Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[Moonsterk]

the shame the legal system brings on itself is downright amazing .....this bought and paid for ruling has every employee of the so called legal system hanging their heads in shame . their next thought is , if the police can do this , am I safe ? can it happen to me or my family ? the answer is yes if the money is right . this ruling ascends beautiful Thailand on the scale of human rights violations . north Korea and Thailand are about in the same place as far as law , crime , punishment , slavery and corruption go . but I love this country , its people , and culture . the power's that be , ehhh..... not so much .

No Thai will hang their head in shame as they do not feel remorse or guilt. They do not feel remorse or guilt when they do something bad because they do not possess a conscience. They do not have a conscience, as most of us do in the West, because it is not naturally innate. It is a genetically inherited cultural 'meme' which in our evolution we have aquired mainly from Christianity but which is absent from Buddhism and Thai culture:

Common secular or scientific views regard the capacity for conscience as probably genetically determined, with its subject probably learned or imprinted (like language) as part of a culture.^{[4]........from Wikipedia.}

Sunset T,

Yours is the most succinct post I have ever read on Thai people. It is so brilliant and true, I feel quite sure it will be deleted by nightfall, so I'm copying it and pasting it on any blog I can find regarding this subject.

For so long I have thought Thais to be.. soul-less, and yes I think your explanation is why- " soul " the conscience is a learned process, which is not taught in Asian cultures.

[AleG]

Probably one of the biggest travesties of so-called Thai justice in the decade. A 'cut and dried' verdict from the very moment the original investigating Police officer was removed as he was pointing in a different direction than the 2B patsies. Just proves that if you are a member of a wealthy Thai family you can get away with murder.

That meme has no basis on reality, it's been debunked over and over again, and then the people that cling to that and other demonstrably false "facts" look bewildered as how could it be that the two Burmese were found guilty.

Photo of one the murderers in line to have DNA samples taken over a week before Panya Mamen was promoted:

Incidentally the defense claims that never happened.

[freedom4life]

I get the underlying feeling that Michael Miller and the rest of the family of the late David Miller would have been satisfied if Winnie the Pooh had been found guilty; just so long as someone was. He observes that the two convicted men had shown no remorse for what they had done. Very difficult to show remorse for something one has not done.

were you there? What do you know? Exactly "Nothing"!!

How very true. No one knows the truth, but on the evidence, it points to them.

If it was a rich connected family, money is #1, no different to anywhere else. Case over, move on, no one cares!

a few lifetimes ..you may harbor an ounce of enlightenment..Case over, move on, no one cares!

[Artisi]

So who did it Perry Mason?

I think many posters know exactly who was involved - if you missed it you must be living under a rock.

Why should "many posters" here know who were the real murders? What special talent Thaivisa posters have or what privileged information are they privy to? Your statement is clearly incorrect, and if it isn't then all those posters who do know the identity of the murderers should be considered lower than anything that does live under a rock for not passing that information on.

Let's assume for 1 minute that there is a reasonable chance that it is known who the guilty persons (note the plural) are, where they are etc, now also assume that for a considerable consideration we over look these persons and place the blame elsewhere. Problem is now solved.

[StealthEnergiser]

I may not have a clue but I would think that the Families of the victims and the judges that were actually in the court room and are probably familiar with Thai law might have a clue. Yes you are wasting your breath because it is the judges that need to be convinced not you. It appears as though they were convinced

Yes I agree you don't seem to have clue .

[berybert]

If Davids family believe 100% guilty then they must surely know how David was killed. One can only assume if they believe he was killed with a hoe they have not seen the photos of his body.

Maybe one day when they see these photos they might question how a heavy hoe that is capable of destroying a womans face can only make a few small cuts on their sons body.

[StealthEnergiser]

Sadly but jusltly so, the opinions of the families of victims hold no sway in a fair trial.

The family got no choice and just to accept......

They were the ones that provided the evidence that proved the phone Wei Phyo took from the crime scene on the night of the murders was David Miller's.

I feel very sorry for all families not like yourself but I can tell you one thing if it was Hannah or David being accused of the murders their families wouldn't be accepting the decision quite so easy as they have now.

You would a lot better off sitting back and watching the next steps this is far from over and there are more holes in this decision than a block of swiss cheese do you really think International DNA experts will just sit back and do nothing ?

[phuketandsee]

Its quite simple they found semen in the girl they got a dna profile, they compared it to 200 people on the island and found a match with the 2 boys. The rest of the evidence proves that they were at the scene. Whatever happened to the original samples is irrelevant as the profile from the original samples is what was used as evidence. I dont think that it was contested by the defence. Its pretty overwhelming for anyone who can see the forest for the trees.

Everything you said is according to the RTP. Let me ask you, if you were on a jury in your home country and the only "evidence" you were provided with was what the police alleged (i.e. they provided no concrete, forensically verifiable evidence), would you convict? And convict of murder knowing a death sentence was attached and not just rape? Ask yourself honestly, would you?

Now add the RTP's reputation into the mix and the well documented <deleted>>-ups in this case?

Still seeing the forest? The RTP never presented any "trees"

I was not in the court room and I doubt you were either but if the evidence was inadequate don't you think the defence would have capitalized on this and fought to have the case thrown out? My understanding is that they did not contest this evidence.

I note you have not answered my question - would you vote to convict based solely on police say-so?

Edited December 25, 2015 by phuketandsee

[fxe1200]

Think it is safe to say that the whole investigation was flawed from the morning of day one and anything emanating from it is conjecture. How a guilty verdict can be reached is beyond all reason and tainted by the same reasoning.

The Thai police was on the right path, and the case almost solved, when the investigating officer was replaced.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Besides, Mr. Sean McAnna was threatened, to confess to the crime by two locals. That was the reason he fled the island. Did these locals wanted to save the 2B from being convicted? I doubt it. But they know who did it.The DNA results of Mon, who had his samples taken with broad publicity, never entered the court files, or have never been taken into account. The case stinks. The murderers are still free, and I strongly hope the whole truth will come to light soon.

[stephenterry]

The b2 did not murder Hannah and David.

[phuketandsee]

I think many of us expected, and dreaded, this verdict. But what has surprised, upset and confounded me is Michael Miller's statement. I have no wish to criticize the Miller family who must have been, and are continuing to go through hell, but I find the statement very strange and sad not least because of the way it is being used by the Thai media, and some here, to justify the appalling miscarriage of justice in this case. I have no doubt it will be often trotted out by the authorities in the weeks to come.

When he says that the RTP investigation has been "methodical and thorough" when it has so clearly has not and that they "raped to satisfy their selfish desires" when it is widely understood now that rape is not a crime of "desire" it is an act of violent power and control he seems to be reading from the prosecution's playbook. Something is not right here. But I guess that is par for this terrible, sad course

Edited December 25, 2015 by phuketandsee

[Artisi]

Think it is safe to say that the whole investigation was flawed from the morning of day one and anything emanating from it is conjecture. How a guilty verdict can be reached is beyond all reason and tainted by the same reasoning.

The Thai police was on the right path, and the case almost solved, when the investigating officer was replaced.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

Besides, Mr. Sean McAnna was threatened, to confess to the crime by two locals. That was the reason he fled the island. Did these locals wanted to save the 2B from being convicted? I doubt it. But they know who did it.The DNA results of Mon, who had his samples taken with broad publicity, never entered the court files, or have never been taken into account. The case stinks. The murderers are still free, and I strongly hope the whole truth will come to light soon.

But but but, we are important people and could / would never do such a thing, you can check the early records and see that those in authority have confirmed this fact.

Hopefully one day truth will out and the scum responsible will pay dearly. Not forgetting the top guy was more than happy with identifying the so-called guilty ones as the culprits very early in the day.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Artisi

[stephenterry]

I think many of us expected, and dreaded, this verdict. But what has surprised and upset and confounded me is Michael Miller's statement. I have no wish to criticize the Miller family who must have been, and are continuing to go through hell, but I find the statement very strange and sad not least because of the way it is being used by the Thai media, and some here, to justify the appalling miscarriage of justice in this case. I have no doubt it will be often trotted out by the authorities in the weeks to come.

When he says that the RTP investigation has been "methodical and thorough" when it has so clearly has not and that they "raped to satisfy their selfish desires" he seems to be reading from the prosecution's playbook. As as been often noted on previous threads rape is not a crime of "desire" it is an act of violent power and control. Something is not right here.

Well, I will criticize the Miller family. The statement is complete B/S and probably engineered by others. They clearly have no remorse or sensitivity for the Burmese mothers witnessing their rhetoric. I know I'll be open to abuse but like them it's my opinion.

[Charly2007]

Shame on Thailand...

[Artisi]

I think many of us expected, and dreaded, this verdict. But what has surprised and upset and confounded me is Michael Miller's statement. I have no wish to criticize the Miller family who must have been, and are continuing to go through hell, but I find the statement very strange and sad not least because of the way it is being used by the Thai media, and some here, to justify the appalling miscarriage of justice in this case. I have no doubt it will be often trotted out by the authorities in the weeks to come.

When he says that the RTP investigation has been "methodical and thorough" when it has so clearly has not and that they "raped to satisfy their selfish desires" he seems to be reading from the prosecution's playbook. As as been often noted on previous threads rape is not a crime of "desire" it is an act of violent power and control. Something is not right here.

Well, I will criticize the Miller family. The statement is complete B/S and probably engineered by others. They clearly have no remorse or sensitivity for the Burmese mothers witnessing their rhetoric. I know I'll be open to abuse but like them it's my opinion.

Correct, and how does it go, "you can fool some of the people some of the time....................................."

[brewsterbudgen]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

[TheCruncher]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

I completely agree. Playing armchair detective is one thing, but now that people start to call the family of the victims ignorant and having their statement engineerd, and even looking forward for appeals to get another free holiday, is simply disgusting and if I was the Miller family reading those posts a defamation suit against Thaivisa would be on its way already.

Edited December 25, 2015 by TheCruncher

[Artisi]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

And close TVF down as well as most postings are speculation intermingled with a lot of none-sense and a fair percentage distasteful.....

[condobrit001]

Latest from Andy Hall is that the defence's case will be heard by Region 8 Appeals court (Surat Thani) and the outcome likely from October 2016. Koh Samui is in the Surat Thani province, and I have little doubt that they would agree with the verdict made by their legal colleagues.

In which case, the defence will present it to the Supreme court - and by then we could be looking at late 2017 for the outcome. By then, war in Syria would have taken precedence.

Maybe time to close the thread until then? All this misguided armchair speculation might be titillating for some, but is distasteful and doesn't help anyone.

And close TVF down as well as most postings are speculation intermingled with a lot of none-sense and a fair percentage distasteful.....

Agreed, too many bar stool barristers.

[StealthEnergiser]

Koh Tao Murders: Court Says DNA Trumps Other Flaws in Case

SAMUI – Although it accepts that the case against the two Myanmar men - found guilty of killing two British tourists in southern Thailand last year - was not without flaws, the court said yesterday that DNA samples collected from the crime scene are so incontrovertible , that they justify a conviction.

The flaws include lack of chain of custody in evidence, arrest and interrogation of the two suspects without charge or legal representation and a lack of any witness who saw the two defendants committing the crimes.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 22, were found guilty Thursday of killing British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge on Koh Tao on Sept. 15, 2014. The two men were also convicted of raping Witheridge before killing her. Both victims died in the early hours of Sept. 15.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042373

[StealthEnergiser]

Koh Tao Murders: Rights Group Demands Fresh Investigation Into Torture Claims

BANGKOK - Amnesty International today issued a statement calling for an independent inquiry to determine whether the two Myanmar men, recently convicted of murder, were tortured into making a false confession as the defendants allege.

The international watchdog group said it feared that the two defendants, Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, might have been among the victims of ill treatment by the Thai police force, which is notorious for a long history of using force to extract false confessions.

The two men initially confessed that they were responsible for the Sept. 15, 2014, killings of British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge in southern Thailand, but the pair later retracted the confession, saying that they were beaten and coerced by local police to admit guilt against their will. The two suspects were also accused of raping Witheridge.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1451042817

[Artisi]

I think many of us expected, and dreaded, this verdict. But what has surprised and upset and confounded me is Michael Miller's statement. I have no wish to criticize the Miller family who must have been, and are continuing to go through hell, but I find the statement very strange and sad not least because of the way it is being used by the Thai media, and some here, to justify the appalling miscarriage of justice in this case. I have no doubt it will be often trotted out by the authorities in the weeks to come.

When he says that the RTP investigation has been "methodical and thorough" when it has so clearly has not and that they "raped to satisfy their selfish desires" he seems to be reading from the prosecution's playbook. As as been often noted on previous threads rape is not a crime of "desire" it is an act of violent power and control. Something is not right here.

Well, I will criticize the Miller family. The statement is complete B/S and probably engineered by others. They clearly have no remorse or sensitivity for the Burmese mothers witnessing their rhetoric. I know I'll be open to abuse but like them it's my opinion.

If you do come under attack just ignore it, as what you have said seems pretty close to the mark. I started watching the family statement out of interest but canned it as it was such a wimpy and condescending collection of rubbish delivered by someone without real understanding of the BIB & LOS

[Artisi]

On my way

[cumgranosalum]

The dead young man's UK brother is rigoruosly defending the verdict and dismissing claims this trail was a shambles. So we have to give that credence as that family was here at trail. This is being shown on BBC

"Credence"?? - You are joking, right?

The very LAST [people to give an opinion on any trial is family with a connection to that trial. One has to wonder WHY they are being given any air at all...unless it is part of some kind of mitigation offensive

Edited December 25, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[Pormax]

Like many others I expected this result.

I have my opinion like so many others, however I was not privy to all the information available to the trial Judge.

So I cannot be certain whether the outcome is correct.

Yes I have doubts about the verdict only because of reports about the mishandling of the case and conflicting so called evidence.

My thought is that IF the B2 are guilty then it would have made more sense to give a straight life sentence instead of the death penalty sentence.

My wife has already told me that on social media it has been said that Thais should be very worried now travelling to Myanmar because the country is angry with the verdict.

I think repercussions are maybe inevitable even from Myanmar people here working in Thailand.

The death sentence undoubtably provokes more anger than a life sentence which is maybe what will happen later anyway either through an appeal or by a Royal pardon..

It seems no thought has been given to this.

[xylophone]

This statement by David's brother has been playing on my mind, as of course have other aspects of this fiasco, but first of all this from David's brother: “David was hacked from behind, dragged into the sea and left to die,” said Miller’s brother, Michael, standing by his parents,

Where did he get the word "hacked" from because the wounds on the back of David's head are not conducive with someone being "hacked", and certainly those small wounds were not caused by the hoe which was used on Hannah's head. Perhaps he didn't fully understand what had happened and was convinced by the stories from the BIB.

There are too many unanswered questions in this case and perhaps someone would like to help me in understanding them:

– Clearly the wounds on the back of David's head were not caused by the hoe, so was it ever established what did cause them?

– To inflict eight wounds on the back of the head of someone of David's stature would have taken more than one or two 5 foot slightly built individuals, IMO indicating that he was held down whilst this was being perpetrated.

– The hoe which was photographed at the murder scene was not the same hoe which was presented in the court as evidence, how could that be?

– The police evidence was was not collected by people trained in forensic skills, so how could the judge accept the evidence they collected?

For me the above are of paramount importance, but then again there are many other aspects of this case which do not bear scrutiny in any way, shape or form.

From all that has been published, posted and reported it would appear that the only "evidence" that convicted these Burmese boys was that the semen found in Hannah's body belonged to them – – the problem being that there is no evidence to support that, only the police say so.

So this case hinged upon the integrity of the police, particularly in this instance, and we all know how much we can trust that.

[TheCruncher]

This statement by David's brother has been playing on my mind, as of course have other aspects of this fiasco, but first of all this from David's brother: “David was hacked from behind, dragged into the sea and left to die,” said Miller’s brother, Michael, standing by his parents,

Where did he get the word "hacked" from because the wounds on the back of David's head are not conducive with someone being "hacked", and certainly those small wounds were not caused by the hoe which was used on Hannah's head. Perhaps he didn't fully understand what had happened and was convinced by the stories from the BIB.

There are too many unanswered questions in this case and perhaps someone would like to help me in understanding them:

– Clearly the wounds on the back of David's head were not caused by the hoe, so was it ever established what did cause them?

– To inflict eight wounds on the back of the head of someone of David's stature would have taken more than one or two 5 foot slightly built individuals, IMO indicating that he was held down whilst this was being perpetrated.

– The hoe which was photographed at the murder scene was not the same hoe which was presented in the court as evidence, how could that be?

– The police evidence was was not collected by people trained in forensic skills, so how could the judge accept the evidence they collected?

For me the above are of paramount importance, but then again there are many other aspects of this case which do not bear scrutiny in any way, shape or form.

From all that has been published, posted and reported it would appear that the only "evidence" that convicted these Burmese boys was that the semen found in Hannah's body belonged to them – – the problem being that there is no evidence to support that, only the police say so.

So this case hinged upon the integrity of the police, particularly in this instance, and we all know how much we can trust that.

Or even more perhaps, the family of the victims has access to information that is not available to CSI Thaivisa.

[Brer Fox]

I get the underlying feeling that Michael Miller and the rest of the family of the late David Miller would have been satisfied if Winnie the Pooh had been found guilty; just so long as someone was. He observes that the two convicted men had shown no remorse for what they had done. Very difficult to show remorse for something one has not done.

were you there? What do you know? Exactly "Nothing"!!

Exactly the same "nothing" that you know Fred.

[metisdead]

Some off topic nonsense posts and replies have been removed.

[phuketandsee]

Interesting comment posted by a Burmese on Andy Hall's FB page regarding the involvement and fate of the wearer of the No9 football jersey. Maybe this is going to unravel after all as the Burmese start to talk.