Chinese tourist death sparks dive industry safety shake-up

[kiwikeith]

I am astonished that this is not already a diving requirement. A valid medical certicate should be standard.

A valid investigation int whether there was foul play here would be hopefull.

[tuanku]

Diving is like all adventure activities, there are risks and these are accepted by the diver. However the job of the dive company is to assess and minimise those risks. This the company concerned clearly did not effectively do. They are responsible in part for the death of this diver and should be held accountable. The role of PADI is to supervise companies they license and ensure they are effective in their risk management. It is not clear whether this company was a PADI registered and approved company, but if they were, then PADI also share some (a little) of the responsibility. They make plenty of money through their licensing operation so should carry out frequent and diligent inspections and assessments. This is all independent of National regulation which, in Thailand can be ignored as it is unlikely to be informed or effective.

Padi, SSI etc are certification agencies for dive courses. They are not involved with fun divers.

This particular diver did not have fun

Yes, accepting a correction on your post is not always easy.

Customers without knowledge and experience of diving - fun divers - will take the PADI logo to be an indication that the company meets certain standards of safety. After all even the dive masters and instructors on a fun diving course will be PADI certified as instructors at a PADI registered dive school, that might be a reasonable assumption. The technical point that PADI certifies courses and not schools is not likely to register except with experts like yourself. And PADI does certify instructor/dive master courses too, right. They cannot have it both ways. if schools and instructors wave their PADI certificates around to convince fun divers to trust them, then the certification body does bear some responsibility if their certified personnel don't live up to the standards they are certified at. If they don't regulate then possibly they should think about doing so.

[FritsSikkink]

....how about laying criminal charges to begin.....

For which crime?

leaving your buddy alone, leaving a diver in the water

[FritsSikkink]

Not having a buddy was a serious error, maybe buddy left her.

Maybe not enough air in tank.

Maybe she had an extremely rare heart attack or something.

A medical cert will barely help, for example hole in the hearts, most people 1 in 4 don't know they have one, until you get the benz. No medical cert can find that, you need a contrast echo cardiogram. Its a well kept secret. Just pray you don't have one.

She was diving with a buddy.

so why didn't he/she warn anyone

[stevenl]

Not having a buddy was a serious error, maybe buddy left her.

Maybe not enough air in tank.

Maybe she had an extremely rare heart attack or something.

A medical cert will barely help, for example hole in the hearts, most people 1 in 4 don't know they have one, until you get the benz. No medical cert can find that, you need a contrast echo cardiogram. Its a well kept secret. Just pray you don't have one.

She was diving with a buddy.

so why didn't he/she warn anyone

How? Mobile?

[stevenl]

....how about laying criminal charges to begin.....

For which crime?

leaving your buddy alone, leaving a diver in the water

That would be leaving 2 divers. And yes, mistake, and yes, stupid, but I don't see any crime in that in Thailand.

[stevenl]

Diving is like all adventure activities, there are risks and these are accepted by the diver. However the job of the dive company is to assess and minimise those risks. This the company concerned clearly did not effectively do. They are responsible in part for the death of this diver and should be held accountable. The role of PADI is to supervise companies they license and ensure they are effective in their risk management. It is not clear whether this company was a PADI registered and approved company, but if they were, then PADI also share some (a little) of the responsibility. They make plenty of money through their licensing operation so should carry out frequent and diligent inspections and assessments. This is all independent of National regulation which, in Thailand can be ignored as it is unlikely to be informed or effective.

Padi, SSI etc are certification agencies for dive courses. They are not involved with fun divers.

This particular diver did not have fun

Yes, accepting a correction on your post is not always easy.

Customers without knowledge and experience of diving - fun divers - will take the PADI logo to be an indication that the company meets certain standards of safety. After all even the dive masters and instructors on a fun diving course will be PADI certified as instructors at a PADI registered dive school, that might be a reasonable assumption. The technical point that PADI certifies courses and not schools is not likely to register except with experts like yourself. And PADI does certify instructor/dive master courses too, right. They cannot have it both ways. if schools and instructors wave their PADI certificates around to convince fun divers to trust them, then the certification body does bear some responsibility if their certified personnel don't live up to the standards they are certified at. If they don't regulate then possibly they should think about doing so.

Sometimes I think you're right, sometimes not. This is to me a really 50-50 issue.

[FritsSikkink]

Not having a buddy was a serious error, maybe buddy left her.

Maybe not enough air in tank.

Maybe she had an extremely rare heart attack or something.

A medical cert will barely help, for example hole in the hearts, most people 1 in 4 don't know they have one, until you get the benz. No medical cert can find that, you need a contrast echo cardiogram. Its a well kept secret. Just pray you don't have one.

She was diving with a buddy.

so why didn't he/she warn anyone

How? Mobile?

the driver of the boat, the dive instructor. jesus and you are a diver?

[FritsSikkink]

....how about laying criminal charges to begin.....

For which crime?

leaving your buddy alone, leaving a diver in the water

That would be leaving 2 divers. And yes, mistake, and yes, stupid, but I don't see any crime in that in Thailand.

that you can't see it is sad

[stevenl]

Not having a buddy was a serious error, maybe buddy left her.

Maybe not enough air in tank.

Maybe she had an extremely rare heart attack or something.

A medical cert will barely help, for example hole in the hearts, most people 1 in 4 don't know they have one, until you get the benz. No medical cert can find that, you need a contrast echo cardiogram. Its a well kept secret. Just pray you don't have one.

She was diving with a buddy.

so why didn't he/she warn anyone

How? Mobile?

the driver of the boat, the dive instructor. jesus and you are a diver?

On the boat they did not notice anyone missing, which is the cause here, and divers don't take mobiles. Plus there ate reception issues.

They were left and there were no boats, how could they warn anybody?

[stevenl]

....how about laying criminal charges to begin.....

For which crime?

leaving your buddy alone, leaving a diver in the water

That would be leaving 2 divers. And yes, mistake, and yes, stupid, but I don't see any crime in that in Thailand.

that you can't see it is sad

What can't I see? What is the crime here according to Thai law?

[scubascuba3]

Sounds like to me:

Dive shop is to blame for not having strict safety measures, such as surface if you lose buddy. Checklist of people on boat.

Buddy needs a good shake for what he/she could have prevented.

i notice the post mortem results will be available by end of December, by then everyone except family would have forgotten about it, and im pretty sure nothing will be reported on here

[FritsSikkink]

Not having a buddy was a serious error, maybe buddy left her.

Maybe not enough air in tank.

Maybe she had an extremely rare heart attack or something.

A medical cert will barely help, for example hole in the hearts, most people 1 in 4 don't know they have one, until you get the benz. No medical cert can find that, you need a contrast echo cardiogram. Its a well kept secret. Just pray you don't have one.

She was diving with a buddy.

so why didn't he/she warn anyone

How? Mobile?

the driver of the boat, the dive instructor. jesus and you are a diver?

On the boat they did not notice anyone missing, which is the cause here, and divers don't take mobiles. Plus there ate reception issues.

They were left and there were no boats, how could they warn anybody?

the buddy would miss a person and should tell the others on the boat not to leave. the dive instructor(s) should do a head count and not give the GO to leave.

[FritsSikkink]

....how about laying criminal charges to begin.....

For which crime?

leaving your buddy alone, leaving a diver in the water

That would be leaving 2 divers. And yes, mistake, and yes, stupid, but I don't see any crime in that in Thailand.

that you can't see it is sad

What can't I see? What is the crime here according to Thai law?

leaving someone in the water and leave is gross misconduct.

[stevenl]

the buddy would miss a person and should tell the others on the boat not to leave. the dive instructor(s) should do a head count and not give the GO to leave.

The buddy was diving with the person who died. The boat did not know/notice there were people in the water.

Yes, your final remark makes sense, they should have done a head count and they should not have left.

[stevenl]

leaving someone in the water and leave is gross misconduct.

Is it in Thailand? Maybe your knowledge of Thai law is bigger than mine, but I seriously doubt it.

[MaeJoMTB]

Medical certificate is a smokescreen to distract from the real problems.

Those being,

1) Where was her dive buddy?

2) Why did the boat drive off without checking all passengers were present?

Many of you have already been distracted from the root causes of the death.

Edited December 5, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[stevenl]

Medical certificate is a smokescreen to distract from the real problems.

Those being,

1) Where was her dive buddy?

2) Why did the boat drive off without checking all passengers were present?

Many of you have already been distracted from the root causes of the death.

Both those questions have been answered multiple times already.

Unfortunately they can't be answered satisfactory.

Edited December 5, 2015 by stevenl

[FritsSikkink]

leaving someone in the water and leave is gross misconduct.

Is it in Thailand? Maybe your knowledge of Thai law is bigger than mine, but I seriously doubt it.

you doubt it, what sort of business are you running? you have a contract with somebody to bring them to a divespot, show them around AND bring them back. so breach of contract to start with. leaving them floating in an sea on their own is bringing them in a dangerous situation which is a criminal offense. not only in Thailand but everywhere.

[FritsSikkink]

people seem to be right when they say the diving industry has a lot of cowboys here

[2fishin2]

Sorry to say its called personal responsibility of the dive shops and employees. Also, lets include the boat owners,captains, and crew. Farangs get no pass on it either as we all know they run the operations.

[stevenl]

leaving someone in the water and leave is gross misconduct.

Is it in Thailand? Maybe your knowledge of Thai law is bigger than mine, but I seriously doubt it.

you doubt it, what sort of business are you running? you have a contract with somebody to bring them to a divespot, show them around AND bring them back. so breach of contract to start with. leaving them floating in an sea on their own is bringing them in a dangerous situation which is a criminal offense. not only in Thailand but everywhere.

Yes, very dangerous as has been proven. But a criminal offense, as you claim, no.

[stevenl]

Sorry to say its called personal responsibility of the dive shops and employees. Also, lets include the boat owners,captains, and crew. Farangs get no pass on it either as we all know they run the operations.

No farang involved here as dive shop owner, instructor, tour leader, captain or in any other capacity.

[MaeJoMTB]

Medical certificate is a smokescreen to distract from the real problems.

Those being,

1) Where was her dive buddy?

2) Why did the boat drive off without checking all passengers were present?

Many of you have already been distracted from the root causes of the death.

Both those questions have been answered multiple times already.

Unfortunately they can't be answered satisfactory.

If they can't be answered then it's criminal negligence on the part of the dive operator.

Their duty is to ensure there is a dive buddy, and divers are logged on and off the boat.

If the dive operator is unable to answer, their operation should be closed down.

[stevenl]

Medical certificate is a smokescreen to distract from the real problems.

Those being,

1) Where was her dive buddy?

2) Why did the boat drive off without checking all passengers were present?

Many of you have already been distracted from the root causes of the death.

Both those questions have been answered multiple times already.

Unfortunately they can't be answered satisfactory.

If they can't be answered then it's criminal negligence on the part of the dive operator.

Their duty is to ensure there is a dive buddy, and divers are logged on and off the boat.

If the dive operator is unable to answer, their operation should be closed down.

Huh? The questions have been answered, did you read?

[FritsSikkink]

leaving someone in the water and leave is gross misconduct.

Is it in Thailand? Maybe your knowledge of Thai law is bigger than mine, but I seriously doubt it.

you doubt it, what sort of business are you running? you have a contract with somebody to bring them to a divespot, show them around AND bring them back. so breach of contract to start with. leaving them floating in an sea on their own is bringing them in a dangerous situation which is a criminal offense. not only in Thailand but everywhere.

Yes, very dangerous as has been proven. But a criminal offense, as you claim, no.

dream on

[stevenl]

leaving someone in the water and leave is gross misconduct.

Is it in Thailand? Maybe your knowledge of Thai law is bigger than mine, but I seriously doubt it.

you doubt it, what sort of business are you running? you have a contract with somebody to bring them to a divespot, show them around AND bring them back. so breach of contract to start with. leaving them floating in an sea on their own is bringing them in a dangerous situation which is a criminal offense. not only in Thailand but everywhere.

Yes, very dangerous as has been proven. But a criminal offense, as you claim, no.

dream on

I'm not the one dreaming or hoping for something here.

[FritsSikkink]

I'm not the one dreaming or hoping for something here.

<deleted>

ection 232

Whoever, by any means whatever, renders any of the following conveyances to be in the condition as likely to cause danger to a person:

(1) Sea-going vessel, airplane, train or tram;

(2) Motor-car used for public transportation; or

(3) Steam-boat or motor-boat of five tons upwards used for public transportation shall be punished with imprisonment of six months to seven years and fined of one thousand to fourteen thousand Baht.

www.ThaiLaws.com

[CharlieH]

Quotes cleaned up, remark removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

Debate/discuss the topic not the poster and DONT get personal with remarks.

[Jimi007]

I'm not the one dreaming or hoping for something here.

<deleted>

ection 232

Whoever, by any means whatever, renders any of the following conveyances to be in the condition as likely to cause danger to a person:

(1) Sea-going vessel, airplane, train or tram;

(2) Motor-car used for public transportation; or

(3) Steam-boat or motor-boat of five tons upwards used for public transportation shall be punished with imprisonment of six months to seven years and fined of one thousand to fourteen thousand Baht.

www.ThaiLaws.com

That gave me a good laugh!