Mukda Han (north East) Rocks, Or Not?

[gzu88bv]

Where, what and at what expense (travelling, hotel and food not included) has happened to an

Individual

Swiss, 63, divorced, semi-retired (not drawing government money yet), lived in Spain last 3 years, not fleeing from former wife(s), criminal record clean, stays in the house of a Thai lady (a teacher and officer), privileged to go anywhere in the world.

With rather poor postal service in Spain, embassies out of sight and not wanting to return to his home country for Thai visa, he took following

Steps

- Bought online a single trip ticket Alicante (Spain) to Dusseldorf (Germany)

- Bought online a return trip ticket Dusseldorf to Bangkok

- Entered BKK on 7/22/06 on a stamp valid till 8/20/2006 (the very fist time in his life)

- Did a visa run on 8/17/2006 to Vientiane (Laos)

Note: Laos visa guy did not accept his Euros or Thai Bath for the visa (cost $ 30.- for a 30 day stay), but only US Dollars to be bought expensively from a tout at the border, because currency exchange office at 09.15 am still closed.

- Applied at the Thai Embassy for a retirement visa and showed the officer a pdf-formatted online Swiss bank statement. Retirement visa was denied, but officer mentioned that if bank statement would be translated and legalized by Swiss Embassy such a visa would be issued next time within Thailand.

Note: Visa applications in Vientiane have to be turned in before 12 am and can only be withdrawn the next day after 2 pm.

- Entered Nong Khai on 8/18/2006 with tourist visa valid till 10/16/2006 (cost THB 1000.-)

- Phoned back home CREDIT SUISSE to issue a bank statement of his Euro account. Original bank letter carries date 9/14/2006 and two signatures telling in just a sentence or two that his account shows a balance of Euros ……, with no entries or withdrawals (amount is far more than the 800’000 required, in fact THB 5,3 Millions). Do not take offense!

- Spoke with his embassy here in BKK to legalize above letter. Was told that they would only legalize a paper from a translation service that they would approve of. Had the 1-page letter translated (cost THB 900.-) and Swiss Embassy legalized it in effect as follows:

Seen at the Swiss Embassy in Bangkok for legalization of the seal and/or signature of

….name of translator, …name of translation service, Bangkok.

The Swiss Embassy declines all responsibility regarding validity, authenticity or content of the enclosed document.

Swiss Embassy legalized on 9/29/2006, with their stamp and signature (cost THB 1200.-).

- Went just in case to a local hospital (government hospital) for a medical check up and requested a medical paper for Thai immigration, a document showing above all also his stats about Leprosy, Tuberculosis, TB, Elaphantiasis, Filarisis, Drug addiction, Alcoholism, Syphilis, etc. (mentioned on this board).

Thorough check up, was taken his blood, had to fill that little container (be careful maybe not too many “Laos” beer the night before and don’t smoke anything bad). Entered hospital 8 am, left 10.30 am with a Thai medical paper, stamped, signed and hopefully with his requested stats on it. Cost THB 240.-.

- Went on 9/10/2006 (7 days before tourist visa expires), ammunitioned with more paper, to Mukda Han Immigration Office and requested at the front desk at 8.32 am that his tourist visa gets changed to a non-immigrant O visa, extended to 365 days for retirement purposes and provided with multiple entries.

Explicitly the following paperwork was handed in, forms printed back to back, filled-out by hand and signed and his original signature on all of the photocopies (no money paid):

- his passport with departure card

- 2 copies each of his passport picture and signature page

- 2 copies each of his passport page with current Thai entry stamps and departure card

- 1 form TM.86 with one 4x6 cm photo (cost THB 2000.-)

- 1 form TM.7 with one 4x6 cm photo (cost THB 1900.-)

- 1 form TM.8 with one 4x6 cm photo (cost THB 3800.-)

- the original of his legalized bank statement

Outcome

The Officer at the Immigration Office in Mukda Han declined above request due to only 7 days left on my tourist visa. After he had read my paperwork he said everything could be done without any problems for me, if I came back to the same office in the afternoon with a non-immigrant O visa from Savannakhet. By the way, it was the same officer who told me the same story two weeks before when we met in Roi Et. When I asked him to extend my present tourist visa by 30 days, he just declined with no reasons and said explicitly, please go now to Thai Embassy in Savannakhet and come back again in the afternoon.

Well, what to do? Went to Thai Embassy in Savannakhet and guess what? Big discussion was going on between an officer, the Ambassador lady herself, myself and my lady, who is a government officer.

Now listen, first they said I would have to legalize my above mentioned bank statement by the Ministry of Foreign affairs as well. Second, I would have to transfer THB 800’000 into a Thai bank, get from the Thai bank a bank statement and a confirmation letter that I opened an account with them.

When I realized that my endeavour to obtain an O visa had no legs at all and that I would meet that Ambassador lady anyway no longer anymore, I wanted to hear how Savannakhet handles this visa crap:

The lady Ambassador herself literally told me that it is to her discretion to issue me no visa, any visa and whatever visa. Well I can accept and live with that, but not her inconsistency.

Upon my question to forget about the bank letter and just move in my money she said that I might not get what I asked for when I come back, but, if she pleases, I could maybe get an O visa from her.

When I asked her, how many visa she would issue for me considering the new rules after October 1, she said max. two 60 day visas per year, each one extendable by 30 days.

I also asked her if she would invest money as a tourist visa holder of a foreign country, even not knowing if she would ever be granted further visa of any kind. No answer from her of course. That same lady also told me that Vientiane is handling the visa matter the same way she does, since they both do operate within Laos.

I had also the chance to talk to a chap from South Carolina, who is retired and married to a Thai. He was until today an O visa holder and suggested to renew his O-visa there as well and walked out with the same visa as me. He was once of the opinion that once an O visa has been awarded, it will be renewed by another O visa again. No way.

Personal Side Note

Hey guys, you know what they are telling us. Show us the money and bring it to Thailand and then we see what we can do for you?

Of course, it was my own free choice to come here and I do not complain. But, I am glad that this quite costly hassle is over, at least for me. After 270 days counting from today I am outta here! I really do not need this crap, sorry. Anyway, still reporting back by form TM.47 every 90 days would be another nuisance and that stinks definitely, especially once a visa has been given.

After 30 years of visa jokes with Eastern block and African countries I think Thai regulations are top. As a frequent traveller I kindly ask you: Can you name me another country, where I have to literally observe the days and number of travels to get in and out of that country?

Nevertheless I had a great day, it was a good experience, we had a nice dinner and what made me really happy, when my lady, who is a government officer, told me that she got disgusted with the Abassador and how she used her power. And that is telling something….

P.S. At the Laos border they asked for the visa either US Dollars 35.- or THB 1700.

Many thanks to this great board and its members. Have a pleasant stay and treat your ladies the way it should be. Best wishes

gzu88bv

[Unknown]

Hey guys, you know what they are telling us. Show us the money and bring it to Thailand and then we see what we can do for you?

That's right, this is the way it is for the time being.

But well, not worse than in many other countries, I mean 'developping' countries.

And nobody should forget that Thailand is still one of them...

[lopburi3]

1. A tourist visa change should be done with 21 days or more remaining. Bangkok is currently making exceptions but that is the rule.

2. A retirement visa issued by a Consulate can only be on the basis of 800k on deposit. That was not what you should have been seeking.

3. What you did not have was a non immigrant visa and you were too late to make an in country change according to the 21 day rule so you were instructed to obtain a single entry non immigrant O visa. Once you had that you could return to Thailand and obtain the one year extension of stay for retirement.

It really appears to me that the immigration officer was trying to be helpful - a quick non immigrant visa and return should have solved your problem.

[aletta]

The paragraph that scares the sh!t out of me is the one about the South Carolina guy who could not get an "o" visa even though he is married to a Thai.All they would give is a tourist visa?

[lopburi3]

That is interesting. It takes several readings to get the full picture (at least for me). The poster should be OK with the tourist visa and be able to change at immigration now that he has more than 21 days remaining. The married person, if indeed a legal marriage, needs to find family income of 40k per month so that he can extend or perhaps make plans to settle in his home country. This seems to be the first report of a married person not being able to obtain a non immigrant visa so would like to be sure before anyone jumps to conclusions. It is possible not married, marriage certificate not presented, id card not presented or other reason.

[gzu88bv]

That is interesting. It takes several readings to get the full picture (at least for me). The poster should be OK with the tourist visa and be able to change at immigration now that he has more than 21 days remaining. The married person, if indeed a legal marriage, needs to find family income of 40k per month so that he can extend or perhaps make plans to settle in his home country. This seems to be the first report of a married person not being able to obtain a non immigrant visa so would like to be sure before anyone jumps to conclusions. It is possible not married, marriage certificate not presented, id card not presented or other reason.

Lopburi3, I really do appreciate very much your help and expertise. But that lady was not helpful at all, very arrogant and creates her own rules.

I learned from my sweetheart this morning that the lady Ambassador had confided to her yesterday that most foreigners coming to see her disdain her. Further evidence is given by the fact that the same lady had told my girl that she thinks that I am filthy rich by showing her a statement in the amount of 5.3 millions THB.

Lopburi3, please understand I do not want to make this a big issue. I am not happy, but I can live with it. I have been here for only a few weeks, but even at my age I learned again a few things and I have no problems to get help from others. By the way I can definitely speak for the American guy and yes it is true that he has to show now money and transfer 400k into Thailand and he has exactly the same reason not to do as I have. Some people think twice, before they move money with a tourist visa. I call that lottery!

Now comes Thai face. I have to admit, yesterday my little sweetheart made one little mistake and feels now so sorry for it. When we came back to Mukda Han Immigration she told the first officer there, as honest as she is, that we got denied the O visa and extension of 365 days (for retirement purposes) in Savannakhet and even told him the reasons why. By the way, neither the lady in Savannakhet nor that first officer could name us the place where we could get the legalization (Ministry of Foreign Affairs) for our bank letter. And now to the face issue: There was a second officer right next to the first officer in that little Mukda Han office who shouted through that little office to my girl in Thai that he could just not understand why we would not be granted now that O visa, the extension and multiple entry we asked for, since he believes that we fully qualify for.

Lopburi3, I will present you with my 3 options I see, whereby option 3 would be favoured:

Option 1: I first extend my present 60 day Tourist Visa by 30 days, try to get another Tourist Visa after that and then make just 3 border runs (no embassy visits) and hope everything goes well. What happens thereafter I cannot tell you right now.

Option 2: I go back to my home country and apply for the retirement visa there. There are a few problems too and serious ones. Since I am legally immatriculated here in Bangkok with Swiss Embassy, any paper the Thai Embassy in Switzerland would ask me to hand in, would have to be legalized here in Bangkok. Thai Embassy may now ask for 800k deposit in a Thai bank too. Legalization and the back and forth hassle with any further paper need, would be even worse than it has been. Also keep in mind that my present bank statement carries the date 9/14.2006. And do not forget my 2 tourist visas and all and all the stamps in my passport. To me this option seems screwed up and honestly, I just do not see it.

Option 3: Lopburi3, can you outline me precisely what you would do in my present situation. My Tourist Visa is valid until December 7 now and can be extended for 30 days locally. I am definitely not going to move money into this land! NO NO NO NO, no way, before I have a decent visa in my passport. I might be standing one day at the waterfront of Thai Immigration and no longer be admitted. Furthermore, I have to tell you Mukda Han and Vientiane are definitely out of question, they know my case and also want to keep face. Should I try another Immigration and what should I really ask for and present as paper. When you say “A retirement visa issued by a Consulate can only be on the basis of 800k as deposit, are you saying at the same time, that there might be an Immigration ready to let me have the extension just on what I show right now (a legalized bank statement)? I had that impression with the first officer at Mukda Han, whom I had been in contact with twice, but my girl blew it with her honesty.

Please advise me in detail. Thank you very much

gzu88bv

[lopburi3]

As I mentioned it has taken several reads and am still not sure if I have your saga right so if I have made the wrong assumptions apologize but it still seems that people have been trying to help but there have been misunderstandings.

1. Retirement O-A is applied for and approved in your home country with a bank account of 800k. I have never heard of anyone being able to do in a third country, if not a resident, such a Laos but it appears the Consulate (there is no Ambassador at a Consulate) was willing to do for you if you submitted them the required paperwork. Believe you may have misjudged. There is no way you would qualify for a multi entry O visa and it appears you did not ask for a single entry O visa but for a retirement O-A.

2. Retirement extension of stay of a non immigrant O visa (or from tourist with change step) is done by immigration in Thailand with either 800k in local bank account or 65k income/pension verified by your Embassy or a combination of the two.

I would either open account and transfer the money (your visa class makes no difference - it can be transferred out or used so do not understand your not wanting to take the normal path). But if you are not willing to transfer the money can you obtain proof of income and use that method? They both can be done inside Thailand at immigration in a few minutes as long as you have 21 days or more remaining on your entry. If you can not do this then a return to home and apply there would be my advise (I don't understand why your Embassy would have to be involved) but guess it is some legal/tax move on your part.

[gzu88bv]

I want to be understood.....

Lopburi3, thank you for your understanding and to put up with me. This will definitely be my last post. I swear.

Have you ever been confiscated of a bank account yourself in a foreign country? This is just a question, do not answer. Or shall we make it a little bit easier, had you ever to wait for a year or two before you could transfer back hard earned money that had to be released for whatever reasons not by the bank itself but by any other circumstances?

When a Swiss citizien goes abroad and that is what I did, I told lovely Switzerland good by and my papers are automatically returned to a specific place (to explain that in detail is of no interest). Once I return again to Switzerland and tell lovely Switzerland here I am again the same papers will be reactivated and you have to pay my dues there again.

When I say that I were immatriculated with Swiss Embassy, that means, if I need a legalized paper from any institution in Switzerland, Swiss Embassy here in BKK will do it for me. And Thai Embassy in Zurich may i.e. ask me to hand in my criminal record and this legalized, who knows, and then my embassy here would get involved. This is not the first time I live abroad, but it works that way in our country and has nothing to do that I can always return to my home country. My residency right now is Thailand.

There is no tax evasion or money matter you mentioned. You should be a little careful there. I don’t do such things. But I also do not put money into a shithole, what in fact a tourist visa is. I am interested in a legal long term stay in Thailand, give that visa a name what ever you want.

Thailand as it stands right now, my present visa situation and with the military junta here I just think that it is not the safest thing to do to bring bigger money over here. My monthly transfers from my Swiss bank account into the account of my lady are a far better solution at the moment. I of course, and if people would read my lengthy saga a bit more carefully, I do not live from air and water and the amount of money I mentioned already scared that government lady in Savannakhet. Hey I did not think I was that complicated and again please understand that I cannot show income, since I do not have income, and I cannot show government money, since I will draw such only in roughly 18 months when I turn 65. It is not a money matter, it is a matter how safe your money is. Does this mean, that I just do not qualify? I put in here a link, where is says differently:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/ba...p?page=service#

Once you get to this link click “Required document” on the lower left

After that click on “Change Visa” in the middle of the page.

After that click “For retirement in Thailand (Non-O) and voila:

What does it say under point 6 and 7?

Now to my saga, what I wanted is to tell the people on this board what happened to me in Nong Khai and in Savannakhet. Everything I am talking about in that lengthy saga is what happened when I arrived on 7/22 for the first time. My intention was and still is to tell people what works and what did not work and what mistakes were made.

How it stands right now, I am happy, but I must admit the first officer at Immigration in Mukda Han blew it badly. First he should have given me an extension on my 7-days-left-Tourist Visa and not send me to Savannakhet. Second he should have issued me an O Visa (change by form T.86). Later on he should have given me an extension to 365 days, what he once said he would do. But this guy is an absolute zero, sorry I really mean it. And now he blows the same horn as the lady in Savannakhet (I give a ###### what status she has, but she has the saying there) who asked for a further legalization of my bank statement, money in a Thai bank, etc. etc. But none of these two twits could tell us where i.e. I could get the lasted legalization I never heard of done.

My lady is not stupid and I explain to her very precisely and in detail what I usually want. We had met with this Mukda Han twit twice before and asked him what we should do, but to tell you the truth, he never gave me the impression that he understands his trade. How come that when we met again yesterday afternoon, he suddenly was talking about a legalization of which he had not the slightest knowledge of. Very agonizing, I tell you.

Can you also imagine what happened yesterday Thai face wise, when the second officer shouted to my lady that he does really not understand why we are not given that O-visa and the extension.

Now you may understand my saga and my story and all this has become a face matter in Savannakhet and in Mukda Han and I cannot go back to this people.

Now I want your expertise where I should go, what I should really say and what I should hand in at the time. As honest people as we are we screwed these guys, when we (and I include my lady who was very helpful in translating and instructing me to always say nice words and do the wave thing to these twits) by presenting them our case as it is. Do you get the full picture now? I hope that clarifies. Maybe I am too stupid and naïve to understand all this.

gzu88bv

[Thaddeus]

Originally posted a saga ago

Lopburi3, I really do appreciate very much your help and expertise. But that lady was not helpful at all, very arrogant and creates her own rules.

I met 'that lady' a few weeks ago.... she was very helpful, chatty and friendly.... she was very busy and had had to attend to some short notice meetings, but she still had the time to chat to me.

Perhaps being aware of what you need to prepare beforehand is the key, perhaps when you are told that 'all is not ok' you respond with a smile and enquire what you need to do may be the best course of action..... did you do that?

[lopburi3]

If you are not willing or able to meet the 65k income or 800k deposit or combination you are not going to obtain a retirement extension of stay. They are the requirements.