US $1.83 billion arms sales for Taiwan draws China's ire

[tonbridgebrit]

"When the time comes, which is not far away, democracy leaders in Taiwan and in Hong Kong are fully prepared to enter the mainland China to lead in the remaking of the government and society there to a democratic one, to include actual prosperous market economics. Japan and the USA will provide leadership in establishing and developing democracy on the mainland as well. As will Australia and India. As will Chinese in Malaysia, and in Singapore and from elsewhere where Chinese democracy flourishes or where those of Chinese ancestry do flourish in somebody's local brand of democratic society, culture, civilisation.

So it is unmistakable you along with a few other prominent Chinese ancestry posters need to catch up with the world outside of the closed mainland of the CCP Dictators. One must consider and factor political economy, not only economy alone."


Can you please stop trying to be funny.
Hong Kong and Taiwan have no chance with influencing politics in mainland China. They would much rather try to get the massive economic benefits from China. The USA ? America's track record of installing governments in other countries is not exactly good. You do realise that lots of people in mainland China don't like Japan, whether they are being reasonable or not is a different issue.

And little Singapore. They're called a democracy, but we all know that they're not. But still, yes, most Singaporeans do support their government.

[slipperylobster]

It's a reality that the USA with all of their almighty power know they cannot win this war logistically or using their inaccurate nukes and bombs without human tragedies or loss

Chinese on both ends of the straits know this too...they are all Chinese holding different political views and passport Colours

No one is going to shoot each other although for political posturing it's necessary to have a "show and dance"

The only ones panicking and running around like a klutz chicken is the USA who is acting like an aunt on menopause trying to "protect " the Philippines and Taiwanese

Nice job there in Iraq by the way and all the Syrians refugees and European countries taking in the migrants are thanking Uncle Sam again for his "international " intellectual in managing foreign affairs

The Chinese have been talking for years and will carry on talking ...unlike the west ...they have been around for a long time ...mostly talking about wars a few violent ones in between

[Publicus]

It's a reality that the USA with all of their almighty power know they cannot win this war

You forget "soft power,' which is the power of culture. A major reason USA is successful is because it also has soft power. Globalised soft power for a long time. It will continue for a long time.

Soft power originates from the society and the people of the society. Which is why as much as the CCP tries to make its own soft power, it has failed miserably and shall continue to fail miserably in establishing any CCP soft power. You see, the CCP Dictators just don't get it. Soft power does not, cannot, originate at the top among elites, autocrats, oligarchs, those who are massively corrupt and stupid.

CCP China is a cultural and a soft power wasteland. A vast vacuum. it can never be any different or better.

Look at the region and we see Japanese soft power almost everywhere. Japanese soft power is pervasive throughout the region. So is South Korean soft power present and increasing. The Japanese and the South Korean soft power also comes from the people of each democracy where freedom flourishes. It is impossible for soft power or culture to originate with the state. Dictatorship is self defeating.

CCP are born losers and nothing but.

Get yourself out of this CCP Chinese trap Laurence. You're a good guy in many ways. So I suggest you'd be better off accepting the inevitable trends of history. Fighting the obvious and long term trends of history is really unhealthy in many ways. Be accepting.

Hello Publcus.

Yes, you are a good writer, but no mater how good your writing is, well, you're banging the 'wrong' drum.

Your views on Hong Kong are certainly odd, even though you have made a good case ! Okay, Hong Kong's economy is massively linked to China's economy, and Hong Kong benefits enormously from this. The flood of main-land Chinese visitors in Hong Kong, lots of them purchase real estate in Hong Kong, and more and more of them working and living in Hong Kong, this benefits Hong Kong massively. Also, during the colonial era, the biggest reason for Hong Kong's economic prosperity was that it was an import-export gate-way into China. I'm sure you know, Hong Kong acted as a trading post, linking China with the rest of the world, this is what made Hong Kong prosperous.

Hong Kong has always recieved migrant workers from China, and even today, I think the bulk of 'Hong Kongers' have grandparents or parents who were born in main-land China. I do have a smirk on my face when Hong Kong has one of the lowest birth-rates in the world. Hong Kong's population has increased by about 50% in the last four decades. This is certainly not by natural growth (a high birth-rate), it's due to Hong Kong 'importing' workers from main-land China and also by Hong Kong men marrying Chinese women and taking them back to Hong Kong. So, Hong Kong is massively linked to China, and it will continue to be. The link is becoming greater. Yes, you are negative towards the actual Beijing government. The Beijing government might change, it has done so already.

What about Taiwan ? I'm not fully sure, but it's a similar situation to Hong Kong I think. Again, an increasing flood of main-land Chinese tourists, some of them buying real estate in Taiwan. And a lot of Taiwan's manufacturing sector was re-located to China about two or three decades ago. Why have a factory in Taiwan if you can move it to main-land China ? So, Taiwan has also massively benefitted from it's link with China. Oh, and throw in Taiwan men marrying main-land Chinese women !

Yes, Publicus, you dis-like the Beijng government. But China has 1.3 billion Chinese, Hong Kong and Taiwan only have a relatively small number of people, they're Chinese too. Accept the point that Hong Kong and Taiwan will continue to be more and more linked to main-land China. See, they want the Chinese to go there, because it is actually about money (economics).

It's almost like saying, a tiny country is on the edge of the European Union. The EU wants them to join. That country wants to join, they get massive economic benefits, but they are a bit wary. Yes, if you join, you end up being swallowed up by the rest of the EU. China will flood Taiwan and Hong Kong, but Hong Kong and Taiwan can't flood China, they haven't got enough people !!

Thanks for reading.

Yes, Publicus, you dis-like the Beijng government. But China has 1.3 billion Chinese, Hong Kong and Taiwan only have a relatively small number of people, they're Chinese too. Accept the point that Hong Kong and Taiwan will continue to be more and more linked to main-land China. See, they want the Chinese to go there, because it is actually about money (economics).

Well hello there Brit,

It is the classic mainland Chinese error of thinking in terms of raw population numbers. Even some foreign devils can be susceptible to it.

The error is to only consider that the mainland has 1.6 billion people, Taiwan has 25 million. That therefore, as throughout history, the big fish will eat the little fish. It is actually that simple a way of mainland Chinese thinking. Quality does not enter into this equation. Neither does democracy. Neither does free market economics. Taiwan's connections to the USA and Japan are ignored too, much to the standard faulty logic characteristic of the culture and which can be adopted also by others abroad or from abroad.

The January 16 presidential election on Taiwan is fully expected to return to office the independence predicated Democratic Progressive Party. Ms. Tsai Ing-wei is the DPP candidate.

The excellent position of the DPP in the election as indicated all year by reliable and reputable polling (a consistent 30-point lead) was generated by the Sunflower Revolution. Led by young Taiwanese (not Chinese), they seized the parliament building last April and occupied it to stop a big trade deal with the CCP initiated by the pro-Beijing KMT party Prez Ma. Ma's popularity in the polling of recent years is almost identical to the daily low temperatures there this time of year.

One needs to recognise and render credit where credit is due.

Taiwan does not need nor does Taiwan want "one country, two systems." The example of Hong Kong and the "one country two systems" there is strong at this point. CCP is trying fiercely to reduce democracy in HKG to nothing. Hongkongers reject this. So CCP will have to become more forceful in their absolutism that HKG become a one party city, same as any other CCP China city. This absolutism, if the CCP does insist on executing it, can only lead to another Tianamen massacre which will severely condemn the CCP globally and to their great detriment.

Completely ignored in the post is the fact the CCP's economy is not only declining, it is collapsing, crashing.

When the time comes, which is not far away, democracy leaders in Taiwan and in Hong Kong are fully prepared to enter the mainland China to lead in the remaking of the government and society there to a democratic one, to include actual prosperous market economics. Japan and the USA will provide leadership in establishing and developing democracy on the mainland as well. As will Australia and India. As will Chinese in Malaysia, and in Singapore and from elsewhere where Chinese democracy flourishes or where those of Chinese ancestry do flourish in somebody's local brand of democratic society, culture, civilisation.

So it is unmistakable you along with a few other prominent Chinese ancestry posters need to catch up with the world outside of the closed mainland of the CCP Dictators. One must consider and factor political economy, not only economy alone.

Publicus, you're a good writer, but still, you look silly banging the drum that you are banging !

"The error is to only consider that the mainland has 1.6 billion people, Taiwan has 25 million. That therefore, as throughout history, the big fish will eat the little fish. It is actually that simple a way of mainland Chinese thinking. Quality does not enter into this equation. Neither does democracy. Neither does free market economics. Taiwan's connections to the USA and Japan are ignored too, much to the standard faulty logic characteristic of the culture and which can be adopted also by others abroad or from abroad."

The mainland's vast population means that Taiwan might be able to receive a far bigger flood of tourists in the future. Taiwan is hoping to tap into this vast potential, regardless of who is in charge of Taiwan. Yes, some people in Taiwan don't like the Beijing government, but the bulk of people in Taiwan want more and more economic prosperity. And Taiwan men are not exactly going to Japan or America to marry a lady. They are going to China, this is because Chinese men want Chinese wives, hence, Taiwan men are going to main-land China !

Taiwan does have strong links with Japan and the USA, but it's economic links with China are growing constantly. China is pumping far more money into Taiwan than America and Japan combined. And lots of people in Taiwan are far more driven by money than by poltical links to America and Japan. Basically, Taiwan is stuck in a dilema, some of them don't like the Beijing government, but most of them love the economic benefits of being flooded by Chinese tourists and Chinese money for real estate.

Regarding Hong Kong. They do regard themselves as Chinese. Yes, people in Hong Kong ARE slightly 'racist' ! Hong Kong has a very low birth-rate, and it is importing a load of mainland workers to solve it's own labour shortages. However, Hong Kong is NOT importing workers from places like Bangladesh and Sudan, why ? Simple, because they are 'racist', they would rather bring in Chinese from mainland China. You've got to bear in mind that most people in Hong Kong are such that, their parents or grand-parents were born in mainland China. And you notice how Hong Kong men go to China to get a girlfriend/wife, and how they don't go to places like Indonesia/Bangladesh/Sudan. I'm not going to criticise Hong Kong people for being racist. If I did, I would have to criticise a whole load of other people, as in Thais and Japanese.

It's an old saying among lawyers (which I am not) that when you have the facts, pound on the facts. That when you don't have the facts pound on the table. It is obvious you have a kettle drum instead cause you keep pounding and banging on that and within a limited range of notes. The Percussionist.

All that's stated in the posts pertaining to personal social interaction and in economics from the kitchen to the shores are indeed obvious everyday facts. Pounding on the everyday obvious personal facts and home economics is what makes the percussionist swing away with abandon after everyone has gone home. Get out of the mundane and banal everyday facts of life.

Reading the posts is getting to be like reading the Daily Bugle beginning always at the page that presents the newly betrothed .

You're overdue to show you can play more than one note. So before your bridge might fall, here are some unaddressed specifics....for the moment....

Kindly address the Sunflower Revolution that broke out this year in Taiwan, against the CCP and the ruling party KMT.

Kindly make some mention of the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong of recent years. The two have linked up y'know. (Feel free to present any social information you might know on which leaders are dating which other leaders, which ones might be gay, and where everyone's financing originates.)

Kindly make some mention of the grinding long term decline in the CCP economy and of how it has become marked by recurring collapses and crashes.

Thx in advance for providing what could be a brief preamble to our further discourse about the CCP Dictators.

All the same, while the posts dwell on certain everyday aspects of inter-Chinese relations, they ignore the several elephants in the room, a few of which are now before you to deal with.

(Don't need or welcome the patronising writing flattery btw.)

[Publicus]

"When the time comes, which is not far away, democracy leaders in Taiwan and in Hong Kong are fully prepared to enter the mainland China to lead in the remaking of the government and society there to a democratic one, to include actual prosperous market economics. Japan and the USA will provide leadership in establishing and developing democracy on the mainland as well. As will Australia and India. As will Chinese in Malaysia, and in Singapore and from elsewhere where Chinese democracy flourishes or where those of Chinese ancestry do flourish in somebody's local brand of democratic society, culture, civilisation.

So it is unmistakable you along with a few other prominent Chinese ancestry posters need to catch up with the world outside of the closed mainland of the CCP Dictators. One must consider and factor political economy, not only economy alone."

Can you please stop trying to be funny.

Hong Kong and Taiwan have no chance with influencing politics in mainland China. They would much rather try to get the massive economic benefits from China. The USA ? America's track record of installing governments in other countries is not exactly good. You do realise that lots of people in mainland China don't like Japan, whether they are being reasonable or not is a different issue.

And little Singapore. They're called a democracy, but we all know that they're not. But still, yes, most Singaporeans do support their government.

My post said when and you quote it, so it's hard to see how you could miss the reference to the post-CCP era of China.

Here in italics is what I wrote and that you quoted. I'm not talking about tomorrow or next year etc: "When the time comes, which is not far away, democracy leaders in Taiwan and in Hong Kong are fully prepared to enter the mainland China to lead in the remaking of the government and society there to a democratic one, to include actual prosperous market economics.

Whatever could allow or lead you to think I would have been referring to this occurring under the present period of CCP rule and control.

The CCP paramilitary People's Armed Police consist of 850,000 stormtroopers in 48 divisions stationed in all the provinces to defend dictatorship. They are radically different from the unarmed Public Safety Police or the rarely armed Public Security Police.

My posts also referred to localised brands of democracy. Singapore is certainly one among a couple of dozen of 'em in this region of the world.

Tedious.

[Publicus]

It's a reality that the USA with all of their almighty power know they cannot win this war logistically or using their inaccurate nukes and bombs without human tragedies or loss

Chinese on both ends of the straits know this too...they are all Chinese holding different political views and passport Colours

No one is going to shoot each other although for political posturing it's necessary to have a "show and dance"

The only ones panicking and running around like a klutz chicken is the USA who is acting like an aunt on menopause trying to "protect " the Philippines and Taiwanese

Nice job there in Iraq by the way and all the Syrians refugees and European countries taking in the migrants are thanking Uncle Sam again for his "international " intellectual in managing foreign affairs

The Chinese have been talking for years and will carry on talking ...unlike the west ...they have been around for a long time ...mostly talking about wars a few violent ones in between

Good reply. i like it.

Soon he'll be singing the praises of Vladimir Putin.

That too will be a hoot.

[tonbridgebrit]

"When the time comes, which is not far away, democracy leaders in......".

Which is not far away. Next week ? Next month ? Next year ? Twenty years from now ? Fifty years from now ?

[tonbridgebrit]

"Kindly address the Sunflower Revolution that broke out this year in Taiwan, against the CCP and the ruling party KMT.

Kindly make some mention of the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong of recent years. The two have linked up y'know. (Feel free to present any social information you might know on which leaders are dating which other leaders, which ones might be gay, and where everyone's financing originates.)

Kindly make some mention of the grinding long term decline in the CCP economy and of how it has become marked by recurring collapses and crashes.

Thx in advance for providing what could be a brief preamble to our further discourse about the CCP Dictators.

All the same, while the posts dwell on certain everyday aspects of inter-Chinese relations, they ignore the several elephants in the room, a few of which are now before you to deal with."


The Sunflower Revolution in Taiwan. I can't say I know a lot about them, but I say this. What is their intention regarding the mass flood of Chinese tourists entering Taiwan ? Do they want to stop the flood getting bigger ? What about the increasing numbers of main-land Chinese buying real estate in Taiwan ? Do they want to prevent new people buying real estate ? Most of the big Taiwanese companies have a fair bit of their business in mainland China, do those big companies want to see Beijing being angry with Taiwan ?

Okay, about Hong Kong. The Umbrella thing. Hong Kong groups that don't like Beijing have existed for decades, they're not a recent thing. Not everybody in Hong Kong supported or backed them demonstrators last year. And everybody was free to be a demonstrator, yet, how many demonstrators were actually there ? It wasn't that massive a number. Some of the local retailers wanted the demonstrators to leave and demonstrate somewhere else. A fair number of people in Hong Kong reckon that the demonstrators were being silly. They reckon that Hong Kong does still have plenty of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of etc. Why bring about a demonstration that blocks traffic, and it might reduce the number of visitors/tourists from China and other countries. I'm only trying to say, we shouldn't start thinking that masses of people supported the demonstrations. Most people were actually indifferent, that's their right and freedom of choice.


You've made comments regarding the collapse of the Chinese economy. Those are your opinions, and the media in America has constantly been making these predictions and comments since the credit crunch/collapse in 2008. I'ill make a prediction myself. Correct, China won't have 7 or 8% economic growth during the next one or two years. The growth rate will drop to about 4%, and then back to 7 or 8% growth in 2018 and 2019. China's economy is based on exporting a huge amount of cheap goods to America and the EU, and having a massive trade surplus. This is what's being used to finance the giant infra-structure projects in China.
Correct, there is the accusation that Beijng is naughty, it is carrying out 'rigged capitalism', the contracts dished out are mainly given to Chinese companies. Japan also imports a vast amount of cheap goods from China. Wages in China are still far lower than the USA, EU and Japan. There's no way those countries are going to re-build their factories and produce their own goods, they will carry on importing Chinese goods. Hence, the main reason for China's economic growth during the last three decades will continue for the time being, probably for the another decade.

[LawrenceChee]

It's a reality that the USA with all of their almighty power know they cannot win this war logistically or using their inaccurate nukes and bombs without human tragedies or loss

Chinese on both ends of the straits know this too...they are all Chinese holding different political views and passport Colours

No one is going to shoot each other although for political posturing it's necessary to have a "show and dance"

The only ones panicking and running around like a klutz chicken is the USA who is acting like an aunt on menopause trying to "protect " the Philippines and Taiwanese

Nice job there in Iraq by the way and all the Syrians refugees and European countries taking in the migrants are thanking Uncle Sam again for his "international " intellectual in managing foreign affairs

The Chinese have been talking for years and will carry on talking ...unlike the west ...they have been around for a long time ...mostly talking about wars a few violent ones in between

Good reply. i like it.

Soon he'll be singing the praises of Vladimir Putin.

That too will be a hoot.

No leadership is perfect and every leader have their flaws ...while perhaps by some doctrines you may hate the CCP and think Putin is nuts

There are also pockets who like his strong leadership and ability to make things happen and while not everyone may like the CCP government , they tolerate it like your fellow Americans tolerate idiot presidential candidates like Trump

On an ironical sense that's democracy as everyone has an opinion it's how they voice it out where you seem to have difficulty understanding and insisting only one method or one opinion is correct which in many ways does not seem to represent what America and free democracies are about ...

The Taiwanese don't like the China like a wild rock concert fan but they know realistically inside that they won't survive without China too ....from a trading point and economies

The USA or EU have their own issues , they won't divert all trade to Taiwan just to make a point ...Politicians are pragmatic creatures everyone love a good resume

[Publicus]

It's a reality that the USA with all of their almighty power know they cannot win this war logistically or using their inaccurate nukes and bombs without human tragedies or loss

Chinese on both ends of the straits know this too...they are all Chinese holding different political views and passport Colours

No one is going to shoot each other although for political posturing it's necessary to have a "show and dance"

The only ones panicking and running around like a klutz chicken is the USA who is acting like an aunt on menopause trying to "protect " the Philippines and Taiwanese

Nice job there in Iraq by the way and all the Syrians refugees and European countries taking in the migrants are thanking Uncle Sam again for his "international " intellectual in managing foreign affairs

The Chinese have been talking for years and will carry on talking ...unlike the west ...they have been around for a long time ...mostly talking about wars a few violent ones in between

Good reply. i like it.

Soon he'll be singing the praises of Vladimir Putin.

That too will be a hoot.

No leadership is perfect and every leader have their flaws ...while perhaps by some doctrines you may hate the CCP and think Putin is nuts

There are also pockets who like his strong leadership and ability to make things happen and while not everyone may like the CCP government , they tolerate it like your fellow Americans tolerate idiot presidential candidates like Trump

On an ironical sense that's democracy as everyone has an opinion it's how they voice it out where you seem to have difficulty understanding and insisting only one method or one opinion is correct which in many ways does not seem to represent what America and free democracies are about ...

The Taiwanese don't like the China like a wild rock concert fan but they know realistically inside that they won't survive without China too ....from a trading point and economies

The USA or EU have their own issues , they won't divert all trade to Taiwan just to make a point ...Politicians are pragmatic creatures everyone love a good resume

On an ironical sense that's democracy as everyone has an opinion it's how they voice it out where you seem to have difficulty understanding and insisting only one method or one opinion is correct which in many ways does not seem to represent what America and free democracies are about ...

The reference is to classic liberalism. And the reference in the post needs correcting.

It is in the open civilised clash of the opinions and from the open clash that the truth of the moment emerges. The clash(es) are of the moment, and the clashes occur repeatedly. The 'truth' of the moment evolves as the clashes continue. The tried and true process has no visible end or end point. In post-European Enlightenment terms, it is an evolution; evolutionary, and is related directly to the Age of Reason. All of which emanate from the modern world.

Technically, the USA is a republic. Its form of government however is democracy....liberal democracy. The People's Republic of China is a republic of dictatorship, i.e., presenting and enforcing a one party unitary Truth in a one party state. Taiwan is a republic and it has its own form of democracy.

So you are wrong again.

The open and continuing clashes of firmly held opinion and belief do in fact represent "what American and free democracies are about." The long and the short of it is that no CCP is in a position to speak to what American democracy is, does, represents. CCP fanboyz included.

From a policy standpoint, the US selling arms to Taiwan on a regular basis as required by US law isn't in itself going to stop the CCP in its truly fanatic determination to take control of Taiwan. It does remind the CCP however that the USA and Taiwan continue to be aligned and that the USA is by law committed to the military defense of Taiwan. After all, CCP continues to have 800+ missiles across the Strait pointed at Taiwan, its cities, its population centers, its military installations. Why? Because Taiwan is a democracy and because virtually no one there considers himself CCP Chinese.

[Publicus]

"Kindly address the Sunflower Revolution that broke out this year in Taiwan, against the CCP and the ruling party KMT.

Kindly make some mention of the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong of recent years. The two have linked up y'know. (Feel free to present any social information you might know on which leaders are dating which other leaders, which ones might be gay, and where everyone's financing originates.)

Kindly make some mention of the grinding long term decline in the CCP economy and of how it has become marked by recurring collapses and crashes.

Thx in advance for providing what could be a brief preamble to our further discourse about the CCP Dictators.

All the same, while the posts dwell on certain everyday aspects of inter-Chinese relations, they ignore the several elephants in the room, a few of which are now before you to deal with."

The Sunflower Revolution in Taiwan. I can't say I know a lot about them, but I say this. What is their intention regarding the mass flood of Chinese tourists entering Taiwan ? Do they want to stop the flood getting bigger ? What about the increasing numbers of main-land Chinese buying real estate in Taiwan ? Do they want to prevent new people buying real estate ? Most of the big Taiwanese companies have a fair bit of their business in mainland China, do those big companies want to see Beijing being angry with Taiwan ?

Okay, about Hong Kong. The Umbrella thing. Hong Kong groups that don't like Beijing have existed for decades, they're not a recent thing. Not everybody in Hong Kong supported or backed them demonstrators last year. And everybody was free to be a demonstrator, yet, how many demonstrators were actually there ? It wasn't that massive a number. Some of the local retailers wanted the demonstrators to leave and demonstrate somewhere else. A fair number of people in Hong Kong reckon that the demonstrators were being silly. They reckon that Hong Kong does still have plenty of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of etc. Why bring about a demonstration that blocks traffic, and it might reduce the number of visitors/tourists from China and other countries. I'm only trying to say, we shouldn't start thinking that masses of people supported the demonstrations. Most people were actually indifferent, that's their right and freedom of choice.

You've made comments regarding the collapse of the Chinese economy. Those are your opinions, and the media in America has constantly been making these predictions and comments since the credit crunch/collapse in 2008. I'ill make a prediction myself. Correct, China won't have 7 or 8% economic growth during the next one or two years. The growth rate will drop to about 4%, and then back to 7 or 8% growth in 2018 and 2019. China's economy is based on exporting a huge amount of cheap goods to America and the EU, and having a massive trade surplus. This is what's being used to finance the giant infra-structure projects in China.

Correct, there is the accusation that Beijng is naughty, it is carrying out 'rigged capitalism', the contracts dished out are mainly given to Chinese companies. Japan also imports a vast amount of cheap goods from China. Wages in China are still far lower than the USA, EU and Japan. There's no way those countries are going to re-build their factories and produce their own goods, they will carry on importing Chinese goods. Hence, the main reason for China's economic growth during the last three decades will continue for the time being, probably for the another decade.

The Sunflower Revolution in Taiwan. I can't say I know a lot about them, but I say this.

Now you've walked away from pounding a kettle drum to pick up a snare drum to continuously rat-a-tat-tat, rat-a-tat-tat the same old big fish eats little fish rat-a-tat-tat.

Okay, about Hong Kong. The Umbrella thing.

Eloquent indeed.

You missed it the first time, so it bears reiterating......

Chinese Check: Forging New Identities in Hong Kong and Taiwan

Taiwan

The latest poll, also conducted in June, found that 60.4 percent of respondents identify as Taiwanese, a historic high and up from 17.6 percent in 1992, when the study was first conducted. Only 32.7 percent of those questioned identified as “both Taiwanese and Chinese,” down from 46.4 percent in 1992. A measly 3.5 percent identified as Chinese, down from 10.5 percent in 1992. (emphasis added)

Hong Kong

Not only do those identifying themselves as Hong Kongers significantly outnumber those identifying themselves as Chinese, but that divergence seems to be growing. These trends are evident across age groups, but particularly pronounced within the 18- to 29-year-old cohort. In 1997, 16.5 percent of 18- to 29-year-olds held an ethnic identity of “Chinese,” a share which dropped to 3.6 percent in the latest survey. Over the same time, the share of young people holding an ethnic identity of “Hongkonger” [sic] increased from 46.2 percent to 53.1 percent. (emphasis added)

https://www.aei.org/...-kong-taiwan-2/

FYI, the Umbrella Movement in HKG got its name from the demonstrators as they packed the streets using umbrellas against police tear gas. It was in fact this relatively mild CCP response that overnight brought out new sympathiser demonstrators to join the protests to stop the CCP dismantling democracy in HKG. And this relatively mild CCP reaction was a significant event in turning public opinion more for the pro-democracy demonstrators.

Traditional Chinese in HKG worry that the demonstrators do not miss lunch, and that protestors be sure to get their sleep out there on the sidewalks and in the occupied streets. Traditional HKG Chinese accept that if the demonstrators are going to do this that is their thing, they still take care of themselves. So when the CCP tear gased the protesters, traditional HKG Chinese were shocked speechless at such a harsh treatment of the well-meaning young boys and girls from colleges, high schools, to include the new generation of HKG yuppies.

[WaiLai]

America has China by the balls.

If America stopped the flow of imports from China they would be in a massive depression on a scale never seen before.

Let China posture all they like. Its amusing.

Will be more amusing for you to explain to your middle and Low income families all of a sudden Costco and Walmart is empty and Barbie dolls during Black Friday sales is now $50 a pop

Go and pay $300 for your Christmas blinkers and when new year is here , I hope you still have an aunt who can make decorations coz the $1 streamers made in China is no longer available in target

Merry Christmas !

Amusing anecdote but wrong in predictions. You don't think the masters of capitalism will find cheaper priced goods? and just imagine the sense of nationalism that will swell in the USA for "doing their part" to stem the influence of China

You highly underestimate the American people!

They are the most violent capitalists on the planet!

They bankrupted the Soviet Union and are playing parlour games with China!

[hansgruber]

America has China by the balls.

If America stopped the flow of imports from China they would be in a massive depression on a scale never seen before.

Let China posture all they like. Its amusing.

I think if China called in the 1.5 Trillion debt owed to it by America I think you could say that China has America very firmly by the balls!

I was referring to if a war broke out between the two nations.

America wouldn't pay the debts and imports of Chinese products would cease and cripple their country on a scale never seen.

China needs the U.S more than the U.S needs them.

[tonbridgebrit]

"Kindly address the Sunflower Revolution that broke out this year in Taiwan, against the CCP and the ruling party KMT.

Kindly make some mention of the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong of recent years. The two have linked up y'know. (Feel free to present any social information you might know on which leaders are dating which other leaders, which ones might be gay, and where everyone's financing originates.)

Kindly make some mention of the grinding long term decline in the CCP economy and of how it has become marked by recurring collapses and crashes.

Thx in advance for providing what could be a brief preamble to our further discourse about the CCP Dictators.

All the same, while the posts dwell on certain everyday aspects of inter-Chinese relations, they ignore the several elephants in the room, a few of which are now before you to deal with."

The Sunflower Revolution in Taiwan. I can't say I know a lot about them, but I say this. What is their intention regarding the mass flood of Chinese tourists entering Taiwan ? Do they want to stop the flood getting bigger ? What about the increasing numbers of main-land Chinese buying real estate in Taiwan ? Do they want to prevent new people buying real estate ? Most of the big Taiwanese companies have a fair bit of their business in mainland China, do those big companies want to see Beijing being angry with Taiwan ?

Okay, about Hong Kong. The Umbrella thing. Hong Kong groups that don't like Beijing have existed for decades, they're not a recent thing. Not everybody in Hong Kong supported or backed them demonstrators last year. And everybody was free to be a demonstrator, yet, how many demonstrators were actually there ? It wasn't that massive a number. Some of the local retailers wanted the demonstrators to leave and demonstrate somewhere else. A fair number of people in Hong Kong reckon that the demonstrators were being silly. They reckon that Hong Kong does still have plenty of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of etc. Why bring about a demonstration that blocks traffic, and it might reduce the number of visitors/tourists from China and other countries. I'm only trying to say, we shouldn't start thinking that masses of people supported the demonstrations. Most people were actually indifferent, that's their right and freedom of choice.

You've made comments regarding the collapse of the Chinese economy. Those are your opinions, and the media in America has constantly been making these predictions and comments since the credit crunch/collapse in 2008. I'ill make a prediction myself. Correct, China won't have 7 or 8% economic growth during the next one or two years. The growth rate will drop to about 4%, and then back to 7 or 8% growth in 2018 and 2019. China's economy is based on exporting a huge amount of cheap goods to America and the EU, and having a massive trade surplus. This is what's being used to finance the giant infra-structure projects in China.

Correct, there is the accusation that Beijng is naughty, it is carrying out 'rigged capitalism', the contracts dished out are mainly given to Chinese companies. Japan also imports a vast amount of cheap goods from China. Wages in China are still far lower than the USA, EU and Japan. There's no way those countries are going to re-build their factories and produce their own goods, they will carry on importing Chinese goods. Hence, the main reason for China's economic growth during the last three decades will continue for the time being, probably for the another decade.

The Sunflower Revolution in Taiwan. I can't say I know a lot about them, but I say this.

Now you've walked away from pounding a kettle drum to pick up a snare drum to continuously rat-a-tat-tat, rat-a-tat-tat the same old big fish eats little fish rat-a-tat-tat.

Okay, about Hong Kong. The Umbrella thing.

Eloquent indeed.

You missed it the first time, so it bears reiterating......

Chinese Check: Forging New Identities in Hong Kong and Taiwan

Taiwan

The latest poll, also conducted in June, found that 60.4 percent of respondents identify as Taiwanese, a historic high and up from 17.6 percent in 1992, when the study was first conducted. Only 32.7 percent of those questioned identified as “both Taiwanese and Chinese,” down from 46.4 percent in 1992. A measly 3.5 percent identified as Chinese, down from 10.5 percent in 1992. (emphasis added)

Hong Kong

Not only do those identifying themselves as Hong Kongers significantly outnumber those identifying themselves as Chinese, but that divergence seems to be growing. These trends are evident across age groups, but particularly pronounced within the 18- to 29-year-old cohort. In 1997, 16.5 percent of 18- to 29-year-olds held an ethnic identity of “Chinese,” a share which dropped to 3.6 percent in the latest survey. Over the same time, the share of young people holding an ethnic identity of “Hongkonger” [sic] increased from 46.2 percent to 53.1 percent. (emphasis added)

https://www.aei.org/...-kong-taiwan-2/

FYI, the Umbrella Movement in HKG got its name from the demonstrators as they packed the streets using umbrellas against police tear gas. It was in fact this relatively mild CCP response that overnight brought out new sympathiser demonstrators to join the protests to stop the CCP dismantling democracy in HKG. And this relatively mild CCP reaction was a significant event in turning public opinion more for the pro-democracy demonstrators.

Traditional Chinese in HKG worry that the demonstrators do not miss lunch, and that protestors be sure to get their sleep out there on the sidewalks and in the occupied streets. Traditional HKG Chinese accept that if the demonstrators are going to do this that is their thing, they still take care of themselves. So when the CCP tear gased the protesters, traditional HKG Chinese were shocked speechless at such a harsh treatment of the well-meaning young boys and girls from colleges, high schools, to include the new generation of HKG yuppies.

Publicus, you are walking away and refusing to comment on the massive issues that are at the very core of Taiwan.

Whoever it is who governs Taiwan, they are going to have to tackle fully the following issues : what are they going to do about the increasing flood of mainland Chinese tourists, what about the mainlanders using a wall of money to buy real estate in Taiwan, and Taiwan's economy becoming increasingly connected to China. Are they going to try and reduce the number of mainland Chinese turning up in Taiwan for a visit ? Are they going to try and replace them with tourists from Japan, USA and other countries ? Are they going to restrict Chinese buying up real estate in Taiwan ? Are they going to reduce trade with mainland China, and try and increase trade with the rest of the world ? Are they going to dis-courage Taiwanese going to China for work ? (Taiwanese companies have opened up production plants in China, and new branches in China, they need some Taiwanese to be in mainland China). And very important, are they going to restrict Taiwanese men from getting a mainland Chinese wife and taking her back to Taiwan ?

Babies that are born in Taiwan, how many mainland Chinese women have given birth to Taiwan babies ?

You are refusing to comment. Is it because you reckon it is absurd for Taiwan to reduce the increasing flood of Chinese tourists ?

About Hong Kong. Oh, so Chinese in Hong Kong reckon that they are Hong Kongers, and not the same as the Chinese in mainland China ??

That might be the case. But, that does NOT stop a load of Hong Kong men going to mainland China, getting a girlfriend/wife, and wanting to take her back to Hong Kong. Babies born in Hong Kong, how many of them are such that the mother is basically an 'immigrant' from mainland China ?

That doesn't change the issue of Hong Kong youngsters not wanting to do unskilled labour, (a bit like Thai youngsters) and how Hong Kong is 'importing' workers from mainland China. Shall we see how the Hong Kong Chinese react to a stack of workers from Bangladesh or Sudan turning up in Hong Kong ? You will then see how racist 'Hong Kongers' are. Just as racist as the Japanese, Koreans,etc.

And so, whatever happens to Hong Kong, whoever runs it, the place will benefit (or be reliant on ) from it's massive links with China. Why antagonise Beijing ?

If I was in charge of Beijing, I might actually have a giggle and do the following. I'ill draft in rules that will make it a bit more difficult for mainland Chinese to visit Hong Kong, I'ill stop Chinese from going to casinos in Macau and the rest of Asia, I'ill restrict Chinese women from marrying Hong Kong men. I'ill do all this for a few months, watch Hong Kong have pain, and then go back to 'normal'.

[Publicus]

Publicus, you are walking away and refusing to comment on the massive issues that are at the very core of Taiwan.

Whoever it is who governs Taiwan, they are going to have to tackle fully the following issues : what are they going to do about the increasing flood of mainland Chinese tourists, what about the mainlanders using a wall of money to buy real estate in Taiwan, and Taiwan's economy becoming increasingly connected to China. Are they going to try and reduce the number of mainland Chinese turning up in Taiwan for a visit ? Are they going to try and replace them with tourists from Japan, USA and other countries ? Are they going to restrict Chinese buying up real estate in Taiwan ? Are they going to reduce trade with mainland China, and try and increase trade with the rest of the world ? Are they going to dis-courage Taiwanese going to China for work ? (Taiwanese companies have opened up production plants in China, and new branches in China, they need some Taiwanese to be in mainland China). And very important, are they going to restrict Taiwanese men from getting a mainland Chinese wife and taking her back to Taiwan ?

Babies that are born in Taiwan, how many mainland Chinese women have given birth to Taiwan babies ?

You are refusing to comment. Is it because you reckon it is absurd for Taiwan to reduce the increasing flood of Chinese tourists ?

About Hong Kong. Oh, so Chinese in Hong Kong reckon that they are Hong Kongers, and not the same as the Chinese in mainland China ??

That might be the case. But, that does NOT stop a load of Hong Kong men going to mainland China, getting a girlfriend/wife, and wanting to take her back to Hong Kong. Babies born in Hong Kong, how many of them are such that the mother is basically an 'immigrant' from mainland China ?

That doesn't change the issue of Hong Kong youngsters not wanting to do unskilled labour, (a bit like Thai youngsters) and how Hong Kong is 'importing' workers from mainland China. Shall we see how the Hong Kong Chinese react to a stack of workers from Bangladesh or Sudan turning up in Hong Kong ? You will then see how racist 'Hong Kongers' are. Just as racist as the Japanese, Koreans,etc.

And so, whatever happens to Hong Kong, whoever runs it, the place will benefit (or be reliant on ) from it's massive links with China. Why antagonise Beijing ?

If I was in charge of Beijing, I might actually have a giggle and do the following. I'ill draft in rules that will make it a bit more difficult for mainland Chinese to visit Hong Kong, I'ill stop Chinese from going to casinos in Macau and the rest of Asia, I'ill restrict Chinese women from marrying Hong Kong men. I'ill do all this for a few months, watch Hong Kong have pain, and then go back to 'normal'.

No need to get the blood pressure up over non-issues.

The percussionist needs to know when to tap his kettle drum and when to remain at the ready. The key is to be able to read the music and to follow it precisely. To have the feel of it all.

Changes the independence based Democratic Progressive Party would make after its candidate Tsai Ing-wen might as expected win election January 16 are in political relations.

Ms. Tsai has been leading in all the reliable and reputable polls all year, during recent months by an average of a 30 point lead. The governing party KMT switched its nominee for prez but it remains in the polling teens, in its very distant second place. (3 candidates running.)

The polling supports Ms. Tsai and the DPP's advocacy of the Cross Straits Agreement Supervisory Act as proposed by leaders of the Sunflower Revolution that drives the present DPP. It was the mass of sunflowers that in April seized control of the parliament building to stop a trade in services proposal that over time would have opened the Taiwan economy to significant CCP control. This Tsai-DPP newly proposed law would provide trade in services under a strict Taiwanese supervision. There's no break or breakoff occurring or in the works.

This is a strong example of the legislation a Pres. Tsai and the DPP would move through the national legislature.

Further, Ms Tsai advocates increasing high end tourism from the mainland. She is critical of the cheap package tour visitor from the mainland to Taiwan. And DPP wants to get more of the lucrative tourism income into the hands of industry workers, with not as much going exorbitantly to its owners.

Ms. Tsai and DPP want a new economic strategy and to address the low tax base of Taiwan after decades of domination by the KMT.

People can continue to get married. Hong Kong has however already passed laws against mainland women arriving in HKG to have a baby born there so it can be eligible for dual citizenship. Chinese born on the mainland are strictly prohibited dual citizenship.

One young native Chinese couple on the mainland I continue to have contact with had their first son born in HKG. They made him a dual citizen, of Canada too, where they themselves have their single citizenship from their university days there. By the time the second son had been born, the HKG law had been changed to prohibit such visitor births from the mainland. Now the second son can have only one citizenship (Canada), which is what the parents have. Because the CCP prohibits dual citizenship of its mainland population, the parents quit their natural Chinese citizenship to become citizens of Canada exclusively. The parents are native born Chinese who have taken Canadian citizenship, so they each need to do visa runs to HKG twice yearly while they remain on the mainland. They have factories on the mainland but will return to Canada after their next million.

CCP loses again.

It is also true the traveling to the mainland to take a Chinese bride back to Taiwan or to HKG is not much longer for this world anyway. It will soon need to be stopped, completely separately of who is in government in Taiwan. The mainland gender ratio of births is 116 boys for every 100 girls. Mainland men and their parents do not want males from off the mainland coming in to swoop up already scarce opposite sex spouses. This has nothing to do with who is in government in Taiwan or in respect of democracy in HKG.

One could go on. But I'd think that kettle drum you're lugging around gets pretty heavy after a while.

This arms sale to Taiwan has had no impact on the presidential election on the island. It was not an issue in Sunday's first nationally televised candidates' debate. In fact....

DPP Secretary-General Joseph Wu said that the party thanks and supports a U.S. announcement of new arms sales to Taiwan.

Wu said the United States is a major security partner and that the arms sales highlight the fact that the United States, in a substantive move, is delivering its promise under the Taiwan Relations Act and its Six Assurances to Taiwan.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/presidential-election/2015/12/18/453800/Arms-sales.htm

If you support the CCP Dictators in Beijing incorporating Taiwan into the CCP one party state scheme, just say so. CCP says Taiwan is a province of the PRC. Taiwan says it is an independent country, the Republic of China. What do you say???

Everyone on Taiwan and in Beijing know what the DPP wants.

The only question is whether Taiwan voters Jan 16 will give the DPP a majority in the parliament. If DPP gets outnumbered in parliament, then it will be a check/balance on it. If DPP gets a legislative majority, then it will mean Beijing's duck is cooked.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

America has China by the balls.

If America stopped the flow of imports from China they would be in a massive depression on a scale never seen before.

Let China posture all they like. Its amusing.

Will be more amusing for you to explain to your middle and Low income families all of a sudden Costco and Walmart is empty and Barbie dolls during Black Friday sales is now $50 a pop

Go and pay $300 for your Christmas blinkers and when new year is here , I hope you still have an aunt who can make decorations coz the $1 streamers made in China is no longer available in target

Merry Christmas !

Amusing anecdote but wrong in predictions. You don't think the masters of capitalism will find cheaper priced goods? and just imagine the sense of nationalism that will swell in the USA for "doing their part" to stem the influence of China

You highly underestimate the American people!

They are the most violent capitalists on the planet!

They bankrupted the Soviet Union and are playing parlour games with China!

I think you could join that idiot trump who sports rubbish ....masters of capitalism ???? Cheaper prices goods ????.... this is the typical western enslavery selfish thinking that got us into this pollution cycle in China now and causing tons of babies and children to grow up without having fresh air while you enjoy the best at home and exporting your pollution to poorer countries

Great that President Xi is putting the first steps to it and hopefully the next 3 presidents will have the tenacity to carry out the 30 year program

U Sounds like a dictator and all knowing and tramping on poorer countries to make your cheap imports ...have you seen any of the factories in Dongguan making your cheap target crap ...

I have even assisting Chinese migrants for years and it's disgusting what you are doing to China just so you can keep under your Christmas decoration Budget of $100 for the entire yard !

Moving to Vietnam and Cambodia are options yes but you would destroy the communities there with your cheap lures of factory jobs and then not checking the owners forcing enslavery conditions in Asia

This is the disgusting attitude why the Arabs have rejected all your peace talk and suggestions of democracy ...it's really rubbish with no good intent and no Long term future just what you think is best

[tonbridgebrit]

Publicus, you are walking away and refusing to comment on the massive issues that are at the very core of Taiwan.

Whoever it is who governs Taiwan, they are going to have to tackle fully the following issues : what are they going to do about the increasing flood of mainland Chinese tourists, what about the mainlanders using a wall of money to buy real estate in Taiwan, and Taiwan's economy becoming increasingly connected to China. Are they going to try and reduce the number of mainland Chinese turning up in Taiwan for a visit ? Are they going to try and replace them with tourists from Japan, USA and other countries ? Are they going to restrict Chinese buying up real estate in Taiwan ? Are they going to reduce trade with mainland China, and try and increase trade with the rest of the world ? Are they going to dis-courage Taiwanese going to China for work ? (Taiwanese companies have opened up production plants in China, and new branches in China, they need some Taiwanese to be in mainland China). And very important, are they going to restrict Taiwanese men from getting a mainland Chinese wife and taking her back to Taiwan ?

Babies that are born in Taiwan, how many mainland Chinese women have given birth to Taiwan babies ?

You are refusing to comment. Is it because you reckon it is absurd for Taiwan to reduce the increasing flood of Chinese tourists ?

About Hong Kong. Oh, so Chinese in Hong Kong reckon that they are Hong Kongers, and not the same as the Chinese in mainland China ??

That might be the case. But, that does NOT stop a load of Hong Kong men going to mainland China, getting a girlfriend/wife, and wanting to take her back to Hong Kong. Babies born in Hong Kong, how many of them are such that the mother is basically an 'immigrant' from mainland China ?

That doesn't change the issue of Hong Kong youngsters not wanting to do unskilled labour, (a bit like Thai youngsters) and how Hong Kong is 'importing' workers from mainland China. Shall we see how the Hong Kong Chinese react to a stack of workers from Bangladesh or Sudan turning up in Hong Kong ? You will then see how racist 'Hong Kongers' are. Just as racist as the Japanese, Koreans,etc.

And so, whatever happens to Hong Kong, whoever runs it, the place will benefit (or be reliant on ) from it's massive links with China. Why antagonise Beijing ?

If I was in charge of Beijing, I might actually have a giggle and do the following. I'ill draft in rules that will make it a bit more difficult for mainland Chinese to visit Hong Kong, I'ill stop Chinese from going to casinos in Macau and the rest of Asia, I'ill restrict Chinese women from marrying Hong Kong men. I'ill do all this for a few months, watch Hong Kong have pain, and then go back to 'normal'.

No need to get the blood pressure up over non-issues.

The percussionist needs to know when to tap his kettle drum and when to remain at the ready. The key is to be able to read the music and to follow it precisely. To have the feel of it all.

Changes the independence based Democratic Progressive Party would make after its candidate Tsai Ing-wen might as expected win election January 16 are in political relations.

Ms. Tsai has been leading in all the reliable and reputable polls all year, during recent months by an average of a 30 point lead. The governing party KMT switched its nominee for prez but it remains in the polling teens, in its very distant second place. (3 candidates running.)

The polling supports Ms. Tsai and the DPP's advocacy of the Cross Straits Agreement Supervisory Act as proposed by leaders of the Sunflower Revolution that drives the present DPP. It was the mass of sunflowers that in April seized control of the parliament building to stop a trade in services proposal that over time would have opened the Taiwan economy to significant CCP control. This Tsai-DPP newly proposed law would provide trade in services under a strict Taiwanese supervision. There's no break or breakoff occurring or in the works.

This is a strong example of the legislation a Pres. Tsai and the DPP would move through the national legislature.

Further, Ms Tsai advocates increasing high end tourism from the mainland. She is critical of the cheap package tour visitor from the mainland to Taiwan. And DPP wants to get more of the lucrative tourism income into the hands of industry workers, with not as much going exorbitantly to its owners.

Ms. Tsai and DPP want a new economic strategy and to address the low tax base of Taiwan after decades of domination by the KMT.

People can continue to get married. Hong Kong has however already passed laws against mainland women arriving in HKG to have a baby born there so it can be eligible for dual citizenship. Chinese born on the mainland are strictly prohibited dual citizenship.

One young native Chinese couple on the mainland I continue to have contact with had their first son born in HKG. They made him a dual citizen, of Canada too, where they themselves have their single citizenship from their university days there. By the time the second son had been born, the HKG law had been changed to prohibit such visitor births from the mainland. Now the second son can have only one citizenship (Canada), which is what the parents have. Because the CCP prohibits dual citizenship of its mainland population, the parents quit their natural Chinese citizenship to become citizens of Canada exclusively. The parents are native born Chinese who have taken Canadian citizenship, so they each need to do visa runs to HKG twice yearly while they remain on the mainland. They have factories on the mainland but will return to Canada after their next million.

CCP loses again.

It is also true the traveling to the mainland to take a Chinese bride back to Taiwan or to HKG is not much longer for this world anyway. It will soon need to be stopped, completely separately of who is in government in Taiwan. The mainland gender ratio of births is 116 boys for every 100 girls. Mainland men and their parents do not want males from off the mainland coming in to swoop up already scarce opposite sex spouses. This has nothing to do with who is in government in Taiwan or in respect of democracy in HKG.

One could go on. But I'd think that kettle drum you're lugging around gets pretty heavy after a while.

This arms sale to Taiwan has had no impact on the presidential election on the island. It was not an issue in Sunday's first nationally televised candidates' debate. In fact....

DPP Secretary-General Joseph Wu said that the party thanks and supports a U.S. announcement of new arms sales to Taiwan.

Wu said the United States is a major security partner and that the arms sales highlight the fact that the United States, in a substantive move, is delivering its promise under the Taiwan Relations Act and its Six Assurances to Taiwan.

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/presidential-election/2015/12/18/453800/Arms-sales.htm

If you support the CCP Dictators in Beijing incorporating Taiwan into the CCP one party state scheme, just say so. CCP says Taiwan is a province of the PRC. Taiwan says it is an independent country, the Republic of China. What do you say???

Everyone on Taiwan and in Beijing know what the DPP wants.

The only question is whether Taiwan voters Jan 16 will give the DPP a majority in the parliament. If DPP gets outnumbered in parliament, then it will be a check/balance on it. If DPP gets a legislative majority, then it will mean Beijing's duck is cooked.

"No need to get the blood pressure up over non-issues.".

No, my blood pressure is not high, I'm grinning over your good attempt at trying to make your point look good.

"Hong Kong has however already passed laws against mainland women arriving in HKG to have a baby born there so it can be eligible for dual citizenship. Chinese born on the mainland are strictly prohibited dual citizenship."

I was actually talking about Hong Kong men who get a mainlander girlfriend/wife and take her to Hong Kong, and the lady then gives birth to the baby in Hong Kong. If we remove the Hong Kong babies that are from mainlander women and Hong Kong men, well, Hong Kong's birth-rate will be even lower. If Hong Kong men are not allowed to marry women from the mainland, well, that doesn't mean to say that they can marry Hong Kong women and have kids. Lots of Hong Kong women simply feel that Hong Kong men are not good enough !

" It is also true the traveling to the mainland to take a Chinese bride back to Taiwan or to HKG is not much longer for this world anyway. It will soon need to be stopped, completely separately of who is in government in Taiwan. The mainland gender ratio of births is 116 boys for every 100 girls. Mainland men and their parents do not want males from off the mainland coming in to swoop up already scarce opposite sex spouses. This has nothing to do with who is in government in Taiwan or in respect of democracy in HKG."

Your comment is a brillant attempt at being funny. HKG and Taiwan's populations combined are neglible compared to China's vast population. There's more boys than girls in China, yes. Lets consider a number, one million. One million mainlander women turning up in Taiwan and HKG does have a big impact on society in Taiwan and HKG. But those one million women leaving mainland China, China has 1.3 billion people, their impact on leaving China is actually pretty small.

As for the parents of mainland women not wanting their daughter to go to Taiwan or HKG, I'm laughing again. These people, they love money, they love it just as much as Thais do. You might as well try and tell people that Thais don't like it when their daughters marry foreigners. China has twenty times as many people as Thailand, China hasn't got twenty times as many foreigners trying to marry their women. Saying that, yes, some mainlander men don't like seeing outsiders with mainlander women.

So, something that might be sensible, Taiwan might reduce the number of cheap package tourists from the mainland ? So, backpackers from HKG and the EU will be allowed to go to Taiwan ? Well, it's Taiwan's freedom of choice to choose what tourism strategy it wants. Will tourism revenue fall due to this ? A customer who pays little money is still a customer, he still adds to total revenue. It's Taiwan's choice, we'ill see how they react if total revenue does fall.

"If you support the CCP Dictators in Beijing incorporating Taiwan into the CCP one party state scheme, just say so. CCP says Taiwan is a province of the PRC. Taiwan says it is an independent country, the Republic of China. What do you say???"

Okay, we all know that Taiwan is a 'de facto' independent place, it's just that it hasn't officially declared it. Apart from antagonising Beijing, what is the main point of declaring independence ? Is it really so bad being a de facto independent place and raking in more and more money from mainland China ? How about this ? Taiwan carries on being a de facto independent place, it carries on having freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of this and that, and it's economy becomes more and more linked to China because this rakes in more and more money ?

I mean, there's Japan, what about them ? They export a tiny bit more to America than they do to China. But their imports, they import far more from China than they import from America. Is that a negative thing ? Japan loves the cheap Chinese goods as much as America and the EU does. Yes, mainland Chinese tourists are beginning to flood Tokyo. Yes, some Japanese people don't like this, I think they are a minority, they're entitled to their views, but I think they are being ridiculous.

About the USA. I'ill say something obvious, many people on ThaiVisa have constantly said this. American foreign policy is not actually mainly about spreading freedom and democracy. It's more to do about exploiting other countries, finding an excuse to attack or invade somebody, to get some type of benefit. Back in 1950s, doing a coup to remove the Iranian government (democratically elected, sort of), installing the puppet government of the Shah, doing it to control Iran's oil, and causing Iranians to dislike America, even to this day. And today, Saudi Arabia. Certainly not a democracy, with little freedom of speech and other freedoms. Some people reckon that the Saudi government is a puppet government of Washington's. The US government doesn't care about the people of Saudi Arabia. The important thing, as far as Washington is concerned, Saudi Arabia carries on exporting their oil, and carries on buying American military hardware.

Oh, and people are suspicious of America's motives in the Far East ??

[Publicus]

As CCP hollers and flaps its arms over the US arms sales to Taiwan which as recently announced is in accordance with US law enacted in 1971, the Dictators in Beijing ignore their menacing provocations against Taiwan.

Provocations include PLA mainland exercises attacking a building almost identical to the Presidential Bulding in Taipei and creating a computer game depicting a PLA invasion of Taiwan.

Between late May and early June, PLA conducted at least four exercises IHS Jane’s said simulated an invasion of Taiwan. Janes's said that during the drills, an image released by state media showed a PLA officer giving a briefing behind a “digitally barely concealed map of Taiwan.”

Surprise suprise the PLA war maneuvers coincided with Tsai Ing-wen, the presidential candidate of the Democratic Progressive Party, visiting the United States between May 29 and June 3. Ms Tsai has been leading substantially in the polling all year.

In other words, as Janes' noted, the drills were meant as a warning, with Tsai and the DPP's presidential campaign as their target.

CCTV which is the 44 channel CCP owned and operated state television network, broadcast the video of the military assault drill, which had been held in Inner Mongolia.

Focus Taiwan news network on the island said, after speaking with defense ministry spokesman, Lou Shou-he, "The drills hit home for Taiwanese.”

The fierce and provocative video thus recognised the upcoming January 16 elections and Ms. Tsai’s very likely victory. Focus Taiwan stated that “some suggest that the simulated attack is China’s way of reminding Taiwan that it will make good on its promise of invading if Taiwan declares independence.”

This was followed by statements from Zhang Zhijun, head of CCP Taiwan Affairs Office that a new administration on Taiwan could “enjoy the peace dividend,” or it could return to its “evil ways” of independence.

The bottom line here is that people who know right from wrong, good from evil are adjudged sane when they commit atrocities. It are the people who don't know good from evil that are adjudged insane -- the ones in Beijing.

http://qz.com/461110/video-a-chinese-military-drill-simulates-an-attack-on-taiwans-presidential-office/

Edited December 24, 2015 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

It's Christmas ...give us a break from rhetorics .....

Taiwan would survive Christmas and the new year parties ...no storming of presidential palaces there as you need to pay overtime on a public holiday and even the Chinese are too pragmatic for that

Peace to the world

Edited December 25, 2015 by LawrenceChee

[tonbridgebrit]

As CCP hollers and flaps its arms over the US arms sales to Taiwan which as recently announced is in accordance with US law enacted in 1971, the Dictators in Beijing ignore their menacing provocations against Taiwan.

Provocations include PLA mainland exercises attacking a building almost identical to the Presidential Bulding in Taipei and creating a computer game depicting a PLA invasion of Taiwan.

Between late May and early June, PLA conducted at least four exercises IHS Jane’s said simulated an invasion of Taiwan. Janes's said that during the drills, an image released by state media showed a PLA officer giving a briefing behind a “digitally barely concealed map of Taiwan.”

Surprise suprise the PLA war maneuvers coincided with Tsai Ing-wen, the presidential candidate of the Democratic Progressive Party, visiting the United States between May 29 and June 3. Ms Tsai has been leading substantially in the polling all year.

In other words, as Janes' noted, the drills were meant as a warning, with Tsai and the DPP's presidential campaign as their target.

CCTV which is the 44 channel CCP owned and operated state television network, broadcast the video of the military assault drill, which had been held in Inner Mongolia.

Focus Taiwan news network on the island said, after speaking with defense ministry spokesman, Lou Shou-he, "The drills hit home for Taiwanese.”

The fierce and provocative video thus recognised the upcoming January 16 elections and Ms. Tsai’s very likely victory. Focus Taiwan stated that “some suggest that the simulated attack is China’s way of reminding Taiwan that it will make good on its promise of invading if Taiwan declares independence.”

This was followed by statements from Zhang Zhijun, head of CCP Taiwan Affairs Office that a new administration on Taiwan could “enjoy the peace dividend,” or it could return to its “evil ways” of independence.

The bottom line here is that people who know right from wrong, good from evil are adjudged sane when they commit atrocities. It are the people who don't know good from evil that are adjudged insane -- the ones in Beijing.

http://qz.com/461110/video-a-chinese-military-drill-simulates-an-attack-on-taiwans-presidential-office/

Publicus, yes, Beijing is carryng out military exercises, these exercises look like preparation for an invasion of Taiwan. Publicus, if NATO soldiers carried out a military exercise, and they attacked 'dummy vehicles' that looked the same as Russian military vehicles, well, would that be surprising ? The main point of NATO's existence is to attack Russia, or defend against an attack from Russia.

Yes, the military exercises ordered by Beijing are being done to remind Taiwan of the background to this election, yes, Taiwan's future might involve an invasion from mainland China. Okay, so China might invade Taiwan if Taiwan declares independance. What is the point of Taiwan declaring independance ?

In London, the Taiwan government building is called "Taipei Representative Office", it's called that in a whole load of other European countries. It is NOT called "Embassy of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". Other buildings are called "Taipei Economic and Cultural Office".

Now, declaration of independance, what difference does it actually make to Taiwan ? Oh, they can now call those buildings "Embassy" ???

I'm trying to say that Taiwan stands to gain very little by declaring independance. They are already a de facto independant state. Just to let other people know (yes, Publicus, you already know this), Taiwan has been carrying out a bizzare and laughable campaign to get official diplomatic recognition or whatever people want to call it. Basically, almost every nation on earth officially recognises mainland China as the "one China", the Peoples' Republic of China. The PRC demands that nations don't allow Taiwan to have the words "Embassy of Republic of China (Taiwan)" outside whatever Taiwan government building in countries around the world.

Taiwan has targeted a load of very small nations, and given them aid and loans in return for accepting "Taiwan, Republic of China", those small nations do actually have "Embassy of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" written outside of the Taiwanese government building in their country. Yes, in Kirabti, the Taiwan government building does have the word "Embassy" on the sign outside. Other nations include Nauru, Tuvalu, Solomon Islands, etc.

So, apart from annoying Beijing, Taiwan gains little by declaring independance. And what if Tawan does declare independance, and China invades, is the USA going to declare war on China ? Anybody would say that Washington is far too busy fighting against the 'Arabs' on that War on Terror. And once Russia joins in, with China, is Beijing going to protest against Moscow declaring war on America ? Basically, Washington has already told Taiwan, "look, we are not going to start Wold War Three just because you want to do this declaration of independance".

And something basic. Taiwa's exports. China takes in 27% of Taiwan's exports. The USA and Japan combined takes up 17%. Taiwan's imports ? Japan makes up 17%, China 16%, and USA 9%. How about this, Beijing carries out an economic war on Taiwan, if Taiwan is naughty ?? As in, Beijing will restrict Taiwan's goods entering into China ? And Beijing will reduce China's exports to Taiwan ?

If it's okay for America to have sanctions against Cuba, surely, it's okay for Beijing to have partial sanctions against Taiwan.

Actually, Ms Tsai's possible goal might be achieved with help from Beijing. See, if Taiwan wants to reduce it's economic dependance and links with mainland China, okay, go and annoy Beijing. Beijing will reduce trade with Taiwan, reduce the number of tourists and tourist revenue, oh, so only 10% of Taiwan's exports will go to mainland China, not 27%. And not allow the 27% to keep getting bigger.

Is China going to be that bothered ? What percentage of China's trade is with Taiwan ?

[spidermike007]

....or is it exactly as China planned it....

Does the post suggest the CCP is in charge, in command, directing and controlling events and the major principals? That the CCP klutzes are supposed to be so smart and so clever?

Fact is CCP are bamboozled by their completely unexpected US initiatives to defend the international status of the SCS. CCP are flumoxed by the widespread support Asean governments have of the US action; their sense of relief. After all, to Beijing the United States is a declining power and a failing economy.

CCP are chessmasters the same as Putin is a chessmaster, i.e., never played chess against anyone they couldn't put in jail. Chinese chess includes a river on the board. Let's call it the Rubicon because Beijing will never cross it to Taiwan.

CCP are not Caesar. They don't have the balls or the brains.

And they are absolutely, positively thrilled you feel that way. It is far easier to pull off domination when people underestimate you. Just look at what Tiny George (Bush) II got away with? They have both the balls and the brains. They have the brains in spades. China is one of the world's greatest depositories of superior intellectual DNA in my opinion. Underestimate the CCP at your own peril. They are up to no good, and they will stop at nothing to achieve their objectives.

[Publicus]

The main point of NATO's existence is to attack Russia, or defend against an attack from Russia.

And the main point of the PLA is to defend the mainland from attack. Tell us Taiwan is a military menace to the mainland CCP China. That is where your attempt to analogise Nato vis-a-vis Russia to the CCP vis-a-vis Taiwan fails. Laughably.

The only similarity is that Russia and the CCP are the bad guys, and that conversely, Nato and Taiwan are the good guyz.

And what if Tawan does declare independance, and China invades, is the USA going to declare war on China ?

This further installment of ongoing US arms sales to Taiwan is a statement, not a war winning doctrine or strategy. PLA won't have the capability to assault the island until sometime after 2020. The point of the Taiwan-US Agreement is deterrence.

Highly visible US arms sales merely complement Taiwan's excellent cyberwarfare capability and A2/AD air and sea defense systems. The point is to make it too costly to the CCP-PLA to try something it hasn't done in more than a hundred years of modern warfare, i.e., a large scale sustainable amphibious assault. Taiwan is a fortified island of rocks, caves, mountains that dominate the Strait.

(Think Gen MacArthur at Inchon during the Korean Conflict. Only a military supreme master could have pulled that off, which MacArthur did do with his background as supreme commander of the Pacific during WW 2. who signed the surrender document of Japan. Also keep in mind PLA commanders are CCP party political hacks who 'purchased' their way up the ranks.)

I'm trying to say that Taiwan stands to gain very little by declaring independance. They are already a de facto independant state.

To get out from under the heel of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. PLA has 800+ missiles aimed at Taiwan. CCP Dictators assert Taiwan is a part of the CCP and its People's Republic of China. Taiwan as a sovereign state would require a different and respectful treatment by the CCP in Beijing.

CCP and its fanboyz need to recognise the ongoing public opinion polls of the past 25 years and that in June found 3.2% of people on Taiwan consider themselves CCP Chinese, i.e., Chinese. They are either Taiwanese or a mix of Taiwanese and Chinese. They are not Chinese and will have no part of the CCP China unless there is democracy and freedom.

Don't know yet which name infuriates the CCP more --and thus its fanboyz-- the present and historic Republic of China (Taiwan) or simply the more recently proposed Republic of Taiwan.

[Publicus]

@ tonbridgebrit again....You posted::

How about this, Beijing carries out an economic war on Taiwan, if Taiwan is naughty ?? As in, Beijing will restrict Taiwan's goods entering into China ? And Beijing will reduce China's exports to Taiwan ?

It sounds like someone's been talking to Putin or to the rest of his fanboyz at the local stomping grounds. CCP has said nothing at all about any of this. Zero about decreasing trade activity, commerce, financial exchanges, tourism to Taiwan which is popular among mainlanders, a currency war.....nothing. Zilch.

This cutoff blah blah blah does indeed sound like Putin's fanboyz during the Ukraine conflict when the fanboyz were threatening that Putin was moments away from shutting off the energy flow of natural gas to Europe until Brussels surrendered Ukraine to Russia the mother. Putin during all the while of the boys' bloated keyboard blustering had not ever said anything of it. Nothing. No threats; no ultimatums; no words, no actions. Nuthin.

The main aspect of the CCP-Taiwan interaction continues to be neglected completely by the CCP overzealous fanboyz. The CCP economy is tanking. Growth for 2015 is in reality shrinkage. CCP have backed off their absurd claims of continuing 7% growth. But to only 6.8% growth for this year. These guyz are a laff a minute.

The most optimistic global estimates are that 4% is the hard ceiling max but that "growth" this year will be below that threshold for sure. Lombard Research had said already that growth went negative during Q1. China Beige Book said last week the economy had already crashed during the present Q4. Daiwa three months ago projected minus 20% off GDP by year 2020.

CCP are looking at the data and they are feeling the heat. Consequently CCP are not presently threatening anything economic or financial against a DPP January 16 victory and new government in Taiwan from president to parliament. Not only do the Boyz know better, they can't afford to do otherwise. So they will do the Chinese thing, i.e., they will sit and watch for at least the first six months. Back channels will of course be busy.

Accordingly, CCP fanboyz might want to consider letting some of the hot air out of their overblown rhetoric. Speculation happens when facts are absent. Fanboyz tend strongly toward speculating.

[LawrenceChee]

As CCP hollers and flaps its arms over the US arms sales to Taiwan which as recently announced is in accordance with US law enacted in 1971, the Dictators in Beijing ignore their menacing provocations against Taiwan.

Provocations include PLA mainland exercises attacking a building almost identical to the Presidential Bulding in Taipei and creating a computer game depicting a PLA invasion of Taiwan.

Between late May and early June, PLA conducted at least four exercises IHS Jane’s said simulated an invasion of Taiwan. Janes's said that during the drills, an image released by state media showed a PLA officer giving a briefing behind a “digitally barely concealed map of Taiwan.”

Surprise suprise the PLA war maneuvers coincided with Tsai Ing-wen, the presidential candidate of the Democratic Progressive Party, visiting the United States between May 29 and June 3. Ms Tsai has been leading substantially in the polling all year.

In other words, as Janes' noted, the drills were meant as a warning, with Tsai and the DPP's presidential campaign as their target.

CCTV which is the 44 channel CCP owned and operated state television network, broadcast the video of the military assault drill, which had been held in Inner Mongolia.

Focus Taiwan news network on the island said, after speaking with defense ministry spokesman, Lou Shou-he, "The drills hit home for Taiwanese.”

The fierce and provocative video thus recognised the upcoming January 16 elections and Ms. Tsai’s very likely victory. Focus Taiwan stated that “some suggest that the simulated attack is China’s way of reminding Taiwan that it will make good on its promise of invading if Taiwan declares independence.”

This was followed by statements from Zhang Zhijun, head of CCP Taiwan Affairs Office that a new administration on Taiwan could “enjoy the peace dividend,” or it could return to its “evil ways” of independence.

The bottom line here is that people who know right from wrong, good from evil are adjudged sane when they commit atrocities. It are the people who don't know good from evil that are adjudged insane -- the ones in Beijing.

http://qz.com/461110/video-a-chinese-military-drill-simulates-an-attack-on-taiwans-presidential-office/

Publicus, yes, Beijing is carryng out military exercises, these exercises look like preparation for an invasion of Taiwan. Publicus, if NATO soldiers carried out a military exercise, and they attacked 'dummy vehicles' that looked the same as Russian military vehicles, well, would that be surprising ? The main point of NATO's existence is to attack Russia, or defend against an attack from Russia.

Yes, the military exercises ordered by Beijing are being done to remind Taiwan of the background to this election, yes, Taiwan's future might involve an invasion from mainland China. Okay, so China might invade Taiwan if Taiwan declares independance. What is the point of Taiwan declaring independance ?

In London, the Taiwan government building is called "Taipei Representative Office", it's called that in a whole load of other European countries. It is NOT called "Embassy of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". Other buildings are called "Taipei Economic and Cultural Office".

Now, declaration of independance, what difference does it actually make to Taiwan ? Oh, they can now call those buildings "Embassy" ???

I'm trying to say that Taiwan stands to gain very little by declaring independance. They are already a de facto independant state. Just to let other people know (yes, Publicus, you already know this), Taiwan has been carrying out a bizzare and laughable campaign to get official diplomatic recognition or whatever people want to call it. Basically, almost every nation on earth officially recognises mainland China as the "one China", the Peoples' Republic of China. The PRC demands that nations don't allow Taiwan to have the words "Embassy of Republic of China (Taiwan)" outside whatever Taiwan government building in countries around the world.

Taiwan has targeted a load of very small nations, and given them aid and loans in return for accepting "Taiwan, Republic of China", those small nations do actually have "Embassy of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" written outside of the Taiwanese government building in their country. Yes, in Kirabti, the Taiwan government building does have the word "Embassy" on the sign outside. Other nations include Nauru, Tuvalu, Solomon Islands, etc.

So, apart from annoying Beijing, Taiwan gains little by declaring independance. And what if Tawan does declare independance, and China invades, is the USA going to declare war on China ? Anybody would say that Washington is far too busy fighting against the 'Arabs' on that War on Terror. And once Russia joins in, with China, is Beijing going to protest against Moscow declaring war on America ? Basically, Washington has already told Taiwan, "look, we are not going to start Wold War Three just because you want to do this declaration of independance".

And something basic. Taiwa's exports. China takes in 27% of Taiwan's exports. The USA and Japan combined takes up 17%. Taiwan's imports ? Japan makes up 17%, China 16%, and USA 9%. How about this, Beijing carries out an economic war on Taiwan, if Taiwan is naughty ?? As in, Beijing will restrict Taiwan's goods entering into China ? And Beijing will reduce China's exports to Taiwan ?

If it's okay for America to have sanctions against Cuba, surely, it's okay for Beijing to have partial sanctions against Taiwan.

Actually, Ms Tsai's possible goal might be achieved with help from Beijing. See, if Taiwan wants to reduce it's economic dependance and links with mainland China, okay, go and annoy Beijing. Beijing will reduce trade with Taiwan, reduce the number of tourists and tourist revenue, oh, so only 10% of Taiwan's exports will go to mainland China, not 27%. And not allow the 27% to keep getting bigger.

Is China going to be that bothered ? What percentage of China's trade is with Taiwan ?

Good to have sensible posts like this ....does enrich the forum a lot more compared to rhetorics...

[Publicus]

@ tonbridgebrit again

The main point of NATO's existence is to attack Russia, or defend against an attack from Russia.

Nato does not exist to attack Russia.

Nato is a defense treaty organisation among countries of Europe and the US and Canada, from 1949, that an attack on one is an attack on all. There are now 28 member countries of Nato to include several of the former republics of the defunct USSR.

Nato isn't going to be attacking anyone as an initiating offensive force.

CCP long ago declared PLA will invade Taiwan if the island country declares sovereignty. It is already independent. CCP is clear it shall begin World War III over the island of Taiwan. CCP are whack jobs and so are their fanboyz.

[tonbridgebrit]

The main point of NATO's existence is to attack Russia, or defend against an attack from Russia.

And the main point of the PLA is to defend the mainland from attack. Tell us Taiwan is a military menace to the mainland CCP China. That is where your attempt to analogise Nato vis-a-vis Russia to the CCP vis-a-vis Taiwan fails. Laughably.

The only similarity is that Russia and the CCP are the bad guys, and that conversely, Nato and Taiwan are the good guyz.

And what if Tawan does declare independance, and China invades, is the USA going to declare war on China ?

This further installment of ongoing US arms sales to Taiwan is a statement, not a war winning doctrine or strategy. PLA won't have the capability to assault the island until sometime after 2020. The point of the Taiwan-US Agreement is deterrence.

Highly visible US arms sales merely complement Taiwan's excellent cyberwarfare capability and A2/AD air and sea defense systems. The point is to make it too costly to the CCP-PLA to try something it hasn't done in more than a hundred years of modern warfare, i.e., a large scale sustainable amphibious assault. Taiwan is a fortified island of rocks, caves, mountains that dominate the Strait.

(Think Gen MacArthur at Inchon during the Korean Conflict. Only a military supreme master could have pulled that off, which MacArthur did do with his background as supreme commander of the Pacific during WW 2. who signed the surrender document of Japan. Also keep in mind PLA commanders are CCP party political hacks who 'purchased' their way up the ranks.)

I'm trying to say that Taiwan stands to gain very little by declaring independance. They are already a de facto independant state.

To get out from under the heel of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. PLA has 800+ missiles aimed at Taiwan. CCP Dictators assert Taiwan is a part of the CCP and its People's Republic of China. Taiwan as a sovereign state would require a different and respectful treatment by the CCP in Beijing.

CCP and its fanboyz need to recognise the ongoing public opinion polls of the past 25 years and that in June found 3.2% of people on Taiwan consider themselves CCP Chinese, i.e., Chinese. They are either Taiwanese or a mix of Taiwanese and Chinese. They are not Chinese and will have no part of the CCP China unless there is democracy and freedom.

Don't know yet which name infuriates the CCP more --and thus its fanboyz-- the present and historic Republic of China (Taiwan) or simply the more recently proposed Republic of Taiwan.

Publicus, I don't use the term "Taiwan DPP fanboyz", is it okay if you don't use the term "CCP fanboyz" ??

Can you please stop making yourself look ridiculous !! Did anybody say that China regards Taiwan as a military threat ? Did anybody say that Taiwan is an economic threat to mainland-China ? Off-course not, Taiwan is not, never will be, Taiwan are far too small a place.

Publicus, can you please confirm that China and Russia being the bad guys, and America being the good guys, is something that YOU don't accept ? Do we really need to go through stuff like: the USA coup in Iran back in 1950 that REMOVED an almost democratic government (and installed the puppet Shah), USA backing Saudi Arabia today, that Vetnam War thing back in the 1960s and 70s, the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the present day War on Terror (the War on Terror is actually part of a modern-day Crusade to kill Muslims, senior Republicans AND Democrats have miss-understood the Bible).

I myself accept that China, Russa and the USA are almost the same when it comes to who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys.

By the way, is China involved in any wars right now ? Are their military involved in killing Muslims in the Middle East ?

You go and say "To get out from under the heel of the CCP Dictators in Beijing". Publicus, everybody (including you) already knows that Taiwan is a de facto independant place, they're NOT under Beijing's heel. Taiwan's control over itself is just as much as Japan's control over itself. Beijing's ability to control freedom of speech in Taiwan is just as non-existent as Beijing's ability to control freedom of speech and freedom of religion in Japan.

"Taiwan as a sovereign state would require a different and respectful treatment by the CCP in Beijing." What, you think that by declaring independance, Taiwan will then no longer have 800+ missiles aimed at them ?

I'm still trying to get you to say something sensible about what Taiwan gains from declaring independance, apart from annoying Beijing. No, I'm not infuriated by what Taiwan is saying. I'm smirking over Taiwan's laughable campaign over the last few decades, to get small nations to accept "Republic of China (Taiwan)" written on the sign outside their government buildings. Doing it by handing out aid and loans !

As a reminder from a previous post:

[ In London, the Taiwan government building is called "Taipei Representative Office", it's called that in a whole load of other European countries. It is NOT called "Embassy of the Republic of China (Taiwan)". Other buildings are called "Taipei Economic and Cultural Office".

Now, declaration of independance, what difference does it actually make to Taiwan ? Oh, they can now call those buildings "Embassy" ???

I'm trying to say that Taiwan stands to gain very little by declaring independance. They are already a de facto independant state. Just to let other people know (yes, Publicus, you already know this), Taiwan has been carrying out a bizzare and laughable campaign to get official diplomatic recognition or whatever people want to call it. Basically, almost every nation on earth officially recognises mainland China as the "one China", the Peoples' Republic of China. The PRC demands that nations don't allow Taiwan to have the words "Embassy of Republic of China (Taiwan)" outside whatever Taiwan government building in countries around the world.

Taiwan has targeted a load of very small nations, and given them aid and loans in return for accepting "Taiwan, Republic of China", those small nations do actually have "Embassy of the Republic of China (Taiwan)" written outside of the Taiwanese government building in their country. Yes, in Kirabti, the Taiwan government building does have the word "Embassy" on the sign outside. Other nations include Nauru, Tuvalu, Solomon Islands, etc. ]

Publicus, can you please confirm that a campaign over decades, using aid and loans, to get small nations like Tuvalu, Nauru,etc, to accept Taiwan, this is laughable and crazy ?

[HenryB]

The US is the Hub of Arm Sales

[LawrenceChee]

@ tonbridgebrit again

The main point of NATO's existence is to attack Russia, or defend against an attack from Russia.

Nato does not exist to attack Russia.

Nato is a defense treaty organisation among countries of Europe and the US and Canada, from 1949, that an attack on one is an attack on all. There are now 28 member countries of Nato to include several of the former republics of the defunct USSR.

Nato isn't going to be attacking anyone as an initiating offensive force.

CCP long ago declared PLA will invade Taiwan if the island country declares sovereignty. It is already independent. CCP is clear it shall begin World War III over the island of Taiwan. CCP are whack jobs and so are their fanboyz.

We just need the USA to stop antagonising talks and legitimate efforts to tone down this rhetoric

China and Taiwan have been making the right strides in this area , talking between sides , increasing trade and reducing the number of missiles pointing at each other and making more government representation at each side and encouraging tourism and understanding .

USA comes in and decided they need to make some cash and drive up the tension in the area selling more arms to Taiwan

I see the intention is not noble , there is no threats of war or any danger to Taiwan and yet the USA choose at this time to approve the arm sales to make a point

The foreign policies are laughable and rather defeating to the point

What's happening in Cuba / USA mirrors China / Taiwan now.

Leave it alone , give it time and for once learn how to allow more talking instead of these cowboy theories or shock and awe ....we all understand USA has a trigger happy personality when it comes to warfare but have very little Long term plans on what happen after the first few media days of bombing on what to do next .

[tonbridgebrit]

@ tonbridgebrit again....You posted::

How about this, Beijing carries out an economic war on Taiwan, if Taiwan is naughty ?? As in, Beijing will restrict Taiwan's goods entering into China ? And Beijing will reduce China's exports to Taiwan ?

It sounds like someone's been talking to Putin or to the rest of his fanboyz at the local stomping grounds. CCP has said nothing at all about any of this. Zero about decreasing trade activity, commerce, financial exchanges, tourism to Taiwan which is popular among mainlanders, a currency war.....nothing. Zilch.

This cutoff blah blah blah does indeed sound like Putin's fanboyz during the Ukraine conflict when the fanboyz were threatening that Putin was moments away from shutting off the energy flow of natural gas to Europe until Brussels surrendered Ukraine to Russia the mother. Putin during all the while of the boys' bloated keyboard blustering had not ever said anything of it. Nothing. No threats; no ultimatums; no words, no actions. Nuthin.

The main aspect of the CCP-Taiwan interaction continues to be neglected completely by the CCP overzealous fanboyz. The CCP economy is tanking. Growth for 2015 is in reality shrinkage. CCP have backed off their absurd claims of continuing 7% growth. But to only 6.8% growth for this year. These guyz are a laff a minute.

The most optimistic global estimates are that 4% is the hard ceiling max but that "growth" this year will be below that threshold for sure. Lombard Research had said already that growth went negative during Q1. China Beige Book said last week the economy had already crashed during the present Q4. Daiwa three months ago projected minus 20% off GDP by year 2020.

CCP are looking at the data and they are feeling the heat. Consequently CCP are not presently threatening anything economic or financial against a DPP January 16 victory and new government in Taiwan from president to parliament. Not only do the Boyz know better, they can't afford to do otherwise. So they will do the Chinese thing, i.e., they will sit and watch for at least the first six months. Back channels will of course be busy.

Accordingly, CCP fanboyz might want to consider letting some of the hot air out of their overblown rhetoric. Speculation happens when facts are absent. Fanboyz tend strongly toward speculating.

Publicus, you're right, China has said nothing about an economic war against Taiwan. I'm trying to say that if Taiwan declares indepedance, then their is the danger of China invading Taiwan, and that's when we might see America fighting China. Yes, America fighting China, THAT is what we are concerned about. Look, let's get real, if their is a war between China and Taiwan, most people in Europe and America won't really care. It will be regarded as a war between one load of Chinese against another load of Chinese. Most people would feel "Who cares ?" Bit like most people in America and Europe don't care about a war between one load of Arabs and another load of Arabs. Just let them fight, our own boys shouldn't be dying from other peoples' wars. That's how most people feel.

My suggestion of economic war by China against Taiwan was about "instead of an actual military invasion, how about an econmic war instead". Surely, an economic war is far better than an invasion, as far as most people are concerned. You haven't commented on the following issue. Ms Tsai might want to see less economic links with mainland-China. Yes, Ms Tsai might see her goal achieved.

I remind you of the following:

[China takes in 27% of Taiwan's exports. The USA and Japan combined takes up 17%. Taiwan's imports ? Japan makes up 17%, China 16%, and USA 9%. How about this, Beijing carries out an economic war on Taiwan, if Taiwan is naughty ?? As in, Beijing will restrict Taiwan's goods entering into China ? And Beijing will reduce China's exports to Taiwan ?

If it's okay for America to have sanctions against Cuba, surely, it's okay for Beijing to have partial sanctions against Taiwan.

Actually, Ms Tsai's possible goal might be achieved with help from Beijing. See, if Taiwan wants to reduce it's economic dependance and links with mainland China, okay, go and annoy Beijing. Beijing will reduce trade with Taiwan, reduce the number of tourists and tourist revenue, oh, so only 10% of Taiwan's exports will go to mainland China, not 27%. And not allow the 27% to keep getting bigger. ]

I'm not threatening or making this rhetoric. I'm trying to say that Ms Tsai's possible goals can be met. It's YOU, Publicus, who is trying to say that other people are threatening Taiwan. You're claiming these are empty threats, but these scenarios might actally be what Ms Tsai actually wants to see.

Is China's GDP ten times that of Taiwan's ? Is China a bigger economic power than Russia ?

Will China feel anything if China and Taiwan reduce economc links ? Will America be willing to reduce that vast mountain of cheap Chinese goods that it imports ?

[Scott]

Please stay on the topic.

[tonbridgebrit]

By the way, as for myself, do I wish to see China and Taiwan reducing their ecomonic links ? No, I don't. I would much rather see increased links. How about 37% of Taiwan's exports go to China ? And Taiwan eventually imports more from China than it does from Japan and America combined. Yes, a good step, a very good step !