Los Ranked Number 3 For Murders

[qualtrough]

Arai wah? Mai kau jai!

Walking in the streets of San Paulo or NY certainly feels much safer than in BKK.

Speaking Thai again? Show off!

[longway]

I am pretty sure that the figure of 20,032 for murders by firearm, 1998-2000, quoted in the original article is incorrect. I've seen this figure before, and it just doesn't agree with the figure for total murders, 5,140, for the same period, from the same study.

yeah the 20,000 must be wrong. its means 50-60 people being shot and killed everyday. iraq is at about 100 a day apparently for comaprsion.

the average farang is much less likely to be assaulted physically here, but if it does happen the consequences are likley to be greater, though not necessarily so.

thailand can be dangerous, but no point in being hysterical about the whole thing.

[ColPyat]

Arai wah? Mai kau jai!

Walking in the streets of San Paulo or NY certainly feels much safer than in BKK.

That depends very much which streets you are walking.

If you are thinking about most areas in inner Bangkok, you definately are very safe. Even the traditional slums, even though rather violent, you will rarely be threatened (but you will be insulted). In these areas there is still the old rule valid that you will be left alone if you don't look for trouble.

If you are walking the streets of the lower class living areas of the industrial belt in Bangkok's suburbs and outer districts - you are very mistaken in your believe that you are safe.

Thailand has always been rather violent, though mostly, as pointed out already, easily avoidable as only already existing conflicts were dealt with in very violent ways.

What has changed though is that incidents of random violence became over especially the last 3 years far more regular. I do not have any statistics to back this up, only personal experience working with the rescue in several areas of Bangkok and suburbs.

What has happened is that i have seen an increasing trend of incidents of random and gang violence, against uninvolved people as well, in addition to rising amounts of rapes and hold ups.

Am i scared? At times definately, there were/are moments of adrenaline.

I believe most foreigners, and most Thais above a certain income group will not be affected by this sort of violence yet (even though i do see more reports of violence against farang than previously). This, and a very aggressive selfprojection of Thailand being the "land of smile" might be a reason that regarding violence here in Thailand we will never agree here on such boards. It is very difficult to actually see much of this violence if one stays out of the partcular areas. Why would one go there ayhow - there is nothing of interest. These areas are ugly and boring. Nevertheless - many Thai people live there, and migrate there in increasing numbers.

But if i look at general trends - i have a rather uncomfortable feeling that things will get a lot worse in the future here, and that there will be a point soon where this sort of violence will be far more visible.

[qualtrough]

If you are walking the streets of the lower class living areas of the industrial belt in Bangkok's suburbs and outer districts - you are very mistaken in your believe that you are safe.

Please let us know specifically which areas you are referring to. Thanks in advance.

[GuestHouse]

Klong Toey might not be a good idea.

[ColPyat]

If you are walking the streets of the lower class living areas of the industrial belt in Bangkok's suburbs and outer districts - you are very mistaken in your believe that you are safe.

Please let us know specifically which areas you are referring to. Thanks in advance.

Klong Toey slum is actually comparatively safe (sorry, guesthouse ). It's rough there, but even the worst areas, such as loc 1, have only very few no go zones, even late night.

The real dangerous areas are in Samut Prakan (i am very familiar with Samlong Dai, Puchao Road and especially the long Sois such as Suan Som, or Wat Bang Hua Sua), Prapadaeng, Rama 2 area, and many areas close to the industrial zones in the Rangsit/Patum region. Don Muang and Saphan Mai have some dodgy areas as well.

Of course not all places in those districts are unsafe, many upper middle class Mu Bans are located there as well. But be very careful in the slums and the lower income group Mu Ban's, and the Sois leading to them.

[nostrel]

by my estimation over the last 25 years of surging tourism certainly the number of tourists & expats murdered is in the high 100s or more likely over a 1000 ,thats without all the mystery accidents and disapearances .There is no tourist destination in LOS that hasnt had 1 or more murdered tourists.

Bangkok, Pattaya,Phuket, Samui, Samet, Ko Chang, ChiangMai, Chiang Rai ,Chantanaburi, Krabi, and others.

no other tourist destination can compete with these figures.

so for murders against tourists LOS holds the number 1 spot without doubt.

[longway]

by my estimation over the last 25 years of surging tourism certainly the number of tourists & expats murdered is in the high 100s or more likely over a 1000 ,thats without all the mystery accidents and disapearances .There is no tourist destination in LOS that hasnt had 1 or more murdered tourists.

Bangkok, Pattaya,Phuket, Samui, Samet, Ko Chang, ChiangMai, Chiang Rai ,Chantanaburi, Krabi, and others.

no other tourist destination can compete with these figures.

so for murders against tourists LOS holds the number 1 spot without doubt.

so you think there are about 40 farang murders a year plus sundry dissapearances. i find that surprising. u have anythng top back it up?

[ColPyat]

so you think there are about 40 farang murders a year plus sundry dissapearances. i find that surprising. u have anythng top back it up?

I think that you find both Thai authorities and foreign embassies more than reluctant to give out any number (in private conversations with consular personal you will hear though numbers higher than you mentioned).

Maybe someone with not much else to do can scan here just the in the media reported murders against foreigners as scored here on this board.

[longway]

so you think there are about 40 farang murders a year plus sundry dissapearances. i find that surprising. u have anythng top back it up?

I think that you find both Thai authorities and foreign embassies more than reluctant to give out any number (in private conversations with consular personal you will hear though numbers higher than you mentioned).

Maybe someone with not much else to do can scan here just the in the media reported murders against foreigners as scored here on this board.

yeah i had a look on the internet and could not find any figures except the british embassy saying 9 brits have been murdered since august 2004. which is why i asked the question, how does the guy know? i think u qualify as the guy with not much to do so i think u should keep tally

just to play with the figures a bit thailand has 12 million visitors a year. the murder rate is 0.08 per capita. given that there are 1 million visitors here in any given month ( just as an estimate) you would expect 80 murders a year.

if there are about 40+, then it is plausible i guess.

[Tolley]

Amazing analysis of the situation.

You speak and read Thai therefore what exactly? You understand the situation better than anyone else!

Yes. It is pretty much a no brainer that someone who can speak and read the native language and therefore interact with the populace, read their papers and periodicals, and listen to and understand their radio and television programs might have a bit better understanding of any given situation than those who need to 'ask their girlfriend or wife' to find out what's going on.

People are scaredy cats for mentioning that Thailand has a large amount of violence? Sorry I don't follow that line of reasoning at all.

Yeah, I think they are scaredy cats and here's why. Thailand has had a high rate of violent crime for a long, long time. It flabbergasts me that many of you are discovering this for the first time, but that must be the case as we periodically have these threads about how dangerous Thailand is, or is becoming. If you are scared now you should have paid more attention before coming here. I suggest the moderator pin a post with the info on the crime rate so any ninnies considering living here can avoid that mistake. I also suggest that the moderator create a new subforum titled 'I Live in Thailand and I am Scared' where the scaredy cats can discuss things like safe indoor activities, how to avoid contact with Thai people, hiding under the bed techniques, etc. & etc.

[accidently snipped something here about agreeing with the OP, but I don't see the conflict there. I agree that there is a lot of violent crime, I just disagree with your obsession with it and your conclusions. I also think some of you are in denial about how safe you are in your own countries, particularly those, like me, from the USA.]

Do you really know what you think or what you write?

Yes I do, thanks for asking.

It may come as a shock to you but you are not the only farang who is fluent in Thai. By your rationale someone who has been in Thailand longer than you or who speaks better Thai than you would therefore more likely to be more correct than yourself.

Ones ability in the language has nothing to do with the facts. They stand alone. The facts are that thailand is dangerous and most statisitics bear this out. There is a high murder rate and high rate of violent crime.

Mentioning this doesn't make anyone a scaredy cat what it makes them is informed.

If you reread my posts I don't think you will find anything in them that says that Thailand does not have a high rate of violent crime. The point I have tried and apparently failed to make is that the nature of this crime is somewhat different than that found back in our home countries, and thus the likelihood of farangs falling victim to it is probably much lower than statistics would indicate. Your chances of being mugged, being the victim of a drive by shooting, being the victim of a serial killer, being the victim of random violence, etc. are almost assuredly much, much less here than in the US. Thai violence is seldom random or visited upon strangers (particularly farangs)/ In fact hit men here seem to take great care in only shooting their targets. The vast majority of the deaths in those statistics you are so fond of (which are somewhat dodgy--but that is another issue) are due to political and/or business disputes, inter-familial issues, or late night drunken behavior. Most foreign visitors and residents here will not get tied up in those things, and they can certainly take steps to make sure they are not. Farangs are in far, far more danger of being injured or dying in a road accident than they are from violence here. Sure, good thing to know, but other than using common sense what are we supposed to do? Do we really need these Chicken Little threads one after the other? Why not just pin some crime statistics and be done with it? I guess I am in denial, or perhaps incredibly brave, but I am not at all afraid to live here, and feel safer than I would back home. Sure, bad things can happen to anyone, there is the luck of the draw, but I think you are trying to frighten people needlessly.

See you are still iln denial. You admit there is violence but maintain that it is restricted to Thai on Thai. I don't understand why so many expats have this blinkered view of Thailand.

Violent crime against foreigners seem to be on the increase in Thailand. The tourist areas are rather heavily policed so many of us are in a bit of safety bubble when it comes to violence in Thailand. Nonetheless even the heavily policed tourist areas have their fair share of violent incidents. A quick scan of the news section indicates that there has been many incidents in the last year.

Now I don't think things are at the stage where anybody should deter travel to Thailand because of personal security issues but it is a subject worthy of discussion and one that needs scrutiny on an ongoing basis. Again it seems when these sort of discussions arise we get a style of expat who wants to stop the discussion and brand anyone who discusses such issues as a namby pampy or a scaredy cat. Thailand has serous social and political problems that could lead to an escalation of viokence and unrulyness that could in turn lead to a diminuation in safety.

Further like many other posters you quote the US as being more dangerous. Sorry I don't buy that argument. The US is certainly dangerous in certain areas but a lot of suburban US has very low crime rates. Anyway I am not from the US. I am from Australia and it is certainly much less violent than the US or Thailand. The reason threads like this exist is that violent incidents happen on a too regular basis in the land of smiles and this is of concern to many of us.

[qualtrough]

Tolley, I see no reason to continue discussing this with you as you consistently misrepresent what I have written, and continue to make assertions with little in the way of facts or statistics to back them up. Must be miserable being so afraid all the time...

[lomatopo]

if there are about 40+, then it is plausible i guess.

Forty, plus or minus 15%, seems like a reasonable SWAG. That would be ~ 1.5% of the total murders (5,140 for 2 years, so assumed 2,570 per year) on an annual basis.

I am still amazed that any editor actually let the discussed article get published as is?

[Diablo Bob]

Aaaahhhhh

Thank God, I am going back to Afghanistan next week where it is SAFE and SANE.

I don't think I have ever seen as many wimps communicating in a forum like this at one time........

Thailand Number 3 in murders........ Bullsh_t. I know of quite a few other places that exceed Thailand's per capita murder rate.

I know that it isn't safe at times....... so what! I don't make my schedule or make my plans around UNSAFE areas.

Wimps.... Get a grip on yourselves, don't sh_t your pants, it isn't as bad as this ONE article claims.

While you calm down, take a chill pill and get a grip on yourselves ........ Remember, there are more "Sporty" areas to live in the world.

[dog412]

to see how close the threat of "violence" lies in this country, just "criticize" it. the "veneer" of the smile is not so thick. just keep smiling.

[ColPyat]

I don't think I have ever seen as many wimps communicating in a forum like this at one time........

I doubt that stating facts equals cowardice.

No doubt that a warzone like Afghanisthan can be far more dangerous than Thailand.

But my experience is that most foreigners working in warzones stay in their safe NGO and expat heavans, and live there safer than an old fart crossing a village road, biggest danger getting VD from an old rancid hooker.

Have fun there, don't forget the rubbers.

[longway]

to see how close the threat of "violence" lies in this country, just "criticize" it. the "veneer" of the smile is not so thick. just keep smiling.

go to the usa and say something critical of gwb, if ur in the wrong place, pick up ur teeth then tell us about the 'veneer' here. keep smiling.

[longway]

if there are about 40+, then it is plausible i guess.

Forty, plus or minus 15%, seems like a reasonable SWAG. That would be ~ 1.5% of the total murders (5,140 for 2 years, so assumed 2,570 per year) on an annual basis.

I am still amazed that any editor actually let the discussed article get published as is?

holy sh!t can 2 people actually come to an agreement on TV. the OP article was sensationalistic trash.

[Douggie Style]

I don't see why the issue needs to become so polarised.

Most people have some fundamental interest in personal security, part of the human psyche, fairly self evident from the abundance of crime reporting which sustains our media.

Therefore it is natural to want to discuss and read about crime in a country you are interested in, is it going up or down, dangerous spots and so on, it feeds back into our need to be safe and/or how to take precautions. Discussing crime here has value.

In contrast, crime is often sensationalised and a good dose of street smarts will probably significantly lower your chances of being exposed to crime wherever you are. In short crime is partly predictable and avoidable.

I cannot prove that, other than by gut common sense. Which is how I understand the posters 'defending' Thailand's security, as meaning, it is not a universal random bogey man but something that can (to a degree) be managed- raw statistics do not necessarily relate proportionally back to the danger an individual tourist faces, when taking into account all the other factors as mentioned above.

To me, the frightening crime is that which APPEARS to be without rhyme or reason and therefore is unable to be managed.

[qualtrough]

I don't see why the issue needs to become so polarised.

Most people have some fundamental interest in personal security, part of the human psyche, fairly self evident from the abundance of crime reporting which sustains our media.

Therefore it is natural to want to discuss and read about crime in a country you are interested in, is it going up or down, dangerous spots and so on, it feeds back into our need to be safe and/or how to take precautions. Discussing crime here has value.

In contrast, crime is often sensationalised and a good dose of street smarts will probably significantly lower your chances of being exposed to crime wherever you are. In short crime is partly predictable and avoidable.

I cannot prove that, other than by gut common sense. Which is how I understand the posters 'defending' Thailand's security, as meaning, it is not a universal random bogey man but something that can (to a degree) be managed- raw statistics do not necessarily relate proportionally back to the danger an individual tourist faces, when taking into account all the other factors as mentioned above.

To me, the frightening crime is that which APPEARS to be without rhyme or reason and therefore is unable to be managed.

DouggieStyle--I think you hit the nail on the head. Contrary to what some others have said here, I do not deny that Thailand has a high violent crime rate, nor do I think that there is only Thai on Thai crime. What I do think is that the incidents of random and unprovoked violent crime (the kind you cannot take any steps to avoid) experienced by foreigners is pretty low, and that the odds of the average foreigner experiencing such a problem is likely the same or lower than the country they live in.

Further affecting any such rates is the fact that a very high percentage of farang visitors here engage in activities that would be somewhat high risk in any number of countries--namely late night drinking in bars in red light districts. Not being judgmental because I have been there and done that, but your environment is going to affect your experience. In fact, if you compared the relative safety of late night drinking and carousing with, let's call a spade a spade, prostitutes, I doubt you could find a safer place to do that.

I am also doubtful that the rate (not number of incidents) of foreign violent crime victims has risen. Until someone can present some sound statistical data I don't think this issue will be resolved. The cited study with an enormous discrepency doesn't shed any light on this issue. In the social sciences a study containing an error of that magnitude would be dismissed out of hand.

Finally, I don't have anything against discussing crime here in Thailand or elsewhere. What I do object to is the Chicken Little approach that some exhibit here every time they read about some violent crime involving a farang.

Edited October 22, 2006 by qualtrough

[Diablo Bob]

I don't think I have ever seen as many wimps communicating in a forum like this at one time........

I doubt that stating facts equals cowardice.

No doubt that a warzone like Afghanisthan can be far more dangerous than Thailand.

But my experience is that most foreigners working in warzones stay in their safe NGO and expat heavans, and live there safer than an old fart crossing a village road, biggest danger getting VD from an old rancid hooker.

Have fun there, don't forget the rubbers.

The key word is NGO or United Nations...... it is true they do hunker down quite well. As a matter of fact they also spend money and accomplish absolutely nothing quite well. I am not part of that contingent.

Haven't had fun there in almost 5 years, I doubt if this is qoing to change.

[Fontok]

Hello,

this is my first posting. I agree with nostrel's opinion and facts. After 7 years living in Thailand I think in the same way. Even so I do not live in an urban region its just a small provincial village. There are 2 sites of Thailand. The commercial dreaming site and the real site which cannot be sold very well.

So there is nothing exciting, I have to live with these numbers of a horrific and divided society. I am not here to moralize I just live here because in the first row its cheap and warm. So what? Its good to discuss "Daily Danger and daily violence in this country". But for me as a realistic man I can handle that through cautious and controlled behavior outside of my home. Its a pity for sure but I am not a dreamer. I like it warm and cheap, thats it. I f I want more things like peace, safety, cultural history and educated people to discuss the things are going around I would leave Thailand and go home.

Edited October 22, 2006 by Fontok

[ColPyat]

The key word is NGO or United Nations...... it is true they do hunker down quite well. As a matter of fact they also spend money and accomplish absolutely nothing quite well .

How true.

Isn't that almost everywhere when the f_ucking circus appears?

The only times i have seen the UN or NGOs actually achieve something is when they have some tiny operations in a otherwise completely neglected backwater.

A friend once said that they would achieve more if they would throw all that money off a helicopter, and stay out of the places they invade.

[jumbo]

And now....the stats

Crime Statistics > Murders (per capita) by country

VIEW DATA: Totals Per capita

Definition Source Printable version

Bar Graph Map Correlations

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)

#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people

#2 South Africa 0.496008 per 1,000 people

#3 Jamaica 0.324196 per 1,000 people

#4 Venezuela 0.316138 per 1,000 people

#5 Russia 0.201534 per 1,000 people

#6 Mexico 0.130213 per 1,000 people

#7 Estonia 0.107277 per 1,000 people

#8 Latvia 0.10393 per 1,000 people

#9 Lithuania 0.102863 per 1,000 people

#10 Belarus 0.0983495 per 1,000 people

#11 Ukraine 0.094006 per 1,000 people

#12 Papua New Guinea 0.0838593 per 1,000 people

#13 Kyrgyzstan 0.0802565 per 1,000 people

#14 Thailand 0.0800798 per 1,000 people

#15 Moldova 0.0781145 per 1,000 people

#16 Zimbabwe 0.0749938 per 1,000 people

#17 Seychelles 0.0739025 per 1,000 people

#18 Zambia 0.070769 per 1,000 people

#19 Costa Rica 0.061006 per 1,000 people

#20 Poland 0.0562789 per 1,000 people

#21 Georgia 0.0511011 per 1,000 people

#22 Uruguay 0.045082 per 1,000 people

#23 Bulgaria 0.0445638 per 1,000 people

#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people

#25 Armenia 0.0425746 per 1,000 people

#26 India 0.0344083 per 1,000 people

#27 Yemen 0.0336276 per 1,000 people

#28 Dominica 0.0289733 per 1,000 people

#29 Azerbaijan 0.0285642 per 1,000 people

#30 Finland 0.0283362 per 1,000 people

#31 Slovakia 0.0263303 per 1,000 people

#32 Romania 0.0250784 per 1,000 people

#33 Portugal 0.0233769 per 1,000 people

#34 Malaysia 0.0230034 per 1,000 people

#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 0.0229829 per 1,000 people

#36 Mauritius 0.021121 per 1,000 people

#37 Hungary 0.0204857 per 1,000 people

#38 Korea, South 0.0196336 per 1,000 people

#39 Slovenia 0.0179015 per 1,000 people

#40 France 0.0173272 per 1,000 people

#41 Czech Republic 0.0169905 per 1,000 people

#42 Iceland 0.0168499 per 1,000 people

#43 Australia 0.0150324 per 1,000 people

#44 Canada 0.0149063 per 1,000 people

#45 Chile 0.014705 per 1,000 people

#46 United Kingdom 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

#47 Italy 0.0128393 per 1,000 people

#48 Spain 0.0122456 per 1,000 people

#49 Germany 0.0116461 per 1,000 people

#50 Tunisia 0.0112159 per 1,000 people

#51 Netherlands 0.0111538 per 1,000 people

#52 New Zealand 0.0111524 per 1,000 people

#53 Denmark 0.0106775 per 1,000 people

#54 Norway 0.0106684 per 1,000 people

#55 Ireland 0.00946215 per 1,000 people

#56 Switzerland 0.00921351 per 1,000 people

#57 Indonesia 0.00910842 per 1,000 people

#58 Greece 0.0075928 per 1,000 people

#59 Hong Kong 0.00550804 per 1,000 people

#60 Japan 0.00499933 per 1,000 people

#61 Saudi Arabia 0.00397456 per 1,000 people

#62 Qatar 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

[meemiathai]

ok............

I can see Iraq and Afghanistan are very safe places to have a holiday in.

Let me start planning........1)Iraq 2)Afghanistan 3)Cashimir..........

BTW, can anyone point me where China is on the list?

Thanks, jumbo.

Edited October 22, 2006 by meemiathai

[ColPyat]

ok............

I can see Iraq and Afghanistan are very safe places to have a holiday in.

Let me start planning........1)Iraq 2)Afghanistan 3)Cashimir..........

BTW, can anyone point me where China is on the list?

Thanks, jumbo.

Iraq, Afghanisthan and Kashmir are active warzones. Hardly comparable to Thailand.

Here is a small link about China. Given its population of more than a billion, the murder rate of the stated 31 000 cases is miniscule.

Guns etc are far more difficult to come by in China.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-05...tent_592568.htm

By all accounts, Thailand has a far higher murder rate than the one of the US, the western country with the highest murder rate. So, unless you are from from Colombia or Russia, Thailand is indeed a rather violent place.

[jumbo]

ok............

I can see Iraq and Afghanistan are very safe places to have a holiday in.

Let me start planning........1)Iraq 2)Afghanistan 3)Cashimir..........

BTW, can anyone point me where China is on the list?

Thanks, jumbo.

As for China, some countries do not contribute to these lists

As for Iran, Afghanistan I think these murders are more or less listed as warcasualties???? or something like this if not darfur would be no.1 on the list ....I guess

J

[meemiathai]

[meemiathai]

Guns etc are far more difficult to come by in China.

Don't tell me you also have worked in the rescue services in China.

I really doubt what you said.

[ColPyat]

Guns etc are far more difficult to come by in China.

Don't tell me you also have worked in the rescue services in China.

I really doubt what you said.

Nops, but i have been many times in China over the last 15 years or so. And i have several friends who live and work in China for a very long time, and whose judgement on those issues i do not doubt.

Here in Thailand it would take me about 30 minutes, and a few thousand baht, to get a black market gun, if i would want to. Pen guns go for about 200 baht, but they are useless for distances more than a few meters.