David Miller's father opposes Koh Tao death sentence

[waighty]

I personally am an ardent supporter of the death penalty where there is guilt beyond any doubt. This decision, I do not believe is one of the "beyond any doubt" cases.

[SOTIRIOS]

...and who will watch over the 'convicted' while in prison.....

....nobody to say they are safe.....

...God Help us all.....

[Baerboxer]

I get the feeling that the Miller family were "fed a story" that convinced them of the B2's guilt...and this was done outside the course of legal process.....now that they are faced with condoning a death penalty on what to the whole world is an unsatisfactory trial, the seeds of doubt have been sewn.

The "whole world" - a tad exaggerating. Do you think many outside Thailand's expat community, some in the UK, and some who follow certain social media sites are interested, informed or particularly bothered?

I suggest the vast majority of the world's population won't even be aware of this case.

Those that followed the investigation subsequent trial will have formed an opinion. But hardly the whole world. And, unlikely to change anything.

The British authorities won't release the information they provided to the breaved families in seems; and now the two families appear to have different views.

The only sure things are that the real truth of all that happened on that fateful night is unlikely to be revealed; and nothing will change as a result of this case.

[Jackin1960]

Thai police won't like this they want them dead. They don't want them in jail so that the truth can come out later and prove them to be what we all know to be them to be "corrupt to the core."

[catsanddogs]

The Millers knew they were supporting the death penalty when they said the evidence was overwhelming. Now they say they don't not want the men to get the death penalty - bit late in my opinion. Should have thought more before Michael Miller read the long prepared statement to the media almost immediately after the verdict was read. The Millers believe that David was hacked from behind and left to drown. Do they also believe that story the police want them to, that Hannah and David were having sex on the beach? That Hannah and David, before getting down to the act, threw their clothes all over the beach far and wide and that Hannah went to the beach in just her knickers/shorts? - her skirt wasn't found. Maybe the Millers just saw the crime scene photos after the police (and other individuals) had some some tidying up and they are convinced that the neat little pile of clothes on the rock was the work of Hannah and David before they got intimate. The Miller's feelings would not be so worrying if it were just one person's beliefs, but this is a whole family of adults seemingly of the same unwavering belief. Cold comfort that they would prefer the men to simply rot in prison for the rest of their lives for a crime they likely didn't commit rather than be put to death.

[smotherb]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Some argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but it does serve at least two good purposes: 1) tax payer expenses for incarceration are lessened and 2) the perp will never do it again

If any country in the world had a perfect legal system where only the truly guilty were ever put to death then your arguement may hold some water, but in reality where the death sentence exists then occasionally innocent people are put to death. That is never acceptable at any cost.

Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened.

[sjaak327]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Some argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but it does serve at least two good purposes: 1) tax payer expenses for incarceration are lessened and 2) the perp will never do it again

If any country in the world had a perfect legal system where only the truly guilty were ever put to death then your arguement may hold some water, but in reality where the death sentence exists then occasionally innocent people are put to death. That is never acceptable at any cost.

Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened.

I think the one you quoted isn't going to rethink his position on the death penalty based on your post. Your first argument isn't an argument of course, and defies logic. Your second argument isn't very strong either and in the case of Thailand pretty much inconsequential, the savings would be minimal.

In any case, that could never be a reason for the death penalty.

[smotherb]

In this day and age, only the most backward and uncivilised countries have the death penalty.

In this day and age, the most forward looking and civilised countries have the death penalty and they should actively promote its use around the world.

Oh please nottocus, do some research. Just google "the Death Penalty Worldwide"

Please note all those forward looking and civilized countries listed below. However, please also note the three most economically successful countries--US, China, and Japan--do permit the death penalty. Almost amusing, isn't it?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

Death Penalty Permitted

• Afghanistan
• Antigua and Barbuda
• Bahamas
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Belarus
• Belize
• Botswana
• Chad
• China (People's Republic)
• Comoros
• Congo (Democratic Republic)
• Cuba
• Dominica
• Egypt
• Equatorial Guinea
• Ethiopia
• Gambia
• Guatemala
• Guinea
• Guyana
• India
• Indonesia
• Iran
• Iraq
• Jamaica
• Japan
• Jordan
• Kuwait
• Lebanon

• Lesotho
• Libya
• Malaysia
• Nigeria
• North Korea
• Oman
• Pakistan
• Palestinian Authority
• Qatar
• St. Kitts and Nevis
• St. Lucia
• St. Vincent and the Grenadines
• Saudi Arabia
• Singapore
• Somalia
• South Sudan
• Sudan
• Syria
• Taiwan
• Thailand
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Uganda
• United Arab Emirates
• United States
• Vietnam
• Yemen
• Zimbabwe

Edited January 20, 2016 by smotherb

[dunroaming]

Their grief must be overwhelming and they just want to be able to move on. If they reject the guilty verdict then they cannot do that. I understand that but then why even agree to be interviewed about it?

[mike313]

Odd that Mr Miller has suddenly spoken out after Laura's very truthful and sad facebook post.

I wonder, with all respect - did the Millers accept any compensation?

Mods, if this is over the top - delete it.

This is an absolutely appalling statement, and your sheep following are equally as appalling. You have all overstepped the mark here on thaivisa.

[mike313]

I get the feeling that the Miller family were "fed a story" that convinced them of the B2's guilt...and this was done outside the course of legal process.....now that they are faced with condoning a death penalty on what to the whole world is an unsatisfactory trial, the seeds of doubt have been sewn.

The "whole world" - a tad exaggerating. Do you think many outside Thailand's expat community, some in the UK, and some who follow certain social media sites are interested, informed or particularly bothered?

I suggest the vast majority of the world's population won't even be aware of this case.

Those that followed the investigation subsequent trial will have formed an opinion. But hardly the whole world. And, unlikely to change anything.

The British authorities won't release the information they provided to the breaved families in seems; and now the two families appear to have different views.

The only sure things are that the real truth of all that happened on that fateful night is unlikely to be revealed; and nothing will change as a result of this case.

I live in England, and most people I know are fully aware of this case, it has been widely publicised here.

[Khun Han]

Odd that Mr Miller has suddenly spoken out after Laura's very truthful and sad facebook post.

I wonder, with all respect - did the Millers accept any compensation?

Mods, if this is over the top - delete it.

This is an absolutely appalling statement, and your sheep following are equally as appalling. You have all overstepped the mark here on thaivisa.

That's odd: I don't recall you jumping in with withering condemnation when your team posted equally derogatory remarks about Laura Witheridge's comments recently, or even after any of the disgusting aspersions cast on Andy Hall's credibility. But a bit of showboating like the above quoted post is always a good, easy option, isn't it ?

[Khun Han]

I get the feeling that the Miller family were "fed a story" that convinced them of the B2's guilt...and this was done outside the course of legal process.....now that they are faced with condoning a death penalty on what to the whole world is an unsatisfactory trial, the seeds of doubt have been sewn.

The "whole world" - a tad exaggerating. Do you think many outside Thailand's expat community, some in the UK, and some who follow certain social media sites are interested, informed or particularly bothered?

I suggest the vast majority of the world's population won't even be aware of this case.

Those that followed the investigation subsequent trial will have formed an opinion. But hardly the whole world. And, unlikely to change anything.

The British authorities won't release the information they provided to the breaved families in seems; and now the two families appear to have different views.

The only sure things are that the real truth of all that happened on that fateful night is unlikely to be revealed; and nothing will change as a result of this case.

I live in England, and most people I know are fully aware of this case, it has been widely publicised here.

Yes. Back in mid-September 2014 I personally was made aware of these murders by a friend in the UK who has no connection to Thailand.

[joebrown]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Some argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but it does serve at least two good purposes: 1) tax payer expenses for incarceration are lessened and 2) the perp will never do it again

If any country in the world had a perfect legal system where only the truly guilty were ever put to death then your arguement may hold some water, but in reality where the death sentence exists then occasionally innocent people are put to death. That is never acceptable at any cost.

Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened.

In any country where capital punishment exists, the evidence presented in Court should be 100% accurate and leave not the slightest element of doubt as to the culpability of the defendant(s). Scene of Crime and Forensic procedures have developed enormously over the last century, and the use of DNA as a 'fail-safe' makes culpability that much easier to determine if the correct procedures are rigidly followed. So, if the death penalty is prescribed it will be carried out in the knowledge that the verdict was beyond reproach. Sadly, there are many so called civilized countries in the world I would not trust to follow correct investigative procedures, and consequently it's likely innocent persons will be put to death. Having lived in LOS for 10 yrs I have to conclude that I would not trust the police here to conduct an unbiased, transparent and objective investigation in a murder situation. The Koh Tao debacle only serves to strengthen my opinion.

[Chetzee]

the Millers are fully entitled to their views , but in the cold light of day can i suggest they ask themselves , is it truly reasonable to believe with out doubt , that the the injuries to both victims were achieve by the same weapon .

If they feel that the above is beyond reasonable doubt ,

then they should ask themselves just how unlikely is it that David's DNA was not present on the murder weapon , when he had been repeatedly beaten with it ...........

[JLCrab]

the Millers are fully entitled to their views , but in the cold light of day can i suggest they ask themselves , is it truly reasonable to believe with out doubt , that the the injuries to both victims were achieve by the same weapon .

If they feel that the above is beyond reasonable doubt ,

then they should ask themselves just how unlikely is it that David's DNA was not present on the murder weapon , when he had been repeatedly beaten with it ...........

Why would they necessarily have to ask themselves -- maybe they have their own pro bono DNA experts advising them?

[TheCruncher]

the Millers are fully entitled to their views , but in the cold light of day can i suggest they ask themselves , is it truly reasonable to believe with out doubt , that the the injuries to both victims were achieve by the same weapon .

If they feel that the above is beyond reasonable doubt ,

then they should ask themselves just how unlikely is it that David's DNA was not present on the murder weapon , when he had been repeatedly beaten with it ...........

Wasn't it reported that the gardener cleaned the hoe?

Wouldn't that remove all DNA?

[Chetzee]

the Millers are fully entitled to their views , but in the cold light of day can i suggest they ask themselves , is it truly reasonable to believe with out doubt , that the the injuries to both victims were achieve by the same weapon .

If they feel that the above is beyond reasonable doubt ,

then they should ask themselves just how unlikely is it that David's DNA was not present on the murder weapon , when he had been repeatedly beaten with it ...........

Wasn't it reported that the gardener cleaned the hoe?

Wouldn't that remove all DNA?

quite obviously not , as hannah Dna , along with 2 other persons dan were found on it ! but not david's ... go figure !

[subterminalvelocity]

The RTP as with many Khon Thai are mae mee kwam sarmarth.

That's incompetent.

Their lack of education, training, diligence, and accountability will keep the truth buried.

I didn't mention the corrupt liars they are also.

If you've lived here for some time you'll understand.

To the mods, you'll remember me; just stop banning me.

It's a tragedy, principally due to the RTP's incompetence the truth will be unknown.

For the families, no-one can possibly understand their anguish losing a child, brother, sister, compounded by the mass of uncertainty.

I don't doubt the B2 had a case to answer but the ruling elite sure choked any transparency.

What's come of the original investigator Panya, Fresh Milk, and his uneducated bum Uncle Mon?

The "key" lies with former commander Panya.

Does anyone know of his whereabouts?

[Baerboxer]

I get the feeling that the Miller family were "fed a story" that convinced them of the B2's guilt...and this was done outside the course of legal process.....now that they are faced with condoning a death penalty on what to the whole world is an unsatisfactory trial, the seeds of doubt have been sewn.

The "whole world" - a tad exaggerating. Do you think many outside Thailand's expat community, some in the UK, and some who follow certain social media sites are interested, informed or particularly bothered?

I suggest the vast majority of the world's population won't even be aware of this case.

Those that followed the investigation subsequent trial will have formed an opinion. But hardly the whole world. And, unlikely to change anything.

The British authorities won't release the information they provided to the breaved families in seems; and now the two families appear to have different views.

The only sure things are that the real truth of all that happened on that fateful night is unlikely to be revealed; and nothing will change as a result of this case.

I live in England, and most people I know are fully aware of this case, it has been widely publicised here.

Really. I read the BBC reports and one or two newspapers. When I ask my English friends, some know a lot and have been following, some recognize it more vaguely others not really. German and French friends, some know of it, use words like terrible, awful, third world but that's about it.

Rightly or wrongly, these things, like lots of atrocities simply go off people's radar rather quickly. Especially when there is nothing they can do about it, it doesn't concern them directly and is far away.

[Krenjai]

Odd that Mr Miller has suddenly spoken out after Laura's very truthful and sad facebook post.

I wonder, with all respect - did the Millers accept any compensation?

Mods, if this is over the top - delete it.

The article from the Jersey Evening Post, from which the quote in the OP originates, is dated 9.00am on 10th January. So likely that he made his comments the day before, if not earlier. A poster on an earlier thread had this as a link shortly after publication, so the date looks correct.

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2016/01/10/there-has-been-enough-death-family-of-murdered-david-miller-say-they-dont-endorse-death-penalty-for-his-killers/

So might the comments of Mr Miller predate those of Laura?

When were the facebook comments posted? I seem to recall around the 11th / 12th, but could be wrong.

That link and this news was already posted here on the 10th, it is old news, and came out on the same day after Laura made her FB comments!

Why this is reported as some sort of breaking news beats me! It is load of crap!

[smotherb]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Some argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but it does serve at least two good purposes: 1) tax payer expenses for incarceration are lessened and 2) the perp will never do it again

Actually number ! is misleading, because in places like the US people are on death row for years and years and the cost is much higher than normal imprisonment.

..and number 2 - well you are assuming they did it in the first place.

#1 depends upon how long on death row and how much that costs more than genpop, if any.

The fact they stay on death row for numerous appeals tends to diminish the arguments that an innocent person may be executed.

#2 of course, they were sentenced to death—guilt or innocence isn’t the point, is it?

People are incarcerated for being convicted of a crime and not whether or not they were guilty.

[smotherb]

it doesn't surprise me that the backpacker families are getting flack from the internet david millers father says he believes the b2 are guilty but he doesn't believe in the death penalty personally I believe if he lived in Thailand he would understand the situation better and possibly come up with a not guilty verdict .

I'm sure he has been better informed about the investigation concerning his son's murder than anyone living in Thailand and posting on this forum.

Do you mean informed by the RTP?

Maybe you could tell us who informed YOU.

Let me guess, Andy Halls twitter?

I'll wager the victims' families were also informed by your marvelous Brit cops

[Dogmatix]

Good for him for opposing the death penalty.

But I wonder what it was that made him so sure they are guilty. Could it have been the inadmissable confessions under duress, or perhaps the one page of scrawl from police pathologists alleging a DNA match that was accomplished in record time omitting key parameters (according to Dr Pornthip and Jane Taupin, not to mention the perfect textbook investigation and the impeccable blemish free reputation of the BiB, prosecutors and courts?

He must know that with such shoddy prosecution evidence and the failure to advise the accused of their rights combined the prosecution's refusal to show its evidence to the defence before the trial, the case would have been thrown out long before it ever got near a UK court.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Dogmatix

[smotherb]

smotherb said, "Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened."

sjaak327 said, "I think the one you quoted isn't going to rethink his position on the death penalty based on your post. Your first argument isn't an argument of course, and defies logic. Your second argument isn't very strong either and in the case of Thailand pretty much inconsequential, the savings would be minimal. In any case, that could never be a reason for the death penalty."

Neither was an argument, they were simple statements of fact. The person executed will never commit a future crime and even in Thailand, taxpayer expense would be lessened if you do not have to house, feed, and guard them as long.

I really don't expect any of you to rethink your position on the death penalty, but if you are looking for unicorns, you need to look elsewhere.

[sjaak327]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Some argue the death penalty is not a deterrent, but it does serve at least two good purposes: 1) tax payer expenses for incarceration are lessened and 2) the perp will never do it again

Actually number ! is misleading, because in places like the US people are on death row for years and years and the cost is much higher than normal imprisonment.

..and number 2 - well you are assuming they did it in the first place.

#1 depends upon how long on death row and how much that costs more than genpop, if any.

The fact they stay on death row for numerous appeals tends to diminish the arguments that an innocent person may be executed.

#2 of course, they were sentenced to deathguilt or innocence isnt the point, is it?

People are incarcerated for being convicted of a crime and not whether or not they were guilty.

One would certainly hope people convicted are actually guilty ! Of course in the case that it is proven they are not, at least in the absence of the death penalty, these people can be freed, and no innocent has been put to death.

Therefore in the case of innocence, your second argument is ridiculous. Innocent people do not need to be prevented from doing something again, plain and simple.

[smotherb]

Their grief must be overwhelming and they just want to be able to move on. If they reject the guilty verdict then they cannot do that. I understand that but then why even agree to be interviewed about it?

Great point. A not guilty verdict would not bring bring closure, but finding a way to accept the guilty verdict would achieve closure. Wishing B2 would not be executed, may be one way to help accept the verdict.

[sjaak327]

Their grief must be overwhelming and they just want to be able to move on. If they reject the guilty verdict then they cannot do that. I understand that but then why even agree to be interviewed about it?

Great point. A not guilty verdict would not bring bring closure, but finding a way to accept the guilty verdict would achieve closure. Wishing B2 would not be executed, may be one way to help accept the verdict.

I surely hope that they don't reject the guilty verdict just so they can have closure. I for one would not accept that innocent people would be put away for life for something they didn't do. I would pressure the Thai authorities into bringing the real murderers to trail, that would be the only closure I would hope for and accept.

[sjaak327]

smotherb said, "Ah yes, the world is not perfect and that is never acceptable. Aside from the fact that a perfect legal system has never been and most probably never will be achieved, how acceptable is world hunger, genocide, religious persecution, etc. ad infinitum. We live in an imperfect world. I think you need to rethink more than your opposition to the death penalty.

Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime. No matter whether the person convicted was guilty or not, tax payer incarceration expenses will still be lessened."

sjaak327 said, "I think the one you quoted isn't going to rethink his position on the death penalty based on your post. Your first argument isn't an argument of course, and defies logic. Your second argument isn't very strong either and in the case of Thailand pretty much inconsequential, the savings would be minimal. In any case, that could never be a reason for the death penalty."

Neither was an argument, they were simple statements of fact. The person executed will never commit a future crime and even in Thailand, taxpayer expense would be lessened if you do not have to house, feed, and guard them as long.

I really don't expect any of you to rethink your position on the death penalty, but if you are looking for unicorns, you need to look elsewhere.

"Besides, even if the person executed was not the perp, they will never commit a future crime."

The point here is that innocent people would not have to be prevented from commiting a crime in the future..... You would prevent guilty people from commiting a crime in the future, not innocent people.

Yes it is a fact that people executed unjustly would never be able to commit a future crime, but I honestly think that this fact is one of the most clear reasons to be against the death penalty.

Edited January 20, 2016 by sjaak327

[whitemouse]

Good for him. The death penalty should be opposed in all circumstances.

Ummm..you're actually wrong there.

No one has a right to take human life.

It's time we grow out of barbaric, stone age 'eye for eye' times.