Full bilateral ties only after democracy restored: US envoy

[webfact]

Full bilateral ties only after democracy restored: US envoy
MARISA CHIMPRABHA,
NUNTIDA PUANGTHONG
THE NATION


US Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs Daniel Russel shakes hands with Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha as they meet at Government House yesterday.

GOVT TRYING TO ACHIEVE BALANCE, ENSURE STABILITY, PM SAYS IN RESPONSE

BANGKOK: -- FULL bilateral cooperation between Thailand and the United States would be resumed only after democracy has been restored, Daniel Russel, the US assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific Affairs, said yesterday.

Good relations with Thailand were a valuable asset for the US, said Russel, adding he hoped to see prosperity and stability return to the Kingdom.

At a meeting yesterday, he told Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha that he understood the situation in Thailand, but retained concerns over human-rights issues and democracy.

Russel was considered in Bangkok as a controversial diplomat when, earlier this year, he branded the impeachment of former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra "politically driven".

It is widely believed that his attitude toward the junta and the military-led government has led to a chill in bilateral ties since the May 22, 2014 coup.

Prayut responded to Russel's comments by saying that his government was trying to achieve a balance between democracy and human rights as well as national security and stability.

"In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past to understand the present and see a clear future. Consider the country, not just the people. Don't just believe me, but study the situation more," Deputy Government Spokesman Werachon Sukondhapatipak quoted Prayut as telling Russel.

The US diplomat was in Thailand yesterday for the 5th Thailand-US Strategic Dialogue, which he co-chaired with the Foreign Ministry's permanent secretary Apichart Chinwanno.

The delegations discussed current political developments in Thailand and its commitment to implementing comprehensive reforms and returning to sustainable democracy. They also affirmed the importance of promoting universal human rights and humanitarian cooperation.

After the meeting, Russel explained to the press that Washington was legally limited in its cooperation with Thailand in the current situation. Despite the legal restrictions, the US would try to continue military cooperation such as Cobra Gold exercises and humanitarian assistance, he said.

Since the coup, the US has shelved military assistance and scaled down Cobra Gold.

A joint statement issued after the meeting said both sides would work on strengthening and expanding areas of cooperation, including public health, workforce development, medical research, creative economy, prevention and suppression of trafficking in persons and forced labour, cooperation in law enforcement, training and trade and investment.

Both sides reaffirmed the value of Thailand-US defence cooperation and pledged to continue implementing the 2012 Joint Vision Statement by strengthening cooperation on humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, global peacekeeping, and military medical research, among other defence engagements.

The two sides would resume their Defence Strategic Talks at the earliest opportunity, they said.

Panitan Wattanayagorn, an adviser to the Defence Minister, said the dialogue had been delayed since 2012 and further postponed by the coup and political changes.

As for Thai-US relations, he said both countries have been in a "love relationship" throughout 180 years of diplomatic ties, in contrast to the "love-hate" relationship the US has with other countries.

However, a series of political situations had affected relations, he said, adding both countries have to be careful in nurturing the ties otherwise it could turn into a love-hate relationship.

Panitan, also a security expert, said that Thailand is a more suitable strategic location for military exercises for the US than other countries in the region, but Washington's harsh reaction to the coup in Thailand is understandable as it has laws that oppose military intervention in national affairs.

Rangsit University lecturer Wanwichit Boonprong sees a diplomatic emphasis in the visit of Russel.

"The US on this occasion wishes to observe Thailand's diplomatic character: whether the Kingdom is responsive to its pro-democracy approach, and also its recent development of ties with China |and Russia. The US may wish to maintain its diplomatic balance," he said.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Full-bilateral-ties-only-after-democracy-restored--30275094.html


-- The Nation 2015-12-17

[harada]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[aussiesteve63]

Looks like a school boy who's just been reprimanded

[NeverSure]

A deer in the headlights.

[T_Dog]

Someone had to say it. Things in Thailand are just stupid. White spaces in newspapers, trains stopped so students can't protest, and prison for FaceBook likes.... The list is endless.

Edited December 16, 2015 by T_Dog

[spidermike007]

Prayut responded to Russel's comments by saying that his government was trying to achieve a balance between democracy and human rights as well as national security and stability.

"In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past to understand the present and see a clear future. Consider the country, not just the people. Don't just believe me, but study the situation more," Deputy Government Spokesman Werachon Sukondhapatipak quoted Prayut as telling Russel.

This is one of the deepest and most profound statements this man has ever made. LOL.

As for Thai-US relations, he said both countries have been in a "love relationship" throughout 180 years of diplomatic ties, in contrast to the "love-hate" relationship the US has with other countries.

However, a series of political situations had affected relations, he said, adding both countries have to be careful in nurturing the ties otherwise it could turn into a love-hate relationship.

Not sure how to even respond to that. Can you imagine the ramifications of being hated by the US? Does anyone care? We are all scared. We love you Thailand. But we might hate you later. Is this guy in the 9th grade? Is his job a paid position? Is he the best the US has? Why so little talent?

The US has such a bizarre relationship and obsession with the concept of "forced democracy". Libya, Algeria, Egypt and Afghanistan were not exactly success stories. I am not fond of little P. His tactics seem heavy-handed and on a daily basis he demonstrates his level of insecurity, and his tremendous lack of understanding. But, is lecturing Thailand on a public forum practicing the art of diplomacy? I think diplomacy is something the Obama administration has never learned well, and practices very poorly. Kerry, nor Russel are not what I would refer to as major talents.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Full-bilateral-ties-only-after-democracy-restored--30275094.html

-- The Nation 2015-12-17

Edited December 16, 2015 by spidermike007

[zakk9]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Edited December 16, 2015 by zakk9

[Plutojames88]

Quote

Rangsit University lecturer Wanwichit Boonprong sees a diplomatic emphasis in the visit of Russel.

"The US on this occasion wishes to observe Thailand's diplomatic character: whether the Kingdom is responsive to its pro-democracy approach, and also its recent development of ties with China |and Russia. The US may wish to maintain its diplomatic balance," he said.

Unquote

The threat of hatred is coming from the Thai side ( not US side)

It's important to recognise the constant rejection of the Thai side to any analysis .

It's always a "" misunderstanding "" or a need to ""study more"" the past to therefore see why etc.

They simply try and make the populace believe that they possibly are not being rejected because they are human rights abusers.

Like an abusive alcohol that eventual sees his wife and kids walk out .

They continue to blame domestic circumstances not their addictions.

And whilst they dwell on the lowest tier of human rights and publicly show the world it's continued abuse.

Little consideration as to why is needed.

[Somtamnication]

""In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past " Well, there is a difference between looking into the past and looking into your behind.

[never me]

Looks like a school boy who's just been reprimanded

Should have been given the cane.

[NCFC]

"In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past to understand the present and see a clear future. Consider the country, not just the people. Don't just believe me, but study the situation more," Deputy Government Spokesman Werachon Sukondhapatipak quoted Prayut as telling Russel.

Twenty-odd military coups since Thailand became a democratic monarchy suggests that if we study the past then we see continuous military interfering in the democratic process. I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion that the US will draw from studying Thailand's history.

This is a very strange remark. "Consider the country, not just the people".

If you take "The people" out of the equation then what of substance do you have left? In most countries the answer would be "very little", because the country and the people are almost synonymous. Why does Thailand think it is somehow special because of its past?

[tbthailand]

"In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past to understand the present and see a clear future. Consider the country, not just the people. Don't just believe me, but study the situation more," Deputy Government Spokesman Werachon Sukondhapatipak quoted Prayut as telling Russel.

Twenty-odd military coups since Thailand became a democratic monarchy suggests that if we study the past then we see continuous military interfering in the democratic process. I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion that the US will draw from studying Thailand's history.

This is a very strange remark. "Consider the country, not just the people".

If you take "The people" out of the equation then what of substance do you have left? In most countries the answer would be "very little", because the country and the people are almost synonymous. Why does Thailand think it is somehow special because of its past?

good points, however,

Why does Thailand think it is somehow special because of its past?

It's not Thailand, but the self-appointed PM who thinks that way, and it is most likely because he is not able to come up with any logical, coherent internationally acceptable justification for his own past actions other than the fact that he grabbed power for his own reasons, and (apparently) has no intention of letting it go... After all, the current "plan" has the Junta in direct power longer than the entire administration of the Yingluck government... much longer, in fact.

[docshock13]

"Prayut responded to Russel's comments by saying that his government was trying to achieve a balance between democracy and human rights as well as national security and stability."

One would think that democracy and the protection of human rights would improve national security and stability. And therein lies the PMs flawed logic: he sees these aims as mutually exclusive and in competition with each other as opposed to being delicately intertwined as in most free societies. A valid perspective on the PMs part I suppose given that his raison d'etre and mandate is to maintain the feudal status quo.

[Plutojames88]

This is like being in a game of poker and the guy with beady eyes pretends to have a great hand and keeps raising the stakes.

He is sitting on a pair of Fives and nothing else.

But because he is drunk ( see power trip)

He forgets the others at the table calmly await the time it is to show.

Thailand on the lowest possible tier level for human rights abuses must now show.

But the stalling goes on.

The outcome delayed.

But it's inevitable .

The hand is weak.

And it won't stand up against what's expected .

The bluffing can only take you so far.

And this PM should never be even in the game

[whatawonderfulday]

The Envoy's next stop is North Korea to see what the future holds for Thailand under the current regime

[phoenixdoglover]

The photo is interesting. Under most circumstances, both parties would want to be seen as having a respectful meeting. I am wondering if the photo was an official one given to The Nation, or The Nation had some choices. Either way, it sends a message of disrespect, and is sure to give some satisfaction to those opposed to the US. But efforts like this tend to backfire. What do we remember: the snub by the PM, or the PM's petulance?

The article itself is the usual disjointed stenography typical of the Thai press. A bunch of quotes strung together, with poor attribution (wait, who is being quoted in this sentence...??).

I sometimes wonder if The Nation does this on purpose to make the government look disorganized, but I think journalistic incompetence is the easier explanation.

Edited December 17, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[Farang99]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Farang99

[MZurf]

"It is widely believed that his attitude toward the junta and the military-led government has led to a chill in bilateral ties since the May 22, 2014 coup"

No, it is widely believed that the COUP led to a chill in bilateral ties!

[LomSak27]

spiderkmike007 posted ...

The US has such a bizarre relationship and obsession with the concept of "forced democracy". Libya, Algeria, Egypt and Afghanistan were not exactly success stories

Forced Democracy? Earth to Spider, Afghanistan happened after a terror group launched a war against the US. None of the countries on your laundry list has anything to do with the USA's .... “enforced Democracy”, whatever that is

If you are on the troll team, and hey, there is nothing wrong with that. You need to up your game, or find yourself slinging burgers or another boiler room gig.

[Plutojames88]

The photo itself looks like the PM had been told politely but in no uncertain terms his Government must be replaced by a democratically elected one where the result is fully decided by the populace or your F&/@ed in the future.

The face shows a powerful egocentric man brought to ground and now forced meekly for cameras sake to shake hands but utterly disappointed and shaken by what's been said.

A fly on the wall might have been invaluable if only it could tell us.

Given Russell 's form he might have really shaken the guy up.

But "" off the record "" stuff tends to meet Thai spin ...."" You need to do your homework and study why we do this stuff "" BS .

Similarly the Yanks might have said "" look keep locking kids up and well end up bombing your mother F&8king barracks ....got it"".?

Perhaps wishful thinking ....but the big guy certainly looks aghast

Edited December 17, 2015 by Plutojames88

[retarius]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

The US is actually a kleptocratic corporate-ocracy. Every senator and every congressman is bought and paid for by big business.

[spidermike007]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

The US is actually a kleptocratic corporate-ocracy. Every senator and every congressman is bought and paid for by big business.

It is a republic. The electoral college combined with Pentagon censorship ensures it will never be a true democracy. The correct terminology is prostitute With a business suit. There is little integrity at any level in Washington, one of the most corrupt cities on earth. And they lecture the world on democracy.

[Bpuumike]

"In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past to understand the present and see a clear future. Consider the country, not just the people. Don't just believe me, but study the situation more," Deputy Government Spokesman Werachon Sukondhapatipak quoted Prayut as telling Russel.

Twenty-odd military coups since Thailand became a democratic monarchy suggests that if we study the past then we see continuous military interfering in the democratic process. I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion that the US will draw from studying Thailand's history.

This is a very strange remark. "Consider the country, not just the people".

If you take "The people" out of the equation then what of substance do you have left? In most countries the answer would be "very little", because the country and the people are almost synonymous. Why does Thailand think it is somehow special because of its past?

good points, however,

Why does Thailand think it is somehow special because of its past?

It's not Thailand, but the self-appointed PM who thinks that way, and it is most likely because he is not able to come up with any logical, coherent internationally acceptable justification for his own past actions other than the fact that he grabbed power for his own reasons, and (apparently) has no intention of letting it go... After all, the current "plan" has the Junta in direct power longer than the entire administration of the Yingluck government... much longer, in fact.

The NYT article of 13th December clearly explains the current 'plan' and time frame.

[wwest5829]

"In order to comprehend the situation in Thailand, we have to look into the past to understand the present and see a clear future. Consider the country, not just the people. Don't just believe me, but study the situation more," Deputy Government Spokesman Werachon Sukondhapatipak quoted Prayut as telling Russel.

Twenty-odd military coups since Thailand became a democratic monarchy suggests that if we study the past then we see continuous military interfering in the democratic process. I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion that the US will draw from studying Thailand's history.

This is a very strange remark. "Consider the country, not just the people".

If you take "The people" out of the equation then what of substance do you have left? In most countries the answer would be "very little", because the country and the people are almost synonymous. Why does Thailand think it is somehow special because of its past?

I think that the comment, "consider the county, not just the people" brings to mind the emphasis in the west on individual rights (some would say overemphasis). Not surprising to see the military government, putting more focus on security (control) takes the similar focus we see emphasized in China and elsewhere in Asia. The state is paramount, individual rights secondary. I think I denote a move in this direction in the U.S. trying to be justified in the name of security. I feel much the same as you seem to, what are you securing?

[LannaGuy]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

true and is more akin to feudalism in the 17th century than the modern world

[Thaidream]

The Thai TV news showed the meeting and showed the General greeting the Americans in a welcoming and affable manner. The narrative only presented positive sounding quotes. The picture shown here must be after the meeting and reflects the General not being pleased with the results. I really do not think the US should be lecturing any country regarding their internal affairs. The United States shows a lack of consistency in its dealings with countries. Egypt had a coup and was not criticized because the coup leader ousted a democratically elected leader who leaned towards being an Islamist. The Obama administration shows it knows little of what happens in Thailand or the real reason behind the coup. The American Ambassador's speech in a public forum was an error in policy and shows the lack of understanding on behalf of the US.

[craigt3365]

Which of the countries has to restore democracy? Thailand or The USA?

Neither of them has ever been a true democracy. USA is a republic, while Thailand is a plutocracy.

Depends on your definition of democracy. Splitting hairs methinks:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/

I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

........................

To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level.

[craigt3365]

The Thai TV news showed the meeting and showed the General greeting the Americans in a welcoming and affable manner. The narrative only presented positive sounding quotes. The picture shown here must be after the meeting and reflects the General not being pleased with the results. I really do not think the US should be lecturing any country regarding their internal affairs. The United States shows a lack of consistency in its dealings with countries. Egypt had a coup and was not criticized because the coup leader ousted a democratically elected leader who leaned towards being an Islamist. The Obama administration shows it knows little of what happens in Thailand or the real reason behind the coup. The American Ambassador's speech in a public forum was an error in policy and shows the lack of understanding on behalf of the US.

I guarantee Obama and his administration know exactly what's going on here. More than we do....as exposed by Wikileaks.

[LannaGuy]

The Thai TV news showed the meeting and showed the General greeting the Americans in a welcoming and affable manner. The narrative only presented positive sounding quotes. The picture shown here must be after the meeting and reflects the General not being pleased with the results. I really do not think the US should be lecturing any country regarding their internal affairs. The United States shows a lack of consistency in its dealings with countries. Egypt had a coup and was not criticized because the coup leader ousted a democratically elected leader who leaned towards being an Islamist. The Obama administration shows it knows little of what happens in Thailand or the real reason behind the coup. The American Ambassador's speech in a public forum was an error in policy and shows the lack of understanding on behalf of the US.

Nonsense of course and bringing Egypt into it is obfuscation. Thailand was a democracy and now is not it's that simple

Edited December 17, 2015 by LannaGuy

[bangon04]

"As for Thai-US relations, he said both countries have been in a "love relationship" throughout 180 years of diplomatic ties, in contrast to the "love-hate" relationship the US has with other countries.

However, a series of political situations had affected relations, he said, adding both countries have to be careful in nurturing the ties otherwise it could turn into a love-hate relationship."

So maybe the answer is to go back to basics - if the good General offered the US some nice elephants to use, maybe it would return bilateral relations to their 1862 highs. Or maybe it would be seen as supporting the GOP?