Stealing a Business..... Can employees pull off this ultimate scam?

[inquisitive lobster]

Hi There,

First off, thanks for your interest in taking the time to read my post.

I really appreciate your interest.

Now as the title states, can employees actually steal a company from the owner, especially a foreign owned company?

I read recently that a company can easily be stolen from the owners once the perpetrators have the following things:

1.) Copy of Passport with Signature

2.) Company Stamp

3.) Corrupt Lawyer

Now as foreigners cannot hold assets like LAND, they normally use a company (which is its own legal entity) to own assets. So if the foreigner is a shareholder and director of a company then indirectly the foreigner owns the assets.

Now once the perpetrators have a copy of the passport, they can forge the owners signature, take it to a corrupt lawyer to get it notarized and change the directors/shareholders on the board.

So now that the owner is no longer a shareholder, he/she no longer owns anything that the company owns, and everything is passed onto the new directors.......

The thing is most of these things are needed in day to day transactions and are very easy for anyone working in a company to get their hands on.

Let's face it, in Thailand its much easier finding a corrupt lawyer than a non-corrupt one....(probably easier to find a leprechaun that SH**S gold too)

Now what I would like to know is CAN THIS ACTUALLY BE DONE?

(I am a greenhorn when it comes to Thai-law and business procedures).

[Ks45672]

If you search back far enough, they're are people it has already happened too....

I can't remember specifics but I am sure it's been done in phuket to an Irish guy who lost a lot but there are others

[Cloggie]

Just have a look: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34346620 or this one: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/829937-irish-man-claims-his-house-land-worth-bt65-million-defrauded/

So with the "right wife and lawyers" it looks like it is possible - it probably will end up "his word against their words" and guess who will lose....

Edited November 23, 2015 by Cloggie

[ezzra]

Doing business n Thailand come with perils whereby at any time someone can and probably will steal

your money, goods, idea and customers, and in some case your business, what you can to prevent

it? not much, just be vigil and keep all documents and important ownership papers safe and don't ever

trust your Thai employees or you your lawyer for that matter as they're, sometime, beiger crocks than

your employees....

[MobileContent]

I lost 30% of my shares in 1999 the exact way the OP posted.

On the end I walked away.

BTW: Those other shareholders were Farangs and a German/Thai Lawyer.

[smotherb]

Gee, ya know, that may work anywhere.

[dotpoom]

Everything and anything is possible.......if Big Corporations making trillions can pay less tax than one of their secretaries...then for sure, anything is possible.

[shirtless]

Remember you only own 49% of the business.

[KittenKong]

Absolutely possible.

I would never get involved in any sort of business/partnership in Thailand. There are just far too many crooks here and legal protection is minimal or non-existent.

I bought a car and my sole name is on the registration document. I also bought a condo and my sole name is on the chanote. And that is as far as I would go.

[LukKrueng]

What you describe here is a forgery, not invented here in Thailand nor by Thai people. This can and probably does happen everywhere in the world. There is a movie of Mel Brooks depicting a case such as you have described, and being a Mel Brooks movie this was about the US of A...

If you think ALL or even MOST of Thai people are crooks, what the Fxxx are you doing here? Sure, when doing business anywhere in the world you have to be careful. And BTW, opening a company for the sole reason being to own a property which according to the Thai low is not allowed is also cheating!!

[Minnehaha]

Sure can happen.

In addition to the scenario laid out by OP and others...

I have seen accountants bleed companies dry. Thai accountants stealing from Thai owners and of course Thai accountants stealing from Foreign owners.

One safeguard against all of this is to use an outside accounting firm for things and to keep controls in place. With a third party in the mix it adds a barrier.

Similarly, and perhaps just as common is for employees to leave the company and take everything, get their severance and then open up shop competing directly and stealing your customers. Happens everyday on the street. Look at how many clusters of restaurants and services there are next to each other. Same dynamic happens on larger scale.

[Fairynuff]

I lost 30% of my shares in 1999 the exact way the OP posted.

On the end I walked away.

BTW: Those other shareholders were Farangs and a German/Thai Lawyer.

Sounds like Orawan operating in one of the beach resorts ( is it possible to libel someone who's already in prison?)

[MobileContent]

I lost 30% of my shares in 1999 the exact way the OP posted.

On the end I walked away.

BTW: Those other shareholders were Farangs and a German/Thai Lawyer.

Sounds like Orawan operating in one of the beach resorts ( is it possible to libel someone who's already in prison?)

Who is Orawan?

[phil2407]

What's the name of the Mel Brooks movie please?

[timewilltell]

What you describe here is a forgery, not invented here in Thailand nor by Thai people. This can and probably does happen everywhere in the world. There is a movie of Mel Brooks depicting a case such as you have described, and being a Mel Brooks movie this was about the US of A...

If you think ALL or even MOST of Thai people are crooks, what the Fxxx are you doing here? Sure, when doing business anywhere in the world you have to be careful. And BTW, opening a company for the sole reason being to own a property which according to the Thai low is not allowed is also cheating!!

You are quite right it is forgery. It happens on other countries though usually lawyers who notorise are not willing to risk their job for 500 baht or the equivalent. Here the standard of lawyers is so poor that it us commonplace and no eyebrows are even raised at the suggestion. Secondly other countries have people working in government departments who are mire vigilant providing another chance for the fraud to get spotted. Here it is 'not my business' so even suspicious deals get waved through sometimes with a 'tip'. Lastly other countries have a legal system where once fraud is proven the assets are immediately returned to the rightful owner. Here the courts will find every way to ensure foreigners gave the hardest possible time obtaining Justice, the police are obstructive and the lawyers will take your money and work for the other side. Not a single person will be interested in helping you get justice and you will need to do everything yourself to get your assets back. The embassies are well aware this is going on and yet do nothing except say they cannot intervene shift luring yet more foreign investors here to be scammed in exactly the same way. Disgraceful all round. Do not invest in Thailand

[Autonuaq]

What you write can happen everywhere in the world.

if people want to have your shares or do things that are in the gray or black they know how to do. Not worry about that.

Thailand is more clear about this that you only can own 49% of the shares, expect when you have permission by the government you can have all shares.

there are other legal ways too to have 100% of the shares and even own land on you name too.

[theonetrueaussie]

Yes it has happened to many people you can lose houses, companies the lot. The person responsible will get 6 months in jail for forgery and you WILL NEVER get your company / house back. Just look at the numerous cases around they have been fighting for 4-5+ years to get their assets back and fail everytime.

[bbabythai]

after reading that bbc article who would ever invest money and put into company name... dodgy lawyers everywhere. Good luck to the victims.

[KIWIBATCH]

where is in the world do you...yourself......set up a company...only to find that you only own 49% of it....and the other 51% (the majority share) is owned by a Thai person who you have never met.....and never set eyes on........do not invest in Thailand...repeat do not invest in Thailand....you will/would lose more than your shirt....!!!!

[fekman]

It's more costly, but you can have a second corporation hold the other 51% shares. This radically increases your share ownership. You can also partner up with a u.s. citizen, this way you can use many strategies to protect your shares, such as loans, mortgages, liens etc. It's illegal for a foreinger to borrow or lend money to a Thai, making most of these strategies useless, as they wont stand up in court.

Or you can count to ten, then just burn your investment and save the time and headaches.

Or just take your dough to Costa Rica. 130 year old govt banks paying 8% a year. Was paying 16.9% in 2008-2010!

[KittenKong]

What's the name of the Mel Brooks movie please?

It's part of the storyline of "Life Stinks".

[thailanddogerator]

Just as land that is transferred at land office when real owner does not know...

[TPI]

In 1967 I met some 'mericans who advised me, in the most friendlyest of words "Never, ever do business with a Thai"! since that time I have stuck religiously to that advice, except one time, it only cost me 3 million baht, I thought I was lucky at the time!!

[topt]

It's more costly, but you can have a second corporation hold the other 51% shares. This radically increases your share ownership. You can also partner up with a u.s. citizen, this way you can use many strategies to protect your shares, such as loans, mortgages, liens etc. It's illegal for a foreinger to borrow or lend money to a Thai, making most of these strategies useless, as they wont stand up in court.

Or you can count to ten, then just burn your investment and save the time and headaches.

Or just take your dough to Costa Rica. 130 year old govt banks paying 8% a year. Was paying 16.9% in 2008-2010!

Do you have a link to back up the statement "It's illegal for a foreinger to borrow or lend money to a Thai" as that does not tie in to my experience?

[topt]

What's the name of the Mel Brooks movie please?

Take your pick - http://www.movies.com/actors/mel-brooks/mel-brooks-movies/p301914

[louse1953]

If your a greenhorn how come you rekon Thai lawyers are more corrupt than not or are you just pissing into the wind.

[bazza40]

In 1967 I met some 'mericans who advised me, in the most friendlyest of words "Never, ever do business with a Thai"! since that time I have stuck religiously to that advice, except one time, it only cost me 3 million baht, I thought I was lucky at the time!!

It can be very costly to do business with Americans too. Just ask BHP Billiton how the $2.4 billion Magma Copper acquisition went. They were sold a truckload of exhausted copper mines.

[inquisitive lobster]

If your a greenhorn how come you rekon Thai lawyers are more corrupt than not or are you just pissing into the wind.

Hi there,

Firstly thanks for the reply and very good question.

Well from my viewpoint;

-given the nature in which I've seen people do business (False promises followed by the choir of "Mai Pen Rai's"),

-the manner in which police apprehend and process criminals (Beat the sh** out of suspects until they admit to a crime they may / may not have committed [this is of course assuming that they have already been paid off to give a s*** in the first place]),

-the methodology involved in processing customs (Vat added on both freight charges and insurance those of which (the freight charges and insurance) were obligatorily added for postal items. Not to mention negotiating the customs officer fee for any containers you want to bring into the country),

-the very psychology of the people (Hmmm, why keep trying to do anything when it can result in my loss of face... Did Nikola Tesla ever shy away from failure?

Nope he pressed on and invented many of the things we enjoy today, such as AC Current used to power our homes, Wireless communications, etc......

Did Thomas Edison ever shy away from failure?

Nope, he pressed on and said "I'm gonna steal that Persian Farang ideas!!")

Given the above, I naturally assumed (in the same manner that I assume everyone needs water and food to survive), that lawyers, teachers, doctors, pretty much any profession can easily be swayed to the dark side (said in a James Earl Jones voice) when a few baht goes their way.

[snowgard]

It's more costly, but you can have a second corporation hold the other 51% shares. This radically increases your share ownership. You can also partner up with a u.s. citizen, this way you can use many strategies to protect your shares, such as loans, mortgages, liens etc. It's illegal for a foreinger to borrow or lend money to a Thai, making most of these strategies useless, as they wont stand up in court.

Or you can count to ten, then just burn your investment and save the time and headaches.

Or just take your dough to Costa Rica. 130 year old govt banks paying 8% a year. Was paying 16.9% in 2008-2010!

Do you have a link to back up the statement "It's illegal for a foreinger to borrow or lend money to a Thai" as that does not tie in to my experience?

This is for sure 100% illegal. Farangs are not allowed to hold more as 49%. And on this way you want to hold 73,99%.

Some corrupt laywers will tell you, you can do it. But it is illegal. And if you want to risk all: DO IT!!!

It is the same with all this non operational companies what farangs set up for own land. It is illegal and if they check it you will be the big loser!!!

[inquisitive lobster]

Hi Everyone,

Firstly thank you for contributing to this forum and thanks for the responses some of which were helpful whilst others were entertaining to read nonetheless.

I actually wanted to know if a foreigner owned a company through BOI processes in which he/she (along with two other Non-Thais) can own 100% of the company, can this company still get stolen in a similar manner as I mentioned before?

Thanks.

IL