What qualifies as an experienced rider?

[djlest]

I ve been riding a honda hornet for the last 10 years in Bangkok at least a few times per week, whilst i could be considered experienced due to the lack of accidents ive had, i certainly dont consider myself experienced and anyday now could easily be my last...
You need to respect the road and honor the fact that absoloutely anything can happen here, much more dangers than back home, and when you get in trouble no one cares....

My last big accident was coming home after a long day at work, and suddenly wind picked up and a monsoon hit me in Silom, i was riding home quite steadily soaking wet without a mac on but without good vision due to the helmet visor and rain. Then the pickup in front of me skidded and hit the vehicle in front of him whilst braking. I swerved to miss them both and miraculously dropped the bike and literally went skiiing on 2 feet leaving the bike under me in between 2 lanes of moving traffic... the roads were so slippery as it hadn't rained for quite a while. After that not one person came to help me pick up my bike, instead everyone was just beeping and driving past.... it was a heavy bike to pick up in pooring rain and slipping all over the roads with my shoes on... again... not one person offered to help!

it was after that i had even less respect for Thai society and more respect for the uncertainty and danger that exists here....Stay safe!

as for standing on your pegs lol... that requires zero skill at all, just stand up, no extra balance required if anything it gives you more control at slower speeds and more support on bumps as your knees take the shock. I do it all the time on speed bumps...

Wheelies however are a different story, nothing wrong with them as long as you dont put others at risk and rule number one.... keep your foot on the back brake and use it smoothly and don't lean back too far.

Last 2 nights ive been watching ''The long way down"" and "the long way around" tour accross the world on BMW motorcycle series on Netflix - Great show highly recommended...

Edited December 8, 2015 by djlest

[canthai55]

Your "advice" is dangerous !

The "technique" of standing on pegs is not part of Advanced Motorcycle Roadcraft.

Learning how to read the road, position the bike and to identify potential hazards is part of what is taught during an advanced motorcycle riding course. .

Your lack of knowledge of off-road riding is showing. Or riding over pot-hole infested roads. Stand on the pegs - instant lower centre of gravity.

Watch Dakar - any year - and see how it is done. And these are some of - if not the - best riders in the world. All motorcycle riding is not on the super slab, or downtown.

[BBJ]

• Is there any Advanced Motorbike Training School in Phuket? Somewhere else in Thailand?

I don't think so. Honda have a school in the Bangkok area where you can learn riding a scooter.

Some of my friends says that riding on a track is the best way to learn to ride your bike right to the limit.

I would love to start riding on a track but I fell I am too old and will also rather not crash my less than one year old Versys.

Some buy a non registered bike just for track racing but most just use their street bike.

There is a chap at asianamoto who provides off road training. He is based in min buri, both a GS trophy racer and Baja1000. Personally I think it is good for the Tarmac too. While cornering on the road and off are different, some off road skill provides great balance technique on the road, especially in slow moving traffic. Having the confidence to stand on your pegs to get a better view over cars and advance notice of cars pulling out or joining the road as proved its worth to me.

Your "advice" is dangerous !

The "technique" of standing on pegs is not part of Advanced Motorcycle Roadcraft.

Learning how to read the road, position the bike and to identify potential hazards is part of what is taught during an advanced motorcycle riding course. .

Sorry, but have to disagree with you. And you are speaking as though in the UK where the majority abide by the rules. Standing on the pegs for a quick glance isn't dangerous. No disrespect, but the AMR isn't necessarily the bible of riding. The environment, road surface and vision, or lack of, can be helped by a quick glance by standing on the pegs. I am not suggesting for one minute to ride for long distances through traffic while standing. But having the bike that allows it, and the ability to do so, has paid dividends for me when suspecting a car is probably going to force his way into traffic from a blind side. It has provided me with the advance notice to brake well before I need to (in Thailand).

[BBJ]

And to add, if the rules have changed since I left the UK, there is nothing stating a rider has to be seated at all times. This law applies to the pillion passenger who must be seated and have both feet on the pegs. I believe it is at the discretion of the copper (who are trained to stand on the pegs when they need to) to determine if you are riding carelessly. Wouldn't surprise me if the rules have since changed.

[carter1882]

I have completed over 300,000 kms on bikes in Bangkok alone. I have not had an accident but very close about three times. Every time I get on my bike I vocalise: i am going to enjoy riding you but i am going to concentrate so i wont let you kill me. I agree with those you dismiss braggarts and who never forget the danger or what there is to learn. Whilst 10,000kms is a start and riding several different kinds of bike is good, there is no substitute for humility. Bike riding is always perilous and huge concentration is required at all times to stay reasonable safe and alive.

[misterphil]

if you can wheelie half a block in control, you are experienced.

First you need to do a huge burnout then see if you can put down the biggest letter Q in rubber then wheelie half a block. lol

[VocalNeal]

What qualifies as experience? It occures to me there are three different subjects?

1. Bike control and riding.

Sure a guy with experience can pass a test on bike control. Cornering , balance, avoiding skids and the like without having ridden on a wet road. No motorway or night driving included either. etc, etc.

So the guy is experienced in bike control.

2. Road crafty and riding in different places or varying surfaces, different rules etc.

A guy can spend some years riding in the US or UK or.. so has years of experience. But when the BMW Factory Workers Riders Club wanted to do the trans Sumatra highway and offloaded their bikes at Medan and set off. One guy dropped his bike and it was severly damaged in the first 200kms. Wrong side of the road, unfamiliar riding conditions, strange local driving practises etc, etc.

Saddle time in a variety of places and conditions would qualify as experience in road craft. Track days are good, some off road is good, ridng in a tropical downpour, etc. etc.

3. Having something between ones ears.

Experience is just that. But is it 20 years of experience or one year of experience twenty times?

Being observant and alert with situational awareness counts for a lot.

So to answer the OP's question an experienced rider must have bike control skils on large and small bikes, have clocked some hours riding in at least two diferent continents but as this is a Thai based forum substitute , have clocked some hours in two different Asian countries, and still be smart enough to know that he isn't yet an expert.

Edited December 8, 2015 by VocalNeal

[Headgame]

Great thread. Many good points for a novice rider like myself with 6 weeks under my belt. I ride every morning from 6:30 for two hours and then home. At least twice a week I go to a vacant lot and practice various drills. I need to go to the lot every day before heading out on the Phuket roads. I am modifying my routine staring tomorrow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Garry]

I've been riding since 1967.I know the streets,roads,alley ways are treacherous in Thailand.It don't make any difference how experienced you are when your stopped at A traffic light and A vehicle comes and runs you over.Thats just 1 of many things that can injury you or worse.Maybe get hit broadside by someone running A traffic light.Supposely beng an experienced rider you

See how to get out of A would be accident til you don't.Thailand is one of the worse countries for vehicle accidents.

I still ride A few places in Thailand but not everywhere.I'm not looking for A death wish.

That's my closest call so far 'get hit broadside'. If it hadn't been for my buddy blasting his horn behind me at the lights, I would have been nailed by a very late, speeding red light runner. I had actually waited 3-4 seconds, seen no-one coming and started to move. Mid-intersection my family almost lost me. Sometimes it can just be plain luck or eagle eyed friends riding with you.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Garry

[expatbrit]

BBJ

Try your fancy riding technique in Australia and it will not be long before you lose the license and get hit with convictions and large fines !

Standing on pegs means you are not in full control of the bike, cannot change gear or effectively operate the brakes !

You are, in fact , a disaster waiting to occur.

Lets hope no one else is killed/injured .

[canthai55]

Sometimes it can just be plain luck or eagle eyed friends riding with you.

Hear that. Been run off the road before, take the ditch or become a hood ornament. What chapter in that book covers that ?

[expatbrit]

Sometimes it can just be plain luck or eagle eyed friends riding with you.

Hear that. Been run off the road before, take the ditch or become a hood ornament. What chapter in that book covers that ?

Why not read the book and find out ?

When did you last hear of a Western motorcycle traffic policeman "taking the ditch"?

Learn to ride and stay out of the ditch !

[papa al]

BBJ

Try your fancy riding technique in Australia and it will not be long before you lose the license and get hit with convictions and large fines !

Standing on pegs means you are not in full control of the bike, cannot change gear or effectively operate the brakes !

You are, in fact , a disaster waiting to occur.

Lets hope no one else is killed/injured .

riding on pegs = not in full control/disaster waiting to occur

the jerk in this vid proves it

[expatbrit]

BBJ

Try your fancy riding technique in Australia and it will not be long before you lose the license and get hit with convictions and large fines !

Standing on pegs means you are not in full control of the bike, cannot change gear or effectively operate the brakes !

You are, in fact , a disaster waiting to occur.

Lets hope no one else is killed/injured .

riding on pegs = not in full control/disaster waiting to occur

the jerk in this vid proves it

Very "clever" of you to find that which has nothing to do with the topic !

We are discussing Road Riding NOT rock hopping !

[thaiguzzi]

BBJ

Try your fancy riding technique in Australia and it will not be long before you lose the license and get hit with convictions and large fines !

Standing on pegs means you are not in full control of the bike, cannot change gear or effectively operate the brakes !

You are, in fact , a disaster waiting to occur.

Lets hope no one else is killed/injured .

Yawn...

Is that the time? Must be time for jim jams and beddy byes. Oh, and a nice cup of cocoa.

[CarolJadzia]

Wheelies! Got friends who pul them all the time, do it myself if a bit to rapid on the throttle. My ZRX pulls them easily, so does my other half's SV650. Only when training the consensus of opinion is that keeping the wheel on the ground under rapid acceleration is a more impressive skill. Pulling a wheelie when drag racing normally looses the race.

Two other things to consider. While the front wheel is up in the air the engine lubrication system is not working as it was designed to. Depending on engine configuration this can lead to oil starvation to certain parts of the engine such as the exhaust camshaft and rockers. Also front suspension and the front wheel are not designed to be banged onto the road from height, what forces are you applying to the fork seals when you drop down out of a wheelie?

And to add, if the rules have changed since I left the UK, there is nothing stating a rider has to be seated at all times. This law applies to the pillion passenger who must be seated and have both feet on the pegs. I believe it is at the discretion of the copper (who are trained to stand on the pegs when they need to) to determine if you are riding carelessly. Wouldn't surprise me if the rules have since changed.

Without looking it up I believe UK Law states the rider and pillion must be "sat straddling the motorcycle with their feet on the foot pegs provided". Although standing up for things like speed humps and the like would not be a reason for a test fail or a law pull on it's own as both are recognised techniques off road, they are generally not required techniques for on road riding.

But this is where the fun starts. The training in the UK at advanced level tends to be split three ways. There are specialist off road training courses that deal with rough terrain riding. Then we have the Track days aimed at people who want to race off road on race tracks. Then we have the road based training that is aimed at keeping people safe on the roads.

There are cross-overs, many of the cornering skills learned on a racetrack can be applied to road riding. However just learning track based skills as is now starting to happen in Thailand is only learning half of the story. One thing that I like that is slowly coming to Thailand is Motorcycle Gymkhana. Anyone can get into it and it's a great help for learning handling skills. I have a friend who is trying to get a site opened near Phuket offering it. My police friends have been advising him on where to purchase cones only he is also asking me about the on-road side of training as that is a different thing. If you are interested in Gymkhana then contact Oleg on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/motovride

https://youtu.be/sCTqCwa_YT0

I have spent two years looking at training in Thailand and so far I have not found anyone offering anything that is remotely like the on-road advanced defensive training being offered all over the UK. If you want to see the sort of training that we offer then you are welcome to look up my fellow No Surprise / No Accident protagonist Kevin Williams who is an independent Instructor offering in the UK what I am hoping to bring to Thailand. On Facebook -facebook.com/SurvivalSkills or survivalskills.co.uk

All the training in Thailand is aimed at group training on off-road sites offering handling skills. We offer one to one or small group courses aimed more at road positioning, hazard avoidance and defensive riding. It does not suggest that riders do not know how to ride as in the UK we have already taught people to test standard before offering advanced level training. In Thailand of course this training needs to be one to one in order to first ascertain the riding abilities of the particular rider.

Here is an example of advanced riding philosophy, using a corner to get a better view of what is ahead of the lorry you are following. Then because of the better acceleration of a motorcycle over the lorry, using the exit of the corner to out accelerate the lorry and overtake.

[thaiguzzi]

About 15 years after i'd been riding bikes, ie early 30's, i got into sidecars. A few of my mates had them, mostly BSA's, a Norton. We all rode Brit bikes. So, i built quite a nice rig, Triumph 650 in a rigid frame, rigid sidecar wheel, so the whole back end had no rear suspension. Slider !!! Fantastic on wet roads. Anyway, my mates warned me, the sooner i have an incident (accident/fall off/crash), the less severe (painful/damage) it will be. They were right. About a fortnight in, over confident on a left hander - straight on and ended up a tree. No serious damage to me or the bike, except my wounded pride.

[English_M_in_Bkk]

BBJ

Try your fancy riding technique in Australia and it will not be long before you lose the license and get hit with convictions and large fines !

Standing on pegs means you are not in full control of the bike, cannot change gear or effectively operate the brakes !

You are, in fact , a disaster waiting to occur.

Lets hope no one else is killed/injured .

Edited December 8, 2015 by seedy
language

[English_M_in_Bkk]

• Is there any Advanced Motorbike Training School in Phuket? Somewhere else in Thailand?

I don't think so. Honda have a school in the Bangkok area where you can learn riding a scooter.

Some of my friends says that riding on a track is the best way to learn to ride your bike right to the limit.

I would love to start riding on a track but I fell I am too old and will also rather not crash my less than one year old Versys.

Some buy a non registered bike just for track racing but most just use their street bike.

There is a chap at asianamoto who provides off road training. He is based in min buri, both a GS trophy racer and Baja1000. Personally I think it is good for the Tarmac too. While cornering on the road and off are different, some off road skill provides great balance technique on the road, especially in slow moving traffic. Having the confidence to stand on your pegs to get a better view over cars and advance notice of cars pulling out or joining the road as proved its worth to me.

Your "advice" is dangerous !

The "technique" of standing on pegs is not part of Advanced Motorcycle Roadcraft.

Learning how to read the road, position the bike and to identify potential hazards is part of what is taught during an advanced motorcycle riding course. .

You know off roading/MX isn't just about standing on the pegs... funny how the Motogp/Road Racers and Superbike riders do off roading/MX in their off seasons, and all say it improves their road riding and handling of motorbikes. But hey, what do they know..

Safety isn't just about road position etc. yeah important of course, but getting experience from different good sources is not a bad thing.

Edited December 8, 2015 by English_M_in_Bkk

[canthai55]

Sometimes it can just be plain luck or eagle eyed friends riding with you.

Hear that. Been run off the road before, take the ditch or become a hood ornament. What chapter in that book covers that ?

Why not read the book and find out ?

When did you last hear of a Western motorcycle traffic policeman "taking the ditch"?

Learn to ride and stay out of the ditch !

Seems you did not understand what I wrote. Both lanes had cars/trucks, no shoulder, mountain one side, ditch the other. Where to go ?

[gazwa]

Got my first bike in 1972. Honda 50cc 12 years old. Steep learning curve but worth it. Riding dirt teaches many skills with relatively low risk (lower speeds, less traffic) Bike licence @ 17 years old riding roads. Higher risk but with some skill and common sense I survived while others I knew did not. Many, many miles all over East coast of OZ on a wide variety of bikes. No serious or life threatening accidents (but a few close calls, mainly other vehicles) 2001 started racing a 1972 350cc Honda Post Classic class. At 40 years old still leaning new skills and loving it. Track work really ups your game and skills. Living and riding in Thailand since 2008 commuting to work 2 years pattaya to ban Chang 70km round trip. Loved it.

Best advise? Ride within your limits, situational awareness and believe every other fugger on the road is trying to kill you. They really are, whether they know it or not.

P.S. A young girl pulled out of a Stop sign right in front of me in 2006. I had slowed as I never trust car drivers, and BOOM she pulled out right in front of me. Result, broken back, many broken ribs, collar bone and scafoid (wrist).

Despite her best effort, I survived and got better. Still love riding bikes! Enjoy!

[CarolJadzia]

About 15 years after i'd been riding bikes, ie early 30's, i got into sidecars. A few of my mates had them, mostly BSA's, a Norton. We all rode Brit bikes. So, i built quite a nice rig, Triumph 650 in a rigid frame, rigid sidecar wheel, so the whole back end had no rear suspension. Slider !!! Fantastic on wet roads. Anyway, my mates warned me, the sooner i have an incident (accident/fall off/crash), the less severe (painful/damage) it will be. They were right. About a fortnight in, over confident on a left hander - straight on and ended up a tree. No serious damage to me or the bike, except my wounded pride.

Combo's are loads of fun. I have had a Cossack, a Dnieper M66 to be exact, also put a chair on my Z1 to transport my son around. Great fun, used to play on the Part One test area doing the Part 1 (pre UK CBT) with the sidecar in the air like in this pic.

Also had a couple of bike based trikes, although they are not as much fun. Big back wheels power you in a straight line while a small wheel tries to steer you, can make trying to corner at speed fun, especially as you cannot lean the bike.

[canthai55]

Very "clever" of you to find that which has nothing to do with the topic !

We are discussing Road Riding NOT rock hopping !

The Topic Title - What qualifies as an experienced rider?

[nithisa78]

When you consistently practice defensive driving - you would then be an experienced rider. Despite years or mileage.

[farangmick]

Don't really understand this post. Riding in England since 1972. First fairly quick bike in '76 (RD400). Since then I had anything from R80 BMW and a Harley, to my last bike in England, an SP2. A bit of racing in my younger days, did my police training course. So I considered myself an experienced biker. Now after seven years out here on a Honda Wave, and a Chinese dirt bike for a bit of fun on the farm tracks, I'd be starting virtually from scratch if I got a proper road bike. Cruisers don't count, but anything that leans over in corners would now scare me sh*tless out here, where smooth tarmac turns into a dirt track halfway round a bend.

[CarolJadzia]

When you consistently practice defensive driving - you would then be an experienced rider. Despite years or mileage.

Experience is experience. It has nothing to do with training.

In the UK the Compulsory Basic Training is aimed at giving people the basics before they go on the road. Help them stay alive while they gain experience.

The British Licence Test technically is looking for 'Experienced' riders to demonstrate their skills before being given a full licence. Market forces have meant that there are lots of riding schools offering five day or less courses offering a way to get the skills to pass the test. However there is a high fail rate as five days is not enough to get the required level of experience. Having been a test Instructor and Instructor Trainer then I know this system has faults, we only train people to pass the test - not to deal with everything on the road.

People who have ridden round on L-plates gaining experience first normally have a far better chance of passing the test and normally only require a day or two's training to get to test standard.

Heres something worth noting, the standards required to pass the British Licence Test are different to what is looked for when passing the ROSPA or IAM advanced tests. If you ride to driving test standard when doing advanced you will fail and also vice versa.

[BSJ]

Even if you ride the same road everyday week in and week out......expect the unexpected!

[papa al]

#47

I'd start passing at position 2.

#57 "If you ride to driving test standard when doing advanced you will fail and vice versus"

Er, jolly good.

Edited December 8, 2015 by papa al

[jing jing]

I learned to ride in the dirt, first with BMX, then learning on a dirt bike to jump, slide, and generally feel comfortable on two wheels without much grip / traction. That is where it all starts.

Those BMX / MX skills will save your skin when the pavement gets unexpectedly wet, sandy, potholed, or broken up.

[CarolJadzia]

#47

I'd start passing at position 2.

As the diagram is taken from an early version of Roadcraft which is of course the Police Riders handbook then the image is designed to show two solid white lines, the same as the solid yellow lines you get in Thailand that you are not supposed to cross.

The police are not going to suggest in their own training manual that braking the rules under normal conditions is ok.

However the earlier Roadcraft versions did go on to discuss how to Ride when responding to emergencies.