Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[SiSePuede419]

Every cell in your body (except Germ cells) have two copies of 23 chromosomes. One copy from your mother and one copy from your father.

Germ cells (eggs or sperm) only have one copy of each of the 23 chromosomes. Each chosen at random. Every sperm cell has different genes.

"The DNA tests of semen can take several days or several weeks before results are available, depending upon which techniques have been used by the lab (and which lab has done the DNA testing). DNA tests can show that the semen is not from the suspect. Or these tests can show that the DNA in the sperm is not detectably different from the suspect's. But DNA testing can never prove with complete certainty that the semen is from the suspect."

That's pretty clear, isn't it?

[TheCruncher]

13 is only the minimum number of required loci for most of the profiles in CODIS. They can test for more if they want. The UK is higher, I believe.

Q: What are the minimum loci requirements for the STR DNA data submitted to NDIS?

A: The minimum CODIS Core Loci required for submission of DNA data to NDIS vary by specimen category. Generally, the 13 CODIS Core Loci are required for submission of convicted offender, arrestee, detainee, and legal profiles. The 13 CODIS Core Loci and Amelogenin are required for relatives of missing person profiles.

All 13 CODIS Core Loci must be attempted for other specimen categories with the following limited exceptions:

• For forensic DNA profiles, all 13 CODIS Core Loci must be attempted but at least 10 CODIS Core Loci must have generated results for submission to and searching at NDIS.
• For Missing Person and Unidentified Human Remains, all 13 CODIS Core Loci must be attempted.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/codis-and-ndis-fact-sheet

your knowledge on dna and CODIS is lacking,

Do you know what the Loci identification are

16 locus – Amp FLSTR Identifier (USA)

16 locus - PowerPlex 16 (USA)

13 locus – CODIS (USA)

10 locus - AmpFLSTR SGM Plus (UK)

9 locus – AmpFLSTR Profiler Plus (Australia)

Examples taken from page 22 of Taupin, J.M. (2014). Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals. CRC Press.

Available at: https://books.google.co.th/books/about/Introduction_to_Forensic_DNA_Evidence_fo.html?id=2rfMBQAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

“Profiling kits are being developed in response to a recommendation to expand the CODIS core loci from 13 STRs to 20 required loci and 3 optional loci (Hares, 2012)” (Taupin, 2014, pg 22)

Different jurisdictions have different systems in place. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t the technology there to test for more loci. A 16 loci profile, as in the Koh Tao case, isn’t unusual.

Wow......Joined a few days ago straight onto this topic with all your posts !!!

How lucky are we to have a DNA keyboard expert fresh from the shill camp!

I understand that it must really severe a nerve when someone shows up, piercing straight through your conspiracy bubbles, with facts and evidences.

Keep the info coming STE.

[greenchair]

You think it's OK to attempt to ruin people's businesses and hurt their employees and their dependents based on unfounded accusations?

As a matter of principles I don't; but apparently some people just can't understand the concept of principles and need to look for some ulterior motivations behind a person an ethical position...

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

A bit nearer the mark are the serious allegations of Torture by the Thai police of the B2 which still haven't been investigated and probably never will be despite calls from Amnesty and HRW

Amnesty International last week called for an independent investigation into allegations that torture was used to get confessions in the case. The two men said they were innocent and gave confessions in fear of their lives. The Thai government denied the torture claims.

Human Rights Watch called for the ruling to be reviewed, in a statement following the verdict.

In a trial where torture allegations by the two accused were left uninvestigated and DNA evidence was called into question by Thailand's most prominent forensic pathologist, both the ruling and these death sentences are profoundly disturbing, said Phil Robertson, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Asia division.

You'll notice that amnesty international is protesting about the way the confession was obtained. Not about the verdict or the b2 innocence. These are separate cases. If the b2 are guilty of murder, they still are entitled to their rights. And as such have the right to file a separate case against the police.

The burmese government is not against the guilty verdict either, but would like to have the death penalty sentence removed.

The judge said the sentence was based on the evidence presented by the prosecutors, and lack of reasonable arguments by the defense.

The verdict had little to do with the confession.

[metisdead]

A post containing unsubstantiated content in violation of fair use policy has been removed as well as the replies. Some other posts not addressing the topic have been removed as well:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[DiscoDan]

Except that there weren't any bite marks. The British coroner confirmed this.

Embalming washes out bit marks, and bodies have to be embalmed if they are put on a plane.

We seem to be going around in circles again

Embalming heals lesions on cadavers? Wow! This has to be one of the best kept sectets in the world! A bit like the mythical Golden Fleece then? Does it bring cadavers back to life too?

I said bite marks you need to go and do some research there is a lot of information on the internet.

[DiscoDan]

could anyone else's DNA match the profiles recorded?

Yes-identical twin brothers of Win & Zaw.

you mean the match of twin saliva samples taken from each of the accused - prove me wrong, produce the original samples

I asked a question a few days ago about the roti seller, is he still on the Island ? is he still selling roti ?

IF he is still alive, I would think he is a very lonely and worried man.

One thing for certain, he will never be safe back in his homeland.

And I can't see his paymasters and new friends in Thailand worrying about his welfare anytime soon.

No Rohingya are safe in there homeland.

[TheLobster]

Of course they want it swept under the carpet asap, so they can carry on 'living the dream' on that hellhole island.

God forbid it might affect their long running competition of who can sleep with the most fresh meat dive students.

although this particular crime turned out to be a murder there was a very interesting post on TVF some time ago making reference to Koh Tao and its less than savory past criminal activities especially those involving rape accusations made by young western girls holidaying on the Island, there have also been suspected murders, I can't find the post but it was made by someone that lived there for a decent length of time

This particular crime against Hannah could well have started as an intended rape that went bad because of the interference of David and culminated in a double murder.

Possibly Lots of young innocent western girls being prayed upon by local thugs who seem have the run of the place and an ego and attitude that they can get away with anything when the opportunity presents.

Most murder investigations have an almost identical approach by police investigators

1. Establish a motive (very important) - in this case it was claimed to be sexual in nature (UK coroner stated no evidence of rape)

2. Investigations almost always start from the location the victims were last known to be alive and from there look for a motive - the initial investigation more or less seemed to have started in this way but then suddenly stopped and went dark. A possible motive was the strongly rumoured altercation with one of the staff were Hannah was last seen alive

3. Establish the movements of the victims from item 2 above by interviewing witnesses and review cctv footage if available - not done - hidden or prevented, were they together ? did they leave together ? times ? who did they talk to ? who were they with ?

4. The rest is down to (SOCO) gathering evidence from the crime scene (we all know how that went) bringing it together to establish possible suspects based on the motive and linking them to the crime using the gathered evidence, in this particular crime it was primarily the DNA evidence they claimed to have but have yet never produced, also the injuries to David especially the small puncture wounds never properly explained.

5. Make a case for prosecution using all of the above and present to court

for me there are serious issues with every item listed above which is why I remain unconvinced

Yes, there are serious issues with every item, namely that you assume facts not in evidence, if not directly contested by the known facts.

1. The UK coroner (according to Andy Hall) said that she found no rape related injuries, which does not mean rape didn't occur.

2. You assume the police changed the direction of the investigation for... reasons, the rumor you are clinging to has never been substantiated by any credible source.

3. The prosecution spent one day (12 hours) going through CCTV footage tracing the movements of the victims.

4. The DNA evidence was presented in court, you are in absolute denial regarding that. As for the injuries, again, you assume they were not explained... did you even bother to read the preliminary verdict report?

5. That's what the prosecution did.

I suggest that you remain unconvinced because your assumptions don't match with the known facts. If you would inform yourself and stop rejecting facts that you don't like things would probably become less confusing.

I think the trouble is most members are having trouble distinguishing 'facts' from fiction and have a lack of confidence in the 'evidence' presented for obvious reasons.

[HUH]

Why not?

The Thai police do it to peoples lives in 'safe rooms' to get the answers they want; why can't it work the other way?

A bit nearer the mark are the serious allegations of Torture by the Thai police of the B2 which still haven't been investigated and probably never will be despite calls from Amnesty and HRW

Amnesty International last week called for an independent investigation into allegations that torture was used to get confessions in the case. The two men said they were innocent and gave confessions in fear of their lives. The Thai government denied the torture claims.

Human Rights Watch called for the ruling to be reviewed, in a statement following the verdict.

In a trial where torture allegations by the two accused were left uninvestigated and DNA evidence was called into question by Thailand's most prominent forensic pathologist, both the ruling and these death sentences are profoundly disturbing, said Phil Robertson, the deputy director of Human Rights Watch's Asia division.

You'll notice that amnesty international is protesting about the way the confession was obtained. Not about the verdict or the b2 innocence. These are separate cases. If the b2 are guilty of murder, they still are entitled to their rights. And as such have the right to file a separate case against the police.

The burmese government is not against the guilty verdict either, but would like to have the death penalty sentence removed.

The judge said the sentence was based on the evidence presented by the prosecutors, and lack of reasonable arguments by the defense.

The verdict had little to do with the confession.

You'll also notice HRW has called for the ruling to be reviewed but perhaps you missed that bit.........conveniently.

[smedly]

your knowledge on dna and CODIS is lacking,

Do you know what the Loci identification are

16 locus – Amp FLSTR Identifier (USA)

16 locus - PowerPlex 16 (USA)

13 locus – CODIS (USA)

10 locus - AmpFLSTR SGM Plus (UK)

9 locus – AmpFLSTR Profiler Plus (Australia)

Examples taken from page 22 of Taupin, J.M. (2014). Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals. CRC Press.

Available at: https://books.google.co.th/books/about/Introduction_to_Forensic_DNA_Evidence_fo.html?id=2rfMBQAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

“Profiling kits are being developed in response to a recommendation to expand the CODIS core loci from 13 STRs to 20 required loci and 3 optional loci (Hares, 2012)” (Taupin, 2014, pg 22)

Different jurisdictions have different systems in place. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t the technology there to test for more loci. A 16 loci profile, as in the Koh Tao case, isn’t unusual.

Wow......Joined a few days ago straight onto this topic with all your posts !!!

How lucky are we to have a DNA keyboard expert fresh from the shill camp!

I understand that it must really severe a nerve when someone shows up, piercing straight through your conspiracy bubbles, with facts and evidences.

Keep the info coming STE.

STE has added nothing new, nobody here is disputing that some dna may have been tested, the issue is fairly simple, police claim that sperm was found in the victim and they tested those "original samples" against saliva samples from the accused "in their own lab", the problem I and many have is simple and also fundamental to submitting physical evidence in court, they have been unable or unwilling to produce the "original samples", that is a huge red flag were dna is concerned and until they produce the "original samples" I and many others remain unconvinced

and don't say prosecution offered up the dna for retest, what they offered was extracted/processed samples which there is no way to identify their source, could easily have all been from saliva samples which would have been as useful as a fart in a space suit for the defence as verification, if the original samples are no longer available then they should say so - lost, used up, missing, whatever, but as I have said before - if as the police chief stated they still have them, why not have them retested at the CIFS against the accused, some claimed here that the defence refused such a retest, surely something very obvious here for the prosecution - get the retest done under strict observed and by the book conditions - slam dunk, game over if they match.

[TheLobster]

Except that there weren't any bite marks. The British coroner confirmed this.

Embalming washes out bit marks, and bodies have to be embalmed if they are put on a plane.

We seem to be going around in circles again

no evidence of rape would IMO include sperm, yet to be clarified

It strongly suggests that the UK autopsy did not discover any sperm which contradicts the translated court summary that the victim was raped until ejaculation

[Artisi]

Except that there weren't any bite marks. The British coroner confirmed this.

Embalming washes out bit marks, and bodies have to be embalmed if they are put on a plane.

We seem to be going around in circles again

no evidence of rape would IMO include sperm, yet to be clarified

It strongly suggests that the UK autopsy did not discover any sperm which contradicts the translated court summary that the victim was raped until ejaculation

More likely it suggests that no autopsy report has been released by the UK.....

Edited January 2, 2016 by CharlieH
"report" added

[HUH]

More likely it suggests that no autopsy has been released by the UK.....

You can't release an autopsy, maybe you meant autopsy report?

Oh bugger! did I omit report - but luckily being so intelligent you understood.

It was released, all 400 pages along with photos. Copies given to judge and prosecution. However it was up to the judges discretion whether they took it into account, it appears they did not.

The UK report confirmed no bite marks, no signs of rape. I'm also presuming it did not confirm the tear wound in the victims private parts, which the prosecution witness said was there.

When releasing the report the UK coroner said that this was for natural justice/the rights of the accused.

[Artisi]

More likely it suggests that no autopsy has been released by the UK.....

You can't release an autopsy, maybe you meant autopsy report?

Oh bugger! did I omit report - but luckily being so intelligent you understood.

It was released, all 400 pages along with photos. Copies given to judge and prosecution. However it was up to the judges discretion whether they took it into account, it appears they did not.

The UK report confirmed no bite marks, no signs of rape. I'm also presuming it did not confirm the tear wound in the victims private parts, which the prosecution witness said was there.

When releasing the report the UK coroner said that this was for natural justice/the rights of the accused.

My bad, I dismissed the fact that a report was released thinking that nothing would be released that could influence a death penalty.

[Khun Han]

Except that there weren't any bite marks. The British coroner confirmed this.

Embalming washes out bit marks, and bodies have to be embalmed if they are put on a plane.

We seem to be going around in circles again

Embalming heals lesions on cadavers? Wow! This has to be one of the best kept sectets in the world! A bit like the mythical Golden Fleece then? Does it bring cadavers back to life too?

I said bite marks you need to go and do some research there is a lot of information on the internet.

A bite mark is skin damage: a bruise and/or cut.

And I was so intrigued by your bizarre claim that I already have done some internet research. Odd, and rather gruesome reading, but fascinating all the same. Cuts and other small open wounds are sealed with plasters prior to the embalming process, bruises (for the purpose of family viewing) are concealed with make up post-embalming.

Are there no levels people like you won't stoop to in order to deflect discepancies in the 'evidence'? ugh!!!

[Khun Han]

Nomsod at various times with long hair.

Nomsod with his lawyer and new haircut.

Nomsod with his new buddies...

One thing I don't get: What on earth was Somyot grinning at? What was he even doing there? Wasn't this a private test set up by Nomsod's dad?

The picture with Somyot is absolutely freighting and sends a shiver down my spine.

Something is very wrong there and I believe consequences will materialize.

It came across to me at the time as a piece of high profile media propaganda to the masses: 'good people' were being very publicly cleared of involvement in a crime by the highest authorities. Quite the pantomime.

[iReason]

Quite the pantomime indeed.

[Khun Han]

Somyot on the head table sat next to Voranai Tuvichien. Wasn't Somyot involved in some kind of business deal with Voranai at the time? Building a resort south of Bangkok, or something like that? Maybe he was just at the pantomine as a private citizen and friend of the family? Maybe he never takes his police general's uniform off, even sleeps in it?

[boomerangutang]

You'll also notice HRW has called for the ruling to be reviewed but perhaps you missed that bit.........conveniently.

To me it seems a waste of time for any group, whether it be Amnesty Int. or HRW or the Burmese military chief or whomever to ask Thai officialdom to review the verdict. It's like having a stray dog review the activities of stray dogs. There's only one resolve the review can come up with: no mischief.

[DJVillain]

So you think that is OK to do unethical things to harm people because you think that some other people did something unethical?

Wow... just wow.

You seem to think its fine to torture poor people into confessing to heinous crimes so that tourists aren't scared to come and spend money on Koh Tao (I would think because you have business interests there)

I think its perfectly fine to destablise the businesses and lives of people who believe that torture is acceptable in order to get the truth.

If causing every single bar and dive school on Koh Tao to have to close down to make someone bleat and tell the truth (because someone on that goddamn island knows something), then so be it... I hope everyone there goes bankrupt and would happily see every business go under...

The only difference between you and I is that I don't like the idea of seeing innocent people get put to death for the sake of my bank balance

I don't think it's fine to torture people, and my bank balance has nothing to do with anything.

You just make assumptions of guilt and then feel justified to punish the innocent and the assumed guilty alike; that has nothing to do with justice, not even retribution, it's just an expression of hatred.

No... Its justice but by playing the same game that you are.

Only problem is, when someone else plays by the same rules but against you, you don't like it.

The Burmese have been set up by some rich, self serving bullies on the island who have bribed and threatened people into silence and people like you just go 'yep, no worries, as long as the tourists keep coming to Koh Tao, lets sail those two patsies down the river'

That has nothing to do with justice...

[PaPiPuPePo]

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.[/size]

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

[/size]Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .[/size]

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Where there is no chain of custody DNA evidence is meaningless. Simple are that.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have an agenda.

I was just about to respond to another of this member's posts, then saw your response. That's my conclusion too, this guy is posting over and over on this thread pushing what he himself admits at one point is just his opinion--the B2 did it--but ridiculing the opposing view, gloating over the verdict, and otherwise acting like he's either got a stake in the outcome, or, sad to say, is over-involved to an unhealthy extent with the case, as some times happens.

I mean, look at that sentence above, completely misconstruing the significance of Taupin's statement, twisting it to the disadvantage of the defendants, and augmenting the wows and exclamation points with an applauding emoticon. That's nearly deranged in my book.

[jucel]

DNA Failings

1. It consists of a one page table replete with hand written amendments, date changes and data alterations. This document would NOT be admissible in any court in the UK, Australia, USA, EU, Hong Kong, Malaysia or Singapore.

2. It is NOT supported by any case notes, chain-of-custody records, nor statistics based on validated population data bases. The omission of that information is a COMPLETE abrogation of international ISO 17025 standards and would lead to a FULL audit of the police laboratory by an international accreditation agency!

3. The table has been used to match DNA components, which is an extreme oversimplification of the entire DNA process! It relies on single alleles rather than genotypes. (An allele is ONE of a pair of genes that appear in ONE part of a chromosome that help to determine heredity traits.)

4. Because there is NO statistical analysis to determine the probability of the stated frequencies in the table, it is absolutely NOT possible to determine the likelihood of the accused as being the contributors to the mixture! There, in fact, could be a VERY large number of other individuals who could NOT be ruled out as contributors!

5. It is, therefore, COMPLETELY erroneous (wrong) to claim a DNA match on the basis of the position of mere alleles on a DNA molecule without statistics to determine the probability!

For these reasons, it CANNOT be said (from any kind of scientific or legal standpoint) that there was a match between the DNA from the semen the police alleged to have and the DNA that was (forcibly, without consent or legal representation) retrieved from the two accused! Basing the conviction on COMPLETELY flawed DNA evidence has resulted in an EXTREME miscarriage of justice!

[iReason]

"Only two people were present for the entire process: a police officer and a police doctor. There were no photographs of the process, either.”

“When we mentioned this in the court, they quipped that we have been watching too much CSI."

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626

Edited January 2, 2016 by iReason

[Khun Han]

“When we mentioned this in the court, they quipped that we have been watching too much CSI."

One can just imagine the kind of rebuke such a flippant and disrespectful answer would have received from the judge in a real court.

[metisdead]

A post containing unsubstantiated content in violation of fair use policy has been removed.

[Bung]

I think you have to realise that when dealing with these judges in Thailand you have to tread very carefully and show utmost respect to them. Anyone who has spent any time in Thailand will know what I mean. Thai courts are no place for defense attorny's to go in with guns blazing. It would end badly. It would explain why the defense didn't go gunning as many say they should have.

[Khun Han]

^If you're referring to the "watching too much csi" comment, it was made by a police witness, not the judges.

[iReason]

“A Thai man said he was beaten up by police after he turned down a police offer of reward money if he agreed to be a witness in the murder case of two British tourists in Thailand’s tourist island of Koh Tao”

“During the interrogation, the police investigators asked him to agree to pretend to have knowledge of the incident, Pornprasit said.”

“The police allegedly offered him a 700,000 baht reward and guaranteed him witness status.”

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4373

[HUH]

More protests expected against conviction of two men for murdering David Miller http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2016-01-02/more-protests-expected-against-conviction-of-two-men-for-murdering-david-miller/

[iReason]

“Prasit brought the issue up with Assawin sae-Phoo, head of local taxi drivers on the tourist island, citing "fear for his life after turning down the offer".

"Assawin later took Prasit's complaint to Korbchai Saowalak, the kamnan of tambon Koh Tao.”

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-promised-cash-reward-to-buy-false-testimony-30244573.html

[Islandlife]

“A Thai man said he was beaten up by police after he turned down a police offer of reward money if he agreed to be a witness in the murder case of two British tourists in Thailand’s tourist island of Koh Tao”

“During the interrogation, the police investigators asked him to agree to pretend to have knowledge of the incident, Pornprasit said.”

“The police allegedly offered him a 700,000 baht reward and guaranteed him witness status.”

http://prachatai.org/english/node/4373

i remember reading this and then next day nothing.