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Uk Double Taxation Agreement


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Hi,

I have been wading through the internet for the last few hours and am as clueless as when I started. Can somebody definately tell me whether the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand or not please?

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Yes there is.

But it may or may not apply to you depending on how long you have been out the UK and over what period that has been.

Essentially it works like this:

Your tax is calculated at the UK tax rates against all your income (Income in UK + Income in Thailand).

You can deduct taxes that you have paid in Thailand from your total UK tax bill.

So if on the above basis your UK tax bill should be 10K and you paid 2K in Thailand, your UK tax bill becomes 8K - but you have to prove tax has been paid in Thailand.

This remains true until you have spend one full tax year out of the UK.

A full tax year is counted as April-April.

So if you left the UK in August 2005, the clock starts ticking in April 2006 and all your income in Thailand becomes free of UK tax in April 2007.

All income you receive in the UK will always be liable to UK taxation.

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Hi,

I have been wading through the internet for the last few hours and am as clueless as when I started. Can somebody definately tell me whether the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand or not please?

yes im told by a qualified tax acountant Iy have paid for advice go see one pay 1000 baht and

sleep easy pm me if you get a different answer

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How does liability to tax work if you move funds to the Channel Islands or Isle of Man? To which country do you pay tax - presumably you can get interest for example on a deposit paid gross? And what if one is non domiciled in England?

Is there any sense in getting tax advice in Thailand? Or does it make only sense to get it from an England-based accountant?

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Yes there is.

But it may or may not apply to you depending on how long you have been out the UK and over what period that has been.

Essentially it works like this:

Your tax is calculated at the UK tax rates against all your income (Income in UK + Income in Thailand).

You can deduct taxes that you have paid in Thailand from your total UK tax bill.

So if on the above basis your UK tax bill should be 10K and you paid 2K in Thailand, your UK tax bill becomes 8K - but you have to prove tax has been paid in Thailand.

This remains true until you have spend one full tax year out of the UK.

A full tax year is counted as April-April.

So if you left the UK in August 2005, the clock starts ticking in April 2006 and all your income in Thailand becomes free of UK tax in April 2007.

All income you receive in the UK will always be liable to UK taxation.

Thanks GuestHouse and All.

One more question if I may.

Is one due to pay Thai tax on interest (already taxed in UK), and State pension when they are transferred here for living expenses?

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so your liable for tax on earnings in your first tax year in Thailand?

Given the example above, you come here, start work in August 2005 - so the clock starts ticking in April 2006 through to April 2007 - if you stay out of the UK until June 2007 - are you still liable for Taxes on the money earnt from August 2005 through to April 2007?

I'm confused :s

Two things in life are certain, death and taxes!

Hey, how come Taxes doesn't get hashed out by the bad word filter???

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Because I work internationally and move regularly I pay an accountant to sort my taxes out. The advice I get time and time again is 'Do Not Open and Offshore Account'.

Let me clarify that. I have an account in the UK and I have an account here in Italy. These are where I have income.

The advice I have is do not open a Channel Island/ IoM account.

The reasons are basically that these offshore accounts are of no practical benefit to the vast majority of savers - If you have millions to keep out of the taxman's grasp, perhaps, but for Joe Ordinary, and for Expats living and working overseas they offer no real advantages.

Offshore Accounts generally have higher account charges, they are taxed at a flat rate of 5%(?), they are visible to the tax man and worst of all they are like a big flashing light to the tax man saying 'Come and Investigate Me'.

Far better to leave your money in the UK.

Firstly and formostly, your savings in the UK are protected by the full extent of UK financial protection laws and they are fully within UK inheritance law (extremely important when you kick the bucket and need to control your estate through your will).

And just because your savings are in the UK does not mean you need pay tax.

Even when you move overseas your allowance remains in place, so there's 4K+ tax free income. You can stick money in ISA savings to avoid tax and there are numerous other options that a UK accountant can advise you on.

I'd say go talk to an Accountant (not a financial advisor) on a Fee Paid Advice basis, not on a Free/Selling you products basis.

What ever you do, DO NOT TAKE MONEY YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOOSE TO THAILAND.

Leave it in the UK where it’s safe.

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Hi,

I have been wading through the internet for the last few hours and am as clueless as when I started. Can somebody definately tell me whether the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand or not please?

Here is the text of the convention between UK and Thailand...

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/fileadmin/down.../english_e.pdf

A bit off topic : people usually see thoses convention like good thing, because they contains the word "to avoid double taxation".... But actually, it's just another way to squeeze you.

Fiscal authorities love to use definitions that are extremely blur... So they can better nail you.

The key point is : where is your fiscal domicile.

We usually think : easy, it's where you live more than 6 month. What a mistake.

Fiscal authorities can look at permanent home, but also "vital interests"... It means if you get into a conflict with them, they would always be able to nail you.

So to summarize : the best way to be in peace, is to add a third country into this glorious scheme to make a... triangle.

-the country where were born : OK keep there a house, that you can rent : fair enough you pay UK taxes for instance (but small amount)

-the country where you live and work : Thailand (you pay the income tax)

-and the very friendly country where you put your money at work (fixed term deposit, Unit trusts, shares etc.), without taxation whatsoever (interest, dividends or capital gain).

Voila. You keep a security option (the house in UK), you have a clear fiscal domicile, and enough (but small) income to justify your living expenses in Thailand. And the real money is off shore. Working for your eyes only.

Life is sweet.

And you can say the F word to UK and Thailand, as for taxation. And you can think with a smile about all thoses morons who hope to get one day a "pension" for their retirement. Based on the shemes in Europe, they will have... nothing because demography (too many pensioners against less and less people working).

And you can laugh at all thoses morons who still trust medicare and other state schemes for their medical insurance. They will pay more and more taxes to finances thoses, and they will get less and less from them.

Yes indeed, life is sweet.

Edited by cclub75
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Full UK Revenue information on residency / double taxation:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/ir20.htm#double

-----------------------------------------------------

Complicated stuff.

I am inclined to agree with previous poster, off-shoring is only worth it for big money. Costs can really eat into tax savings.

I prefer the option of keeping my earnings low by working part-time (in UK) & spending in LoS.

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Full UK Revenue information on residency / double taxation:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/ir20.htm#double

-----------------------------------------------------

Complicated stuff.

I am inclined to agree with previous poster, off-shoring is only worth it for big money. Costs can really eat into tax savings.

I prefer the option of keeping my earnings low by working part-time (in UK) & spending in LoS.

Thanks all. I think I know where I stand as far as the UK is concerned. But please bear with me. Is one due to pay Thai tax on interest (already taxed in UK), and UK State pension when they are transferred here for living expenses?

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Full UK Revenue information on residency / double taxation:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/ir20.htm#double

-----------------------------------------------------

Complicated stuff.

I am inclined to agree with previous poster, off-shoring is only worth it for big money. Costs can really eat into tax savings.

I prefer the option of keeping my earnings low by working part-time (in UK) & spending in LoS.

Thanks all. I think I know where I stand as far as the UK is concerned. But please bear with me. Is one due to pay Thai tax on interest (already taxed in UK), and UK State pension when they are transferred here for living expenses?

No! This would be double taxation. :o Perhaps it should really be called a Non Double Taxation Agreement. :D

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Because I work internationally and move regularly I pay an accountant to sort my taxes out. The advice I get time and time again is 'Do Not Open and Offshore Account'.

Let me clarify that. I have an account in the UK and I have an account here in Italy. These are where I have income.

The advice I have is do not open a Channel Island/ IoM account.

The reasons are basically that these offshore accounts are of no practical benefit to the vast majority of savers - If you have millions to keep out of the taxman's grasp, perhaps, but for Joe Ordinary, and for Expats living and working overseas they offer no real advantages.

Offshore Accounts generally have higher account charges, they are taxed at a flat rate of 5%(?), they are visible to the tax man and worst of all they are like a big flashing light to the tax man saying 'Come and Investigate Me'.

Far better to leave your money in the UK.

Firstly and formostly, your savings in the UK are protected by the full extent of UK financial protection laws and they are fully within UK inheritance law (extremely important when you kick the bucket and need to control your estate through your will).

And just because your savings are in the UK does not mean you need pay tax.

Even when you move overseas your allowance remains in place, so there's 4K+ tax free income. You can stick money in ISA savings to avoid tax and there are numerous other options that a UK accountant can advise you on.

I'd say go talk to an Accountant (not a financial advisor) on a Fee Paid Advice basis, not on a Free/Selling you products basis.

What ever you do, DO NOT TAKE MONEY YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOOSE TO THAILAND.

Leave it in the UK where it’s safe.

1. Accounts in the IOM and Channel Islands are also very strongly protected.

2. I have never seen an Offshore account that withholds tax, as long as you live outside Europe. :o

Mainland UK accounts do regularly.

3. Not paying tax in savings in the UK means forms to fill in.

Offshore there are no taxes.

4. Unless you live in the UK you can no longer open an account there.

5 Offshore banks know how to do international transfers. High St banks do not and will have to send the request to Head Office, wasting days of time.

What ever you do, DO NOT TAKE MONEY YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOOSE TO THAILAND.

To paraphrase my own well quoted statement. :D :D

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1. Accounts in the IOM and Channel Islands are also very strongly protected.

2. I have never seen an Offshore account that withholds tax, as long as you live outside Europe.

Mainland UK accounts do regularly.

3. Not paying tax in savings in the UK means forms to fill in.

Offshore there are no taxes.

4. Unless you live in the UK you can no longer open an account there.

5 Offshore banks know how to do international transfers. High St banks do not and will have to send the request to Head Office, wasting days of time.

1. Yes, but not the same protections as mainland banks. And there are bank disclosure rules that create problems with UK Wills and Legacies.

2. The UK goverment passed legislation (to align the UK with the EU Savings Directive) Details from Lloyds. If you read these details you will see that Channel Island/IoM banks have followed Luxenburg and opted to withhold tax (tax retention) rather than disclose personal details.

You can elect to disclose details, rather than pay the 15% and rising to 20% retention tax. But you'd have all those forms to fill in.

But ask yourself, if the directive and laws have been framed to allow an option, pay tax or disclose details, and the Channel Islands/IoM have taken the default as 'Pay Tax rather than Disclose Details' what does that tell you about the people who these accounts are marketed too?

3. I completed the simple form in a matter of minutes (off shore accounts are taxed, but to get tax free interest off shore you need to complete forms 2)

5. I regularly do overseas transactions from my UK account, I can't say I've ever encountered 'Days of Delay'.

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Is one due to pay Thai tax on interest (already taxed in UK), and State pension when they are transferred here for living expenses?

I've read all the postings with interest (i'm a retired UK/International tax specialist).

Lots of good info but what are your future intentions and what do you want to achieve?

You need to consider residence/domicile/capital gains tax/ income tax and Inheritance tax and then plan accordingly. It would be worth your while talking to a specialist unless you consider none of these to be an issue for you!

Jim

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

I am new to this forum so apologies for the unsophisticated approach. I was interested in your point about tax domicile and reducing my tax burden to NIL.

What I would like to ask is if I have for example investments in Switzerland, a house in the UK, a house in Thailand and move to Thailand to live without working for a company, what efforts do the authorities undertake to investigate one's tax affairs. I reside in Dubai presently where I benefit from 100% tax free status apart from my UK rentals. I would like to leave all my money in Switzerland and reside in Thailand.

Do you know whether ex-pats generally pay tax on investment income to either UK / Thai authorties? Or is it something which is conveniently 'forgotten' about as I have spoken with Indian - Thai nationals who tell me they never pay any personal income tax but I imagine Western Ex-Pats may be viewed in a different light?

If you have any meaningful insights about the actual practice rather than the theory I would be very grateful.

Many thanks

Jason

Hi,

I have been wading through the internet for the last few hours and am as clueless as when I started. Can somebody definately tell me whether the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand or not please?

Here is the text of the convention between UK and Thailand...

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/fileadmin/down.../english_e.pdf

A bit off topic : people usually see thoses convention like good thing, because they contains the word "to avoid double taxation".... But actually, it's just another way to squeeze you.

Fiscal authorities love to use definitions that are extremely blur... So they can better nail you.

The key point is : where is your fiscal domicile.

We usually think : easy, it's where you live more than 6 month. What a mistake.

Fiscal authorities can look at permanent home, but also "vital interests"... It means if you get into a conflict with them, they would always be able to nail you.

So to summarize : the best way to be in peace, is to add a third country into this glorious scheme to make a... triangle.

-the country where were born : OK keep there a house, that you can rent : fair enough you pay UK taxes for instance (but small amount)

-the country where you live and work : Thailand (you pay the income tax)

-and the very friendly country where you put your money at work (fixed term deposit, Unit trusts, shares etc.), without taxation whatsoever (interest, dividends or capital gain).

Voila. You keep a security option (the house in UK), you have a clear fiscal domicile, and enough (but small) income to justify your living expenses in Thailand. And the real money is off shore. Working for your eyes only.

Life is sweet.

And you can say the F word to UK and Thailand, as for taxation. And you can think with a smile about all thoses morons who hope to get one day a "pension" for their retirement. Based on the shemes in Europe, they will have... nothing because demography (too many pensioners against less and less people working).

And you can laugh at all thoses morons who still trust medicare and other state schemes for their medical insurance. They will pay more and more taxes to finances thoses, and they will get less and less from them.

Yes indeed, life is sweet.

Edited by jasong
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Hi,

I have been wading through the internet for the last few hours and am as clueless as when I started. Can somebody definately tell me whether the UK has a double taxation agreement with Thailand or not please?

Here is the text of the convention between UK and Thailand...

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/fileadmin/down.../english_e.pdf

A bit off topic : people usually see thoses convention like good thing, because they contains the word "to avoid double taxation".... But actually, it's just another way to squeeze you.

Fiscal authorities love to use definitions that are extremely blur... So they can better nail you.

The key point is : where is your fiscal domicile.

We usually think : easy, it's where you live more than 6 month. What a mistake.

Fiscal authorities can look at permanent home, but also "vital interests"... It means if you get into a conflict with them, they would always be able to nail you.

So to summarize : the best way to be in peace, is to add a third country into this glorious scheme to make a... triangle.

-the country where were born : OK keep there a house, that you can rent : fair enough you pay UK taxes for instance (but small amount)

-the country where you live and work : Thailand (you pay the income tax)

-and the very friendly country where you put your money at work (fixed term deposit, Unit trusts, shares etc.), without taxation whatsoever (interest, dividends or capital gain).

Voila. You keep a security option (the house in UK), you have a clear fiscal domicile, and enough (but small) income to justify your living expenses in Thailand. And the real money is off shore. Working for your eyes only.

Life is sweet.

And you can say the F word to UK and Thailand, as for taxation. And you can think with a smile about all thoses morons who hope to get one day a "pension" for their retirement. Based on the shemes in Europe, they will have... nothing because demography (too many pensioners against less and less people working).

And you can laugh at all thoses morons who still trust medicare and other state schemes for their medical insurance. They will pay more and more taxes to finances thoses, and they will get less and less from them.

Yes indeed, life is sweet.

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1. Accounts in the IOM and Channel Islands are also very strongly protected.

2. I have never seen an Offshore account that withholds tax, as long as you live outside Europe.

Mainland UK accounts do regularly.

3. Not paying tax in savings in the UK means forms to fill in.

Offshore there are no taxes.

4. Unless you live in the UK you can no longer open an account there.

5 Offshore banks know how to do international transfers. High St banks do not and will have to send the request to Head Office, wasting days of time.

1. Yes, but not the same protections as mainland banks. And there are bank disclosure rules that create problems with UK Wills and Legacies.

2. The UK goverment passed legislation (to align the UK with the EU Savings Directive) Details from Lloyds. If you read these details you will see that Channel Island/IoM banks have followed Luxenburg and opted to withhold tax (tax retention) rather than disclose personal details.

The Withholding Tax is only applied to residents of EU countries. If you are non-resident for tax purposes and live outside the EU interest is paid gross which is worth 20% over an equivalent UK savings account paying the same interest.

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Is one due to pay Thai tax on interest (already taxed in UK), and State pension when they are transferred here for living expenses?

I've read all the postings with interest (i'm a retired UK/International tax specialist).

Lots of good info but what are your future intentions and what do you want to achieve?

You need to consider residence/domicile/capital gains tax/ income tax and Inheritance tax and then plan accordingly. It would be worth your while talking to a specialist unless you consider none of these to be an issue for you!

Jim

If you leave the UK and do not intend to live there but just visit.

Fill out a P85 form, leaving the country. Then you pay no more tax from that point in the uk. You can only visit the UK 90 days of a year if you do this

After this point is you sell any property in the UK that would have had capital gains tax, you do not need to pay it.

Arrive in Thailand live your life. The UK can not ask about your money – income as you do not live there.

This can only be done if you are leaving the UK for many years.

You can keep property in the Uk and money in the UK banks. Just no more tax forms, if you need any more info to clarify any points please let me know.

This is not a theory it works in practise. If you are not living in the UK, it is simple, no tax in the UK,

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Is one due to pay Thai tax on interest (already taxed in UK), and State pension when they are transferred here for living expenses?

I've read all the postings with interest (i'm a retired UK/International tax specialist).

Lots of good info but what are your future intentions and what do you want to achieve?

You need to consider residence/domicile/capital gains tax/ income tax and Inheritance tax and then plan accordingly. It would be worth your while talking to a specialist unless you consider none of these to be an issue for you!

Jim

If you leave the UK and do not intend to live there but just visit.

Fill out a P85 form, leaving the country. Then you pay no more tax from that point in the uk. You can only visit the UK 90 days of a year if you do this

After this point is you sell any property in the UK that would have had capital gains tax, you do not need to pay it.

Arrive in Thailand live your life. The UK can not ask about your money – income as you do not live there.

This can only be done if you are leaving the UK for many years.

You can keep property in the Uk and money in the UK banks. Just no more tax forms, if you need any more info to clarify any points please let me know.

This is not a theory it works in practise. If you are not living in the UK, it is simple, no tax in the UK,

You are wrong.Regardless of whether you have domicile elsewhere, you are liable for UK tax if you have income arising in the UK from investments, bank interest, property rent etc etc.

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If you leave the UK and do not intend to live there but just visit.

Fill out a P85 form, leaving the country. Then you pay no more tax from that point in the uk. You can only visit the UK 90 days of a year if you do this

After this point is you sell any property in the UK that would have had capital gains tax, you do not need to pay it.

Arrive in Thailand live your life. The UK can not ask about your money – income as you do not live there.

This can only be done if you are leaving the UK for many years.

You can keep property in the Uk and money in the UK banks. Just no more tax forms, if you need any more info to clarify any points please let me know.

This is not a theory it works in practise. If you are not living in the UK, it is simple, no tax in the UK,

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If you leave the UK and do not intend to live there but just visit.

Fill out a P85 form, leaving the country. Then you pay no more tax from that point in the uk. You can only visit the UK 90 days of a year if you do this

After this point is you sell any property in the UK that would have had capital gains tax, you do not need to pay it.

Arrive in Thailand live your life. The UK can not ask about your money – income as you do not live there.

This can only be done if you are leaving the UK for many years.

You can keep property in the Uk and money in the UK banks. Just no more tax forms, if you need any more info to clarify any points please let me know.

This is not a theory it works in practise. If you are not living in the UK, it is simple, no tax in the UK,

Oops - sorry about that!

Ah.....If only it were that simple!

a) You will continue to pay tax in the UK on your property income

:o You'll need to be non-resident for at least 5 years to ensure no Captital Gains on the eventual sale of the property(fro the period it is let)

c) You may need to watch your Inheritance tax situation. This is based on your domicile. If you were born in the UK then you have to cut ALL ties with the UK to be considered non domiciled. Not easy to achieve and certainly impossible with a UK proerty and bank account!

d) Having an off-ashore bank account is a simple process. Anyone concerned about the EU directive and form filling to avoid interest being taxed at source could open an off-shore bank account in say Hong Kong.

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Can you please clarify capital gains on selling property in the UK . I have been non resident for over 5 years and am renting out my property in London - I file a tax return every year - I thought that capitals gains would be payable on the sale but you say not ?

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Can you please clarify capital gains on selling property in the UK . I have been non resident for over 5 years and am renting out my property in London - I file a tax return every year - I thought that capitals gains would be payable on the sale but you say not ?

That is how it generally works in practice but it is depends on your residence/ordinary residence status.

Go to their website:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk and download leaflets IR20, IR278, and CGT1 for general guidance.

Thinigs to consider:

1) Did you complete from P85 when you left and get a residence ruling?

2) Was the property in question your principal private residence before you let it?

3) Are youg oing back?

4) Are you a UK citixen with UK domicile?

If you are in doubt about your status it is worthwhile contacting them to check on your particular situation. They are extremely helpful.

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I have never heard the 5 year rule before, but if you are non-resident you are not liable for capital gains tax,

even if you have been submitting tax returns on property income.

On the Inheritance side.

I have sold up in the UK and have my funds in an Executive Bond with Royal Skandia, IOM.

This is term life assurance that still gives me access to the capital to buy and sell shares as I wish.

i.e. I can control the funds.

It can be converted to a Discressionary Trust by simply signing a form to say who is to receive the proceeds when I die.

This means that no probate or IHT is payable to the UK government as all the

funds are under the control of the IOM government.

Neat eh!

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d) Having an off-ashore bank account is a simple process. Anyone concerned about the EU directive and form filling to avoid interest being taxed at source could open an off-shore bank account in say Hong Kong.

Yes, yes, common sense. We have to repeat it ad nauseam. Too many people who could do it are still uninformed, are still prisonners of their mental 1984 Big Brother State.

HK, Singapore.... highly respectable countries, highly sophisticated, and completly safe from the western fiscal inquisition, because within the asian sphere. So called "chinese communist" are more capitalist than our old europe for instance. But people don't realize.

Anyway : get out the Matrix. Freedom !

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I have never heard the 5 year rule before, but if you are non-resident you are not liable for capital gains tax,

even if you have been submitting tax returns on property income.

On the Inheritance side.

I have sold up in the UK and have my funds in an Executive Bond with Royal Skandia, IOM.

This is term life assurance that still gives me access to the capital to buy and sell shares as I wish.

i.e. I can control the funds.

It can be converted to a Discressionary Trust by simply signing a form to say who is to receive the proceeds when I die.

This means that no probate or IHT is payable to the UK government as all the

funds are under the control of the IOM government.

Neat eh!

Dear Aastral (and anyone else reading these threads),

Please, please read the booklets I have referred to. It is simply not the case that if you are non-resident in the UK you do not have to pay CGT. In particular look at the summary at 8.12.

You have to be not-resident and not ordinarilly resident and also be aware of the rules for temporary non-residence (less than 5 years). That's why you need to be NR/NOR for more than 5 tax years to ensure no CGT liability.

The investment bond is wrapped around an Insurance Policy and should ALWAYS be written in trust when they are set up so that the funds fall outside your estate. The funds are under YOUR control and you tell Skandia etc .how to invest the funds on your behalf. The same applies to long-term savings plans. The IOM Government regulates the Insurance Companies to ensure they comply with the IOM laws and regulations.

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I have never heard the 5 year rule before, but if you are non-resident you are not liable for capital gains tax,

even if you have been submitting tax returns on property income.

On the Inheritance side.

I have sold up in the UK and have my funds in an Executive Bond with Royal Skandia, IOM.

This is term life assurance that still gives me access to the capital to buy and sell shares as I wish.

i.e. I can control the funds.

It can be converted to a Discressionary Trust by simply signing a form to say who is to receive the proceeds when I die.

This means that no probate or IHT is payable to the UK government as all the

funds are under the control of the IOM government.

Neat eh!

Nice structure ... I did not change my Will when I recently moved some of my savings off-shore (IOM/Jersey). I should do this I guess ?

At present I have one WIll for Thailand and one for UK only?

Edited by dsfbrit
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Previous posts have said:

"4. Unless you live in the UK you can no longer open an account there."

and

"You can keep property in the Uk and money in the UK banks."

So I assume that when you leave the UK you can keep a current account there and internet banking? Can you keep a credit card? Do you have to supply a UK address?

Excuse my naivety, I'm trying to get my head round all this for moving to LOS in a couple of years time

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