Inquiry: UK soldiers who fought in Iraq may face prosecution

[SgtRock]

Seastallion, on 04 Jan 2016 - 20:03, said:Seastallion, on 04 Jan 2016 - 20:03, said:

It has become apparent that all the Brit soldiers (or those that want to appear to be Brit soldiers) contributing to this discussion are severely missing the point and the message of the OP. Nobody is talking about battle deaths. Nobody is talking about heat of the moment, instant reaction deaths. The investigations are looking at wrongful deaths, and it appears (is alleged) that there were over 200 of them. It's got nothing to do with AlQaeda, ISIS, or the Taliban being nasty guys. Nothing. It's got nothing to do with your average Tommy being a brave chap. It's got nothing to do with Muslims taking over Europe. It has nothing to do with 9/11. It is all to do with allegations of murder or wrongful killing and torture.

If you think there should be no law with regard to wrongful killing or torture, take it up with the UN.

For the benefit of the uneducated and the troglodytes that actually liked your posts on this thread, it is YOU that doesn’t get it.

This is all about public funding to the tune of £ 5 million a year that is now being cut off. The reason it is being cut off is because the whole thing is a farce.

A 5 year inquiry that has produced a single Soldier being fined the huge sum of £ 3000. Read about it here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10517784/Iraq-abuse-investigation-just-one-soldier-fined-in-three-years.html

The only other case that has made it to court was thrown out of court and legal proceeding launched against the Law Firm.

Read about it here.

Quote

Lawyers who wasted millions of public money pursuing false claims that British troops murdered and tortured Iraqi detainees should now face disciplinary action, senior Government figures have suggested.

Ministers condemned the “shameful” conduct of solicitors who brought the claims, which were yesterday dismissed as “deliberate lies” by a £31million, five year inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11300398/Al-Sweady-lawyers-should-now-face-disciplinary-action.html

Case against the Law Firm involved is now gathering pace.

Quote

The prominent London law firm Leigh Day has been referred to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal (SDT) to answer complaints about its handling of legal challenges brought by Iraqi detainees against the Ministry of Defence.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/05/law-firm-leigh-day-solicitors-disciplinary-tribunal-al-sweady-inquiry

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

Edited January 8, 2016 by SgtRock

[thaibeachlovers]

Seastallion, on 04 Jan 2016 - 20:03, said:Seastallion, on 04 Jan 2016 - 20:03, said:

It has become apparent that all the Brit soldiers (or those that want to appear to be Brit soldiers) contributing to this discussion are severely missing the point and the message of the OP. Nobody is talking about battle deaths. Nobody is talking about heat of the moment, instant reaction deaths. The investigations are looking at wrongful deaths, and it appears (is alleged) that there were over 200 of them. It's got nothing to do with AlQaeda, ISIS, or the Taliban being nasty guys. Nothing. It's got nothing to do with your average Tommy being a brave chap. It's got nothing to do with Muslims taking over Europe. It has nothing to do with 9/11. It is all to do with allegations of murder or wrongful killing and torture.

If you think there should be no law with regard to wrongful killing or torture, take it up with the UN.

For the benefit of the uneducated and the troglodytes that actually liked your posts on this thread, it is YOU that doesn’t get it.

This is all about public funding to the tune of £ 5 million a year that is now being cut off. The reason it is being cut off is because the whole thing is a farce.

A 5 year inquiry that has produced a single Soldier being fined the huge sum of £ 3000. Read about it here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10517784/Iraq-abuse-investigation-just-one-soldier-fined-in-three-years.html

The only other case that has made it to court was thrown out of court and legal proceeding launched against the Law Firm.

Read about it here.

Quote

Lawyers who wasted millions of public money pursuing false claims that British troops murdered and tortured Iraqi detainees should now face disciplinary action, senior Government figures have suggested.

Ministers condemned the “shameful” conduct of solicitors who brought the claims, which were yesterday dismissed as “deliberate lies” by a £31million, five year inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11300398/Al-Sweady-lawyers-should-now-face-disciplinary-action.html

Case against the Law Firm involved is now gathering pace.

Quote

The prominent London law firm Leigh Day has been referred to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal (SDT) to answer complaints about its handling of legal challenges brought by Iraqi detainees against the Ministry of Defence.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/05/law-firm-leigh-day-solicitors-disciplinary-tribunal-al-sweady-inquiry

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

Shouldn't your username be STAFFSgt Rock, going by your avatar?

[SgtRock]

thaibeachlovers, on 08 Jan 2016 - 10:55, said:thaibeachlovers, on 08 Jan 2016 - 10:55, said:thaibeachlovers, on 08 Jan 2016 - 10:55, said:thaibeachlovers, on 08 Jan 2016 - 10:55, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:

For the benefit of the uneducated and the troglodytes that actually liked your posts on this thread, it is YOU that doesn’t get it.

This is all about public funding to the tune of £ 5 million a year that is now being cut off. The reason it is being cut off is because the whole thing is a farce.

A 5 year inquiry that has produced a single Soldier being fined the huge sum of £ 3000. Read about it here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10517784/Iraq-abuse-investigation-just-one-soldier-fined-in-three-years.html

The only other case that has made it to court was thrown out of court and legal proceeding launched against the Law Firm.

Read about it here.

QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote

Lawyers who wasted millions of public money pursuing false claims that British troops murdered and tortured Iraqi detainees should now face disciplinary action, senior Government figures have suggested.

Ministers condemned the “shameful” conduct of solicitors who brought the claims, which were yesterday dismissed as “deliberate lies” by a £31million, five year inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11300398/Al-Sweady-lawyers-should-now-face-disciplinary-action.html

Case against the Law Firm involved is now gathering pace.

QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote

The prominent London law firm Leigh Day has been referred to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal (SDT) to answer complaints about its handling of legal challenges brought by Iraqi detainees against the Ministry of Defence.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/05/law-firm-leigh-day-solicitors-disciplinary-tribunal-al-sweady-inquiry

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

Shouldn't your username be STAFFSgt Rock, going by your avatar?

There are no Staff Sgts in the Infantry, it would be Colour Sgt. I could have used WO11 but not sure how many people would have understood it.

Although I did think that you were going to be the 1st to issue a public apology.

Edited January 8, 2016 by SgtRock

[thaibeachlovers]

Shouldn't your username be STAFFSgt Rock, going by your avatar?

There are no Staff Sgts in the Infantry, it would be Colour Sgt. I could have used WO11 but not sure how many people would have understood it.

Although I did think that you were going to be the 1st to issue a public apology.

I guess your army and mine were different beasts then. In mine it went private, lance corporal, corporal, sgt, ssgt, wo2, wo1. No way was your avatar a wo2 in the army I served in.

Big post by SgtRock deleted to allow reply- too many quotes.

[thaibeachlovers]

Shouldn't your username be STAFFSgt Rock, going by your avatar?

There are no Staff Sgts in the Infantry, it would be Colour Sgt. I could have used WO11 but not sure how many people would have understood it.

Although I did think that you were going to be the 1st to issue a public apology.

I guess your army and mine were different beasts then. In mine it went private, lance corporal, corporal, sgt, ssgt, wo2, wo1. No way was your avatar a wo2 in the army I served in.

Big post by SgtRock deleted to allow reply- too many quotes.

PS just to be clear, I'm not saying that you're not correct about colour sgt/ wo2 in the British army infantry, but I wasn't in the British army.

Edited January 8, 2016 by thaibeachlovers

[evadgib]

I wasn't in the British army

Don't worry, most posting here would assume an 1157 inspection was a battlefield tour of Agincourt (1415-near enough innit?) & an MOD 90 was a tank!

Edited January 8, 2016 by evadgib

[Seastallion]

Seastallion, on 04 Jan 2016 - 20:03, said:Seastallion, on 04 Jan 2016 - 20:03, said:

It has become apparent that all the Brit soldiers (or those that want to appear to be Brit soldiers) contributing to this discussion are severely missing the point and the message of the OP. Nobody is talking about battle deaths. Nobody is talking about heat of the moment, instant reaction deaths. The investigations are looking at wrongful deaths, and it appears (is alleged) that there were over 200 of them. It's got nothing to do with AlQaeda, ISIS, or the Taliban being nasty guys. Nothing. It's got nothing to do with your average Tommy being a brave chap. It's got nothing to do with Muslims taking over Europe. It has nothing to do with 9/11. It is all to do with allegations of murder or wrongful killing and torture.

If you think there should be no law with regard to wrongful killing or torture, take it up with the UN.

For the benefit of the uneducated and the troglodytes that actually liked your posts on this thread, it is YOU that doesn’t get it.

This is all about public funding to the tune of £ 5 million a year that is now being cut off. The reason it is being cut off is because the whole thing is a farce.

A 5 year inquiry that has produced a single Soldier being fined the huge sum of £ 3000. Read about it here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10517784/Iraq-abuse-investigation-just-one-soldier-fined-in-three-years.html

The only other case that has made it to court was thrown out of court and legal proceeding launched against the Law Firm.

Read about it here.

Quote

Lawyers who wasted millions of public money pursuing false claims that British troops murdered and tortured Iraqi detainees should now face disciplinary action, senior Government figures have suggested.

Ministers condemned the “shameful” conduct of solicitors who brought the claims, which were yesterday dismissed as “deliberate lies” by a £31million, five year inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11300398/Al-Sweady-lawyers-should-now-face-disciplinary-action.html

Case against the Law Firm involved is now gathering pace.

Quote

The prominent London law firm Leigh Day has been referred to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal (SDT) to answer complaints about its handling of legal challenges brought by Iraqi detainees against the Ministry of Defence.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/05/law-firm-leigh-day-solicitors-disciplinary-tribunal-al-sweady-inquiry

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

Well, no....you still don't get it...it is about allegations of murder of children.

While you appear to be right that the process is a farce, the fact remains that allegations have been made, and those allegations should be investigated.

From your own link....

"The most recent report on its work shows it has 144 cases on its books and only six, or less than one in 20, have been completed.

Two were dropped due to a lack of evidence and two were handed over to military police for more investigation."

So only 6 cases have been completed. There's still potentially 138 murders (or more if groups committed murder) walking free.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Seastallion

[SgtRock]

Well, no....you still don't get it...it is about allegations of murder of children.

While you appear to be right that the process is a farce, the fact remains that allegations have been made, and those allegations should be investigated.

From your own link....

"The most recent report on its work shows it has 144 cases on its books and only six, or less than one in 20, have been completed.

Two were dropped due to a lack of evidence and two were handed over to military police for more investigation."

So only 6 cases have been completed. There's still potentially 138 murders (or more if groups committed murder) walking free.

Let me just remind you of what you said.

Post 04

What's a disgrace? That the British Army has murderers and other types of criminals? Yes, I agree, it's a <deleted> disgrace.

Post 42

Condemnation of murder by British soldiers is not "british hatred" (sic).

Post 74

What gives a squaddy the right to kill an Iraqi child? You're suggesting his right comes from 9/11. Ridiculous.

So give me a name to one of these murderers, child killers, with a link to their current sentence.

You spew out nothing but erroneous, unsubstantiated crap.

Allegations mean jack shit.

[Scott]

The baiting posts had better stop.

You have been warned.

[lostboy]

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

Edited January 8, 2016 by lostboy

[Seastallion]

Let me just remind you of what you said.

Post 04

What's a disgrace? That the British Army has murderers and other types of criminals? Yes, I agree, it's a <deleted> disgrace.

Post 42

Condemnation of murder by British soldiers is not "british hatred" (sic).

Post 74

What gives a squaddy the right to kill an Iraqi child? You're suggesting his right comes from 9/11. Ridiculous.

So give me a name to one of these murderers, child killers, with a link to their current sentence.

You spew out nothing but erroneous, unsubstantiated crap.

Allegations mean jack shit.

Of course I don't have links to any current sentence! Remember your link? From which we got the information that only six allegations have been investigated so far?

Allegations are allegations and MUST be investigated. Dismissing out of hand any serious allegation is a mistake.

The things you've quoted me on do not add to your argument at all.

[lostboy]

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:11, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

Take it up with those that made the decision to send them.

Now do a Michael Jackson and beat it. You are boring me sh!tless.

Can's answer a simple question. Resort to childish banalities. You demand an apology from those who express concern about the possibility of UK soldiers committing war crimes. You seek to absolve any and all such accused. Clearly you are not bored because you provided a response. This whole act is just a deflection.

So I say again - what the hell were UK soldiers doing killing Iraqi people?

If UK soldiers breached international law and committed crimes against humanity, then anyone who interferes with the process of holding them to account must also face consequences. Your type of bully boys with guns are not above the law.

Edited January 8, 2016 by lostboy

[SgtRock]

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:51, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:21, said:

Take it up with those that made the decision to send them.

Now do a Michael Jackson and beat it. You are boring me sh!tless.

Can's answer a simple question. Resort to childish banalities. You demand an apology from those who express concern about the possibility of UK soldiers committing war crimes. You seek to absolve any and all such accused. Clearly you are not bored because you provided a response. This whole act is just a deflection.

So I say again - what the hell were UK soldiers doing killing Iraqi people?

If UK soldiers breached international law and committed crimes against humanity, then anyone who interferes with the process of holding them to account must also face consequences. Your type of bully boys with guns are not above the law.

Cannot stick to the topic.

Quote

Lawyers who wasted millions of public money pursuing false claims that British troops murdered and tortured Iraqi detainees should now face disciplinary action, senior Government figures have suggested.

Ministers condemned the “shameful” conduct of solicitors who brought the claims, which were yesterday dismissed as “deliberate lies” by a £31million, five year inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11300398/Al-Sweady-lawyers-should-now-face-disciplinary-action.html

What part of false claims and disciplinary action did you not understand ?

What part of shameful conduct and deliberate lies did you not understand ?

No one has breached International law or committed crimes against humanity.

The only ones that thought that they were above the law are the lawyers who brought these claims.

Now, for the last time. Pop smoke and disappear troll.

[lostboy]

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:51, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:21, said:

Take it up with those that made the decision to send them.

Now do a Michael Jackson and beat it. You are boring me sh!tless.

Can's answer a simple question. Resort to childish banalities. You demand an apology from those who express concern about the possibility of UK soldiers committing war crimes. You seek to absolve any and all such accused. Clearly you are not bored because you provided a response. This whole act is just a deflection.

So I say again - what the hell were UK soldiers doing killing Iraqi people?

If UK soldiers breached international law and committed crimes against humanity, then anyone who interferes with the process of holding them to account must also face consequences. Your type of bully boys with guns are not above the law.

Cannot stick to the topic.

Quote

Lawyers who wasted millions of public money pursuing false claims that British troops murdered and tortured Iraqi detainees should now face disciplinary action, senior Government figures have suggested.

Ministers condemned the “shameful” conduct of solicitors who brought the claims, which were yesterday dismissed as “deliberate lies” by a £31million, five year inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11300398/Al-Sweady-lawyers-should-now-face-disciplinary-action.html

What part of false claims and disciplinary action did you not understand ?

What part of shameful conduct and deliberate lies did you not understand ?

No one has breached International law or committed crimes against humanity.

The only ones that thought that they were above the law are the lawyers who brought these claims.

Now, for the last time. Pop smoke and disappear troll.

Keep your right wing rag. What part of false claims etc etc don't I understand. Well the part where it relates to the topic, that's what part. The OP referenced the Iraqi Historic Allegations Team (IHAT) Inquiry which is due to report in 2019. You however are acting as a poorly scripted mouthpiece for the MOD who are covering their massively exposed backsides by hurling abuse and referring to 'ambulance chasing British law firms' http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35211336 Throwing around mud from other inquiries, specifically from the Al Sweady inquiry in response to the OP is cowardly. Trying to make believe that outcomes from this entirely different event has any bearing on the OP is cowardly. Hurling abuse at people who challenge your lies and mis-information is cowardly.

What is your purpose in excusing thuggery? What do you hope to gain by acting as an apologist for criminal acts? You believe these people are above the law?

You still do not answer the charge of what the hell were UK soldiers doing in Iraq killing Iraqi people. Instead you continue with infantile expressions and seem to think you have some authority about who can post and what they can post on TVF. You don't get to decide when it is the last time Sunshine.

Edited January 8, 2016 by lostboy

[lostboy]

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 15:39, said:

Keep your right wing rag. What part of false claims etc etc don't I understand. Well the part where it relates to the topic, that's what part. The OP referenced the Iraqi Historic Allegations Team (IHAT) Inquiry which is due to report in 2019. You however are acting as a poorly scripted mouthpiece for the MOD who are covering their massively exposed backsides by hurling abuse and referring to 'ambulance chasing British law firms' http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35211336 Throwing around mud from other inquiries, specifically from the Al Sweady inquiry in response to the OP is cowardly. Trying to make believe that outcomes from this entirely different event has any bearing on the OP is cowardly. Hurling abuse at people who challenge your lies and mis-information is cowardly.

What is your purpose in excusing thuggery? What do you hope to gain by acting as an apologist for criminal acts? You believe these people are above the law?

You still do not answer the charge of what the hell were UK soldiers doing in Iraq killing Iraqi people. Instead you continue with infantile expressions and seem to think you have some authority about who can post and what they can post on TVF. You don't get to decide when it is the last time Sunshine.

Left wing rag 2 days ago

Quote

The prominent London law firm Leigh Day has been referred to the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal (SDT) to answer complaints about its handling of legal challenges brought by Iraqi detainees against the Ministry of Defence

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/05/law-firm-leigh-day-solicitors-disciplinary-tribunal-al-sweady-inquiry

All part of the original IHAT investigation that is now getting its £ 5 Million a year public funding pulled for being a farce.

So just where you get mis-information, thuggery, apologist for criminal acts, people being above the law, killing of Iraqi people from is beyond comprehension.

I suggest that you seek councilling as you clearly have some sort of mental disorder.

UK governments own website on IHAT https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/iraq-historic-allegations-team-ihat Going from strength to strength I see.

You continue to attempt to associate Al Sweady with IHAT. So the Guardian, a paper I read and respect reports on the MOD attempt to stitch up some lawyers it doesn't like.

Your personal attacks mark you as a boor. That is nothing in the face of your cowardice in not answering the question about what UK soldiers were doing killing Iraqi people in the first place. Nothing you say on this issue has any credence. A few minutes research reveals a rather shabby and shoddy attempt at the vilification of people who demand accountability. A demand supported by the UK government in specific statements on this issue on the website linked above.

Got the guts to argue the issue or will you be throwing around more irrelevant mis-information in an attempt to slander those with real concerns.

Edited January 8, 2016 by lostboy

[norfolkandchance]

Was SgtRock in the RAF and didn't get promoted

[evadgib]

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:11, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

Take it up with those that made the decision to send them.

Now do a Michael Jackson and beat it. You are boring me sh!tless.

If ever there was a wrong thread I think you just found it:

Mike Jackson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[seedy]

The two Posters involved in a Bickering Fest should be aware of the Forum Rules -

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

Civil, Respectful discussion - no Problem. Continue and receive a Posting holiday

[SgtRock]

evadgib, on 08 Jan 2016 - 16:28, said:evadgib, on 08 Jan 2016 - 16:28, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:21, said:SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:21, said:

Take it up with those that made the decision to send them.

Now do a Michael Jackson and beat it. You are boring me sh!tless.

If ever there was a wrong thread I think you just found it:

Mike Jackson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember him very well from the Falklands in 82.

He wore a green beret in those days.

Edited January 8, 2016 by SgtRock

[Rancid]

The real problem are all these wars of aggression, and that is a political issue rather than a military one.

In a defensive war no one cares what you do as protecting your country and people. However with invading other countries politicians seem to expect soldiers to be perfect gentlemen.

The politicians ordering these invasions are the ones that should be held accountable, not the soldiers being sent to essentially wage war around and amongst civilians.

[nontabury]

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

In war people unfortunately get killed. The soldiers concerned were ordered by their political masters to go into war. So far no British soldier has been convicted of any crime,therefore there is no need for any of them to apologize.

The only people who should be convicted of any war crimes should be their political masters,especially Tony WMD Blair who ordered these soldiers into war, resulting in many of them being fatefully wounded.

You'r point regarding the destabilizing of the region I fully agree with.

[Seastallion]

The real problem are all these wars of aggression, and that is a political issue rather than a military one.

In a defensive war no one cares what you do as protecting your country and people. However with invading other countries politicians seem to expect soldiers to be perfect gentlemen.

The politicians ordering these invasions are the ones that should be held accountable, not the soldiers being sent to essentially wage war around and amongst civilians.

I don't think "perfect gentlemen" is expected of or by anyone during a war.

However, many people, myself included, do not expect a soldier who is part of an invading force to take out his aggression on civilians.

I agree that the politicians should be held to account.

Interesting take on when one is being defensive. I suppose that goes for all theaters?

[Seastallion]

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

In war people unfortunately get killed. The soldiers concerned were ordered by their political masters to go into war. So far no British soldier has been convicted of any crime,therefore there is no need for any of them to apologize.

The only people who should be convicted of any war crimes should be their political masters,especially Tony WMD Blair who ordered these soldiers into war, resulting in many of them being fatefully wounded.

You'r point regarding the destabilizing of the region I fully agree with.

I don't think any politician ordered any women or children wantonly killed.

[lostboy]

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

In war people unfortunately get killed. The soldiers concerned were ordered by their political masters to go into war. So far no British soldier has been convicted of any crime,therefore there is no need for any of them to apologize.

The only people who should be convicted of any war crimes should be their political masters,especially Tony WMD Blair who ordered these soldiers into war, resulting in many of them being fatefully wounded.

You'r point regarding the destabilizing of the region I fully agree with.

The era of the "Good" war is over I think. Personally, I believe that is a good thing. But the traditions that went with conflicts that were seen as just and necessary do not apply to the new environment. I doubt anyone would be asking questions or making allegations if the Coalition of the Willing had won the Iraq War - and by winning, I would mean that the strategy objective of establishing a sustainable democratic country - as I remember it stated by GW - was achieved. The military objective was achieved within days. The strategic objective failed utterly.

I don't seem to recall seeing anything about allegations of misconduct from WWII. Apart from the losers of course. But not from the Allied side. There may have been some. Of course there would have been trials and punishments by military courts for misbehaviour and infractions but the whole war crimes, torture thing wasn't a feature, at least publicly, of that "Good" war.

What we have now is the execution of military conflict as a legal construct. Such was the basis for the Iraq invasion. Such is the way military actions are executed and 'rules of engagement' devised. This is also how conduct is being and will continue to be judged i.e. by the legal framework that governs such conflicts. A very American way of organising things I think.

Use of military contractors, asymmetrical warfare, communications and other technologies all are impacting on the way war is managed and administered. For the apolitical fighting soldier, it becomes difficult to apply a moral compass in the face of uncertainty so they would fall back on comforts of training and tradition. A rational person would understand that these and other difficulties are faced by participants in modern warfare. I presume many books and essays are written about them. My interest in military history stops at the end of the Classical Age, so I don't really know what the current trends are. However, I do believe that the legalistic approach to international conflict mandates a governance structure that allows for challenges and investigations of actions right down to the individual level. It is the responsibility of each participating government to ensure that international law is applied and justice is done and seen to be done. International law provides protections to both opponent fighters and civilians and those rights do not get removed at the whim of an individual.

The UK Government has to be careful because the Iraq War was a "Bad" War. It must investigate all allegations. It must develop policies to prevent a repetition of such failed conflicts. The MOD protecting its turf is not a sufficient excuse to avoid accountability. Their tactics against the law firm in the Al Sheady case are scurrilous.

It is doubtful that any political level people will be held accountable for the Iraq conflict because of the current global power structure. I look forward tot he day when circumstances allow for full accountability at all levels for the Iraq War/Second Gulf War or what ever terminology you want to use.

Edited January 8, 2016 by lostboy

[SgtRock]

Seastallion, on 08 Jan 2016 - 17:32, said:

nontabury, on 08 Jan 2016 - 17:15, said:

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:11, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 08:33, said:

I trust that we can now see a long serious of posts, apologising for the erroneous, libilous and defamatory claims of murdering, child killing Soldiers.

I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

In war people unfortunately get killed. The soldiers concerned were ordered by their political masters to go into war. So far no British soldier has been convicted of any crime,therefore there is no need for any of them to apologize.

The only people who should be convicted of any war crimes should be their political masters,especially Tony WMD Blair who ordered these soldiers into war, resulting in many of them being fatefully wounded.

You'r point regarding the destabilizing of the region I fully agree with.

I don't think any politician ordered any women or children wantonly killed.

There you go again. You just cannot help yourself.

Please provide proof that any woman or children were wantonly killed by members of the UK Armed Forces.

[Seastallion]

Seastallion, on 08 Jan 2016 - 17:32, said:

nontabury, on 08 Jan 2016 - 17:15, said:

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 14:11, said:I will look for that around the same time that I see UK soldiers apologise for killing Iraqi people.

Remind me, what justification did any UK soldier have for being in Iraq? What justification did they have for killing Iraqi people?

The fact that this military adventure by soldiers of a country with absolutely no business being there involved alleged war crimes, misdeeds and criminal acts of torture is grossly shameful to humanity. And to top it off, no strategic objective was ever gained by these armed foreigners. This violent adventurism just further destabilised an already fragile region. And these people now have the hide to lash out and abuse anyone who calls for some measure of accountability.

In war people unfortunately get killed. The soldiers concerned were ordered by their political masters to go into war. So far no British soldier has been convicted of any crime,therefore there is no need for any of them to apologize.

The only people who should be convicted of any war crimes should be their political masters,especially Tony WMD Blair who ordered these soldiers into war, resulting in many of them being fatefully wounded.

You'r point regarding the destabilizing of the region I fully agree with.

I don't think any politician ordered any women or children wantonly killed.

There you go again. You just cannot help yourself.

Please provide proof that any woman or children were wantonly killed by members of the UK Armed Forces.

Please keep up. Please try to comprehend what this thread is about. It's about allegations, and, quite frankly, some of them would be quite credible allegations. Do you really think no Brit grunt ever committed a war crime?

I'll give you a piece of advice before you bury yourself any deeper....proving that no crimes were committed is going to be a harder job than proving some were committed.

Pick your battles, Sarge. It's good war advice.

[SgtRock]

Seastallion, on 08 Jan 2016 - 18:57, said:Seastallion, on 08 Jan 2016 - 18:57, said:

SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 18:01, said:SgtRock, on 08 Jan 2016 - 18:01, said:

There you go again. You just cannot help yourself.

Please provide proof that any woman or children were wantonly killed by members of the UK Armed Forces.

Please keep up. Please try to comprehend what this thread is about. It's about allegations, and, quite frankly, some of them would be quite credible allegations. Do you really think no Brit grunt ever committed a war crime?

I'll give you a piece of advice before you bury yourself any deeper....proving that no crimes were committed is going to be a harder job than proving some were committed.

Pick your battles, Sarge. It's good war advice.

Yes, its about allegations. An inquiry that has so far cost £ 31 Million has seen no one charged, let alone convicted of murder. Here is an allegation that will flutter your heart. So far, over 200 Muslims in the UK have been convicted of sexual abuse of youngsters over the last 3 years. So it must be fair to allege that every Muslim in the UK is a paedophile. Fair comparison ? Or how about another in vogue comparison. Is every legal gun owner in the US a mass murderer ?

Therein lies the problem. I highlighted the relevant posts earlier. You are claiming that UK Soldiers have committed murder, killed babies and committed all sorts of crimes. A 5 year investigation has turned up nothing. It only hit the news again in January because its £ 5 million a year from public funds is being cut off. The gravy train is skidding to a halt.

Your advice is flawed. You have that exactly the wrong way round. IF, any crimes have been committed, the wall of silence will be deafening. That might be why £ 31 Million has so far produced 1 conviction for a £ 3000 fine. It certainly has not produced any murderers or baby killers, contrary to your constant procrastinations.

Now, if you manage to get a name for someone who gets convicted for murder. Feel free to name and shame him and I will join you in condemning that individual. To claim that Soldiers of the British Army are murders and child killers, with absolutely nothing to back it up, quite frankly, makes you look rather foolish.

Pick my battles ? Why, what would you know about it ? Have you ever been in battle ?

Edited January 8, 2016 by SgtRock

[evadgib]

...reminds me some of the numptys outside Greenham in its heyday

[SgtRock]

evadgib, on 08 Jan 2016 - 21:44, said:

...reminds me some of the numptys outside Greenham in its heyday

Shit were you there in 81 ? We must have met. I still remember the eager beavers and the shit throwers.

[SgtRock]

lostboy, on 08 Jan 2016 - 17:58, said:

nontabury, on 08 Jan 2016 - 17:15, said:

In war people unfortunately get killed. The soldiers concerned were ordered by their political masters to go into war. So far no British soldier has been convicted of any crime,therefore there is no need for any of them to apologize.

The only people who should be convicted of any war crimes should be their political masters,especially Tony WMD Blair who ordered these soldiers into war, resulting in many of them being fatefully wounded.

You'r point regarding the destabilizing of the region I fully agree with.

The era of the "Good" war is over I think. Personally, I believe that is a good thing. But the traditions that went with conflicts that were seen as just and necessary do not apply to the new environment. I doubt anyone would be asking questions or making allegations if the Coalition of the Willing had won the Iraq War - and by winning, I would mean that the strategy objective of establishing a sustainable democratic country - as I remember it stated by GW - was achieved. The military objective was achieved within days. The strategic objective failed utterly.

I don't seem to recall seeing anything about allegations of misconduct from WWII. Apart from the losers of course. But not from the Allied side. There may have been some. Of course there would have been trials and punishments by military courts for misbehaviour and infractions but the whole war crimes, torture thing wasn't a feature, at least publicly, of that "Good" war.

What we have now is the execution of military conflict as a legal construct. Such was the basis for the Iraq invasion. Such is the way military actions are executed and 'rules of engagement' devised. This is also how conduct is being and will continue to be judged i.e. by the legal framework that governs such conflicts. A very American way of organising things I think.

Use of military contractors, asymmetrical warfare, communications and other technologies all are impacting on the way war is managed and administered. For the apolitical fighting soldier, it becomes difficult to apply a moral compass in the face of uncertainty so they would fall back on comforts of training and tradition. A rational person would understand that these and other difficulties are faced by participants in modern warfare. I presume many books and essays are written about them. My interest in military history stops at the end of the Classical Age, so I don't really know what the current trends are. However, I do believe that the legalistic approach to international conflict mandates a governance structure that allows for challenges and investigations of actions right down to the individual level. It is the responsibility of each participating government to ensure that international law is applied and justice is done and seen to be done. International law provides protections to both opponent fighters and civilians and those rights do not get removed at the whim of an individual.

The UK Government has to be careful because the Iraq War was a "Bad" War. It must investigate all allegations. It must develop policies to prevent a repetition of such failed conflicts. The MOD protecting its turf is not a sufficient excuse to avoid accountability. Their tactics against the law firm in the Al Sheady case are scurrilous.

It is doubtful that any political level people will be held accountable for the Iraq conflict because of the current global power structure. I look forward tot he day when circumstances allow for full accountability at all levels for the Iraq War/Second Gulf War or what ever terminology you want to use.

Please feel free to educate myself and the Thai Visa members on what your verbosity has got to do with the topic.