Buying Land

[seanocasey]

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

[dsfbrit]

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I dont think the new Thai Constitution is the major concern here.

I have a Thai wife and bought land here through the company route. I am therefore what is known by the flamers here as an IDIOT.

If I were fortunate enough to be in your position ie: deciding my options I would do the following ( this is what I have learned after I bought the land 3 years ago)

- do not invest more money into Thailand than you can afford to lose.

- read up on this forum about land issues especially USUFRUCT and LEASE. Read all you can and understand ALL land issues before you part with any cash. It may take several weeks of reading, but it would be worth it - hey if only I could have done this before I invested in land out here.

- remember, as you point out, you can not own land here as a Foreigner - but many Farang have opted for buying the land and putting it in their wifes name and leasing via the 30 year lease route. It is generally accepted that despite what some people may tell you - you can only get leases for up to 30 years.

I guess you will have to do the land thing in the end for you GF (wife), lets face it its better having the family working the land and having self respect - than you just sending money for many years! - just be very very careful.

I will leave Sunbelt and Dragonman to go into the detailed legal aspects of this, but I would feel very happy if I could prevent even one more unsuspecting Farang falling into a similar trap as me.

good luck

[Dragonman]

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I don't think I can offer you much from a legal perspective. A lease or usufruct would I suspect not be of much practical use for someone who has split up from their girlfriend/wife and then has the prospects of taking possession and farming, or living on, land in close proximity to all her relatives.

It is quite a large area and presumably not exactly peanuts to acquire.

You must really decide if you are happy with this as a gift, as I am sure this is what it will be considered to be. Also do not consider (from personal experience) that this will be the end of support for the family. There is always a new "venture" that can make them a fortune.

As dsfbrit stated, the Constitution will have little relevance. A Land Code Amendment will be required.

[Sunbelt Asia]

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I don't think I can offer you much from a legal perspective. A lease or usufruct would I suspect not be of much practical use for someone who has split up from their girlfriend/wife and then has the prospects of taking possession and farming, or living on, land in close proximity to all her relatives.

It is quite a large area and presumably not exactly peanuts to acquire.

You must really decide if you are happy with this as a gift, as I am sure this is what it will be considered to be. Also do not consider (from personal experience) that this will be the end of support for the family. There is always a new "venture" that can make them a fortune.

As dsfbrit stated, the Constitution will have little relevance. A Land Code Amendment will be required.

Would concur. Was thinking exactly the same as Dragonman when saw his post. Make it a gift to your future wife and know you will have other gifts as well.... tractor, labor, etc.

What good does a lease or usufruct do on farmers land? It would be like hel_l on earth if you need to enforce this. Are you going to farm it? You can't as a foreigner. If you want to transfer the lease or usufruct... to who? Ever been to an auction, with everybody having their hand in their pocket?

If you do this, just consider the money is gone, it’s not yours anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[dsfbrit]

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I don't think I can offer you much from a legal perspective. A lease or usufruct would I suspect not be of much practical use for someone who has split up from their girlfriend/wife and then has the prospects of taking possession and farming, or living on, land in close proximity to all her relatives.

It is quite a large area and presumably not exactly peanuts to acquire.

You must really decide if you are happy with this as a gift, as I am sure this is what it will be considered to be. Also do not consider (from personal experience) that this will be the end of support for the family. There is always a new "venture" that can make them a fortune.

As dsfbrit stated, the Constitution will have little relevance. A Land Code Amendment will be required.

Would concur. Was thinking exactly the same as Dragonman when saw his post. Make it a gift to your future wife and know you will have other gifts as well.... tractor, labor, etc.

What good does a lease or usufruct do on farmers land? It would be like hel_l on earth if you need to enforce this. Are you going to farm it? You can't as a foreigner. If you want to transfer the lease or usufruct... to who? Ever been to an auction, with everybody having their hand in their pocket?

If you do this, just consider the money is gone, it’s not yours anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I would never consider taking an opposite position to Sunbelt nor Dragonman - I am much too humble.

I suspect that anyone who reads SeanOCasey's post will be, like I was at first, quite horrified at what he is suggesting, for many reasons.

I would say though, that although your legal comment on leases is, I am sure spot on, from a practical human point of view, if SeanOcasey feels obliged to do this land thing - then something (a lease?), anything is better than nothing. My wife keeps having great ideas similar to this - she is from Issan too - and I tend to say no - then buy the odd cow here and there to appease the family -

a lot cheaper than several Rai of land!!

As for leases being enforced - I know Dragonman states in another reply that he know of cases farang have won - but how many cases have been tested recently in the courts for these leases that are being set up for small plots of land? - its one of the reasons I am in a wait and see position on the company / land thing. I have no real confidence in the lease thing at all.

Am I wrong?

How do we Farang get ourselves in these situations !

Sunbelt, Dragonman - I am not trying to be a smart-arse - just trying to make sense of this legal jungle!

Edited October 13, 2006 by dsfbrit

[GuestHouse]

It seems to me that what is proposed is you buy land and your g/fs family then have the use of the land.

As noted above, its a gift.

Also, as noted above, it will not be the only gift you will be making - I doubt very much that this is ever going to happen

I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family.

My view would be unless you can afford to make this gift, and at least have enough money left to set yourself up later somewhere else in Thailand, then don't make the gift.

If your lifew with your g/f is conditional upon making the gift (and it seems there is an expectation). Then all I can say is "Up to you".

Out of curiosity - How much is this land costing?- and who are you buying it from?

Many a farang buys land from one family member at an inflated price only to give it to another family member.

Edited October 13, 2006 by GuestHouse

[Sunbelt Asia]

It’s not a question of winning, if you had a lease or usufruct. You will win but what do you win? A piece of Issan land in the middle of nowhere.

You have the protection of the 30 year lease or usufruct but the court can't demand someone to lease it from you. If you do lease it to another farmer, will you be paid? You can't sell it; it’s not your land. You can't farm it as you are a foreigner. Are you going to live there? Odds are nothing could be more like a very bad nightmare(next to ex-relatives)

At the end of the day, you have nothing. Just consider it a gift.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[GuestHouse]

I'd go a bit futher on what Sunbelt says and say the question 'Would you want to live there' applies to any land bought in close proximity to a g/f's, b/f's wife's, husband's family.

If things go tits up and you're left with a house right next door to a family that feel you have cheated one of their members (hence them) out of an entitlement - then your life there is likely not to be very comfortable.

It doesn't matter what steps you take to secure your rights, land bought near your inlaws is a gift - you aint going to enjoy it if they can't.

[seanocasey]

IV taken all your comments on board and the solution I have come up with is let her work for half of the price it will take her a year working for me and I will put up the other half.

She will be working for me in my Business. The total amount is Baht 1.89mil.

I think this would be a very amicable arrangement.

She was concerned that a lot of Farangs were buying land in Issan and driving the price of land up.

This I think is not an issue at present with the current state of affairs in Thailand.

So waiting till the money is in the bank OR PLAYING THE WAITING GAME.

Would be I think the best option

There is no immediate hurry at present.

This tread bears merit in advising others the true value of ones hard earned cash.

As others have so wisely said do not bring in more that you can afford to lose.

[Dragonman]

Buying land legalities.

Am in the process of buying and haven’t paid for this land as yet. I was wondering that if I purchase land in my GF name and we break up well land is gone.

Should one wait till the new Thai constitution is completed next year or do I buy it on a lease back.

Land will be used by Family members in total 69 rai in 3 lots.

This my GF says. I quote will at least leave her free to pursue life with me for the next 10 years in my home country without having to worry me about sending money to support her family. Land will be there for us when we retire fully to Thailand and to build house on.

Father has only six rai at the moment to support family had more but sons got married.

Thai culture.

Gf is from Issan area and I have known her for 4 years

Maybe Sunbelt can clarify this minefield.

I don't think I can offer you much from a legal perspective. A lease or usufruct would I suspect not be of much practical use for someone who has split up from their girlfriend/wife and then has the prospects of taking possession and farming, or living on, land in close proximity to all her relatives.

It is quite a large area and presumably not exactly peanuts to acquire.

You must really decide if you are happy with this as a gift, as I am sure this is what it will be considered to be. Also do not consider (from personal experience) that this will be the end of support for the family. There is always a new "venture" that can make them a fortune.

As dsfbrit stated, the Constitution will have little relevance. A Land Code Amendment will be required.

Would concur. Was thinking exactly the same as Dragonman when saw his post. Make it a gift to your future wife and know you will have other gifts as well.... tractor, labor, etc.

What good does a lease or usufruct do on farmers land? It would be like hel_l on earth if you need to enforce this. Are you going to farm it? You can't as a foreigner. If you want to transfer the lease or usufruct... to who? Ever been to an auction, with everybody having their hand in their pocket?

If you do this, just consider the money is gone, it’s not yours anymore.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I would never consider taking an opposite position to Sunbelt nor Dragonman - I am much too humble.

I suspect that anyone who reads SeanOCasey's post will be, like I was at first, quite horrified at what he is suggesting, for many reasons.

I would say though, that although your legal comment on leases is, I am sure spot on, from a practical human point of view, if SeanOcasey feels obliged to do this land thing - then something (a lease?), anything is better than nothing. My wife keeps having great ideas similar to this - she is from Issan too - and I tend to say no - then buy the odd cow here and there to appease the family -

a lot cheaper than several Rai of land!!

As for leases being enforced - I know Dragonman states in another reply that he know of cases farang have won - but how many cases have been tested recently in the courts for these leases that are being set up for small plots of land? - its one of the reasons I am in a wait and see position on the company / land thing. I have no real confidence in the lease thing at all.

Am I wrong?

How do we Farang get ourselves in these situations !

Sunbelt, Dragonman - I am not trying to be a smart-arse - just trying to make sense of this legal jungle!

With regard to the enforcement of leases, I do not think you will find many lawyers who are not 99.9% ( nothing is 100% ) of the legality and possible enforcement of the 30 year lease. The Leasehold Amendment Act was specifically looked at by the Senate with regard to what should be the maximum permitted for foreigners. They decided on 30 years, not the 50 years suggested by the Ministry of Interior. This reasoning does not differ substantially from Property Law in general with what can be regarded equal to freehold ownership, and what is obviously not.

As foreigners have to sign to state that the Land is purely that of their spouse, she is thus a clearly defined separate entity, and I see no difference in law than signing a lease with a stranger ( other than she may find it easier to say you pressured her into signing). Sunbelt achieved for Mobi a signed agreement from his wife that says she fully understands the implications of the usufruct he established, you may obtain similar for the lease.

Leaseholds for foreigners have been around a long time (specifically mentioned in Amity), although of course it is only since 1999 that they have become readily available from the spouse. I think you will find there have been few Court Cases, as a challenge would be a waste of money, unless there is a breach.

[eljeque]

Few marriages in eh West last a lifetime. There is no reasont o believe that yours will be any different. Most marriages end with a lot of infighting. If this is the case, you will lose what you have put into it.

Why do they need 1.89M in land?

That is a lot of land. I know a lot of Thais with a fraction of that.

Why should you replace the lan that was given away for the sons to have wives. How many sons, and how many wives? Even at 100,000 or even 200,000 per son, that would still be nine sons. Does your wife have that many brothers?

You are giving your wife, and hence her family the opportunity of a lifetime by assisting her to move to your country and be able to save enough money to pay for 1/2 of the land. You have no other resonsibilities, and if her family is putting pressure on ehr to push you to pay for more, then have her tell them off... LOTS OF THAI GIRLS DO EXACTLY THAT, put up with it, or wash your hands of it.

You are not responsible for her family's lack of assets. The sons should be paying back what was paid for them to get married. I am sure you have read about bride prices and the like, and in this case, let them know that you will provide employment for their daughter for 2 years which will enable them to have this land.

My friend's girlfriend's father comes down to pattaya every once in a while, and my friend puts him to work mixing cement, building walls, painting, and the list goes on. He gives the family nothing. When he and his gf first got together, he gave 100,000 over the period of about 6 months to get them out of debt--so I am told. That's enough.

There is nothing wrong with helping, and my gf gets 10,000 / month from me plus bonuses and extras of which SHE SAVES nearly every baht. She sends a little home now and then and has helped them improve the family home a great deal. She has also bought 2 very good rai of rice land, as much of their former rice land is now being used for rubber trees. The whole country is jumping on this rubber tree kick, but none of the planters have read the papers published in this country on the future of rubber prices.

I am sorry to ramble, but it is not your responsibility. Many people say, you marry the family. That is not true. You marry a girl, and if she is trhe kind to bring the family along, and you are the kind to allow it, then you marry the family. If not, then you do not marry the family. If the young woman will have it no other way, then be a single man. If the family is virtually demanding the land purchase, and I would expect that they would bring it up again and again, then it is extortion. alk to some of your friends in your home country, first letting them know that you would have no rights to the land ever, and I am sure that they will take the side of not buying the land.

You do not have to look after her if the two of you ever separate, and she may very well stay in your country anyway. You will not want to live up there anyway.

In short, keep it a monthly payment kind of thing that you can stop any time that you want. If she or the family has problems with that, then you can wonder why. If its not good enough, then they should reconsider the payments made for the sons' wives.

It is their problem, not yours.

Read the book "Only 13" at Amazon.com and you will get some more ideas on why not to do buy the land or even pay half. You will not be in your own country where you can at least get some semblance of a fair hearing. You will not get a hearing, as you will have no rights to the property.

Please do not consider making a loan to them for the property and getting a power of attorney, as you would not want to own the land or try and push them to make payments. Also, there is the possibility of a very bad relative who could give you reasons not to return to Thailand.

Isaan property prices rising over the next two years, as interest rates are rising, not likely.

Good luck.

[tornado40]

Few marriages in eh West last a lifetime. There is no reasont o believe that yours will be any different. Most marriages end with a lot of infighting. If this is the case, you will lose what you have put into it.

It is their problem, not yours.

A great post - just in time!

Indeed. Having conversation with my TGF - she lives in the house and I give her 15,000 baht per month. Just come back and she started talking about new car (already have new bike) - then said what about rent shop for her and her sister - I thought 'here we go' then now it is for house in the home town for family so she could be there!

Means the car and the business will be no good - now I think - continue to give money and then as you say 'their problem!

[ando]

There have been several mentions about the possibility of transferring (? selling) a lease if things go bad.

I didnt think that was possible? I was under the impression that leases are not transferrable except by the owner of the property.

[dsfbrit]

Few marriages in eh West last a lifetime. There is no reasont o believe that yours will be any different. Most marriages end with a lot of infighting. If this is the case, you will lose what you have put into it.

It is their problem, not yours.

A great post - just in time!

Indeed. Having conversation with my TGF - she lives in the house and I give her 15,000 baht per month. Just come back and she started talking about new car (already have new bike) - then said what about rent shop for her and her sister - I thought 'here we go' then now it is for house in the home town for family so she could be there!

Means the car and the business will be no good - now I think - continue to give money and then as you say 'their problem!

Sadly I agree with both of you to a point. I would tongue-in-cheek say though that women all around the World have an inbuilt ability - its in their genes - to get their own way in the end, but I wish you luck with your approach.

A more serious comment I would add is that you can lose a wife in another way and that is of course through death. Not a nice subject I know, but its one of the concerns I have about this whole land/lease issue.

I think all posters here agree that a farang would probably not want to live with/near the family

after 'winning' a legal case. I suspect being involved with the family in a 'legal sense' would also not not appeal to most farang if their wife dies.

However, if a wife dies in 20 years time - who will take over the lease if it isn't the family - I know there's a Will - but...!

As I have posted elsewhere, I am considering options relating to the company / land ownership thing and one of those options is this lease approach favoured by some - including Dragonman, who has offered good advice and a solid argument about leases - both in this thread and elsewhere.

I have to say at this stage it feels a bit like the 'frying pan into the fire' and perhaps when I am forced to make this decision - selling and renting is the safest bet.

Dragonman, what is the situation on the 'death' scenario, I believe the farang gets the land for a period (1 year), then has time to dispose of everything or find someone to take over the lease.

Edited October 15, 2006 by dsfbrit

[Sunbelt Asia]

Dragonman, what is the situation on the 'death' scenario, I believe the farang gets the land for a period (1 year), then has time to dispose of everything or find someone to take over the lease.

It is possible for the foreigner to inherit up to one rai but the Minister of Interior must approve it.

If the Minister does not give approval, you have one year to live on the land until it is sold or transferred to a Thai national/ Company.

There have been several mentions about the possibility of transferring (? selling) a lease if things go bad.

I didnt think that was possible? I was under the impression that leases are not transferrable except by the owner of the property.

If the lease allows it. You are able to sublease or sell your rights.

You can register a lease with a usufruct, superficies ( you do not need the land owners permission but if the lease is longer than three years, the Land owner must bring the title deed to the Land office to allow the registration)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Dragonman]

Few marriages in eh West last a lifetime. There is no reasont o believe that yours will be any different. Most marriages end with a lot of infighting. If this is the case, you will lose what you have put into it.

It is their problem, not yours.

A great post - just in time!

Indeed. Having conversation with my TGF - she lives in the house and I give her 15,000 baht per month. Just come back and she started talking about new car (already have new bike) - then said what about rent shop for her and her sister - I thought 'here we go' then now it is for house in the home town for family so she could be there!

Means the car and the business will be no good - now I think - continue to give money and then as you say 'their problem!

Sadly I agree with both of you to a point. I would tongue-in-cheek say though that women all around the World have an inbuilt ability - its in their genes - to get their own way in the end, but I wish you luck with your approach.

A more serious comment I would add is that you can lose a wife in another way and that is of course through death. Not a nice subject I know, but its one of the concerns I have about this whole land/lease issue.

I think all posters here agree that a farang would probably not want to live with/near the family

after 'winning' a legal case. I suspect being involved with the family in a 'legal sense' would also not not appeal to most farang if their wife dies.

However, if a wife dies in 20 years time - who will take over the lease if it isn't the family - I know there's a Will - but...!

As I have posted elsewhere, I am considering options relating to the company / land ownership thing and one of those options is this lease approach favoured by some - including Dragonman, who has offered good advice and a solid argument about leases - both in this thread and elsewhere.

I have to say at this stage it feels a bit like the 'frying pan into the fire' and perhaps when I am forced to make this decision - selling and renting is the safest bet.

Dragonman, what is the situation on the 'death' scenario, I believe the farang gets the land for a period (1 year), then has time to dispose of everything or find someone to take over the lease.

The position on death of the spouse is as follows:-

If there is a correctly drafted Will, with you as Statutory Heir, the property will become yours, (subject to Ministry of Interior approval) but you have to sell or transfer within 1 year. Obviously as you are the temporary owner you have to cancel the lease. The way around this is for you to retain the lease, so that you can live there for up to 30 years, and put the ownership into "executorship" ( namely you) until you have sold or transfered the property. Thus the property will be sold with sitting tenant. Obviously which one is best depends if you have someone trustworthy to transfer the property to, and if you really want to live there.

ando. The Leasehold Amendment Act 1999 allows for sale or (by inference) inheritance, if the terms are included in the Leasehold Agreement. If there is no such clause the lease ceases on death of lessee(not lessor) and may not be sold or sub let.

[sinam]

I like the idea the gentleman had on getting the wife work half the price off. I would also suggest considering a gift of a down payment and let the wife or family to get a mortgage and they could make the payments once they start "working" the land. If the outcome is actually to work the land than this would be a proper incentive.

Also being the living optimist I am (unlike some others Thailand has made me more of one) I wonder if in relation to the one year rule on inheritance if there was a mortgage on the property, and in the event of a death of a spouse, if the authorities would allow you to pay the mortgage off first before giving you the one year to sell :-)

Si Nam

[dsfbrit]

The position on death of the spouse is as follows:-

If there is a correctly drafted Will, with you as Statutory Heir, the property will become yours, (subject to Ministry of Interior approval) but you have to sell or transfer within 1 year. Obviously as you are the temporary owner you have to cancel the lease. The way around this is for you to retain the lease, so that you can live there for up to 30 years, and put the ownership into "executorship" ( namely you) until you have sold or transfered the property. Thus the property will be sold with sitting tenant. Obviously which one is best depends if you have someone trustworthy to transfer the property to, and if you really want to live there.

ando. The Leasehold Amendment Act 1999 allows for sale or (by inference) inheritance, if the terms are included in the Leasehold Agreement. If there is no such clause the lease ceases on death of lessee(not lessor) and may not be sold or sub let.

Thanks for this feedback Dragonman.

So if in this scenario I eventually decided to put the land in the wifes family name and I guess do a lease for 30 years ? , but this time with the family - then would the family have the right to modify the land ie: build a small 'home' at the bottom of the garden and move in!

A silly scenario perhaps, but I am trying to understand the 'power' of the lease and my control over what goes on in - for what is to me - my home.

I think - to be honest - this is my real concern about the lease thing - the control I have over my personal space. After all if I rent a place and do not like what is going on in the immediate vicinity - I can move easily - same with full ownership(even if the company ownership - is a bit dodgy) - but with a lease - not so simple???

Thanks again for your time and help

[Dragonman]

The position on death of the spouse is as follows:-

If there is a correctly drafted Will, with you as Statutory Heir, the property will become yours, (subject to Ministry of Interior approval) but you have to sell or transfer within 1 year. Obviously as you are the temporary owner you have to cancel the lease. The way around this is for you to retain the lease, so that you can live there for up to 30 years, and put the ownership into "executorship" ( namely you) until you have sold or transfered the property. Thus the property will be sold with sitting tenant. Obviously which one is best depends if you have someone trustworthy to transfer the property to, and if you really want to live there.

ando. The Leasehold Amendment Act 1999 allows for sale or (by inference) inheritance, if the terms are included in the Leasehold Agreement. If there is no such clause the lease ceases on death of lessee(not lessor) and may not be sold or sub let.

Thanks for this feedback Dragonman.

So if in this scenario I eventually decided to put the land in the wifes family name and I guess do a lease for 30 years ? , but this time with the family - then would the family have the right to modify the land ie: build a small 'home' at the bottom of the garden and move in!

A silly scenario perhaps, but I am trying to understand the 'power' of the lease and my control over what goes on in - for what is to me - my home.

I think - to be honest - this is my real concern about the lease thing - the control I have over my personal space. After all if I rent a place and do not like what is going on in the immediate vicinity - I can move easily - same with full ownership(even if the company ownership - is a bit dodgy) - but with a lease - not so simple???

Thanks again for your time and help

You have total control over privacy! Depending on the terms of the lease you may modify reasonably the property, but of course you should give access for inspection, with reasonable notice. Again a way around any problems of privacy is for your Company to sell the land to your wife/family and for you to have a separate contract for the purchase of the building in your name. ( you will of course need your lawyer to set up these sales carefully) This also gets around any problems regarding having to sell the house within 1 year. You can live in it until the 30 year lease is up, and at the end of the lease will be partially compensated for the building's value, if evicted.

sinam. As the "executor", hopefully, as there is no guarantee of this in Thai Courts where "estate managers" are appointed by Court agreement only, you will be responsible for sorting out the mortgage. You will not be able to legally own the property, but I have heard of "sorting out" taking many years. If you get my gist.

[Old Man River]

The position on death of the spouse is as follows:-

If there is a correctly drafted Will, with you as Statutory Heir, the property will become yours, (subject to Ministry of Interior approval) but you have to sell or transfer within 1 year.

dsfbrit, I traded messages with Dragonman a few months ago on the same subject. For me, Dragonman's opinions are the best way to go. Even if the law says something different from his opinion, which it does, in practice his advice is the most safest, and we don't want to end up in our 70's finding bureacrates deciding to interpret their laws differently from the way written because they don't think the "spirit of the law" wanted farangs to inherit land. However, since I spent money on a legal opinion on this subject, you should know how the Thai law reads:

Land Code section 93 states that an alien can inherit land to the extent that the total area including the land on which the alien has already been acquired (or has not yet been acquired) shall not exceed that specified in section 87 of the Land Code, i.e. not more than 1 rai for residential purpose. Hence, in case you survive your spouse, the entire ownership of the land would belong to you without your need to sell it within one year.

After reading up on this and talking to many other people who all agreed with Dragonman (as I do), I went back to my attorney and questioned the advice. She then called the Land Department in Bangkok and talked to the Competent Authority, which is the person at government agencies that one should talk to about these subjects. The Competent Authority agreed with my attorney that I could inherit up to one rai of land for residential purposes, as per above.

Still, as I have said above, Dragonman's advice is the best here (better be safe than sorry) and putting a 30 year lease on the land would allow us to sleep better at night as laws could change and interpretations do always change. I just wanted you to be aware what the actual law states.

[dsfbrit]

Old Man River and Dragonman . Thanks for the feedback and advice.

I am slowly (very slowly) piecing this all together - thanks again.

[Dragonman]

The position on death of the spouse is as follows:-

If there is a correctly drafted Will, with you as Statutory Heir, the property will become yours, (subject to Ministry of Interior approval) but you have to sell or transfer within 1 year.

dsfbrit, I traded messages with Dragonman a few months ago on the same subject. For me, Dragonman's opinions are the best way to go. Even if the law says something different from his opinion, which it does, in practice his advice is the most safest, and we don't want to end up in our 70's finding bureacrates deciding to interpret their laws differently from the way written because they don't think the "spirit of the law" wanted farangs to inherit land. However, since I spent money on a legal opinion on this subject, you should know how the Thai law reads:

Land Code section 93 states that an alien can inherit land to the extent that the total area including the land on which the alien has already been acquired (or has not yet been acquired) shall not exceed that specified in section 87 of the Land Code, i.e. not more than 1 rai for residential purpose. Hence, in case you survive your spouse, the entire ownership of the land would belong to you without your need to sell it within one year.

After reading up on this and talking to many other people who all agreed with Dragonman (as I do), I went back to my attorney and questioned the advice. She then called the Land Department in Bangkok and talked to the Competent Authority, which is the person at government agencies that one should talk to about these subjects. The Competent Authority agreed with my attorney that I could inherit up to one rai of land for residential purposes, as per above.

Still, as I have said above, Dragonman's advice is the best here (better be safe than sorry) and putting a 30 year lease on the land would allow us to sleep better at night as laws could change and interpretations do always change. I just wanted you to be aware what the actual law states.

Yes the attorney and Land Department are correct, "could" being the operative word. The Minister of Interior, whoever he will be in the future, has the legislative right to allow you to keep the land. However, to date, this to my knowledge has never happened. A year has been given as per legal advice received by the Ministry, and also subsequently entered into the Condominium Act. My belief is that lawyers should advise their clients on practicalities, not simply quote the Civil & Commercial Code, or the Land Code. As long as people are advised of current problems at least they can establish Wills or Contracts to get around them.