Questions about Thai dowry - and what else to ask

[elgenon]

It sounds like her parents take good care of her. I assume after marriage they will stop and you will take over.

[thaiduncankk]

Some of the answers here are just plain pathetic, and some are just out and out lies.

It makes me think that the guys that answer like this got the el cheapo version (read hooker, low class, gold digger type; maybe akin to trailer trash in my neck of the woods) instead of a real wife or they didn't get nothing at all but sitting around drinking themselves into lonely oblivion... Good luck with that!

Discuss it with your girl and come to a mutual agreement if it comes up at all...

I will pay ~300kthb when I marry, the parents will take care of the wedding costs. That's nothing compared to a western wedding. diamond ring, and marrying a much older fatter smellier feminist.

A friend of mine that married into a much richer family than I put 1mthb down at the alter which was all returned in the end.

It's different depending on many circumstances.

You are right in one way, over there you are marrying a much older fatter smellier feminist, over here the roles are reversed, so maybe that explains the sinsod ?

[Guitar God]

A couple of things:

1) It's not a dowry, it's a brideprice. Everyone always makes the mistake of calling it a dowry. It's not. A dowry is given by the bride's family to the groom's family traditionally as a means of providing for the added expense of the groom's family taking on another mouth to feed. A brideprice is paid by the groom's family (or groom) to compensate the bride's family for the loss of labor they'll experience once their daughter moves away. Or at least that's how it goes in theory. I'm willing to bet that about 30 seconds after the first person thought of either they realized it was a money-making idea and it has been ever since.

2) Why are you so willing to abide by her cultural norms and give up yours? I read often here about people saying "Well, when you marry outside of your culture you have to make adjustments." But if you are marrying outside of your culture doesn't it logically follow that the person you're marrying is also marrying outside of THEIR culture? And where is it written that Westerners must automatically abide by customs that would not be tolerated in their own societies? Your culture is JUST AS IMPORTANT as hers.

3) Far too many foreigners fall for this 'It's an integral part of Thai culture' or 'Sin sod is a way of showing thanks for raising such a good Buddhist girl.' Nonsense. If that's the case why is it that those guys who marry some bar girl from soi Cowboy are asked for an arm and a leg? Tell me, just where exactly do 'good Buddhist' and 'soi Cowboy' meet?

It sounds to me like you are willing to agree to just about anything they ask for which, I'm afraid, is just going to lead to trouble. If you really love this girl then put your foot down. You will provide her with a good life and I'm sure you will also contribute to her family's financial stability at one time or another. But don't let yourself be taken for a ride.

1) This is Thailand and this is what Thais do. Not all Thai men pay sinsod to marry Thai women in Thailand but every single married Thai guy that I know of has.

Not all western men who marry Thai women pay sinsod. I would put the percentages for both groups that do at between 60-75%.

2) I'm guessing most Thai women in the U.S. or Europe who wed a westerner, don't have their groom pay sinsod, Because,,, they're not in Thailand.

3) As mentioned earlier, sinsod has been paid at every single Thai-Thai wedding I've been to and over 90% of western men who married a Thai woman in Thailand paid sinsod. Unless the half dozen thai-thai weddings I've been to were just an elaborate ruse to make the farang (me) go tell other farangs "Thai's pay sinsod", I'm guessing that at least in the Northeast, it is a part of Thai culture, most Thais follow it and it's not just some scam that hookers started after the Vietnam war.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Guitar God

[Rhys]

As you have read the variety of response, hopefully, you have a better Idea. I was lucky the dowry was returned and my wife and I are cool about all. She has her Masters, a bit older, considered a professional. The family was pretty cool.. I think the key, getting to know the family and letting them know you and that your intentions for their special one is full of goodness.. Lastly, you can live happily ever after.

The exact amount.. there is no hard list, her parents will decide this for you.

Cheers

Mate.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Rhys

[Bill Miller]

There is an awful lot of misunderstanding and outright claptrap on the subject.
First of all, the idea of sin sod as a dowry is incorrect on the face of it. The dowry was an European convention where the bride's family
paid the groom, not vice versa. Some cultures today still have a tradition of a "bride price", which is much more nearly what the sin sod is.

You are not talking about a society which has a whole bunch of social safety nets here. The family has gone to a great deal of effort to bring up your beautiful girlfriend, and with next to no governmental or societal assistance. Particularly if she is a younger or only daughter she would traditionally be the care taker of the parents in old age. Thirdly the ability to plunk down some cash is indicative of your ability to care for and support your wife. It has also been suggested that it is backup for the woman in case things do not pan out after you have "ruined" her; a divorced woman still seemingly has a disadvantage vis a vis finding a replacement Thai husband.
Finally if you have come to Thailand in search of an exotic, beautiful wife, then you do not get to pick and choose the aspects of their culture you wish to follow. If she is not worth a couple of thousand bucks to someone then I have to question their sincerity/love. If you are talking in the $100,000 sin sot range then I have no applicable advice, as you are operating in social strata beyond my experience.

[gamini]

Get ready to be taken for a ride.

She sounds close to the Hi-So level be prepared to dig deep never married no kids the calculator is really making a noise on this one. If she has a condo and a car she should make a pre-nup to protect her interests. At their level to discuss return of the Sin Sod could be a sign to them that your a low level person. I do not know your financial shape but they are really looking for this gal to marry up not down. Love can be lovey dovey in the first year or so but then the true meaning of love must emerge to carry things to the finish line and its a long run let me tell you with lots of ups and down. Good luck.

If she is the really Hi-so you claim. Thais in this strata always pay for their daughters wedding and would be embarrassed not to do so.

[richard_smith237]

Get ready to be taken for a ride.

She sounds close to the Hi-So level be prepared to dig deep never married no kids the calculator is really making a noise on this one. If she has a condo and a car she should make a pre-nup to protect her interests. At their level to discuss return of the Sin Sod could be a sign to them that your a low level person. I do not know your financial shape but they are really looking for this gal to marry up not down. Love can be lovey dovey in the first year or so but then the true meaning of love must emerge to carry things to the finish line and its a long run let me tell you with lots of ups and down. Good luck.

If she is the really Hi-so you claim. Thais in this strata always pay for their daughters wedding and would be embarrassed not to do so.

???? ... I mean what ?? >>> ????? You know this for a fact ???.... because you state it like a fact.....

Comments such as those above are hilarious... All Hi-So parents pay for their daughters weddings !!!...>>> Really ???

What on earth is hi-so anyway ? such a daft term thrown around by those stupid enough to fall for the stupidity of its meaning.... especially when foreigners use it....

------------

Now... If you were to say... those Thai's of extremely fortunate, educated and culturally honourable backgrounds all pay for their daughters weddings you'd still be completely full of it !!!...

There is no norm amongst any level of society... there exists simply what is mutually agreeable between individual parties based on individual merit... This holds true of pretty much any society on earth with changing degrees of conformity to differing socially and culturally varying acceptable norms....

Edited January 16, 2016 by richard_smith237

[gamini]

It is not a tradition. It is a scam on foreigners.

If that is case, then explain why Thai men pay a sinsod

Thai men do not pay a sindod. None that I know of, nor any expats. Perhaps I live in a different society to you where the brides parents always pay fpr the wedding.

P,S I have been here a long time

[richard_smith237]

It is not a tradition. It is a scam on foreigners.

If that is case, then explain why Thai men pay a sinsod

Thai men do not pay a sindod. None that I know of, nor any expats. Perhaps I live in a different society to you where the brides parents always pay fpr the wedding.

P,S I have been here a long time

>>> ?? It's already been stated on this thread by other posters who have been to numerous Thai/Thai weddings that the Sin-Sod has been presented at each one of them.

This also holds true of my experiences.

Now, I wouldn't go as far to suggest that at some Thai/Thai or Western/Thai marriages Sin-Sod isn't paid as each situation is different...

....in fact the only situation which I'd suggest isn't different is the continuing stupidity of blanket statements we are reading in this thread so far...

P.S. I know someone who's been here longer than you... he has his own stool in a bar... He said something I forget....

[mgjackson69]

It is not a tradition. It is a scam on foreigners.

If that is case, then explain why Thai men pay a sinsod

Thai men do not pay a sindod. None that I know of, nor any expats. Perhaps I live in a different society to you where the brides parents always pay fpr the wedding.

P,S I have been here a long time

Our experiences have differed then.

I am not sure how many Thai/Thai weddings I have seen, I would guess 10 - 12 over the years, ranging from country folk in Isaan to some educated professionals in Bangkok.

In all cases a sinsod was payed.

I do not know the details of whether the sinsod was returned or not...but the sinsod was on display.

That is my observation only. Perhaps if I traveled in loftier circles or was here "a long time" such as yourself I might observe otherwise.

[thaiduncankk]

There is an awful lot of misunderstanding and outright claptrap on the subject.

First of all, the idea of sin sod as a dowry is incorrect on the face of it. The dowry was an European convention where the bride's family

paid the groom, not vice versa. Some cultures today still have a tradition of a "bride price", which is much more nearly what the sin sod is.

You are not talking about a society which has a whole bunch of social safety nets here. The family has gone to a great deal of effort to bring up your beautiful girlfriend, and with next to no governmental or societal assistance. Particularly if she is a younger or only daughter she would traditionally be the care taker of the parents in old age. Thirdly the ability to plunk down some cash is indicative of your ability to care for and support your wife. It has also been suggested that it is backup for the woman in case things do not pan out after you have "ruined" her; a divorced woman still seemingly has a disadvantage vis a vis finding a replacement Thai husband.

Finally if you have come to Thailand in search of an exotic, beautiful wife, then you do not get to pick and choose the aspects of their culture you wish to follow. If she is not worth a couple of thousand bucks to someone then I have to question their sincerity/love. If you are talking in the $100,000 sin sot range then I have no applicable advice, as you are operating in social strata beyond my experience.

If she is not worth a couple of thousand bucks to someone then you have to question the sincerity/love.

I have to question the sincerity/love when she expects someone to hand over money, as in buying her.

[gamini]

It is not a tradition. It is a scam on foreigners.

If that is case, then explain why Thai men pay a sinsod

Thai men do not pay a sindod. None that I know of, nor any expats. Perhaps I live in a different society to you where the brides parents always pay fpr the wedding.

P,S I have been here a long time

>>> ?? It's already been stated on this thread by other posters who have been to numerous Thai/Thai weddings that the Sin-Sod has been presented at each one of them.

This also holds true of my experiences.

Now, I wouldn't go as far to suggest that at some Thai/Thai or Western/Thai marriages Sin-Sod isn't paid as each situation is different...

....in fact the only situation which I'd suggest isn't different is the continuing stupidity of blanket statements we are reading in this thread so far...

P.S. I know someone who's been here longer than you... he has his own stool in a bar... He said something I forget....

Fair enough reply. We obviously live in different worlds here in Thailand. I accept that the majority of the posters on this forum attend wedding where a sinsod is paid, Where I am in the minority where sinsods are never paid. There are very distinct classes in Thai society and each has its different customs, Most of my Thai friends are elite and very rich and many titled. I am not ashamed of it. But the posters on this forum should not expect everyone to be like them.

[Rhys]

Well, do you have the necessary information? Remember going for love never works... think..culture has you by the short and curlies... comply or don't comply ...you only ... will know..

Cheers mate...

[MeHere]

It is not a tradition. It is a scam on foreigners.

If that is case, then explain why Thai men pay a sinsod

Thai men do not pay a sindod. None that I know of, nor any expats. Perhaps I live in a different society to you where the brides parents always pay fpr the wedding.

P,S I have been here a long time

I don't know where you live, but most, (not all) Thai men that I know of have paid a sinsod to marry their Thai or Thai-Chinese wife... Some of those got the money back, some did not.

Just last year an actress married a very wealthy businessman and he paid a sinsod to her parents to the tune of around 100MTHB

[thaiduncankk]

It is not a tradition. It is a scam on foreigners.

If that is case, then explain why Thai men pay a sinsod

Thai men do not pay a sindod. None that I know of, nor any expats. Perhaps I live in a different society to you where the brides parents always pay fpr the wedding.

P,S I have been here a long time

I don't know where you live, but most, (not all) Thai men that I know of have paid a sinsod to marry their Thai or Thai-Chinese wife... Some of those got the money back, some did not.

Just last year an actress married a very wealthy businessman and he paid a sinsod to her parents to the tune of around 100MTHB

That was Mr DTAC she married.

Do you really believe that was in the name of tradition ?

More a case of 'look at how rich I am' to all the media.

He'll have to do some serious shagging to get that much monies worth ?

[MeHere]

That was Mr DTAC she married.

Do you really believe that was in the name of tradition ?

More a case of 'look at how rich I am' to all the media.

He'll have to do some serious shagging to get that much monies worth ?

And I'm pretty sure some shagging he will do... but even though she's pretty hot, I bet he'll tire quickly ;-)

[Dumbastheycome]

The traditional payment is a negotiated aspect. And really only applies to never been married before daughters. As a farang the expectation that you are presumed capable of paying large amounts is possible. As she is the only daughter and the youngest it may be expected a larger than smaller sum could be asked for. Traditionally the youngest daughter is expected to be the carer of the aged parent/s and often not married at all.

But if her parents are wealthy and approving of the marriage then any expected payment may be a token.

If your relationshionship is healthy and honest then perhaps you can ask her to ask her parents about.

Be aware that the "negotiations" are usually made by the parents or other prominent family and not the expectant bride and groom. So in the situation of a farang negotiating for himself by himself it will likely depend on the level of respect and the percieved/ actual ability to afford.

Incidentally in the case of a second marriage of a daughter there is usually no call for any payment.

Nor have I heard of a refund scenario before. I guess it depends on the negotiation.

.

So, what exactly are you paying for ?

Permission to take care of her for the rest of your life. Taking her off the family payroll ?

They should be paying you.

Financial compensation for the removal of old age caregiver...........The original Social/cultural welfare system now replaced in the West by taxpayers.

So if they unfortunately pass away after the marriage, where, exactly, do you ask for a refund ?

Would that be a full refund Sir? She is second hand goods now is she not ?

Refund ?

<deleted> !

She is almost certainly 'second hand goods', not nice terminology, but you used it, well before you get there SIR.

I am sorry if the "second hand" terminology seems offensive but in truth Thais say it that way about divorced people.

"Sinsod" is expected as a negotiated form of demonstration of respect and sincerity of intention and the negotiated result is a measurement of that in an obscure way.

It has nothing to do with Bhudda.

For the wealthy it may be tokenism.

For the unwealthy it is a practicality.

I have now been happily married for 15 years to a "second hand " woman with her/ my daughter from her previous marriage to a violent and abusive husband genuinely considers and calls me ":Dad".

My Mother in Law has now passed away but never expected any "sinsod" or any other excess financial support .

I voluntarily gave her a sum of money after marriage with the explanation it was in gratitude for her acceptance of that marriage.

It gave her " Face" she never expected and never manipulated.

For the most part I can almost guarantee that regardless of financial status throughout Thai social structure it is important that who you are as a person and how you present will take precedent over your capacity or non capacity to splash money about.

To marry into a wealthy family the money is irrelevant unless you are seen as a taker.

For the unwealthy it can be a combination of your motivation, gullibility, but primarily socially agreeable and non disruptive.( Also applicable to the wealthy situation).

Western cultural norms versus any other have conflicts. You have to compromise radically . Predetermined concepts of " wrong" ,"stupid", "ignorant". etc need to be put aside until such time as at least little understanding of Thai social and cultural structure is understood. If not the there is the risk of yourself being viewed as "wrong", stupid" "ignorant " etc as a reaction.

There is little true value in claims of cultural superiority. Those that exist have done so for a very long time.

So for those who choose to enter into a different culture or otherwise interact with have no legitimate right to object to iussues of cultural/social impact with one exception. And that exception is allowing the self to be made a victim of the circumstance.

\No culture or social structure is without its elements of deception, dishonesty or corruption etc.

Anyone who gullibly falls victim to these cannot put fair blame on Thailand exclusively. Especially when many of these practices have been gleaned

from outside of Thailand.

A very good friend of mine gave me this question: " Who is the more stupidly stubborn...The one who demands unquestioning compliance with ...Or the.one who refuses non verified compliance with? " .

So in Thai marriage. terms it is a matter of following the format with some prior understanding and negotiating as an individual if that be the situation.

If genuine respect has been engendered then the difference between tokenism and bankrolling will be more simplified.

As for the "Refund" ? If you negotiate an investment that fails....you expect a full refund? Is that some form of meat market!

.

[thaiduncankk]

Pretty long and drawn out post that one above. Doesn't make much sense.

Goodnight.

[Dumbastheycome]

[bwpage3]

My wife was 29 when we married, no kids, no previous marriage, uni degree (English Major) and has a good job at the same Uni. Parents are poor rice farmers, no cash. I was asked for 100k, I gave 150 and paid for all the booze at the wedding, parents sorted the food. They know I will look after her, that's the main thing, we have a house and car etc that I have bought. I had no issues paying at all. We've been happily together 6 years now.

Don't always think you're getting ripped off. I can tell you that most of my wife's friends from work are married to Thai guys and majority of them paid more than I did. They aren't targeting you because you are falang. They would be asking for it even if you were Thai.

Just negotiate something you are comfortable with. Remind the parents she will be well taken care of throughout her life aswell.

Remember allot of the guys in here married bar girls half their age and have been burnt. They have become paranoid and believe everyone is out to get them.

This isn't the case for everyone.

Thank you for your comments - much appreciated. There seems to be some notion with some posters that they are all been ripped off.

With her family i dont feel this is the case at all. They have money as i have said - own their own business - have a lovely house - and cars and generally are very good family people. They really want there daughter to be happy and from day one her mom has always stressed that. They come to visit once a month - we rarely ever pay for anything to be honest - we try pay but they wont allow it.

My question is never about them ripping me off - i know they will not do this.

My questions were what i should ask about in relation to Sinsod -the weeding etc.

What you should be paying attention to is the reaction you get when you start talking about sinsod with your gf and how sincere those reactions are?

If anything is not fully agreeable and out of place, better tread carefully.

Any kind of wishy-washy responses where she is not looking out for your 100% is a serious red flag.

Some people are dead set against sin-sod (I would say this is because most people do not have it to give or they are the kind of people that do not trust their wife with any money, in which case why get married in the first place)?

That being said, I paid 300,000 and gold jewelry for my wife from Isaan. Huge sum of money for that village and it was great for my father in laws "face".

He returned the money to my wife even though there was no agreement with me. My wife handled all of this on her own.

We received around 30,000 thb in gift card donations which was not expected.

For the wedding itself, it was over 100,000 baht. The custom dress, makeup artists, live band, dancers, emcee's, half a dozen large tents with fancy tables, roast pigs, fish, you name it. Estimated that 500 people showed up and partied all night. There was plenty of food left over for the locals to take home.

Neighbors, friends etc. that pitched in to setup, wash dishes (which were all on loan from the local temple), cooks were all paid.

We had already planned to move back to the USA, so we gave every single thing in our western style house to my father in law. He came with his son and a bunch of help and took all the appliances, computers, flat screen tvs, furniture, motor bikes, etc. back to Isaan.

Honestly the biggest joy I have seen my father in law have is when he got the TV's and we paid for satellite TV for him. Quite a hit in his village and he is very happy to have a TV to watch.

We have close relationship and still help her father in law from the USA when ever he needs something.

It really depends on the family and how well of a relationship you have.

There has to be an understanding on both sides of the family that are realistic for things to really work.

[backtothailand]

Sorry about the delay in replying and updating everyone on my recent trip to Hat Yai for the wedding negotiation.

In truth it couldn't have gone any better.

Firstly its very clear hr Mother likes me and believes i am the right man for her daughter. She said she was very happy that her daughter had found someone who was kind to her and treated her well.

She explained she understood that Sin Sot was not my tradition and had also told me her daughter called her and asked for her not to ask for too much. Her mother asked for 800,000 THB and explained it was only for show and would be returned after the ceremony. I agreed to this as i found she had thought this out and listened to what her daughter had asked.

No engagement gold was mentioned or asked for.

We both agreed to share the wedding costs 50 50. We agreed on the month and MOL will go to the temple to pick a date.

We agreed to have the wedding at a hotel in or around Hat Yai and next month we will travel to look at various places - Chinese Thai style.

Her mothers main concern was her daughter and welfare. She stressed it was her only daughter and she need me to assure her I would look after her and keep her safe. This was the main topic of conversation to be honest. She asked me some straight questions like have i ever been married before - kids anywhere etc - how i would support her daughter etc.

Her older brother also attended the meeting too. He is a very chilled out guy and again his concern is only his sisters well-being.

He actually spoke up in favor of me as he said he has seen a complete change in her behaviour after meeting me. Prior to meeting me my girl like to enjoy herself and go out alot after work. Drink drink drink. I understand this too as i used to do this too when i worked in the hotel industry. We all have done it. He said as far as he was concerned she had made a 180 degree turn in her life. I will say though we both like to go out and enjoy a few drinks now and again.

Her mothers final wish and condition lol was a grandchild as soon as possible. She said she has no hope any of her sons are getting married anytime soon lol

After all was finished her mother thanked me for travelling so far and showing real commitment to the relationship.

After finishing they brought me back to the airport and a quick stop to see her dad on the way - he was working.

Overall a great trip to a great future family.

[The Fat Controller]

Best of luck, sounds like you have been as lucky as me in finding a good set of in-laws

When we got married the money was also all for show and went back into my wife's bank account the same evening.

Now, 18 months later that money is to be used to refurbish the house in Ubon that my mother-in-law has given to us.

[zeichen]

congratulations. Hopefully it turns out as expected and there is no hidden agendas. Sounds like her family respects you.

I do love how these threads turn into a list of their wive's credentials. First of all, the amount of sin sot has nothing to do with virginity, previous marriage, education level of the girl, or even the current job she has. I don't understand why every foreigner bangs on about these things. Sin Sot has nothing to do with these. The amount is usually in relationship to the social status of the family and their education level not the girl's.

800k is a pretty large amount for most middle and lower middle class families but isn't outrageous and yes it is only for show and always returned. If the money isn't returned the family is poor or gold diggers.