FLR income requirement

[stuartsko]

This is why I pay my accountant 4-5 k a year... Who are a very prominent firm... Or I could just take advice from some guy on a forum

Edited December 15, 2015 by stuartsko

[stuartsko]

2) It is no business of UKVI how much an employer chooses to pay their employees; even if they are family members.

3) Many self employed people employ spouses and other family members in some capacity and pay them a salary in order to reduce their own tax liability.

They do so usually on the advice of their accountant; any competent accountant would surely offer such advice.

HMRC are fully aware of this; it is not illegal; provided it is genuine employment, proper records are kept etc..

Tax Implications of Employing Family Members

That link gives some rules that must be followed. The first is:

Your relative has to be hired to do real work at a proper commercial wages rate. HMRC are likely to query payments of £50 per hour to a 5-year-old who is ‘employed’ to take telephone messages!

So you are saying that UKVI must accept as real a salary that HMRC would disregard as contrived for tax avoidance. What is your basis for this statement?

Why don't you read the rest of the link you posted rather than the 1st 5 lines... Particularly the part on Ltd companies

[Richard W]

This is why I pay my accountant 4-5 k a year... Who are a very prominent firm... Or I could just take advice from some guy on a forum

I imagine they'll be very wary of giving you immigration advice. I recommend that you get some skilled immigration advice. I have a horrible feeling that your wife's appeal from overseas on this issue would be a test case - i.e. the law may at present be unknown.

Just possibly 7 by 7 will come up with evidence that HMRC's acquiescence is good enough for UKVI. I don't know HMRC's policy on overpaid wives on company books; I would imagine it's based on a trade-off between revenue extracted and tribunal costs incurred. It's conceivable that UKVI would accept your wife's inflated pay on the basis that it shows that you as a couple have the income, and apply their nominally non-existent discretion by accepting the claimed earned income as genuine.

[stuartsko]

My wife would not be overpaid, she would earn the same as the staff that operate the machines... The only advice I have taken from this forum is from 7x7 who advised I could use her income alone.. 7x7 and tony m are the most respected members of this forum and I trust what he says.. The rest is down to me, my accountant and my knowledge of running a multi million pound company for the last 12 years... I don't even know why 7x7 continues to give the much valued advise on this forum as he is constantly up against trolls... So thank you once again 7x7 for your valued advice and sorry you had to put up with the ridiculous comments from people that haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

Edited December 15, 2015 by stuartsko

[Richard W]

My wife would not be overpaid, she would earn the same as the staff that operate the machines...

Then why on earth did you give us the impression that you would be inflating her salary? You implied that when you stated that you were considering increasing her pay for tax reasons and also when you asserted that what she is paid is entirely up to you.

[stuartsko]

Because I am giving her a pay rise for tax reasons... But £20 an hour is not excessive.. Have you read the entire thread??? You didn't even read all of the link you posted which proved my point... You started giving me advice on the legality of my wife's earnings then in your last post you said you didn't know hmrc policy on over paid wives... If you don't know then keep your un qualified advice to your yourself

Edited December 15, 2015 by stuartsko

[stuartsko]

Just possibly 7 by 7 will come up with evidence that HMRC's acquiescence is good enough for UKVI. I don't know HMRC's policy on overpaid wives on company books; I would imagine it's based on a trade-off between revenue extracted and tribunal costs incurred. It's conceivable that UKVI would accept your wife's inflated pay on the basis that it shows that you as a couple have the income, and apply their nominally non-existent discretion by accepting the claimed earned income as genuine.

[wooloomooloo]

I would love to see the op get this one past HMRC if they went to town on a tax investigation.

It's got nothing to do with HMRC.

Life doesn't have to be so complicated, which is what the OP and his wife are clearly aiming for.

I really haven't witnessed so much dross posted by so many in the sub-forum for some considerable time.

Ignore the naysayers, stuartsko.

[stuartsko]

I would love to see the op get this one past HMRC if they went to town on a tax investigation.

It's got nothing to do with HMRC.

Life doesn't have to be so complicated, which is what the OP and his wife are clearly aiming for.

I really haven't witnessed so much dross posted by so many in the sub-forum for some considerable time.

Ignore the naysayers, stuartsko.

Thanks for your comment... Life doesn't have to be one big conspiracy either.

[7by7]

7by7 you say " "Income from others who live in the same household" means people who are neither the applicant nor sponsor."

Where does it say in the rules that this does not mean people who are the applicant or sponsor?

The only reason I can see for having this rule is that it is meant to cover the applicant and sponsor or else what would be the point of having this exclusion.

I suggest that you read "4. Sources for meeting the financial requirement" in full.

4.1 deals with acceptable sources, and as previously shown this includes the sponsor's earned income, the applicant's earned income if they are already in the UK with permission to work or a combination of both..

4.2 deals with unacceptable sources, and includes income from others who live in the same household.

Having said in 4.1 that the earned income of the sponsor and/or applicant is acceptable, it is obvious that 'others' does not include the applicant!

It does include anyone else living in the same household as the applicant and sponsor, with the exception below; a situation which is not uncommon. It could be that the couple are living with the sponsor's parents, as my wife, step daughter and I did at first; or perhaps the sponsor has adult children who are working; maybe they have a lodger; etc., etc..

So the exclusion is there for the obvious reason of making it clear that only the sponsor's and/or applicant's income can be used, nobody else's; with the one exception specified, namely "any dependent child of the applicant who has turned 18 and continues to be counted towards the higher income threshold the applicant has to meet until they qualify for settlement."

[7by7]

2) It is no business of UKVI how much an employer chooses to pay their employees; even if they are family members.

3) Many self employed people employ spouses and other family members in some capacity and pay them a salary in order to reduce their own tax liability.

They do so usually on the advice of their accountant; any competent accountant would surely offer such advice.

HMRC are fully aware of this; it is not illegal; provided it is genuine employment, proper records are kept etc..

Tax Implications of Employing Family Members

That link gives some rules that must be followed. The first is:

Your relative has to be hired to do real work at a proper commercial wages rate. HMRC are likely to query payments of £50 per hour to a 5-year-old who is ‘employed’ to take telephone messages!

So you are saying that UKVI must accept as real a salary that HMRC would disregard as contrived for tax avoidance. What is your basis for this statement?

No, I am not saying that at all; read it again, especially the part where I said " it is not illegal; provided it is genuine employment, proper records are kept etc.. then read the link again which describes the rules for various situations and circumstances.

Obviously, in the application all the relevant evidence specified in Appendix FM-SE still needs to be provided.

One last time, I hope:

• Employing a family member, including spouse, is not illegal; provided one follows the rules, which I'm sure Stuart has done. Even if the main purpose of employing that family member is to reduce one's own tax liability. Remember that tax avoidance is perfectly legal; it's tax evasion which is illegal.
• If the applicant is in the UK with permission to work then their legal income can be used on it's own to meet the financial requirement.

In the extremely unlikely event of UKVI contacting HMRC to check on the legitimacy of Stuarts wife's employment and income, as he seems to have stayed well within the rules then there would be no problems.

Edited December 16, 2015 by 7by7

[durhamboy]

Stuart - you are the one who started this thread and came looking for advice. It seems to me that you only want to hear advice that suits your purpose. If you think what I and others say is moronic then that is absolutely fine. We have no axes to grind and we are just trying to help. Maybe what you are proposing will work. Frankly I don't think it will because, as I've already pointed out, you cannot receive income from someone in the same household. Of course income can be combined as 7by7 says but that is not the same as income which comes out of the pocket of someone in the same household.

If what 7by7 is true then the ridiculous scenario I outlined of a couple with just £10,000 savings (see above) would be granted FLR. That cannot be right and section 4.2 means that it will not be accepted. I see nowhere in the rules that says section 4.2 does not mean applicant and sponsor. Slightly more complicated in your case because, as I understand it, you are a shareholder in a company. At the end of the day it's your wife's visa and your money (i.e. visa fee) so you do what the hell you like.

Finally to you and 7by7 - try and be a little more polite when dealing with advice that doesn't fit with your own views of the visa rules. Just dismissing other views as moronic and thinking that the rules are simple demonstrates great ignorance from both of you. I'm an ex-commercial lawyer and the Financial Regulations is a long and complex document that even I have trouble getting my head around. Good luck.

[el2004]

If his wife earns excess 18600 what does it matter about Stuart earns. He could go on the doll and have no earnings wouldn't matter. Your 10000 savings example probably could work if it was all set up properly but it's not really a financially viable way to achieve at renewal stage. I'm sure Stuart really could pay his wife what he wishes for the work. To be honest I've been looking at employing my wife at 19k per year also. It would make our application a hell a lot easier come renewal and also dividend changing next year won't be as efficient. Also don't forget his wife earning 19k will be benefitting all pay her paying tax and insurance and the company contribution that will be going back into the economy. Good luck Stuart would love to hear how you get on

[stuartsko]

Stuart - you are the one who started this thread and came looking for advice. It seems to me that you only want to hear advice that suits your purpose. If you think what I and others say is moronic then that is absolutely fine. We have no axes to grind and we are just trying to help. Maybe what you are proposing will work. Frankly I don't think it will because, as I've already pointed out, you cannot receive income from someone in the same household. Of course income can be combined as 7by7 says but that is not the same as income which comes out of the pocket of someone in the same household.

If what 7by7 is true then the ridiculous scenario I outlined of a couple with just £10,000 savings (see above) would be granted FLR. That cannot be right and section 4.2 means that it will not be accepted. I see nowhere in the rules that says section 4.2 does not mean applicant and sponsor. Slightly more complicated in your case because, as I understand it, you are a shareholder in a company. At the end of the day it's your wife's visa and your money (i.e. visa fee) so you do what the hell you like.

Finally to you and 7by7 - try and be a little more polite when dealing with advice that doesn't fit with your own views of the visa rules. Just dismissing other views as moronic and thinking that the rules are simple demonstrates great ignorance from both of you. I'm an ex-commercial lawyer and the Financial Regulations is a long and complex document that even I have trouble getting my head around. Good luck.

Let's get one thing straight Durham boy.. The advice I asked was can I use my wife's earnings alone which was answered before you stuck your oar in with your uneducated comments... Your interpretation of events are moronic.. I don't believe for one minute you have ever been a commercial lawyer, anyone with half a brain can see what you have posted is ridiculous... And if by some chance you were any kind of commercial lawyer I can understand the ex bit entirely Edited December 16, 2015 by stuartsko

[durhamboy]

So stuart you think that a couple with just £10k in the bank and no income can get a visa? Can you please answer that before you call me a moron again?

You say that the only advice you were looking for was if you could use your wife's earnings alone. So wonderful you knows all about the financial regs of visas EXCEPT the very basic thing that you are asking about. Of course you can just use your wife's earnings. What I don't think you can do is pay her out of your pocket because in that case you contravene section 4.2 in my opinion.

Your response to that is that I am moronic. So you know everything - go ahead and risk a rejection.

[Trevor1809]

My wife would not be overpaid, she would earn the same as the staff that operate the machines... The only advice I have taken from this forum is from 7x7 who advised I could use her income alone.. 7x7 and tony m are the most respected members of this forum and I trust what he says.. The rest is down to me, my accountant and my knowledge of running a multi million pound company for the last 12 years... I don't even know why 7x7 continues to give the much valued advise on this forum as he is constantly up against trolls... So thank you once again 7x7 for your valued advice and sorry you had to put up with the ridiculous comments from people that haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

I thought you said that you were employing her as a cleaner? Now you are paying her as if she operated the machines. Contrary to what 7by7 says, from HMRC's perspective, no you can't employ who ever you like, to do what ever you say they do, for what ever salary you like. Otherwise I could employ my son to do computer programming or clean the office or run errands, pay him the tax free threshold then get £10600 off of my taxable salary. I think that there is a degree of acceptance by HMRC in husbands (or wives) employing their spouse but they are within their right to reject it as tax avoidance, which it is quite frankly.

The point is it is totally contrived, the same as MPs employing their family to admin jobs.

Personally I don't care what you do but to say this is zero risk isn't right.

[Trevor1809]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

[Richard W]

2) It is no business of UKVI how much an employer chooses to pay their employees; even if they are family members.

So you are saying that UKVI must accept as real a salary that HMRC would disregard as contrived for tax avoidance. What is your basis for this statement?

No, I am not saying that at all; read it again, especially the part where I said " it is not illegal; provided it is genuine employment, proper records are kept etc.. then read the link again which describes the rules for various situations and circumstances.

I have, and I paid particular attention to the 'etc'. The advice that you referenced, and what advice I can find on-line, all imply that the rate of pay should be commercially reasonable, and not be excessively generous. You stated that the pay level, in itself, was no concern of UKVI's. From the tenor of advice, it has clearly been a concern of HMRC, though it seems that the threatened clamp down on underpayment came to nothing. (Underpayment is a favourite trick of labour-only contractors; they convert their pay from earned income to dividends, saving on tax in its various forms.) Stuartsko assures us that his wife's pay will clearly be commercially justifiable. I suggest Mrs Stuartsko include evidence that she is not being overpaid, to prevent UKVI jumping to the conclusion that her rate of pay includes a consideration for being Mrs Stuartsko and treating her stated income as attempted deception. Correcting such an error on appeal will be poor satisfaction if she has to appeal from abroad, as would seem to be the case once the current immigration bill becomes law.

I hope that the concern about Mrs Stuartsko's income being treated as derived from Stuartsko is unfounded. The purpose of the rule would be to stop income being counted twice, and clearly the income Mrs Stuartsko receives is not derived from the income of Stuartsko. <sarcasm>UKVI can be relied upon to correctly apply the letter and spirit of the financial requirements, which are equitable, and would never ever wrongly suspect Stuartsko of financial impropriety.</sarcasm>

[stuartsko]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

Trevor I thought you ran your own business??? If you did you would know that all modern wages packages are now integrated with hmrc and submit online... All the forms are now downloaded through the wages packages directly from hmrc... Why don't you know this???? Judging from your comments I dread to think what kind of business you run.. I wouldn't trust you to run a corner shop

[Trevor1809]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

Trevor I thought you ran your own business??? If you did you would know that all modern wages packages are now integrated with hmrc and submit online... All the forms are now downloaded through the wages packages directly from hmrc... Why don't you know this???? Judging from your comments I dread to think what kind of business you run.. I wouldn't trust you to run a corner shop

Well you completely missed the point so I will elaborate. Who said anything about pressing the submit button. You can produce a pay slip without submitting to HMRC. No they are not generated by HMRC. Only if you chose to use their s/w package. I use a third party package because I could never get their package to work on my computer. At the year end you have a load of fake pay slips. So having produced the iffy pay slip do a roll back the submit a zero return to keep HMRC happy. I was very generous to you and did not suggest anything suspicious but since you want to raise the tempo if you wife's FLR is a year way I don't see why you aren't planning to get the accounts in order to submit with the FLR application. You painted this up as ruse to pay your wife to avoid getting into the 40% tax bracket so by upping your wife's salary to £18600 you avoid 40% tax and she alone meets the earnings requirement.

Well that is one thing but what I don't get is why you are doing this to avoid the hassle of submitting the paperwork since this would have to be generated anyway for company purposes which leaves me to believe that there is far more to this than meets the eye.

I knew that my problem was getting the 2014/15 accounts in time to meet my wife's FLR application so I had the fore thought to get the accountant into gear to produce the accounts early ready for the FLR.

The next problem I have is that the ILR is in May 2017 so no way can I get 2016/17 accounts in time. I am now closing the financial year in December to run two full 12 month Jan - Dec years.

I haven't thrown up my hands and said this is all too difficult lets pay the wife £18600 a year as cleaner or dogs body and I can forget submitting the company stuff.

Zero risk? Well your choice if yours if you wish to risk a rejection. 7by7 says this is perfectly legal. I am suspicious as to why you are so keen to avoid having to submit legitimate paper work.

[stuartsko]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

If you were earring cash in hand and set a company up to use you cash in hand as earnings then you would be legit.. My god you just get better don't you

[stuartsko]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

Trevor I thought you ran your own business??? If you did you would know that all modern wages packages are now integrated with hmrc and submit online... All the forms are now downloaded through the wages packages directly from hmrc... Why don't you know this???? Judging from your comments I dread to think what kind of business you run.. I wouldn't trust you to run a corner shop

Well you completely missed the point so I will elaborate. Who said anything about pressing the submit button. You can produce a pay slip without submitting to HMRC. No they are not generated by HMRC. Only if you chose to use their s/w package. I use a third party package because I could never get their package to work on my computer. At the year end you have a load of fake pay slips. So having produced the iffy pay slip do a roll back the submit a zero return to keep HMRC happy. I was very generous to you and did not suggest anything suspicious but since you want to raise the tempo if you wife's FLR is a year way I don't see why you aren't planning to get the accounts in order to submit with the FLR application. You painted this up as ruse to pay your wife to avoid getting into the 40% tax bracket so by upping your wife's salary to £18600 you avoid 40% tax and she alone meets the earnings requirement.

Well that is one thing but what I don't get is why you are doing this to avoid the hassle of submitting the paperwork since this would have to be generated anyway for company purposes which leaves me to believe that there is far more to this than meets the eye.

I knew that my problem was getting the 2014/15 accounts in time to meet my wife's FLR application so I had the fore thought to get the accountant into gear to produce the accounts early ready for the FLR.

The next problem I have is that the ILR is in May 2017 so no way can I get 2016/17 accounts in time. I am now closing the financial year in December to run two full 12 month Jan - Dec years.

I haven't thrown up my hands and said this is all too difficult lets pay the wife £18600 a year as cleaner or dogs body and I can forget submitting the company stuff.

Zero risk? Well your choice if yours if you wish to risk a rejection. 7by7 says this is perfectly legal. I am suspicious as to why you are so keen to avoid having to submit legitimate paper work.

Well the forms wouldn't look genuine would they... You have to press the submit button to get the forms... My word just keep digging deeper.. If you read my posts properly I was doing it to reduce my tax liability... I'm already well into the 40% tax bracket... You can produce the wage skips with any package but not the p60 which I would be including in my wife's application... Also my company has been trading 12years and has a massive online presence on reviews forums etc, would be very obvious it isn't a company that has been set up for 6 months to filter some money through one of your Dodgey wages packages... Really I can't get my breath... How did you ever end up with your own company????

Edited December 16, 2015 by stuartsko

[stuartsko]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

Trevor I thought you ran your own business??? If you did you would know that all modern wages packages are now integrated with hmrc and submit online... All the forms are now downloaded through the wages packages directly from hmrc... Why don't you know this???? Judging from your comments I dread to think what kind of business you run.. I wouldn't trust you to run a corner shop

Well you completely missed the point so I will elaborate. Who said anything about pressing the submit button. You can produce a pay slip without submitting to HMRC. No they are not generated by HMRC. Only if you chose to use their s/w package. I use a third party package because I could never get their package to work on my computer. At the year end you have a load of fake pay slips. So having produced the iffy pay slip do a roll back the submit a zero return to keep HMRC happy. I was very generous to you and did not suggest anything suspicious but since you want to raise the tempo if you wife's FLR is a year way I don't see why you aren't planning to get the accounts in order to submit with the FLR application. You painted this up as ruse to pay your wife to avoid getting into the 40% tax bracket so by upping your wife's salary to £18600 you avoid 40% tax and she alone meets the earnings requirement.

Well that is one thing but what I don't get is why you are doing this to avoid the hassle of submitting the paperwork since this would have to be generated anyway for company purposes which leaves me to believe that there is far more to this than meets the eye.

I knew that my problem was getting the 2014/15 accounts in time to meet my wife's FLR application so I had the fore thought to get the accountant into gear to produce the accounts early ready for the FLR.

The next problem I have is that the ILR is in May 2017 so no way can I get 2016/17 accounts in time. I am now closing the financial year in December to run two full 12 month Jan - Dec years.

I haven't thrown up my hands and said this is all too difficult lets pay the wife £18600 a year as cleaner or dogs body and I can forget submitting the company stuff.

Zero risk? Well your choice if yours if you wish to risk a rejection. 7by7 says this is perfectly legal. I am suspicious as to why you are so keen to avoid having to submit legitimate paper work.

Well the forms wouldn't look genuine would they... You have to press the submit button to get the forms... My word just keep digging deeper.. If you read my posts properly I was doing it to reduce my tax liability... I'm already well into the 40% tax bracket... You can produce the wage skips with any package but not the p60 which I would be including in my wife's application... Also my company has been trading 12years and has a massive online presence on reviews forums etc, would be very obvious it isn't a company that has been set up for 6 months to filter some money through one of your Dodgey wages packages... Really I can't get my breath... How did you ever end up with your own company????

Also my wife earns her money and grafts, she works 30 hours a week treading in sawdust and shit every day, she gets inside machines and cleans and oils them, she fills the airline bottles up with oil, dismantles the ducting systems and cleans them.. Why shouldn't she get paid the same as an operator.. What my wife does is hard graft, £20 an hour is easily justifiable.., I don't know what your wife is capable of and I don't care... I don't pre judge people's situations like you do.. But one thing I do know from the comments you have posted is you will never go far, and haven't got a clue about business

[Richard W]

Trevor I thought you ran your own business??? If you did you would know that all modern wages packages are now integrated with hmrc and submit online... All the forms are now downloaded through the wages packages directly from hmrc... Why don't you know this???? Judging from your comments I dread to think what kind of business you run.. I wouldn't trust you to run a corner shop

You're making the same mistake as many conspiracy theorists - you are assuming joined-up government. I just found this wonderful answer in an FoI reply made this year about UKVI access to HMRC records:

HO caseworkers do not as a matter of routine have direct electronic access to information held by another government department or public body therefore they would need to make a formal request to that body for any information they require to make a decision on an application.

You wouldn't run a business the way the UKVI is run!

I suppose the answer might be a lie.

[stuartsko]

Trevor I thought you ran your own business??? If you did you would know that all modern wages packages are now integrated with hmrc and submit online... All the forms are now downloaded through the wages packages directly from hmrc... Why don't you know this???? Judging from your comments I dread to think what kind of business you run.. I wouldn't trust you to run a corner shop

You're making the same mistake as many conspiracy theorists - you are assuming joined-up government. I just found this wonderful answer in an FoI reply made this year about UKVI access to HMRC records:

HO caseworkers do not as a matter of routine have direct electronic access to information held by another government department or public body therefore they would need to make a formal request to that body for any information they require to make a decision on an application.

You wouldn't run a business the way the UKVI is run!

I suppose the answer might be a lie.

[stuartsko]

Actually they do, do you know what gateway is??? But back to the paperwork... Modern packages print p60s directly from hmrc... If a case worker can't spot a fake one from a real one that is not my problem.. They are more than welcome to check

[Richard W]

Actually they do, do you know what gateway is???

I thought I did. I thought it was a method for outsiders to communicate with the government.

This implies that the technology should be there for UKVI to browse HMRC records. But perhaps each access rather than each accessor has to be individually approved. The FoI reply claims that each request but UKVI for HMRC information has to be approved, and I don't think 'tell us everything about every ordinary person' would be approved.

I presume that you aren't assuming that GCHQ (or the CIA on its behalf) has passed the identity information to UKVI and its predecessors.

But back to the paperwork... Modern packages print p60s directly from hmrc... If a case worker can't spot a fake one from a real one that is not my problem..

P60s are not asked for - and with employment of only 6 months, might not be available. Payslips are asked for. I have often wondered how payslips from a small employer are supposed to be checked by an Entry Clearance Officer.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Richard W

[stuartsko]

Actually they do, do you know what gateway is???

I thought I did. I thought it was a method for outsiders to communicate with the government.

This implies that the technology should be there for UKVI to browse HMRC records. But perhaps each access rather than each accessor has to be individually approved. The FoI reply claims that each request but UKVI for HMRC information has to be approved, and I don't think 'tell us everything about every ordinary person' would be approved.

I presume that you aren't assuming that GCHQ (or the CIA on its behalf) has passed the identity information to UKVI and its predecessors.

But back to the paperwork... Modern packages print p60s directly from hmrc... If a case worker can't spot a fake one from a real one that is not my problem..

P60s are not asked for - and with employment of only 6 months, might not be available. Payslips are asked for. I have often wondered how payslips from a small employer are supposed to be checked by an Entry Clearance Officer.

Your quoting the CIA and GCHQ to me and calling me the conspiracy theorist haha

[stuartsko]

P60s are not asked for - and with employment of only 6 months, might not be available. Payslips are asked for. I have often wondered how payslips from a small employer are supposed to be checked by an Entry Clearance Officer.

We will be submitting 12 months payslips and at least 1 p60

[Trevor1809]

Stuart, this is nothing to do with conspiracies or the rothschilds (?). We are trying to help you. The rules can be quite complex in certain areas especially with regards to self-employment. I don't know all the ins and outs of the rules but I think there must be some conditions applied in respect of a husband paying wages to his wife.

Let me give a possible scenario :-

UK man married to Thai wife applying for FLR in 6 months time. They have no jobs, no other income. They only have just over £10,000 in the bank. So in no way can they meet the financial requirements for FLR.

So man sets up a company and pays his wife £9300 for 6 months. So she can now demonstrate earnings of £18600 pa and thereby qualify for the visa. No income tax liability because she will earn less than her personal allowance for tax. She might even be able to claim tax credits! Only expenses would be minimal - cost of setting up a company plus possible national insurance costs.

If all this was possible to get the visa then everyone could do it so there surely must be stringent conditions against this contained in the visa rules.

Be interesting to hear what 7by7 has to say about it.

I am glad that you raised this scenario as it is very similar to the one I could see as getting past scrutiny. A cash in hand working exceeds the threshold but can't substantiate what he earns as the paperwork that a self employed person submits is much more onerous.

I am not sure that you would even have to go as far as setting up a company, would UKVI really go to all the lengths of verifying a company at Companies House or follow up on references.

Just get some free payroll software, knock off the pay slips, P60, put the same amount of cash into your bank account as the net pay. Download an employment contract and it all on the face of it meets the guidelines. The joke is as an employee you only supply 6 months worth of pay slips.

Now I would never suggest that anybody does that but it is possible.

If you were earring cash in hand and set a company up to use you cash in hand as earnings then you would be legit.. My god you just get better don't you

And still you don't get it. They are FAKE pay slips, they are FAKE P60s. You don't make the returns to HMRC. Year end wind after getting the visa wind the company up . Tell hmrc the company didn't get off the ground.