US commandos say no to women in special operations jobs

[arjunadawn]

Women should not be in combat and they should not be in special forces. Period.

If they are as good or better as males in the job?

No. Because there is no way they can be as good as men at these specific tasks. Men have evolved to specialize at this stuff.

What if the requirements have to be watered down to accommodate the women ?

I just read that it also includes "Psychological Warfare" I know a lot women who are naturals in that

Its noise, not substance. I seem to recall women in Psyops before now. Psyops is an adjunct and tho there are times when they accompany SF on missions they are not door kickers. There are also Air Force weathermen, the grey berets, and such assets that may attach for mission specific ops. Having women in such roles may be troubling but not as troubling as then attaching them to the Operational A Teams or SEAL teams or squadrons for missions.

A woman crying in pain (as a man might) has a very different effect on the human male then a male in pain. A woman being brutally raped is simply and immediately presumed upon capture. It is only our hopes that men or not- but of course women are. Women will immediately be the unusual trophy of conflict, a significant prize, endangering them and men further. SpecOps out of uniform conducting missions in denied areas would immediately be compromised by a woman without a burka, a blond woman with one, or even soft hands under a burka. On every single point its stupid.

[stevenl]

Women should not be in combat and they should not be in special forces. Period.

If they are as good or better as males in the job?

They aren't. They don't have the upper body strength.

That's easy then if they don't meet the requirements they won't be included. But if they meet the requirements they will be, and why not.

[freebyrd]

I trained soldiers male and female for 20 years in the British Army. Some of those females were running fit, a few better than the men, but when it came to upper body strength, to a woman, they were all left behind.

I had a boss, a lady Captain, excellent at her job in peacetime conditions. She admitted to me 'Sgt Major, I can run rings around any man in peacetime but paint my face black and put me in a hole in the ground or ask me to carry 120lbs for miles and I simply couldn't keep up.'

I also trained bodyguard teams to protect ambassadors. When females were included, they were carried on physical activities. I warned the hierarchy that the shag factor would cause a problem, teams of 4, 3 males and 1 female. It didn't take long for stories to filter back of discipline problems due to someone getting it while the others didn't or certain young ladies dishing it out to all, I'm not sure which was worse.

I took early retirement from the mob because it took me 3 years of slog to qualify, that was condensed to months and standards reduced to give the females a chance.

All that said, we were put on this earth and made different, we seem to have stopped celebrating those differences. I watched my wife give birth to both my offspring. My hat is off to the gentler sex, the most painful procedure known to us,.I couldn't even think of doing that, my wife also admitted that she couldn't do the things I did. Political correctness has gone too far.

[slipperylobster]

I have served with a very few women...and they were always treated differently. One allegation of sexual harassment up the chain of command, and it's back to a cushy deskjob while awaiting a congressional investigation. I was told to leave them alone (the ones were in the process of a Congrint) and basically could not force them to do anything at all. The officers in the unit would only wince and tell me to forget any sort of disciplinary action. They were free to say what they wanted and do what they wanted. Plain facts, that I do not believe will change. We had to put up tents for them, (none of them were swinging mallets or sand bagging). When they were assigned, they were counted as personnel...but would never be sent on advance party...or rear party (set up/set down camp)..so my male servicemen pulled extra duties. Many just gave up and got pregnant...therefore excusing themselves from deployment.

Physical standards are different. Very few of them could complete a long run..in full gear. Less pullups...less running (as a whole). Yes there were some female Tarzans...that could do better...but that was few.

Besides all this.....the senior ranks were secretly courting the few cute ones. Lots of winks and plenty of hormones floating around.

Finally...what is happening to Chivalry? Do you want to hold a dying 18 year old girl in your arms, after she took a hit for you?

I saw it when they needed female officers....they pushed them up the ranks.....already the male material was so that I hope my country never needs to protect against anyone stronger than the Vatican, but the women were beyond anything that you could describe. And there were clear orders that a specific amount must pass and must be in some ranks and positions. As there weren't many.....

Agree. Not all were qualified.

I worked as an Officer Selection Officer (recruiter at colleges in the Northeast). We would get quotas......like this.

Must have one black female lawyer Officer Candidate in the program. (guess how that ended up?)

Yes...we were given missions to fill billets with minorites..and females....and they all passed our evaluations with our highest regard.

Our saying was...throw it at the mission board...if it sticks...put her in. Make mission..go fishin. It was that or a bad fitrep.

Good news...these were not full commissions....they served active duty but with "reserve commission" limited to four years. They then had to compete with others. Only 25 percent were augmented (received regular commissions). It evened out.

Edited December 11, 2015 by slipperylobster

[55Jay]

I have served with a very few women...and they were always treated differently. One allegation of sexual harassment up the chain of command, and it's back to a cushy deskjob while awaiting a congressional investigation. I was told to leave them alone (the ones were in the process of a Congrint) and basically could not force them to do anything at all. The officers in the unit would only wince and tell me to forget any sort of disciplinary action. They were free to say what they wanted and do what they wanted. Plain facts, that I do not believe will change. We had to put up tents for them, (none of them were swinging mallets or sand bagging). When they were assigned, they were counted as personnel...but would never be sent on advance party...or rear party (set up/set down camp)..so my male servicemen pulled extra duties. Many just gave up and got pregnant...therefore excusing themselves from deployment.

Physical standards are different. Very few of them could complete a long run..in full gear. Less pullups...less running (as a whole). Yes there were some female Tarzans...that could do better...but that was few.

Besides all this.....the senior ranks were secretly courting the few cute ones. Lots of winks and plenty of hormones floating around.

Finally...what is happening to Chivalry? Do you want to hold a dying 18 year old girl in your arms, after she took a hit for you?

You ever get the feeling there's an agenda, and we are seeing a flurry of activity because time's running out?

I observed the opening of women on combatant ships during the Clinton Administration.

It was tough watching horny female teenagers get smashed into a small boy, like a frigate, cruiser or a tin can, with all the pre-existing young, horny male teenagers. Then watch the CO cry in his coffee cup as he heads out to sea under a raft of draconian, career ending threats to prevent nature from taking its course. Moreover, his ability to command would be called into question when the inevitable happened.

This ensured the experiment was heralded as a success. Saying anything to the contrary was career suicide.

Meanwhile, Commander-in-Chief Clinton was playing Smiles under his desk in the Oval Office, but the poor dopes out in the Fleet were unable to convince their administrative discharge boards that a BJ wasn't really sexual relaitons.

[Ulic]

Well.......If you are really pushing for it and have to have your way, form an all woman team

and let them have at it. I think it is a mistake, but up to command I guess.

[Pakboong]

My research in this matter is 25 years old but at the time, the performance difference in Men and Women was about 12.3%. I took every physical event against which Males and Females competed against the same standard at world championship levels. Primary focus was triathlons. The triathlon majors produced this percentage of difference time after time. Interestingly, at the turn of the 19th century, the difference was roughly 16% indicating social change over the years.

[55Jay]

My research in this matter is 25 years old but at the time, the performance difference in Men and Women was about 12.3%. I took every physical event against which Males and Females competed against the same standard at world championship levels. Primary focus was triathlons. The triathlon majors produced this percentage of difference time after time. Interestingly, at the turn of the 19th century, the difference was roughly 16% indicating social change over the years.

Interesting data. I understand why you offered it, and suspect you realize this is not only a question of can they, but should they.

More to the point, should we accept appointed and elected civil servants using the military to satisfy special interest agendas. They smash the train set, check the box and move on, leaving the military members to pick up the pieces and deal with the drama, and administative and disciplinary burdens which sucks the life out of a well run, cohesive unit.

In fairness, 50% of the problem with women on combatants isn't the women. It's the men. It takes 2 to tango though, and the music is always playing.

[Chicog]

Jumping out of a helicopter, laying charges, shooting a few people, nicking some DVDs.

Doesn't sound like it would be too hard for a woman.

That's what Seal Team Six did to get OBL.

Surely the biggest problem would be getting them to keep quiet.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Chicog

[arjunadawn]

Jumping out of a helicopter, laying charges, shooting a few people, nicking some DVDs.

Doesn't sound like it would be too hard for a woman.

That's what Seal Team Six did to get OBL.

Surely the biggest problem would be getting them to keep quiet.

This is very funny. Even women would laugh at this. If not, they'd never make it on a team where the motto is roughly "if you want some slack cut the rope."

Another poster indicated that if a woman could do it why not (stevenl)? I agree, at first glance. I have known men in SF that sucked. At my best I was only above average physically. SF are men who are unique among the military itself. Besides the air of mystique they really do help nurture they are near Olympiads. An SF A Team of SEAL team are some hard F#ujiog dudes! There have been studies done on the unique relationship between SpecOps soldiers and cortisol, and other related phenomena, all suggesting how physiologically demanding the job is. Throw estrogen dominant people into the mix were estrogen is required to drive calcium into bones, and hemactocrit changes monthly due to blood loss, and you have sub functioning soldiers. Worse, you may be predisposing them to injury; the risk is certainly increased.

I believe there are women who can do the job. I have seen a few women over the years who might qualify. A few women just passed Ranger School. Assuming the standards were not lowered (I believe they were not lowered), if a woman could pass this she could pass SF selection. However, this is where the job begins.

While many men will resent a woman being on the team without doubt an equal amount will want to _____ her. Invariably it will happen too. This is a fundamental distraction. SF/SEALs attract a peculiar sort of man, the type that races toward gun fire, not away. Put a woman in the mix and this will absolutely compromise choice selection in battle. Men, real men, simply and viscerally respond to a woman in danger. Through in an additional concern regarding the unique health requirements that could affect deployment readiness. Lastly, SF/SEALs know well a menstruating woman can be detected a long way off in the field.

As the Nine Robbed Destroyers have consistently upheld the military is a unique institution and should therefore make its own rules and laws- UCMJ. Social engineering simply to foster a laboratory is absurd.

[Harsh Jones]

Its the beta boys who are too insecure to criticize women. They think it shows security to get trampled over by them

[1duckyboy]

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1449795854.602046.jpg

Women carrying women, guess that works in an all female unit. What about a male team member that weighs twice as much? Look at the size of the guy in the background.

Presumably, for the same reason, an injured female team member would be much easier for a male to transport.

Would not that weight difference be of use when agility and lightness of foot is important?

The majority of the weight different is caused by muscle mass. Put a 50+ lb. pack on each and see who has agility and lightness of foot.

[Chicog]

I doubt a woman would pass selection unless they lowered the standards significantly. Men die trying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Special_Forces_Selection

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[williamgeorgeallen]

found proof why woman should not be on the front lines.

[Rancid]

Interesting posts from people with actual experience. I see women in action movies all the time wiping the floor with large groups of muscle clad men. Surely no one is suggesting that reality isn't really like that?

If so then perhaps I can finally stop being physically intimidated by slim, young attractive women.

[Chicog]

We were discussing this in the boozer last night.

One bloke suggested that if you organised operations when they had the decorators in, they would be the perfect killing machine.

But then someone else pointed out that they might kill their own team.

[samran]

The rugged individualist Thai Visa warriors scared of women. Who would have thunk?

If they can pass the tests, then why not? Inevitably there will still be mostly men, but surely you want the best of the best, no matter where they came from. And if the best argument is that they shouldn't be allowed in cause the SF member can't keep his dick in his pants while on the job, then he probably shouldn't be deployed in the first place.

[Scott]

An inappropriate graphic has been removed.

[chuckd]

This out today on Drudge Report:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Army women hurt more often in combat training, experience more mental health issues

By Rowan Scarborough - The Washington Times - Thursday, December 17, 2015

Army women not only suffer more injuries than men during combat training, but the active-duty female soldiers also are stricken with significantly higher rates of mental health disorders.

The statistics come from a study conducted by the Army surgeon general last summer in conjunction with a bevy of analyses and experiments to judge women’s suitability for direct ground combat roles. It found, for example, that female soldiers suffer depression at more than double the rate of men and that one of the triggers is exposure to combat.

Article continues here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/17/army-women-hurt-more-often-in-combat-training-expe/

[Ulysses G.]

[quote name="samran" post="10202653" timestamp="1450337143"

If they can pass the tests, then why not?

Because of expenses. A few freaks might pass, but it would cost quite a bit to make all sort of changes just for them.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[manarak]

[quote name="samran" post="10202653" timestamp="1450337143"

If they can pass the tests, then why not?Because of expenses. A few freaks might pass, but it would cost quite a bit to make all sort of changes just for them.

why not subject them to the same physical tests but also make no changes whatsoever in facilities? one shower, one toilet... it's combat, not holiday camp.