Shophouse and public land

[Puffadder]

I am seeking advice from others who have been confronted with a similar situation as below.

My wife owns a 3 storey shophouse in East Pattaya. We have the corner shophouse with a 5 metre gap between us and the next building. We have owned the building for approximately 10 years.

Recently, we refurbished the whole building to create furnished apartments on the 2^nd and 3^rd floors and shop area on the 1^st floor.

To gain independent access to the 2^nd and 3^rd floors, a stair has been constructed at the side of the building. The width of the stairs does not extend outside the eaves of the roof.

We have been informed by the original developer (previous contact from them was over 8 years ago) that the area between the building is public land and we cannot keep the stairs. The 5 metre gap between the buildings is occasionally used by pedestrians to gain access to the moobahn behind the shophouses.

We have maintained this area by concreting the area and reinstalling the damaged stormwater grates. Repeated requests to Local Council to repair were ignored.

All other shophouses along this road have built right up to the roadside from the front of their shops with awnings, walls and some open beer bars. Shophouses on the corner of side roads have installed awnings, washing machines and beer bars up to the edge of the road.

My family will be meeting with the developer next week to discuss the situation and good advice would be appreciated that would enable us to keep the stairs.

I sent a query to Ask the Lawyer but he hasn’t replied to anyone since 2 August 2015

[inzman]

Thais,typically ignore these requests, I would too. Even the military can't eject people building illegally on govt land. Takes years and money to get them out. Tell the developer to tell it to a judge and he will see the light. Unless of course he has a way of making some money on the deal.

[tonray]

Why in blazes name does the original developer care...unless he has some deal in the work with the government to somehow gain access for profit to that public land ?

[Puffadder]

Why in blazes name does the original developer care...unless he has some deal in the work with the government to somehow gain access for profit to that public land ?

I'm not sure, but we think a neighbour has complained to them. A particular neighbour has always complained about our previous tenants.

The public piece of land is only 5 metres wide by 20 metres long and is used as a pedestrian walk way.

[Puffadder]

Thais,typically ignore these requests, I would too. Even the military can't eject people building illegally on govt land. Takes years and money to get them out. Tell the developer to tell it to a judge and he will see the light. Unless of course he has a way of making some money on the deal.

Thank you for your reply. I will go to the meeting and I will take your advice and will ignore any requests to remove the stairs.

[hhgz]

Since both you and your wife understand the law, why would you illegal modify your shophouse? "Because other people do it" is not a legally valid excuse.

[Puffadder]

Since both you and your wife understand the law, why would you illegal modify your shophouse? "Because other people do it" is not a legally valid excuse.

The stairs have been constructed under the eaves of the roof. The edges of the roof of buildings are built within the property boundary. Therefore, I believe that I have not acted illegally.

[Langsuan Man]

If your stairs are blocking public access then how can you say that you have not acted illegally

Public access means exactly what it says and whether or not the stairs fit under your eves means nothing, if they exceed the footprint of your property. You points about the other shop houses building right up to the road does not apply to you since they are not restricting access to the road (public area)

The developer is now suddenly involved because he may have only received permission to build based upon the public access of this " 5 x 20 meter strip " . In other words he may have been allowed to build his shop houses so long as he did not land lock the mooban behind you

[Puffadder]

If your stairs are blocking public access then how can you say that you have not acted illegally

Public access means exactly what it says and whether or not the stairs fit under your eves means nothing, if they exceed the footprint of your property. You points about the other shop houses building right up to the road does not apply to you since they are not restricting access to the road (public area)

The developer is now suddenly involved because he may have only received permission to build based upon the public access of this " 5 x 20 meter strip " . In other words he may have been allowed to build his shop houses so long as he did not land lock the mooban behind you

The stairs are not blocking public access and they do not exceed the footprint of my property.

The other shophouses are blocking public access because they have built right up to the road. There is no footpath access and people have to walk on the road.

I live in the moobahn behind the shophouse, it is not locked in, there is adequate vehicle and pedestrian access.

I stated that the area adjacent to our shophouse was public land not public access.

Originally, there was a wall built by the developers which did not allow access through the public land adjacent to my shop house.

Other neighbours have put in a doorway in the wall so that they could use for access through this area and allow run off from heavy rains into the stormwater drains due to poor drainage design by the developer.

[tonray]

I think this is going to be one of those "legally you are wrong" but 1) everyone else is doing it so I should be exempt also or 2) "Ok I will remove my stairs but then I will file complaints about all the other shophouses violating too."

The problem with 1) is I am not sure Thai law (and I know nothing) allows exemptions because everyone is 'homesteading" on the property.

and the problem with 2) is it will create very bad relations and you might have to watch your back for years.

A more reasonable solution is to suck it up and rebuild in compliance -or- attempt to negotiate with whomever controls this public land (local office official) and come to a monetary solution to allow you access to your little piece.

[Puffadder]

I think this is going to be one of those "legally you are wrong" but 1) everyone else is doing it so I should be exempt also or 2) "Ok I will remove my stairs but then I will file complaints about all the other shophouses violating too."

The problem with 1) is I am not sure Thai law (and I know nothing) allows exemptions because everyone is 'homesteading" on the property.

and the problem with 2) is it will create very bad relations and you might have to watch your back for years.

A more reasonable solution is to suck it up and rebuild in compliance -or- attempt to negotiate with whomever controls this public land (local office official) and come to a monetary solution to allow you access to your little piece.

I still believe I am compliant but I am also aware that I may be in the wrong.

I don't wish to create problems for others but I am frustrated that there is blatant disregard for planning rules all around our area and our staircase tucked away in a corner is suddenly on the radar of the original developer.

I agree with you and feel that negotiation with the appropriate official will resolve the issue.

[blackcab]

Firstly, don't agree to remove the stairs. They are on your property. That means it's a matter for the district office, not the original developer. In reality it has nothing to do with the original developer at all.

Secondly, you need to get to the land office and get a copy of the chanote for the land next to you. The chanote/print out will tell you exactly who owns the land and also whether it is public land or not. Do this before any meeting so you are prepared.

The only problem you might have is that there is supposed to be a set back from the edge of your property to the (allegedly) public road. The district office will set you straight what this distance is. Get the wife to call and ask in general terms without giving your location away.

If you really do have to move the stairs consider chopping the bottom section off and making them hinge from the first floor with a counterweight. You might get away with reworking what you have instead of removing too much. Compromises and all that...

[Puffadder]

Firstly, don't agree to remove the stairs. They are on your property. That means it's a matter for the district office, not the original developer. In reality it has nothing to do with the original developer at all.

Secondly, you need to get to the land office and get a copy of the chanote for the land next to you. The chanote/print out will tell you exactly who owns the land and also whether it is public land or not. Do this before any meeting so you are prepared.

The only problem you might have is that there is supposed to be a set back from the edge of your property to the (allegedly) public road. The district office will set you straight what this distance is. Get the wife to call and ask in general terms without giving your location away.

If you really do have to move the stairs consider chopping the bottom section off and making them hinge from the first floor with a counterweight. You might get away with reworking what you have instead of removing too much. Compromises and all that...

Thank you for the advice.

We will seek further information on the ownership of the adjacent land and find out why the original developer is involved.