials.

http://www.fpa.org.il/?categoryId=101308

[Morch]

Just give the palestinians a proper homeland,give them some hope of a future that they can determine themselves.

In general, yes.

In practice - aside from the Israeli leadership not up for this sort of thing, give it to whom and under what conditions?

Not as if Israel's unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip proved a great success. And not as if there is a unified Palestinian stand and leadership able to handle such a move.

[Morch]

Just give the palestinians a proper homeland,give them some hope of a future that they can determine themselves.

Most of them want that "homeland" to include Tel Aviv, etc. and have been brainwashed from babies to think Jews don't have a right to any state in the middle east.

Therein lies the problem.

I have no idea that this view represents a majority among the Palestinians. That a substantial enough number of the Palestinian subscribe to this position is probably correct. And then there are their Israeli counterparts, who believe the West Bank belongs to them by right. Again, doubt that this describes a majority, but a large enough part of the electorate. The issue with both these groups is that given their convictions, they are more involved in the conflict, and hence more likely to be the cause for further clashes.

[stevenl]

Because stepping on these fools keeps them from becoming more effective. Every time they use violence against civilized men, women and children, stomp firmly on their heads and don't stop.

You really have an attitude problem, and a problem understanding fellow human beings.

You don't have to agree with them, but at least be open and try to understand others. You don't give shit.

[Morch]

The camera usually lies when it comes from a Palestinian source, but here's a pro-forma answer for any Israel thread. Should an Israeli be convicted of wrongdoing I condemn their actions and trust they will be punished in accordance with the law, however I will wait for judicial process before making further comment. I haven't had chance to look at the vehicle clip yet, but have seen a similar one presented as An Israeli running over a Palestinian which you could even see from the video was a lie. There is usually more than a little projection in these videos considering the number of instances of Palestinian terrorists running over Israelis, though seldom if ever a thread discussing such incidents.

Some would say that transgressions by Israelis, IDF and illegal settlers alike, are not thoroughly investigated. And furthermore, that the penalties imposed in cases of such wrongdoing by Israelis are relatively lightweight compared with those involving Palestinian offenders. Even wholesale denial of evidence presented by Palestinians (and I agree that there is a significant amount of distortion), cannot account for the minimal level of enforcement with regard to Israelis in the West Bank.

Not that far back, during one of Thailand's own political troubled periods, another poster (wandasloan, I think) made a good comment about armies not being fit, by virtue of being armies, to police and maintain order (or something very similar, apologies for inaccuracies). This is even more spot on with reference to a prolonged situation, and and the two populations being distinct. There is no conceivable way for an army to maintain such an occupation and not have its moral code degraded over time. Being a conscript army, there is no way for this to have long term effects on society as a whole.

There is no way to fight terrorism wearing silk gloves, but there is also a fine line separating fighting something and turning into a version of it. When incidents as described in the OP are coupled with the can-do-no-wrong attitude (or its counterpart it's-all-their-fault) the slippery slope is a step nearer.

[Morch]

Oh boy. You may want to google where these people came from. Abas refuses to sit down for talks with Israel. He said recently that all Jews should be knifed. What news chain do you follow?

Abbas was born in Safed, well within the area allocated for the Jewish state on the 1947 partition plan.

Abbas mostly refuses sham talks with Netanyahu, as these tend to lead nowhere. He is not averse to talks in general, and this is a matter of facts.

While he did not shy back from incitement, cannot recall Abbas saying "all Jews should be knifed" - a source would be appreciated.

[Jingthing]

I agree. He hasn't said anything that atrocious. Isn't that special?

[Steely Dan]

The camera usually lies when it comes from a Palestinian source, but here's a pro-forma answer for any Israel thread. Should an Israeli be convicted of wrongdoing I condemn their actions and trust they will be punished in accordance with the law, however I will wait for judicial process before making further comment. I haven't had chance to look at the vehicle clip yet, but have seen a similar one presented as An Israeli running over a Palestinian which you could even see from the video was a lie. There is usually more than a little projection in these videos considering the number of instances of Palestinian terrorists running over Israelis, though seldom if ever a thread discussing such incidents.

Some would say that transgressions by Israelis, IDF and illegal settlers alike, are not thoroughly investigated. And furthermore, that the penalties imposed in cases of such wrongdoing by Israelis are relatively lightweight compared with those involving Palestinian offenders. Even wholesale denial of evidence presented by Palestinians (and I agree that there is a significant amount of distortion), cannot account for the minimal level of enforcement with regard to Israelis in the West Bank.

Not that far back, during one of Thailand's own political troubled periods, another poster (wandasloan, I think) made a good comment about armies not being fit, by virtue of being armies, to police and maintain order (or something very similar, apologies for inaccuracies). This is even more spot on with reference to a prolonged situation, and and the two populations being distinct. There is no conceivable way for an army to maintain such an occupation and not have its moral code degraded over time. Being a conscript army, there is no way for this to have long term effects on society as a whole.

There is no way to fight terrorism wearing silk gloves, but there is also a fine line separating fighting something and turning into a version of it. When incidents as described in the OP are coupled with the can-do-no-wrong attitude (or its counterpart it's-all-their-fault) the slippery slope is a step nearer.

Of course your observations are valid, in an ideal world. I guess a three year wait for justice and then on lesser charges would fit the bill.

http://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/In-rare-move-state-to-indict-former-IDF-soldiers-in-killing-of-Palestinian-minor-432256

Still we know had the roles been reversed the guilty if incarcerated would be on a generous monthly allowance paid by the Palestinian authority. Should a transgressor achieve martyrdom there would be the posthumous naming of a street or something similar in their honor.

I would conclude by observing things can go too far in the other direction as is the case with Sweden whitewashing the criminality of third world migrants, though perhaps over time there is a revision to the mean as the Swedes have just divulged the ethnicity of three convicted rapists, almost unheard of for them.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Steely Dan

[alanrchase]

The camera usually lies when it comes from a Palestinian source, but here's a pro-forma answer for any Israel thread. Should an Israeli be convicted of wrongdoing I condemn their actions and trust they will be punished in accordance with the law, however I will wait for judicial process before making further comment. I haven't had chance to look at the vehicle clip yet, but have seen a similar one presented as An Israeli running over a Palestinian which you could even see from the video was a lie. There is usually more than a little projection in these videos considering the number of instances of Palestinian terrorists running over Israelis, though seldom if ever a thread discussing such incidents.

Some would say that transgressions by Israelis, IDF and illegal settlers alike, are not thoroughly investigated. And furthermore, that the penalties imposed in cases of such wrongdoing by Israelis are relatively lightweight compared with those involving Palestinian offenders. Even wholesale denial of evidence presented by Palestinians (and I agree that there is a significant amount of distortion), cannot account for the minimal level of enforcement with regard to Israelis in the West Bank.

Not that far back, during one of Thailand's own political troubled periods, another poster (wandasloan, I think) made a good comment about armies not being fit, by virtue of being armies, to police and maintain order (or something very similar, apologies for inaccuracies). This is even more spot on with reference to a prolonged situation, and and the two populations being distinct. There is no conceivable way for an army to maintain such an occupation and not have its moral code degraded over time. Being a conscript army, there is no way for this to have long term effects on society as a whole.

There is no way to fight terrorism wearing silk gloves, but there is also a fine line separating fighting something and turning into a version of it. When incidents as described in the OP are coupled with the can-do-no-wrong attitude (or its counterpart it's-all-their-fault) the slippery slope is a step nearer.

Of course your observations are valid, in an ideal world. I guess a three year wait for justice and then on lesser charges would fit the bill.

http://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/In-rare-move-state-to-indict-former-IDF-soldiers-in-killing-of-Palestinian-minor-432256

Still we know had the roles been reversed the guilty if incarcerated would be on a generous monthly allowance paid by the Palestinian authority. Should a transgressor achieve martyrdom there would be the posthumous naming of a street or something similar in their honor.

I would conclude by observing things can go too far in the other direction as is the case with Sweden whitewashing the criminality of third world migrants, though perhaps over time there is a revision to the mean as the Swedes have just divulged the ethnicity of three convicted rapists, almost unheard of for them.

If you believe your own post you are the most intelligent person in the world.

[Morch]

Palestinians lived in the area, called Palestine, for generations, first under Ottoman rule then British. A proportion of those Palestinians were Jewish; most were not.

The state of Israel was established in part of Palestine and now the majority of the population of Israel are Jewish second or third generation immigrants.

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of February 2013, of Israel's 8 million people, 75.4% were Jews of any background.^%5B27%5D Among them, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim (Jewish immigrants to Israel)—22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.^%5B28%5D Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Europe, while around the same number are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia. Over two hundred thousand are, or are descended from, Ethiopian and Indian Jews.^%5B29%5D

(My emphasis)

(Source)

Since the state of Israel came into existence, various Israeli governments have occupied land outside their original borders and displaced the Arab Palestinians whose families lived on that land for generations.

Is it any wonder that those people forced from their homes have an antipathy towards the Israeli government and the IDF?

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

But so does Palestine. It matters not that people like Jingthing deny that right; their opinion expressed on an internet forum will change nothing in the real world.

But it does matter that the Israeli government also deny that right. Until the Israeli government recognises the right of the Palestinian state to exist, and acts on that recognition, there will never be peace.

Israel fought to establish itself, has fought since then to defend itself. Who can blame the Palestinians for doing the same?

Note to Jingthing and others:-

Despite your numerous allegations, being against the policies of the Israeli government does not mean a person is against the existence of the state of Israel. Nor does it mean a person is anti Semitic.

I don't have much issues with people fighting for their freedom. The Palestinian narrative notwithstanding, most of their so-called freedom fighting amounts to acts of terrorism. This is not a contemporary specific statement, but a general one. Over and above the moral issues involved, it is obviously essentially futile. Nothing substantial was gained, and the price paid as a society, in terms of casualties, political loses and prevalent lawlessness, is harsh.

The usual nonsense about Hamas leaders recognizing Israel's right to exist is the same old. I fully expect that this could not be demonstrated, other than by links to specific out of context reference, while ignoring the mountains of statements to the contrary. Hard to understand the insistence of some on this point, when a couple of hours browsing Hamas media shows no sign of this.

JT denies the Palestinian's right to have their own state? Far as I can tell he's pretty consistent in claiming the opposite. That the difficulties inherent in such an undertaking are acknowledged does not amount to denial.

Not all criticism of Israeli government, policies and actions denotes antisemitism or a wish to see the destruction of Israel. In the same way, denying that sentiment exists and that it is quite evident with certain posters, is preposterous. Antisemitism cannot be used as an general argument against any instance of such criticism, but then, not every criticism is free of said bigotry.

[dexterm]

The Palestinians need to accept that they have been overtaken by a bigger sweep of history than they can comprehend and that they have really lost this battle. Of course, they won't accept that because of their pride, which they will take to their graves. This damanged pride is at the root of the conflict and has globalised like a cancer into an anti-western jihad that has unsettled the whole world.

Israel needs to understand this. Their pride is involved too - the whole of Palestine is so important to them that they are apparently content to keep up this war of attrition, even if it takes centuries. But being the effective victors, they have more pride to expend - they can better afford to be be magnanimous and conciliatory, therefore it's up to them to put an end to this mess. They should be the first to put down their arms. For the sake of world peace, Israel should unconditionally accept a Palestinian state.

I am available for the position of Secretary-General of the UN.

I agree with the conclusion to your post but I think it is much more than pride that motivates Palestinians. It is the utter degradation of their daily lives under occupation at the hands of the IDF and fanatical Israeli colonists. Palestinians may lose many of the the battles but they are winning the war for peace.

I am amazed that Israel with all its technological expertise cannot work it out that that the goalposts have moved. They can't get away with the atrocities they committed in 48 and 67. The whole world is watching this time via the social media as in the viral OP.

They don't need more Pyrrhic victories such as in the OP shooting dead in cold blood a Palestinian lying injured harmless, or pumping several shots into a 17 year old girl who couldn't understand Hebrew and would have had to leap a metal barrier in her burqa to attack an IDF soldier who had a machine gun pointed at her and trigger happily fired.

More such victories as this on the internet "will utterly undo [israel]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

Edited November 6, 2015 by dexterm

[Morch]

As a tourist driving a rented car I was shot at by two 8 year young Palestinians with imaginary guns in a village near Betlehem. tatatatataratata.

There is no hope for these people.

You probably had Israeli number plates, identifying you as an illegal Zionist colonist in occupied territory.

Oh yeah...because all vehicles in the West Bank bearing Israeli number plates belong to illegal settlers, right?

One got to wonder how Israeli Arabs feel when their vehicles get stoned by Palestinians. Or if left wing and peace activists sympathize to the same degree when their windshield gets smashed.

Wouldn't be overly surprised if this blanket justification of violence would be followed by claims to be an advocate of non-violent resistance .

[dexterm]

As a tourist driving a rented car I was shot at by two 8 year young Palestinians with imaginary guns in a village near Betlehem. tatatatataratata.

There is no hope for these people.

You probably had Israeli number plates, identifying you as an illegal Zionist colonist in occupied territory.

Oh yeah...because all vehicles in the West Bank bearing Israeli number plates belong to illegal settlers, right?

One got to wonder how Israeli Arabs feel when their vehicles get stoned by Palestinians. Or if left wing and peace activists sympathize to the same degree when their windshield gets smashed.

Wouldn't be overly surprised if this blanket justification of violence would be followed by claims to be an advocate of non-violent resistance .

Well, you tell me why his vehicle was chosen for attention. Do illegal European looking Israeli colonists [because that's what they are] or tourists supporting the Israeli economy by hiring an Israel vehicle drive with Palestinian number plates? If you are just going to Bethlehem a few miles outside Jerusalem , join a tour bus. Quite understandable that if you are travelling further i.e an illegal Israeli colonist, you would be driving a vehicle with Israeli number plates.

Edited November 6, 2015 by dexterm

[Morch]

Jingthing constantly states that Israel has a right to exist. He is right; it does. Even the leaders of Hamas now recognise that.

No they don't. Not as group and not officially. One or two - out of many - have said they are willing to for political considerations. In fact, they have never renounced their charter, which calls for the genocide of Jews in general - not just Israelis - and the destruction of the country.

Yes, they do; they accept that Israel has a right to exists and have stated many times that they are willing to negotiate with the Israeli government.

As has been shown many, many times in similar topics.

Of course, there are members and supporters of Hamas who do not agree with this change of stance.

Just as their are people on the Israeli side who refuse to acknowledge it and refuse to negotiate at all with the Palestinians in any way, shape or form. The problem being that among this group is the Israeli government!

History has taught us that when a colonial power refuses to talk to those who oppose it, nothing is gained except a larger pile of dead bodies on both sides. It is only when the two sides sit down and talk that a peaceful solution has been found.

Hamas have stated many times that they are willing to talk to the Israeli government; the ball is firmly in Netanyahu's court.

Not everyone who is against Israel is anti-Semitic, but a huge percentage are. My guess is that practically every obsessive Israel-hater is a hater of Jews first, even though they substitute the word, "Zionists" for "Jews" and deny the obvious.

A feeble excuse for refusing to deal with the realities. Very few, if indeed any, of those who are against the Israeli government's policies and the IDF's actions over Palestine is an "obsessive Israel hater!"

Also somewhat hypocritical as it comes from a person who tries to justify his irrational hatred of Islam and Muslims at every opportunity!

Very few of us here, if any, blame Judaism and Jews, or even all Israelis, for the actions of the Israeli government.

You, and others, regularly blame Islam and Muslims for the actions of ISIS; even though the majority of those fighting ISIS, and dying in that fight, are Muslim!

Some even claim that all Muslims are secret supporters of Jihadism and are awaiting the call to rise up and impose strict Sharia rule on us all!

Irrational Islamaphobia is far more prevalent in this forum than anti Semitism.

Not that I agree with or will ever defend either.

We've been through this silly argument before, and my guess is that the current one will end with another sulky withdrawal from the topic.

Hamas does not officially recognize Israel's right to exist, nor is Hamas willing to directly negotiate with an Israeli government.

Rather than being "shown many, many times in similar topics", this was, more accurately, claimed many, many times in similar topics. Can't recall a single instance where a direct support for the above statements was not demonstrated to be anchored in circumstantial constraints, burdened with impossible conditions or phrased in very ambiguous terms. The obvious selective disregard for the context in which Hamas operates can be attributed either to ignorance or to wishful thinking. Proclaiming an imaginary change of stance does not make it a reality.

While the current Israeli government can certainly be counted among the naysayers, this by no means makes the Palestinian leadership (divided as it is) all for peace. Never mind Hamas, the next generation of Fatah leaders (once the dust settles over Abbas's inheritance wars) does not seem overly promising as far as being pro-peace goes. The insistence that this two-sided (or rather three-sided, by now) conflict can only be solved by one side is absurd.