A foreign father want to bring outside of Thailand his Thai kid, how to do ?

[sirineou]

A lot of good information in this forum and a lot of misinformation. 

I travel with my Daughter all the time and.......

You absolutely need a letter of consent when both parents are not present at the time of travel from the unavailable parent.

  Though it is true that you might not be asked for it,(you should be) You should certainly have it in the likely event that you are asked. 

Plenty of sample letters available for download on the internet. Below is a link to one.

https://philalegal.org/html/Sample_letter_of_consent_to_travel.pdf

Any Thai Citizen with dual passports should enter Thailand with her Thai passport,  and leave with her Thai passport.  when she get to her travel destination, he/she should enter with the passport of that country, and depart with the passport of that country. 

 A couple of years ago we came to Thailand from the US ,  Me my wife and her friend, both my wife and her friend had dual passports, My wife entered on her Thai passport, her friend with which we had being briefly separated , possibly to show off her US passport, unbeknown to as, entered with her US passport. We Thought nothing about it. After two months at our departure, my wife's friend was stopped at the airport for OVERSTAY, she almost missed her flight shorting it out and I don't remember how much it cost her.

[puchooay]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You absolutely need a letter of consent when both parents are not present at the time of travel from the unavailable parent.

As I pointed out, you do not "absolutely" need it. It is a good idea have a letter from Mum if Dad is going with child but not essential. 

 

Your link even says "may".

Edited December 9, 2019 by puchooay

[sanemax]

16 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Yes, it was. Not sure why you are asking so many questions over and over. I think my posts have been clear and precise.

 

Just a re cap.....1st, 2nd and more times I have never been asked for any proof of relationship or permissions to take my daughter out of Thailand. Neither have any friends or acquaintances of mine. This includes times within the past 2 years and less.

OK, intersting .

You took your daughter out of Thailand with a blank passport in the last few years without the mothers written consent .

  Which exit point did you use as many exit points will not allow you to do that .

[puchooay]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

OK, intersting .

You took your daughter out of Thailand with a blank passport in the last few years without the mothers written consent .

  Which exit point did you use as many exit points will not allow you to do that .

Personally, Suvannaphumi. Others I know have used Don Muang.

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Personally, Suvannaphumi. Others I know have used Don Muang.

Thanks for the info .

So, all you guys who cannot take your Children out of Thailand because the mother will not allow it , just go to either Swampy or DM and jump on a flight with no questions asked about why the kid has no entry stamp and why you havent been to court to gain official permission  from the mother .

  Its that simple and easy 

[puchooay]

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Thanks for the info .

So, all you guys who cannot take your Children out of Thailand because the mother will not allow it , just go to either Swampy or DM and jump on a flight with no questions asked about why the kid has no entry stamp and why you havent been to court to gain official permission  from the mother .

  Its that simple and easy 

Why throw your toys out of the pram?

 

Who said anything about mother not allowing it? Who said anything about court? Mother NOT allowing it and not having written permission from her is a totally different kettle of fish. One would imagine that if mother was serious about the situation she would take steps to stop it. Take away the child's Thai passport for example.

 

I merely stated that in many instances, that I am aware of, no proof has been required. I also stated that I did have a written permission but was not asked for it.

 

 

[sanemax]

9 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Why throw your toys out of the pram?

 

Who said anything about mother not allowing it? Who said anything about court? Mother NOT allowing it and not having written permission from her is a totally different kettle of fish. One would imagine that if mother was serious about the situation she would take steps to stop it. Take away the child's Thai passport for example.

 

I merely stated that in many instances, that I am aware of, no proof has been required. I also stated that I did have a written permission but was not asked for it.

 

 

Who is throwing their toys out the pram ?

I did previously state that we were talking about a situation where the Mother didnt give official consent , but as you stated, written consent isnt required ,  just go to DM and get on a plane and just hope that no one asks to see any consent forms from the mother .

  Although that is against thai immigrations laws, nice to hear that it can be done . 

Just wonder what would happen if they did ask for mothers consent forms and you didnt have them .

  The ere was a news story last year where a felang tried that and got arrested for Child trafficking, even though it was his own child , seem to recall he got jailed for doing that

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, puchooay said:

As I pointed out, you do not "absolutely" need it. It is a good idea have a letter from Mum if Dad is going with child but not essential. 

I guess IF one does not "Absolutely need it' depends on one's trouble aversion index. 

it is required by the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction and adhered to by most countries at a different level, and at these countries by the individual IOs discretion

Several threads in this forum suggesting that IOs in Thailand often require it, furthermore it might be required in Australia for domestic travel.  Why anyone would risk it and not have one is beyond me.

      So to re-cup, Without it , you might not be able to leave thailand, and when in Australia, you might not be able to travel domestically.  IMO that would indicate absolute requirement , unless we want to quibble semantics. 

 Not sure about Australia, this is what I found.

"A Travel Consent Form is used when a child is traveling alone, with only one parent/legal guardian, or with an authorised group. This document notifies authorities or other interested parties that a parent or legal guardian has given their consent for the child to travel without them. This document can be used both for domestic travel inside Australia or international travel across country borders. Because of increasing instances of child abduction in custody cases, and a growing number of children who are the victims of trafficking or other abduction, an immigration officer, airline, or travel company may ask parents to provide some form of letter of consent if a minor child is traveling internationally with only one parent or with another adult, such as a teacher, group trip leader, or grandparent. "

https://www.wonder.legal/au/modele/travel-consent-form-au

[orchis]

There was a man in front of me in Suvarnabhumi this is about 2 years ago with a child and after a very long discussion, which I didn't hear, the man and the child were lead away landside. I realise this is purely anecdotal but there was a problem there.

[puchooay]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Who is throwing their toys out the pram ?

I did previously state that we were talking about a situation where the Mother didnt give official consent , but as you stated, written consent isnt required ,  just go to DM and get on a plane and just hope that no one asks to see any consent forms from the mother .

  Although that is against thai immigrations laws, nice to hear that it can be done . 

Just wonder what would happen if they did ask for mothers consent forms and you didnt have them .

  The ere was a news story last year where a felang tried that and got arrested for Child trafficking, even though it was his own child , seem to recall he got jailed for doing that

Nowhere have I ever stated I did not have written permission. I did have written permission. At the airport I went to the desk for foreigners. My daughter went in the Thai queue. She left on a passport scan. No stamp out. No questions. Nothing.

 

As mentioned by another poster, it is not immigration law.

 

The idea of someone being jailed for trying to take his kid out of Thailand is laughable. I would imagine there was a lot more to that story.

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, puchooay said:

Nowhere have I ever stated I did not have written permission.

Yes you did, in post Number 34 above .

I asked whether you took your kid out of Thailand without the mothers permission and  and you confirmed that you did and also stated where you exited 

 

[puchooay]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Yes you did, in post Number 34 above .

I asked whether you took your kid out of Thailand without the mothers permission and  and you confirmed that you did and also stated where you exited 

 

I did not. You assumed I did not have permission even though I had stated previously that I did have. I pointed out previously that I was simply not asked for it. 

 

I merely answered your question about what port I left from.

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by puchooay

[blackcab]

Personally, I always advise people in this situation to get the letter from their District Office. It's easy to obtain and in my opinion not worth the risk of missing a flight if you encounter an immigration officer who insists on seeing it.

[richard_smith237]

16 hours ago, puchooay said:

On 12/6/2019 at 11:08 PM, GinBoy2 said:

Uhmm, yes and no.

 

Like many things in Thailand it's hit and miss how any official spins the regulations.

 

We've had a few of these threads, and sometimes folks sail through with nothing, then there is a spectrum of the letter from the Amphur to Mom scribbling something on a cocktail napkin.

 

I had the extreme case, where I didn't even know I needed anything, and it took Mom, son and me on a video call with immigration to get them to finally let us board our flight.

 

Play safe, get the letter from the Amphur just in case.

 

This is one of those rare cases where I'm actually on board with Thai authorities. Trans national child abduction by a parent, and worse still child trafficking are all too real, so the more safeguards the better in my book

When I make a post on here I make sure I speak from experience. I myself, and a myriad of others I know, have never needed a letter from a local district office.

 

In fact, talking to many people recently, this is the first we had ever heard of it.

 

I had a letter from mother of child once and was not asked for it. I even offered it up and was told "no problem".

Puchooay, in this case your 'experience' does not air on the side of caution, hence the advice 'could' cause unnecessary complications for a parent traveling internationally with their child (when without the mother). 

 

The advice offered by Ginboy is flawless [Play safe, get the letter from the Amphur just in case].

 

Personally, I've sailed through without so much as a raised eyebrow, both when my son was 3 (traveling to Singapore) and when 4 (to the UK)

- on both occasions my Wife was not able to make join us on the trip

- on both occasions I had an a signed letter (by the mother), but not notarized (by the local Amphur) letter of consent from the mother, with a signed copy of the mothers passport

- on both occasions my Wife hung around the airport (after waving us through the security check point) just incase of immigration complications, once through immigration I called my Wife and gave her the 'all clear'.

 

To avoid any complication, I should have ensured I had a 'letter of Consent to travel abroad', signed by the mother, witnessed by the local Amphur office and notarized. 

 

Two of my friends (both British) encountered difficulties upon departure, one a couple of years ago, and one just 4 months ago. It took a phone call to their Wife to assure Immigration of parental consent to travel.

Both were prevented from leaving until Immigration had spoken with the 'other parent' (the Mother), both were very nearly prevented from leaving. 

 

 

The Topic is discussed fairly often here. 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/forum/96-family-and-children/

 

The advice I always give is: a

1) Have the full 'Letter of Consent for a minor to Travel abroad' (signed / notarized by the Amphur official)

- if you don't have the letter of consent

2) Have the Mother (or other legal parent) escort you to the Airport, wait in departures so that Immigration can call upon the mother just incase they rase the issue. 

- if 'mother' (or other legal parent) cannot escort you and you don't have the letter (signed / notarized by the Amphur official),

3) Ensure the 'mother' (or other legal parent) is readily available by phone and you have something written even if not notarized, also with a signed copy of the 'mothers' passport to accompany the 'document your wife wrote' (something is better than nothing if stopped and checked). 

 

 

Here is a copy of the letter I used... 

 

 

Parental Consent Letter - Dec 2017.docx

Edited December 9, 2019 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

 

1 hour ago, sanemax said:

Thanks for the info .

So, all you guys who cannot take your Children out of Thailand because the mother will not allow it , just go to either Swampy or DM and jump on a flight with no questions asked about why the kid has no entry stamp and why you havent been to court to gain official permission  from the mother .

  Its that simple and easy 

 

It's not illegal to take your Child out of Thailand without the Mothers permission, however.... 

 

Thailand is a signatory of the Hague convention and since 2012 has signed "The enactment of the International Civil Cooperation on the Breach of Rights of Custody Act, B.E. 2555 (2012), also known as the Thailand Child Abduction Act, on April 9, 2013, provides a legal platform to support the intentions of the Hague Abduction Convention.

 

The act provides custodial parents with a civil remedy, specifically the right to make a claim against the other parent to return a child back to the child’s habitual residence"

 

https://www.tilleke.com/resources/thailand-child-abduction-act-legal-recourse-parents

 

 

Thus, if Thailand is your child's habitual residence, taking your child out of Thailand without the mothers permission, without intent to return to Thailand, could impact your custody claims if a custody battle were to ensue. 

 

Thus in contradiction to sanemax's comment - Yes, its possible to take your child out of Thailand, considering Immigration let so much / many slip through the net. Yet, are you prepared to compromise your long term parental rights should a custody battle ensure?

 

Get custody first. 

 

---------

 

But this thread is simply about 'is a letter of permission needed from the mother before traveling with a child (without the mother)' - Short answer - Yes, get the letter. 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by richard_smith237

[sanemax]

13 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

It's not illegal to take your Child out of Thailand without the Mothers permission, however.... 

 

Thailand is a signatory of the Hague convention and since 2012 has signed "The enactment of the International Civil Cooperation on the Breach of Rights of Custody Act, B.E. 2555 (2012), also known as the Thailand Child Abduction Act, on April 9, 2013, provides a legal platform to support the intentions of the Hague Abduction Convention.

 

The act provides custodial parents with a civil remedy, specifically the right to make a claim against the other parent to return a child back to the child’s habitual residence"

 

https://www.tilleke.com/resources/thailand-child-abduction-act-legal-recourse-parents

 

 

Thus, if Thailand is your child's habitual residence, taking your child out of Thailand without the mothers permission, without intent to return to Thailand, could impact your custody claims if a custody battle were to ensue. 

 

Thus in contradiction to sanemax's comment - Yes, its possible to take your child out of Thailand, considering Immigration let so much / many slip through the net. Yet, are you prepared to compromise your long term parental rights should a custody battle ensure?

 

Get custody first. 

 

---------

 

But this thread is simply about 'is a letter of permission needed from the mother before traveling with a child (without the mother)' - Short answer - Yes, get the letter. 

 

 

Much depends on whether you are married or not .

If you are not married and have no court permission   , then you have no parental rights and taking the child away abroad  from its Mother would considered to be Child abduction

[richard_smith237]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Much depends on whether you are married or not .

If you are not married and have no court permission   , then you have no parental rights and taking the child away abroad  from its Mother would considered to be Child abduction

 

Agreed...  if the parents were not married at the time of Birth the Child does not have a legitimate Father (i.e. has not had the (fathers) name placed on the Childs Birth Registration Document.

 

However, post birth legitimization can also be achieved through Subsequent Marriage and process of legitimization, or through Registration on Application of a Biological Father (without marriage - consent must be given by the mother), or by Judgement of the Court. 

 

A parent must have legal parental rights to travel legally with their child.

 

 

[UKresonant]

Last March I had copies of his Birth Cert(s),( as advised by an officer at BKK) and a print out of his trip summary, on which the wife had written "I give consent for this trip......" contact tel. No. etc.

The consent was not asked for, but the airline was well briefed, and he is listed as a co-traveller in my FF membership with the carrier.

Both passports shown at check-in (no online check-in), exited at BKK using his Thai passport, used UK passport for the rest of the trip.

Departing the UK show both passports, so they can log out of e-borders, then used the Thai passport for the rest of the trip...

He was 11 on that trip, and would explain the trip quite well, if the kid was very young I would be more inclined  to get a more formal format of permission.

If you have any transit points, where you may have to exit for a stop-over or even to change planes where no transfer, well worth checking their requirements.

Edited December 9, 2019 by UKresonant

[UKresonant]

On 12/29/2015 at 11:37 PM, Danielsiam said:

and I would like to know also, it's possible I back to Thailand with the EU passport of my kid at the Thai Immigration, & don't show the Thai passport.., then in future, I can go again outside of Thailand with the EU passport of my daughter with hassle things ?

I think that would cause a lot more problems than it would solve! ????

Edited December 9, 2019 by UKresonant

[Catkiwi]

On 12/29/2015 at 11:40 PM, Satcommlee said:

If the mother comes to the airport and can be summoned to the immigration desk then thats about as good as it gets, make sure you have the birth certificate etc..

But your daughter should enter/exit Thailand on her Thai passport, and enter/exit EU on her EU passport.

He already said the Mother won't go with them . Apart from that, good luck getting as far as immigration if you haven't checked in for a flight..Seriously, please read and comprehend, before issuing ill informed advice.

[Catkiwi]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agreed...  if the parents were not married at the time of Birth the Child does not have a legitimate Father (i.e. has not had the (fathers) name placed on the Childs Birth Registration Document.

 

However, post birth legitimization can also be achieved through Subsequent Marriage and process of legitimization, or through Registration on Application of a Biological Father (without marriage - consent must be given by the mother), or by Judgement of the Court. 

 

A parent must have legal parental rights to travel legally with their child.

 

 

If the Father is registered on the birth certificate, for which a passport copy is required, that is proof of legitimisation. Therefore, gives the Father the right to have his child travel out of Thailand with him, so I have been told....

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

If the Father is registered on the birth certificate, for which a passport copy is required, that is proof of legitimisation. Therefore, gives the Father the right to have his child travel out of Thailand with him, so I have been told....

That is incorrect , 

[Catkiwi]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That is incorrect , 

And?

[sanemax]

12 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

And?

Nothing else , that was all I wanted to say 

[richard_smith237]

24 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

He already said the Mother won't go with them . Apart from that, good luck getting as far as immigration if you haven't checked in for a flight..Seriously, please read and comprehend, before issuing ill informed advice.

(Ok so the mother wouldn't be present in this case). In other cases if no documentation has been signed and the Immigration Officers questions the father, having the mother present within the airport (on the other side of the security check in) immediately resolves a sticky situation. 

 

In this case, the Immigration office can interview the Mother (i.e. by leaving their desk and passing through the security checkpoint with the father and child). 

 

This information while not wholly pertinent for the Op may be useful to other parents when one of them is traveling alone with their child. 

 

That said: best course of action remains - Get the Letter of premising to travel (or whatever its called exactly), signed and notarised at the Amphur and any potential hassle is removed. 

[Catkiwi]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

(Ok so the mother wouldn't be present in this case). In other cases if no documentation has been signed and the Immigration Officers questions the father, having the mother present within the airport (on the other side of the security check in) immediately resolves a sticky situation. 

 

In this case, the Immigration office can interview the Mother (i.e. by leaving their desk and passing through the security checkpoint with the father and child). 

 

This information while not wholly pertinent for the Op may be useful to other parents when one of them is traveling alone with their child. 

 

That said: best course of action remains - Get the Letter of premising to travel (or whatever its called exactly), signed and notarised at the Amphur and any potential hassle is removed. 

Thanks Sanemax & Richard for your insights...I just can't see a father and kid (even if they had been allowed to be checked in by the airline) standing at immigration and demanding that someone go back to the security check point to collect the mother to give her permission. Maybe, just maybe that is possible but I would put money on it that there is no way that would happen. Please publicly tar and feather me if I am wrong!!

[sanemax]

Dual nationality is recognised by the Thai government. Parents with custody of a child have an automatic right to remove that child from Thailand. This includes for the purposes of holidays. There is no requirement for a special application. In principle the agreement of both parents is required for a child to leave the country. However, this may not be strictly applied by the authorities at ports of exit. There is no law requiring a left-behind parent to give authority in writing to the other parent. The child would not normally be stopped from leaving the country unless an immigration official had concerns about travel or legal irregularities.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366730/Child_Abduction_-_thailand.pdf

[blackcab]

40 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

If the Father is registered on the birth certificate, for which a passport copy is required, that is proof of legitimisation. Therefore, gives the Father the right to have his child travel out of Thailand with him, so I have been told....

 

You are completely incorrect in almost everything you have said.

 

I accept that when you posted you were trying to help others. Now you know your post is absolutely incorrect please do not post the same factually incorrect information again.

 

As I am sure you can appreciate the legitimacy of a child is a most serious matter and it is not something where incorrect advice should be repeated.

[richard_smith237]

20 minutes ago, Catkiwi said:

Thanks Sanemax & Richard for your insights...I just can't see a father and kid (even if they had been allowed to be checked in by the airline) standing at immigration and demanding that someone go back to the security check point to collect the mother to give her permission. Maybe, just maybe that is possible but I would put money on it that there is no way that would happen. Please publicly tar and feather me if I am wrong!!

No need for the tarring & feathering:  As its Thailand, we just don't know with any certainty what can or cannot happen. Immigration blow hot and cold on many issues. 

 

I do know of two friends who only managed to pass through Immigration with their Child after Immigration were satisfied following a phone-call with the Childs mother. It was a hassle and they had to go into a separate room (Immigration office), Immigration also wanted to talk to the child separately (not fun for the child or the father) - it was an unnecessary ball ache for them, especially after I'd advised my friend of the need for the letter !! (he was just lazy to get it!)

 

Personally, I was not even questioned when traveling alone with my son (twice).

 

If the mother is present at the Airport and the Immigration officer questions the Father, I'm sure they would be more conducive to letting the Father and child pass immigration if the response was "the mother is just 20 meters away in departures, lets talk with her"...  

I've not know of this happening of course, so my guess on whether or not this is feasible is as good as yours. Nevertheless, when I travelled alone with my Son, I asked my Wife (who'd dropped us off) to stay in the airport until I passed Immigration just incase. 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Dual nationality is recognised by the Thai government. Parents with custody of a child have an automatic right to remove that child from Thailand. This includes for the purposes of holidays. There is no requirement for a special application. In principle the agreement of both parents is required for a child to leave the country. However, this may not be strictly applied by the authorities at ports of exit. There is no law requiring a left-behind parent to give authority in writing to the other parent. The child would not normally be stopped from leaving the country unless an immigration official had concerns about travel or legal irregularities.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366730/Child_Abduction_-_thailand.pdf

 

The key part there is not permanently removing the child from their habitual residence (i.e. Intent to return should be shown - return ticket etc). 

Intent to permanently remove a child from their habitual residence may impact custody proceedings in Thailand and elsewhere *(unless additional mitigating circumstances are presented). 

Edited December 9, 2019 by richard_smith237