The Gaur

[Maizefarmer]

Back to the Cattle subject………..

We spent a lot of time discussion the pros & cons of various cattle breeds in Thailand.

In on of Chris.B’s postings there is a link to Fish Framing – under which there are a list of publications, many of which are not fish, but other animal related – and there I saw a brief write up relating to the Gaur.

The Gaur as most will know is a somewhat shy and gentle animal – preferring forest cover to open field.

From a potential commercial livestock perspective the animal CAN be crossed with what we generally accept as domesticated cattle – that problem has been overcome – in Thailand. Its “plus points” lie in its sheer bulk – its an enormous animal which feeds much more easily on local diet (i.e. the costs associated with forgae production to feed a herd of Gaur are fractional compared to domesticated livestock), its naturally incredibly resistant to parasites and pests, and its neat meat content is nearly twice that of a domesticated beef animal – for a production cost that tops out at between a 1/3 to ½ that of beef animals.

Tremendous potential – someone who was seriously interested in looking into what is the best animal for these conditions wouldn’t go far wrong with 24 – 36 month experiment with a herd of Gaur or mixed Beef cattle / Gaur herd.

Hang it like you should any meat and my guess is you’d have meat that is better than what we generally get as beef, and saleable considerably cheaper than the so-called beef we get in this country.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

Please excuse bad spelling - Fish Framing should - obviously - be Fish Farming

- one other thing about the Gaur - it can jump, and can it!! - 2m high plus fencing will be required, so sorry for someone who is always quick to remind others to consider the practicalities versus the theory as outlined in articles and readups, I should mention that the fencing requirements for Gaur farming will be a notable capital outlay!!

Tim

[RamdomChances]

Sounds good Tim, got any links. The problems I would see with it would involve things like where do you get your stock from and the ammount of time you need. It would probably suit someone with a large well established farm I'm not sure wether most samll holders would have the time and the contacts nessesery to make it work. Here's a pic so we all know what we are talking about

[teletiger]

Here's a couple of pictures that maybe show their potential as beef animals as Tim mentioned.

The first picture is a cow, who's got more rump on her than most Brahman bulls.

I would shy away from describing these animals as gentle. Two young Gaur bulls wandered out of the park beside us, attacked a passing pick-up, totalling the front end. One bull broke it's neck in the attack and the second one had to be shot by park rangers because he wouldn't leave his dead partner.

Would make an interesting experiment though. Not for the faint hearted I would suggest

Regards

[bina]

one of the plusses in raising domesticated animals (not trained, genetically domesticated) is their 'handlability' and 'flexibility' for dealing with anything from medical intervention without going into capture myopathy (stress related death like in wild herd animals) to moving pastures to dealing with people (not as pets, but not fright and flight in extreme).

the gaer seems rather difficult for a thai family grandma to raise )

[fxm88]

There is a new and exciting market worldwide for ostriches gaurs and the products from them. These ostrich gaur products include the likes of boots, handbags, jewelry, feather dusters, as well as red meat, and these products are beginning to gain global attention for their ultra-fine quality. Ostrich Gaur ranchers both in the US and South Africa are beginning to turn over high profits.

Source: http://www.american.edu/TED/gaur.htm

[teletiger]

one of the plusses in raising domesticated animals (not trained, genetically domesticated) is their 'handlability' and 'flexibility' for dealing with anything from medical intervention without going into capture myopathy (stress related death like in wild herd animals) to moving pastures to dealing with people (not as pets, but not fright and flight in extreme).

the gaer seems rather difficult for a thai family grandma to raise )

I think maybe Tim is talking more about using gaur genetics in a cross-breeding programme.

In America they breed "beefalos". A cross between the American bison and European cattle. The product is a low fat beef and cattle more suited to grazing open range land. The jury is still out on this programme. Apparently a high quality steak needs marbling (inter-muscular fat), for taste and tenderness.

Regards

[Nawtilus]

These are also called Banteng in Oz and i believe Binteng in Indo, correct me if wrong.

As Teletiger mentioned, not so calm and gentle in his experience, but your experience was with a wild bull or cow. Not a domesticated one.

We all know how gentle and placid the buffalo are, but i can assure you that i was involved with wild buffalo in Oz and a wild Buff would/can/has killed in an instant and they are far more dangerous in Oz in their wild state that a wild Brahamn for example.

I have seen a bull toss a 6 month old calf out of a truck and another put its horns through a toyota landcruiser from underneath and up into the cabin nearly giving the driver a second ahole to crap from.

Point is that when domesticated they are very very docile, presumerably so would this breed be, more so i think than cattle. Buffalo are a very famly oriented beast and become affectionate.

I remember seeing one of these Banteng in Oz in the wild, huge he was and in the instant I saw him and tried to follow him he was gone. First time I had seen one and with the horn construction, i thought it was some escaped cross between a brahman and an african wilderbeast with the horns.

[chownah]

Interesting that you would presume that a gaur would be docile if domesticated. Is there some reason for your presumption? Little kitties are docile when domesticated so one might presume that a tiger would be too....but I think they would be wrong.

Chownah

[Nawtilus]

Read what I wrote above. I have some experience with wild cattle and buffalo, no reason to expect any different. Also these banteng are common in Indonesia to an extent, you only need to look around in the countryside to see them tethered the same as you see the floppy eared brahman and buffalo here.

Some tigers are docile when domesticated, whats your point here ?

As in any animal and human, there are the exceptions and those individuals would never be docile to an extent.

By and large I believe they would be the same as the wild buffalo and able to be domesticated very well.

[chownah]

My point was simply to see why you presumed that gaur's would be docile if domesticated....that's all. I guess that what you are saying is that since wild buffalo can be domesticated then gaurs can be domesticated too....you might be wrong but then again you might be right. Also you have seen them tethered in some places...I'm not sure if this is an indication of a docile animal or not. I guess for me your arguement is not so persuasive. I want to be clear that I am not offering an opinion on this either way since I know nothing about these critters...but I'm wanting to learn and for me one of the most important things in learning is to look for assumptions and then ask about where these spring from...that's all it is....nothing personal.

As for docile tigers.....a tiger may be docile for many years and then there will be a small animal scurrying in its peripheral vision and its instincts will kick in and without thinking it will pounce on the little animal and crush its skull or break its neck.....the small animal could very well be its trainer...this does happen. To say that tigers will be docile if domesticated is a very misleading thing to say....of course I know that you did not say this. Just to be clear about how this is connected with the discussion at hand: Animals with "violent" instincts and with the size and strength to do unacceptable damage to people and property often do not do well in domestication....an example of this would be a tiger or a gorilla or a rhinocerous....all of which can be docile for extended periods...but.....Also let me be clear that I am not claiming that guar are in this category....I really don't know...I'm only learning about them now.

Chownah

[Nawtilus]

The thing is its not an arguement nor am I trying to be persuasive, just stating my belief and experience, do with it what you will.

[bina]

before u all get in a roar;

domestication means genetic development of an animal hundreds or thousands of years (bred with a functional purpose in mind, even if the function is just to look pretty -- like those wierd goldfish ) to be with humans; manageable etc

'impressing' maybe taming is the word (sorry dont know the english term, translating from the hebrew ': when bottle fed or tamed, any animal becomes managable, but only that specific animal (have experience with foxes, karakals, monkeys, alligators, swamp cats, ibexes, etc): they are all managable when bottle fed, but that does not mean that they are trustworthy or managable when not worked with... in general, humans breed domestic animals to be workable i.e. even if not bottle fed, its fright/flight/attack instincts are fairly gone, and certain characterisitcs were weeded out as not useful (useful things: placidity, willingness to be managed/trained/manouvered/worked with)

there are always exceptions: a certain breed of goat is more 'workable' or 'trainable' than an other which is more hot tempered, the same with dog breeds, sheep, horses, cows, beef cattle etc.

swamp buffalo and the other related buffalo are also supposedly different in temperament (the italian water buffalo for milk has a slightly different personality in general then the thai water buffalo because the usage is different and the farms demand different qualities)

sorry for lecture: i lecture on this stuff all the time at the zoo, but to write it out it becomes wordy....

which is why feral animals are the most dangerous: they are domesticated animals running loose w/no handling so they deal with humans on a different level then a wild animal (tend to approach humans, less wary, pack/herd instinct not the same, etc.

back to gauers: i think that distance between housing and farms also dictates what animal u will raise: a large, hot tempered herd animal doesnt fit in an area with lots of families and housing and the animal wanders around among them (buffalo, cow)... the u.s. and australia have large huge unpopulated areas so the same nasty large animal will not run some little old lady over...

will have to find out if we have a zoo with gauers in israel to see one in real life

HIGHJACK OF THREAD FOR A MINUTE:))wanted to add a story from our zoo (to substantiate chownah on this point, u can ask nignoy also): we had hand raised caracals (desert type cat like a lynx); one worker went in to clean and play with them as we kept them handleable for vet purposes. he had his hair pulled back in a ponytail. as he bent over to pick something up, the female pounced on his ponytail, tearing his back to shreds. (she thought is was a wild quail or something similar. she was always a sweet cat, who enjoyed being scratched behind her ears, when w/o kittens, and friendly). we changed our procedures to: wear a hat or hair not pulled back when dealing with them (since then, the yards were changed to have an indoor lock down area for personell safety)

Edited October 5, 2006 by bina

[pete_r]

I can also foresee quite a bit of negotiations with the national parks to get permission to take some gaurs for farming. Maybe a university could do it "as an experiment".

[Nawtilus]

Can't see that as the option, best would be to find if they are in fact the same animals I describe as being quite a number of them in Indonesia. Import a bull and a few cows and raise your own herd.

, then cross them as you please with what you please. Or just cows and AI them with various breeds as an experiment straight up.

But before all this trouble that may be for nothing, lets go shoot a wild one and bbq it and see what it tasted like first.

Or we could go to Oz and I know where to get a truck and catcher and helicopter and we could round up our own herd, I know where they hide, what a holiday that could be. Enough of us here to jump in and do that. No assumptions, just do it.

[chownah]

Maybe you could just take a female cow that is in heat and dump her out by a herd of gaur....seems like nature would take its course and when you fetched her home you might have a baby cow/gaur cross in the oven.

Chownah

[jayenram]

Back to the Cattle subject………..

We spent a lot of time discussion the pros & cons of various cattle breeds in Thailand.

In on of Chris.B’s postings there is a link to Fish Framing – under which there are a list of publications, many of which are not fish, but other animal related – and there I saw a brief write up relating to the Gaur.

The Gaur as most will know is a somewhat shy and gentle animal – preferring forest cover to open field.

From a potential commercial livestock perspective the animal CAN be crossed with what we generally accept as domesticated cattle – that problem has been overcome – in Thailand. Its “plus points” lie in its sheer bulk – its an enormous animal which feeds much more easily on local diet (i.e. the costs associated with forgae production to feed a herd of Gaur are fractional compared to domesticated livestock), its naturally incredibly resistant to parasites and pests, and its neat meat content is nearly twice that of a domesticated beef animal – for a production cost that tops out at between a 1/3 to ½ that of beef animals.

Tremendous potential – someone who was seriously interested in looking into what is the best animal for these conditions wouldn’t go far wrong with 24 – 36 month experiment with a herd of Gaur or mixed Beef cattle / Gaur herd.

Hang it like you should any meat and my guess is you’d have meat that is better than what we generally get as beef, and saleable considerably cheaper than the so-called beef we get in this country.

Tim

[teletiger]

Was that a bump Tyke?

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Been done already - in Thailand.

A Japanese post -grad student undertook a cross breeding exercise between Brahman and Gaur at KK Uni in 2003. I am trying to get a copy of this thesis to see what it was all about and what the results are. Will post for all to see when I get it.

Tim

[teletiger]

Maybe here's an alternative to being chased all over the farm

Blubelga_EMU.pdf

Piedmontese have an interesting history that began in the secluded Piedmont region of northwest Italy, an area naturally protected by the Alps mountain range. This area was populated with an ancient European breed of cattle known as Auroch [ Bos Primigenius ]. Descendants of the Aurochs and other domestic European cattle common to the more temperate zones belong to the species of bovine known as Bos Taurus .

Approximately 25,000 years ago another breed of cattle, known as Zebu [ Bos Indicus ], common in tropical areas such as India and Africa, began a massive migration from Pakistan. The trailblazers of this migration where compelled to stop in the valleys of the Piedmont region, taking advantage of the natural Alpine barriers. The Zebu are characterized by a hump of fleshy tissue over the withers that can sometimes weigh as much as 40 to 50 lbs (18.1 to 22.6 kg), a very large dewlap, large drooping ears and a voice that is more of a grunt than a low. While unique in physical appearance, the Bos Indicus family of cattle are hardy animals that have greater resistance to certain diseases and parasites than the descendants of Bos Taurus, allowing them to thrive in areas that make survival difficult for other species of cattle.

These two distinct breeds, the Auroch and the Zebu, blended and evolved in the harsh mountain terrain over thousands of years to become the Piedmontese breed. In 1886, it was the appearance of double-muscling in Piedmontese cattle that attracted the attention of breeders, who had the foresight to recognize the enormous potential of this development. The first Italian Herdbook was opened in 1887 and breeding programs designed to improve the herd and eliminate detrimental aspects associated with double-muscling were put in place.

The Myostatin gene was discovered over one hundred years later. It is this gene, that occurs naturally in all mammals, that restricts muscle growth. However, in the case of Piedmontese cattle, the gene naturally mutated resulting in the unrestricted muscle development known as double-muscling. In fact, muscle development in Piedmontese cattle averages 14 percent higher than in most other breeds. The Myostatin gene also helps to provide the consistent tenderness of Piedmontese beef.

www.piedmontese-napa.com

http://www.anaborapi.it/catafox-en.htm ..................enjoy

Regards

Edited October 18, 2006 by teletiger

[Maizefarmer]

TT - its an impressive beast - never heard of it.

My concern is this: just how well do you think it will cope with Thai conditions - both climate and feed.

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

........... mmm suspected so - big pity - they seem to be well adapted for cool cimates but heat and humidty they dont like - and that will leave them susceptiable to pest problems and big vet bills.

What a pity - it was otherwise looking a great option

Tim

[teletiger]

........... mmm suspected so - big pity - they seem to be well adapted for cool cimates but heat and humidty they dont like - and that will leave them susceptiable to pest problems and big vet bills.

What a pity - it was otherwise looking a great option

Tim

Being a Zebu cross (Brangus, Charbray, Brahford...ect ) I can't see too many problems.

We've got Dairy charolais crosses on our farm, that are doing very nicely. They pick up more ticks during the season and need 2 hours of shade mid-day...easily remedied....and outgrow our Brahman bulls by 50/60%. As a terminal cross (16/18 months) would there be that many problems?

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Okay - now we are talking - yes, I can read between the lines of what you have said (and so can my other half - much beter than me actually).

Since the whole issue of "cattle" and "what is the best breed/hybrid to use", I have been going over and over in my little brain the viability of considering some or other alternative for an experiment with Beef (not dairy - just to many issues that take to long to adjust to and understand how to make the best of. I tell all readers without a trace of error - it has taken me close on 10 years to get the dairy side of things worked out, so I ain;t going near it at this stage).

But Beef - my feeling was, not withstsanding any feed or enviroment issue that would have to be addressed and understood, the way forward had to include one thing that was going to be common across the shortlisted potential options. And that one thing was: bulk , and when I say bulk I mean on the Gaur scale.

This beast is certainly on the Gaur scale.

I didnt miss Zebu geentic contribution but the other half whipped out a referance book that has hyroglyphics written in it (all genetice and DNA junk for various breeds) and turned to a page, then kind'a gave a gently shake - as if any animal that had the potential to do well here i Thailand has to have some or other trait or combination of traits ........... at which point I said to her, forget it then.

I shall tackle her again tomorrow and ask her to take another look, to point out what she sees as weak and strong points - and then ask her what can be done to addres those points (if anything at all).

But back the original issue. Bulk ranks right at the top of list of requirements.

Tim

[bina]

tim, your other half is probably thinking what i am:

when u breed for one (or more) 'perfect' qualities, u lose on othes... u ALWAYS lose something when u breed specifically for something else.

as even u pointed out, 'all round', proto type, basic animal means usually well suited to everything but cannot provide everything:

i.e. a heavy wool sheep loses on adaptabiltiy to heat or ticks or whatever

a high producing milch goat w/udder to match loses in that she doesnt fit my semi arid grazing pastureland, etc.

so maybe the gauer is that: bulk vs. heat

how can an animal wiht that much bulk deal with heat unless it has new improved ways of dealing with heat for instance.

for most small farmers i suspect that basic well adapted animal is better then more meat vs. additional problems (simplifying a bit, but again, my goats give milk and deal with most problems, but i am not a professional dairy looking only for high milk production and i dont have time etc to push in that direction and it suits me)

{ neighbor has dairy w/import/mixed local goats as he developed a good breeding plan to rectify udder height (to avoid thorny pasture) but keep the milk volume and increase cream content etc., in the end he lost out on volume a bit, but is a boutique brand cheese maker, 20 yrs later}

other neighbor now doing same, 10 yrs. (notice time table here.)

bina

israel

Edited October 19, 2006 by bina