Palestinians say amateur video backs claims of Israeli abuse

[Morch]

As a tourist driving a rented car I was shot at by two 8 year young Palestinians with imaginary guns in a village near Betlehem. tatatatataratata.

There is no hope for these people.

You probably had Israeli number plates, identifying you as an illegal Zionist colonist in occupied territory.

Oh yeah...because all vehicles in the West Bank bearing Israeli number plates belong to illegal settlers, right?

One got to wonder how Israeli Arabs feel when their vehicles get stoned by Palestinians. Or if left wing and peace activists sympathize to the same degree when their windshield gets smashed.

Wouldn't be overly surprised if this blanket justification of violence would be followed by claims to be an advocate of non-violent resistance .

Well, you tell me why his vehicle was chosen for attention. Do illegal European looking Israeli colonists [because that's what they are] or tourists supporting the Israeli economy by hiring an Israel vehicle drive with Palestinian number plates? If you are just going to Bethlehem a few miles outside Jerusalem , join a tour bus. Quite understandable that if you are travelling further i.e an illegal Israeli colonist, you would be driving a vehicle with Israeli number plates.

I have no idea what the poster looks like. I have no idea what license registration plates his vehicle had.

You started with one assumption and you're heaping a bunch more.

To get this straight, a tourist's choice of vehicle justifies violence? Seems like BDS just took it up a notch. Do tell about your preference for non-violence.

[Morch]

Well, Israel better figure out a way of making their enemies their friends, since they are bound to be geograpgical neighbors for eternity.

The scenes in the OP footage certainly aint the way to win any hearts and minds.

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Now if we could only find a way to merge these two non-contradictory statements....

[tartempion]

As a tourist driving a rented car I was shot at by two 8 year young Palestinians with imaginary guns in a village near Betlehem. tatatatataratata.

There is no hope for these people.

You probably had Israeli number plates, identifying you as an illegal Zionist colonist in occupied territory.

Oh yeah...because all vehicles in the West Bank bearing Israeli number plates belong to illegal settlers, right?

One got to wonder how Israeli Arabs feel when their vehicles get stoned by Palestinians. Or if left wing and peace activists sympathize to the same degree when their windshield gets smashed.

Wouldn't be overly surprised if this blanket justification of violence would be followed by claims to be an advocate of non-violent resistance .

Well, you tell me why his vehicle was chosen for attention. Do illegal European looking Israeli colonists [because that's what they are] or tourists supporting the Israeli economy by hiring an Israel vehicle drive with Palestinian number plates? If you are just going to Bethlehem a few miles outside Jerusalem , join a tour bus. Quite understandable that if you are travelling further i.e an illegal Israeli colonist, you would be driving a vehicle with Israeli number plates.

Chosen for attention by two 8 year young kids full of hatred for anything non-Palestinian.

I traveled a few times to Israel as a tourist (bird watching paradise), rode the roads from Tel Aviv to Mount Heron, the Golan looking at that flattened Syrian town, the Negev desert and Eilat, slept in kibbutz and guest houses. I have encountered unfriendly extremist Jews, but these were sheep as compared to Arabs/Palestinians I have encountered in their territories. I spare you the stories, they are not worth the idiotic replies on this forum.

[Morch]

The Palestinians better figure it out. Things keep improving for Israel. The Palestinians are stuck in a joyless purgatory of their own making and things will never improve until they make peace.

Israelis are in the same boat...

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Thriving how? Reading Israeli media headlines, those not dealing with the security situation are worries about a host of economic, education, social and infrastructure failures. The technology boasted didn't help much with many cities recently doing a Bangkok-during-flood imitation, the government applying a very dodgy policy vs. Israel's gas reserves and certain sectors milking public funds for all they can get. And before waving OECD membership, better check where is Israel located on various parameters. Denying that maintaining an ongoing occupation comes at a premium (even if disregarding the direct costs) is ignoring reality.

The current violence, by itself, is not an existential or even a major threat to Israel. The point is that it is just a symptom.

The whole point of view that this balance could be maintained for ever, is based on the illusion that the parameters of conflict would stay fixed forever. Obviously, this is not a serious proposition.

[Morch]

Ah, so the 'terrorism' is ineffectual. Why worry about it then and retaliate with great force time and time again?

Terrorism is ineffectual if kept at bay. Palestinian terrorism is also ineffectual inasmuch as it does not serve the best interests of their national aspirations. The only value it represents comes from resulting (ok, lets pretend we did the chicken and egg bit) Israeli actions and their portrayal in the media. Got to wonder if this is indeed the best or only recourse they have to promote their goals.

[stevenl]

Ah, so the 'terrorism' is ineffectual. Why worry about it then and retaliate with great force time and time again?

Terrorism is ineffectual if kept at bay. Palestinian terrorism is also ineffectual inasmuch as it does not serve the best interests of their national aspirations. The only value it represents comes from resulting (ok, lets pretend we did the chicken and egg bit) Israeli actions and their portrayal in the media. Got to wonder if this is indeed the best or only recourse they have to promote their goals.

Your assertion is it is terrorism. With that assertion you have made your choice.

[Morch]

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Would like to hear the version of an average Israeli who really lives in Israel and/or Palestine.

The fabrication of anyone living in LOS is just another subjective projection...

Whereas posts conforming to your own point of view are not "fabrications" and "subjective projection"?

Is there such a thing as an "average Israeli"? An "average Thai"? etc...

[Morch]

Ah, so the 'terrorism' is ineffectual. Why worry about it then and retaliate with great force time and time again?

Terrorism is ineffectual if kept at bay. Palestinian terrorism is also ineffectual inasmuch as it does not serve the best interests of their national aspirations. The only value it represents comes from resulting (ok, lets pretend we did the chicken and egg bit) Israeli actions and their portrayal in the media. Got to wonder if this is indeed the best or only recourse they have to promote their goals.

Your assertion is it is terrorism. With that assertion you have made your choice.

My choice is to (roughly) differentiate between two kinds of violence.

Actions taken against armed forces, security personnel and government facilities - could be construed as legitimate (to an extent, there got to be certain limits there as well) and as having a purpose related to self-determination. This is even more so when applied within the relevant territory one is fighting for. Attacks on civilian population, often involving indiscriminate violence is largely views as illegitimate (again, a general point of view, rather than case specific).

While both could be termed terrorism, I think that the common use of the term is more closely associated with the latter.

Terrorism directed against Israeli civilians, especially within the 1967 borders and globally tends to cause a harsher response from the Israeli public. Violence directed at the military is not condoned in the least, but does not elicit exactly the same effect. Perceptions of violence against illegal settlers in the West Bank could vary according to political views.

[Morch]

They are violent Islamic terrorists. Step on their heads until they stop attacking innocent civilians.

How about when they are not Islamic terrorists? That is belonging to a other Palestinian organizations or simply doing their own thing.

How about when they attack soldiers?

Would the same apply to Jewish terrorists?

[Morch]

I just hope that as in the OP they capture the images of Israelis stomping on the heads, and they go viral. The world will judge exactly how civilized Israelis are.

Obviously the main attention is given to scoring a media point against Israel. Less in evidence is a concern for the welfare of the Palestinians.

About sums the difference between being pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli.

[Morch]

The Israelis have been stepping on their heads since the Palestinians first started attacking them about a hundred years ago. That is why Israel is a thriving country and Palestine is nothing but a delusional dream.

The secret for Israel's supposed "thriving" is stepping on Palestinian heads? "Discussion" just got surreal.

[Morch]

The camera usually lies when it comes from a Palestinian source, but here's a pro-forma answer for any Israel thread. Should an Israeli be convicted of wrongdoing I condemn their actions and trust they will be punished in accordance with the law, however I will wait for judicial process before making further comment. I haven't had chance to look at the vehicle clip yet, but have seen a similar one presented as An Israeli running over a Palestinian which you could even see from the video was a lie. There is usually more than a little projection in these videos considering the number of instances of Palestinian terrorists running over Israelis, though seldom if ever a thread discussing such incidents.

Some would say that transgressions by Israelis, IDF and illegal settlers alike, are not thoroughly investigated. And furthermore, that the penalties imposed in cases of such wrongdoing by Israelis are relatively lightweight compared with those involving Palestinian offenders. Even wholesale denial of evidence presented by Palestinians (and I agree that there is a significant amount of distortion), cannot account for the minimal level of enforcement with regard to Israelis in the West Bank.

Not that far back, during one of Thailand's own political troubled periods, another poster (wandasloan, I think) made a good comment about armies not being fit, by virtue of being armies, to police and maintain order (or something very similar, apologies for inaccuracies). This is even more spot on with reference to a prolonged situation, and and the two populations being distinct. There is no conceivable way for an army to maintain such an occupation and not have its moral code degraded over time. Being a conscript army, there is no way for this to have long term effects on society as a whole.

There is no way to fight terrorism wearing silk gloves, but there is also a fine line separating fighting something and turning into a version of it. When incidents as described in the OP are coupled with the can-do-no-wrong attitude (or its counterpart it's-all-their-fault) the slippery slope is a step nearer.

Of course your observations are valid, in an ideal world. I guess a three year wait for justice and then on lesser charges would fit the bill.

http://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/In-rare-move-state-to-indict-former-IDF-soldiers-in-killing-of-Palestinian-minor-432256

Still we know had the roles been reversed the guilty if incarcerated would be on a generous monthly allowance paid by the Palestinian authority. Should a transgressor achieve martyrdom there would be the posthumous naming of a street or something similar in their honor.

I would conclude by observing things can go too far in the other direction as is the case with Sweden whitewashing the criminality of third world migrants, though perhaps over time there is a revision to the mean as the Swedes have just divulged the ethnicity of three convicted rapists, almost unheard of for them.

My observations were not made with a prefect world in mind, but with the current reality.

As said, fighting terrorism cannot be achieved by playing nice. There is a certain distance between playing nice and turning into Mr. Ugly, though. There was no suggestion that Israel is on one end of the scale or that it should move to the other. What was expressed is a recognition that the ongoing occupation carries a toll on Israel's character as a nation. There are ample reasons for the current situation being what it is, and more than enough explanations as to why things are not likely to be altered anytime soon. This does not change the the cost of the occupation, but merely puts them in perspective with other costs - such as security consideration. The question is more to do with how one sees the bottom line, and which costs factor more heavily in the long term.

The knowledge that the Palestinians can be worse with regard to certain moral choices is not much of consolation. Here again, there is this whole range between aspiring to the ideals of Western democracy and setting the bar as low as the neighborhood code of ethics.

[dexterm]

I just hope that as in the OP they capture the images of Israelis stomping on the heads, and they go viral. The world will judge exactly how civilized Israelis are.

Obviously the main attention is given to scoring a media point against Israel. Less in evidence is a concern for the welfare of the Palestinians.

About sums the difference between being pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli.

Not just scoring cheap shot media points...not very cheap if you were the Palestinian getting shot in cold blooded murder. It enables quite graphically as in the OP viewers to see exactly how the IDF actually operates. A picture is worth a thousand words. Who knows how many people have now been made more aware through a single viewing about how their tax dollars and the US annual 3 $billion mainly arms subsidy to Israel are really being used.

I hope the new viewers are in their thousands, and that that eventually translates into votes.

[Morch]

I agree with the conclusion to your post but I think it is much more than pride that motivates Palestinians. It is the utter degradation of their daily lives under occupation at the hands of the IDF and fanatical Israeli colonists. Palestinians may lose many of the the battles but they are winning the war for peace.

I am amazed that Israel with all its technological expertise cannot work it out that that the goalposts have moved. They can't get away with the atrocities they committed in 48 and 67. The whole world is watching this time via the social media as in the viral OP.

They don't need more Pyrrhic victories such as in the OP shooting dead in cold blood a Palestinian lying injured harmless, or pumping several shots into a 17 year old girl who couldn't understand Hebrew and would have had to leap a metal barrier in her burqa to attack an IDF soldier who had a machine gun pointed at her and trigger happily fired.

More such victories as this on the internet "will utterly undo [israel]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

The Palestinians that stab Israelis do it for peace? Rockets are launched to celebrate peace? Suicide bombers think of Gandhi when they pull the switch?

Total degradation of their daily life, eh? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/867995-palestinians-say-amateur-video-backs-claims-of-israeli-abuse/?p=10040510

What amazes me is the readiness of keyboard warriors for advocate sacrifices of others, who are actually involved. And this while spinning cynical cliches about winning the "war for peace".

[Morch]

I just hope that as in the OP they capture the images of Israelis stomping on the heads, and they go viral. The world will judge exactly how civilized Israelis are.

Obviously the main attention is given to scoring a media point against Israel. Less in evidence is a concern for the welfare of the Palestinians.

About sums the difference between being pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli.

Not just scoring cheap shot media points...not very cheap if you were the Palestinian getting shot in cold blooded murder. It enables quite graphically as in the OP viewers to see exactly how the IDF actually operates. A picture is worth a thousand words. Who knows how many people have now been made more aware through a single viewing about how their tax dollars and the US annual 3 $billion mainly arms subsidy to Israel are really being used.

I hope the new viewers are in their thousands, and that that eventually translates into votes.

Spin away.

I never said anything about "cheap". The willingness for others to sacrifice themselves so that it could be capitalized upon in the media, was your own. Smells like a keyboard warrior's snuff obsession.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Morch

[dexterm]

I just hope that as in the OP they capture the images of Israelis stomping on the heads, and they go viral. The world will judge exactly how civilized Israelis are.

Obviously the main attention is given to scoring a media point against Israel. Less in evidence is a concern for the welfare of the Palestinians.

About sums the difference between being pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli.

Not just scoring cheap shot media points...not very cheap if you were the Palestinian getting shot in cold blooded murder. It enables quite graphically as in the OP viewers to see exactly how the IDF actually operates. A picture is worth a thousand words. Who knows how many people have now been made more aware through a single viewing about how their tax dollars and the US annual 3 $billion mainly arms subsidy to Israel are really being used.

I hope the new viewers are in their thousands, and that that eventually translates into votes.

Spin away.

I never said anything about "cheap". The willingness for others to sacrifice themselves so that it could be capitalized upon in the media, was your own. Smells like a keyboard warrior's snuff obsession.

What is implicit in the language you used "scoring a media point"?

The rest of your words "The willingness for others to sacrifice themselves so that it could be capitalized upon in the media" are your fantasy entirely.

The cold blooded murder of the Palestinian in the OP is very real I would imagine to his loved ones and the girl he was engaged to.

Edited November 6, 2015 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

The Israelis have been stepping on their heads since the Palestinians first started attacking them about a hundred years ago. That is why Israel is a thriving country and Palestine is nothing but a delusional dream.

The secret for Israel's supposed "thriving" is stepping on Palestinian heads? "Discussion" just got surreal.

I'm sure you know by now about the Thaivisa Israel-Palestinian threads.

Our Brand Is Surreal!

[dexterm]

I agree with the conclusion to your post but I think it is much more than pride that motivates Palestinians. It is the utter degradation of their daily lives under occupation at the hands of the IDF and fanatical Israeli colonists. Palestinians may lose many of the the battles but they are winning the war for peace.

I am amazed that Israel with all its technological expertise cannot work it out that that the goalposts have moved. They can't get away with the atrocities they committed in 48 and 67. The whole world is watching this time via the social media as in the viral OP.

They don't need more Pyrrhic victories such as in the OP shooting dead in cold blood a Palestinian lying injured harmless, or pumping several shots into a 17 year old girl who couldn't understand Hebrew and would have had to leap a metal barrier in her burqa to attack an IDF soldier who had a machine gun pointed at her and trigger happily fired.

More such victories as this on the internet "will utterly undo [israel]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

The Palestinians that stab Israelis do it for peace? Rockets are launched to celebrate peace? Suicide bombers think of Gandhi when they pull the switch?

Total degradation of their daily life, eh? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/867995-palestinians-say-amateur-video-backs-claims-of-israeli-abuse/?p=10040510

What amazes me is the readiness of keyboard warriors for advocate sacrifices of others, who are actually involved. And this while spinning cynical cliches about winning the "war for peace".

I think they do it out of frustration and the only form of resistance they have.

I don't advocate the sacrifices of others at all. I wish the IDF were sleeping peacefully tonight in their barracks on the other side of the 67 line, and the Palestinian resisters of occupation were slumbering likewise in their homes on the West Bank. But no doubt the invading/occupying IDF will be out again tomorrow, doing what they do best, as amply demonstrated in the OP.

[vogie]

The Palestinians should be careful not to throw stones in glass houses, every day brings more footage of them behaving like backward savages. Here we have mummy of stabber pulling out a knife during a TV interview. The look of discomfort and embarrassment on the presenters face is priceless.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s&v=aVb2zBByGCA

I'm sure the Palestinians would love to have glass houses but sadly the Zionists have erased them all!

[Jingthing]

The Palestinians should be careful not to throw stones in glass houses, every day brings more footage of them behaving like backward savages. Here we have mummy of stabber pulling out a knife during a TV interview. The look of discomfort and embarrassment on the presenters face is priceless.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s&v=aVb2zBByGCA

I'm sure the Palestinians would love to have glass houses but sadly the Zionists have erased them all!

What is that even supposed to mean?

[dexterm]

The Palestinians should be careful not to throw stones in glass houses, every day brings more footage of them behaving like backward savages. Here we have mummy of stabber pulling out a knife during a TV interview. The look of discomfort and embarrassment on the presenters face is priceless.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s&v=aVb2zBByGCA

I'm sure the Palestinians would love to have glass houses but sadly the Zionists have erased them all!

What is that even supposed to mean?

I think he is referring to this myth "The Gaza greenhouse effect"

http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/gaza-greenhouse-effect.html

Edited November 6, 2015 by dexterm

[Thorgal]

The Palestinians should be careful not to throw stones in glass houses, every day brings more footage of them behaving like backward savages. Here we have mummy of stabber pulling out a knife during a TV interview. The look of discomfort and embarrassment on the presenters face is priceless.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&t=1m23s&v=aVb2zBByGCA

I'm sure the Palestinians would love to have glass houses but sadly the Zionists have erased them all!

What is that even supposed to mean?

I understand your question :

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/people_who_live_in_glass_houses_shouldn%27t_throw_stones

[Thorgal]

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Would like to hear the version of an average Israeli who really lives in Israel and/or Palestine.

The fabrication of anyone living in LOS is just another subjective projection...

Whereas posts conforming to your own point of view are not "fabrications" and "subjective projection"?

Is there such a thing as an "average Israeli"? An "average Thai"? etc...

I can explain the averages of citizens in a sociological context, but you won't understand. Perhaps you can complain on the following thread on TV :

'Average Thai consumes 26 teaspoons of sugar per day...'

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2015/11/04/average-thai-consumes-26-teaspoons-sugar-day-officials

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/868243-average-thai-consumes-26-teaspoons-of-sugar-per-day-officials/

Your subjective projection was too fabricated this time...

Edited November 7, 2015 by Thorgal

[7by7]

How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Why Isn’t Israel Ever Asked To Recognize Palestine’s “Right To Exist”?

[Morch]

Obviously the main attention is given to scoring a media point against Israel. Less in evidence is a concern for the welfare of the Palestinians.

About sums the difference between being pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli.

Not just scoring cheap shot media points...not very cheap if you were the Palestinian getting shot in cold blooded murder. It enables quite graphically as in the OP viewers to see exactly how the IDF actually operates. A picture is worth a thousand words. Who knows how many people have now been made more aware through a single viewing about how their tax dollars and the US annual 3 $billion mainly arms subsidy to Israel are really being used.

I hope the new viewers are in their thousands, and that that eventually translates into votes.

Spin away.

I never said anything about "cheap". The willingness for others to sacrifice themselves so that it could be capitalized upon in the media, was your own. Smells like a keyboard warrior's snuff obsession.

What is implicit in the language you used "scoring a media point"?

The rest of your words "The willingness for others to sacrifice themselves so that it could be capitalized upon in the media" are your fantasy entirely.

The cold blooded murder of the Palestinian in the OP is very real I would imagine to his loved ones and the girl he was engaged to.

Nothing implicit, I was simply describing the content of your comments, Thanks for making the point.

For reference: "I just hope that as in the OP they capture the images of Israelis stomping on the heads, and they go viral. The world will judge exactly how civilized Israelis are."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/867995-palestinians-say-amateur-video-backs-claims-of-israeli-abuse/?p=10046975

[Morch]

I agree with the conclusion to your post but I think it is much more than pride that motivates Palestinians. It is the utter degradation of their daily lives under occupation at the hands of the IDF and fanatical Israeli colonists. Palestinians may lose many of the the battles but they are winning the war for peace.

I am amazed that Israel with all its technological expertise cannot work it out that that the goalposts have moved. They can't get away with the atrocities they committed in 48 and 67. The whole world is watching this time via the social media as in the viral OP.

They don't need more Pyrrhic victories such as in the OP shooting dead in cold blood a Palestinian lying injured harmless, or pumping several shots into a 17 year old girl who couldn't understand Hebrew and would have had to leap a metal barrier in her burqa to attack an IDF soldier who had a machine gun pointed at her and trigger happily fired.

More such victories as this on the internet "will utterly undo [israel]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

The Palestinians that stab Israelis do it for peace? Rockets are launched to celebrate peace? Suicide bombers think of Gandhi when they pull the switch?

Total degradation of their daily life, eh? http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/867995-palestinians-say-amateur-video-backs-claims-of-israeli-abuse/?p=10040510

What amazes me is the readiness of keyboard warriors for advocate sacrifices of others, who are actually involved. And this while spinning cynical cliches about winning the "war for peace".

I think they do it out of frustration and the only form of resistance they have.

I don't advocate the sacrifices of others at all. I wish the IDF were sleeping peacefully tonight in their barracks on the other side of the 67 line, and the Palestinian resisters of occupation were slumbering likewise in their homes on the West Bank. But no doubt the invading/occupying IDF will be out again tomorrow, doing what they do best, as amply demonstrated in the OP.

Violence is the only form of resistance available? Really? But how does that fit with your claims of supporting non-violent resistance?

How does carrying attacks on Israeli civilians within the 1967 lines go with this "argument"?

[Morch]

No. They aren't. They live in a country that is thriving because of new technology and they mostly have a middle-class lifestyle that us the envy of the countries surrounding them. Terrorism is an irritant, but they have figured out how to make it a relatively minor one. Very few Israelis are killed by the Palestinian's inept terrorist attacks.

Palestinian terrorists are dying in droves, with no success and little material wealth. They are paying the price for their own obstinacy.

Would like to hear the version of an average Israeli who really lives in Israel and/or Palestine.

The fabrication of anyone living in LOS is just another subjective projection...

Whereas posts conforming to your own point of view are not "fabrications" and "subjective projection"?

Is there such a thing as an "average Israeli"? An "average Thai"? etc...

I can explain the averages of citizens in a sociological context, but you won't understand. Perhaps you can complain on the following thread on TV :

'Average Thai consumes 26 teaspoons of sugar per day...'

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2015/11/04/average-thai-consumes-26-teaspoons-sugar-day-officials

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/868243-average-thai-consumes-26-teaspoons-of-sugar-per-day-officials/

Your subjective projection was too fabricated this time...

Because analysis of public opinion trends regarding current political and economical issues is exactly like calculating the average sugar consumption...?

Even the example cited is inane, as the article fails to qualify subject categories within the survey.

Comments on this topic going from surreal to way-out-there.

[Morch]

How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Why Isn’t Israel Ever Asked To Recognize Palestine’s “Right To Exist”?

Was that supposed to be one of them "shown many, many times in similar topics" instances?

Hamas is not mentioned in the first column, and very briefly on the second.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/867995-palestinians-say-amateur-video-backs-claims-of-israeli-abuse/?p=10048783

[7by7]

From May 2006: Hamas Officials Already Recognize Israel's Right to Exist, Apparently

It looks like the topelected officials in the Palestinian Hamas party are signaling that they accept Israel's right to exist. Last week the highest-ranking Hamas leader, Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, told Israel's most prestigious newspaper, Ha'aretz: "If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, peace will prevail and we will implement a cease-fire [hudna] for many years."

A hudna is more than just a "cease-fire." An erudite article in the Encyclopedia of Islam tells us that "hudna in Islamic law is equivalent to 'international treaty' in modern terminology. Its object is to suspend the legal effects of hostilities and to provide the prerequisite conditions of peace between Muslims and non-Muslims, without the latter's territory becoming part of dar al-Islam.'"

From November 2014: Hamas political leader to Amanpour on Israel's right to exist: "I need recognition, not the Israelis"

AMANPOUR: You say you would prefer the route that did not cause so much violence, so much death. And yet, you say that you would accept a two-state solution, but that you will not recognize Israel's right to exist. Is that still the case?

MESHAAL (through translator): First of all, the offer must come from the attacker, from Israel, which has the arsenal, not from the victim. Second, I say to you from 20 years ago and more, the Palestinians and Arabs are offering peace. But peace is destroying peace through aggression and war and killing.

This idea (ph), this touch failed experiences, we have two options. No other. Either there's an international will, led by the U.S. and Europe and the international community and force Israel to go through the way of peace and a Palestinian state, according to the border of 1967 with the right to return. And this is something we have agreed upon as Palestinians, as a common program.

But if Israel can continue to refuse this, either the - either we force them or resist to - resort to resistance. I accept a state of the 1967. How can I accept Israel? They have occupied my land. I need recognition, not the Israelis. This is a reversed question.

Dodging the issue?

I don't think so; he clearly states that he accepts the existence of the state of Israel within it's 1967 borders; but not within the occupied territories.

At this point people usually bring up the Hamas charter; but have you read Likud's?

The Hateful Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State

......from the Likud Platform of 1999:

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.........

Some defenders of Israel become indignant at the mention of these realities as scurrilous and spurious because the Likud platform quoted above is just an “old” statement of principles not reflective of the Party’s actions in power. But by that logic, the Hamas Charter, written over 25 years ago, cannot be said to be the sole controlling document of that organization, since much more recent statements and actions by its leadership have, at least some times, included an expressed willingness to pursue a long-term agreement with Israel. Furthermore, Hamas also agreed to join the Palestinian Authority in a unity government that accepts all previous PA agreements with Israel.

Finally, recommended reading: hopefully it will give people some food for thought.
Two Views:
Acknowledging Israel’s “Right to Exist” A Moral Judgment By John V. Whitbeck
The Trap of Recognizing Israel By Jonathan Cook

Edited November 8, 2015 by 7by7

[Ulysses G.]

Why do you keep repeating the same discredited nonsense?

This particular leader you quote did/does NOT recognize Israel. He says he WOULD under certain conditions. However, many other Hamas leaders have said otherwise. His personal musings mean pretty much nothing.

The Likud Charter does NOT call for "the destruction of the Palestine State". How could they? There has never been one. It states that they do not want one to form in the future. After all, who would want a sworn enemy living right next door?

The Hamas Charter calls for genocide against JEWS - not just Israelis- and the destruction of a living, breathing state. Wholesale murder. There is NOTHING in the Likud Charter remotely similar to that. There is NO legitimate comparison between the two documents, no matter how much you try to stretch the truth.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Ulysses G.