Growing Makua in Thailand

[chownah]

Tim207,

I planted some Makhua Yaw (long eggplant) seeds in February too. I planted mine directly out in my garden in the soil which has been organically gardened for 4 years and the soil is excellent...and where they get full sun all day. They germinated in about 7 days or so just like yours. They stayed really really small and hardly grew at all for about two or three weeks just like yours....I was actually sort of giving up on them thinking that they were permanently stunted and would never amount to anything even if they did start growing.....then.....they started to grow and now they are growing really fast....the growth is compact with big leaves but staying short...just like yours!!! I don't know why they all suddenly started to grow....maybe this is just the way they grow in the tropics...I've never seen anything like it before.

Sorry I didn't keep better records..I don't remember what day in Feb. I planted or how old they were when they started to grow. I really don't enjoy keeping records which is definitely a weakness of mine and kudos to those who do.

Chownah

P.S. One of the plants has viscious thorns running down the upper surface of the leaves...clearly a genetic difference from all the others....I'm wondering what its fruit will be like.

Chownah

Edited April 12, 2007 by chownah

[Tim207]

Tim, have you tried using your pots as mini greenhouses,all you need is some coathanger size wire about 2 foot long ,bend a couple into a U shape to fit the pot ,then just slip an old shopping bag ,freezer bag ,etc over the top to make a hat then a rubber band around the top of the pot to keep it in place,a few pinholes in the plastic bag and you have a mini greenhouse which doesnt require much water as the evaporating water drips back into the pot after condensing on the plastic.

To water just place the pot in a container of water, this way you get no spore carrying water on the leaves of your seedlings and the condensed water returning is pure.

Good for germinating seeds and growing seedlings,they germinate quicker and grow really fast, just make sure you harden your seedlings in partial shade for a few days after removing the bags. Results in strong healthy plants ready to plant out or pot on.

That is a great idea. I may incorporate that into my next Thai foray. Currently I am in the US using a mini greenhouse with 72 slots that came complete with pete pellets to start the plants. The cost of the kit ( 140 baht approx) was less than the pete sepparately so here your idea is unnecessary but I never saw the same types of things in Thailand that are available here. I am not sure what is the more important factor in my better results here. It could be the greenhose, the pete or a combination.

Whatever it is, I am very pleased. I also put long beans in the greenhouse and got 100% germination plus 4 inch growth within 3 days of planting. Last year I put them in the ground and only got 25% germination and about 8 foot growth over the summer but no beans.

[Tim207]

Tim207,

I planted some Makhua Yaw (long eggplant) seeds in February too. I planted mine directly out in my garden in the soil which has been organically gardened for 4 years and the soil is excellent...and where they get full sun all day. They germinated in about 7 days or so just like yours. They stayed really really small and hardly grew at all for about two or three weeks just like yours....I was actually sort of giving up on them thinking that they were permanently stunted and would never amount to anything even if they did start growing.....then.....they started to grow and now they are growing really fast....the growth is compact with big leaves but staying short...just like yours!!! I don't know why they all suddenly started to grow....maybe this is just the way they grow in the tropics...I've never seen anything like it before.

Sorry I didn't keep better records..I don't remember what day in Feb. I planted or how old they were when they started to grow. I really don't enjoy keeping records which is definitely a weakness of mine and kudos to those who do.

Chownah

P.S. One of the plants has viscious thorns running down the upper surface of the leaves...clearly a genetic difference from all the others....I'm wondering what its fruit will be like.

Chownah

I planned to keep detailed records but things went so slow that I put it off under the assumption that I would sit down and write it out "tomorrow". It was always just one more small change that was easy to remember. Months down the road all those little easily remembered things have blurred and I am wishing I had been more disciplined.

Interesting to see you had a growth spurt also. One of my excuses for bad record keeping was the pathetic results I was getting, until of course the leaves were as big as my hand one morning. Now that you have pointed it out I am going to put a notebook next to the greenhouse and do this right.

[Pond Life]

Bt,

In your post on night watering, blossom end rot, calcium uptake, you mentioned that hoeing could play a part in blossom end rot, can you give more details or post a link to the article ?

Ta

[btate]

Pond Life

Most of the family, tomatoes, eggplants, potates, have root structure near the surface. Hoeing cuts or disturbs these near surface roots. A couple of things can happen, diseases entering through a damaged root, loss of nutrient due to root damage and as one member found out, after someone hoed around his plants, they can fall over from lack of support.

Ozzydom

What a neat idea. I've been fooling around with some sheet plastic to prevent flooding of my starters. (we got over two inches of rain in the last 48 hours, some T-storms and a period of several hours of steady rain. How do I know this? I've got a tub that I mix dirt in that sits beside my tomatoes, this morning it had approx. two inches of water in it. Admitedly a crude rain gauge but works for me.

On another note: this morning on checking the starters I found one makua with leaf miners at work

I am very glad I started really small, I would be thoroughly depressed If I had several hundred plants going.

[ozzydom]

Pond Life

Most of the family, tomatoes, eggplants, potates, have root structure near the surface. Hoeing cuts or disturbs these near surface roots. A couple of things can happen, diseases entering through a damaged root, loss of nutrient due to root damage and as one member found out, after someone hoed around his plants, they can fall over from lack of support.

Ozzydom

What a neat idea. I've been fooling around with some sheet plastic to prevent flooding of my starters. (we got over two inches of rain in the last 48 hours, some T-storms and a period of several hours of steady rain. How do I know this? I've got a tub that I mix dirt in that sits beside my tomatoes, this morning it had approx. two inches of water in it. Admitedly a crude rain gauge but works for me.

On another note: this morning on checking the starters I found one makua with leaf miners at work

I am very glad I started really small, I would be thoroughly depressed If I had several hundred plants going.

Yes btate, as you would realise,the plastic also prevents washout in a rain storm and also stops critters gobbling up all your hard work.

[chownah]

Pond Life

Most of the family, tomatoes, eggplants, potates, have root structure near the surface. Hoeing cuts or disturbs these near surface roots. A couple of things can happen, diseases entering through a damaged root, loss of nutrient due to root damage and as one member found out, after someone hoed around his plants, they can fall over from lack of support.

This link:

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/0...010137ch26.html

talks alot about tomato roots and gives different ideas about hoeing....some of the experiences it describes conclude that deep hoeing around tomatos can be beneficial but they do not make an across the board recommendation to do that and they say that different climates and soil types might give different results.

I guess from what you have said this should apply to makhua too....but I don't know. I try to use mulch to control weeds because then you don't have to hoe and the mulch also assures that surface soil stays moist right up to the surface which should at least in theory increase the volume of soil usable by the root system. Also, the mulch eventually breaks down increasing the organic matter in the soil.

According to the link maybe I should stop mulching my tomatoes and start hoeing them (and I guess this would go for my makhua too according to what you have said about them being in the same family) so maybe I'll try doing a few both ways and see what shakes.

Chownah

P.S. I just went out and looked and the same site has a section on eggplant, pepper, and lots of other vegetables too.....it doesn't have potato however.

Chownah

Edited April 12, 2007 by chownah

[btate]

just another 'star' for MF's idea of planting in buckets.. No hoeing (no Mr. Imus), reduced damages from weeding with a machine, a convenient method of moisture measurement, less water using a drip system, less soil born insects and disease. etc. etc.

I just found a source nearby for 17 liter black pails for 35 baht new. I bought a few to see how they work, if OK I can probably reduce that cost with negotiation.

Bt

EDIT: BTW thanks for the link

Edited April 12, 2007 by btate

[Maizefarmer]

BT

I know a source for 25l @ Baht40 - oh, and Imus got his marching orders this morning PC time - he's out for good, show and all (very apologetic on Fox last night)

MF

[btate]

UPDATE:

On 13 March I whacked the one plant that MF suggested. Today, 35 days later, I got the first fruit off of that plant. The fruit was 3.75 cm. Additionally it looks like this plant has twice as many flowers as any of the other plants.

I think on the next batch, which I hopefully have better luck with - i.e. not lose more than 50% , I will prune some of them once they start producing fruits. It will be an interesting experience, my thinking is that the main stalk is very strong on the second go-around and provides better nutrition to the new leaves and fruits.

Only an observation, but interesting anyway. As we've not yet decided whether we will stay in this specific location it is small test time while I'm deciding/planning on long term future prospects.

Bt

[Somtham]

UPDATE:

On 13 March I whacked the one plant that MF suggested. Today, 35 days later, I got the first fruit off of that plant. The fruit was 3.75 cm. Additionally it looks like this plant has twice as many flowers as any of the other plants.

I think on the next batch, which I hopefully have better luck with - i.e. not lose more than 50% , I will prune some of them once they start producing fruits. It will be an interesting experience, my thinking is that the main stalk is very strong on the second go-around and provides better nutrition to the new leaves and fruits.

Only an observation, but interesting anyway. As we've not yet decided whether we will stay in this specific location it is small test time while I'm deciding/planning on long term future prospects.

Bt

How high up the plant did you whack it? Did you leave any branches at all? The prices are so low here now that this may be a good time to get my plants standing tall again a month down the road. Also give me a chance to get some weed control in place.

rgds

[btate]

UPDATE:

On 13 March I whacked the one plant that MF suggested. Today, 35 days later, I got the first fruit off of that plant. The fruit was 3.75 cm. Additionally it looks like this plant has twice as many flowers as any of the other plants.

I think on the next batch, which I hopefully have better luck with - i.e. not lose more than 50% , I will prune some of them once they start producing fruits. It will be an interesting experience, my thinking is that the main stalk is very strong on the second go-around and provides better nutrition to the new leaves and fruits.

Only an observation, but interesting anyway. As we've not yet decided whether we will stay in this specific location it is small test time while I'm deciding/planning on long term future prospects.

Bt

How high up the plant did you whack it? Did you leave any branches at all? The prices are so low here now that this may be a good time to get my plants standing tall again a month down the road. Also give me a chance to get some weed control in place.

rgds

I cut just below the leaves on all branches, must have been 18 20 in high when I was done. Not a lot taller now but much bushier and strong healthy looking leaves. Also have multiple buds off a single stem which is new also.

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

Thats great btate - height is a secondary issue, volume and foilage density is the first and most important issue - this is directly related to secondary branch developement and therefore oppurtunity for bud/flower developement (because thats where they grow - not on the primary stem which is related to height).

Personally I do not cut back or prune untill around 12 plus months are up - unless the plant is damaged, in which case their is more to be gained by removing damaged growth (which just serves to act as an open door for more damage to the plant).

If you want, a little more fertilser at this stage will boost bud/flower development.

MF

[btate]

Thats great btate - height is a secondary issue, volume and foilage density is the first and most important issue - this is directly related to secondary branch developement and therefore oppurtunity for bud/flower developement (because thats where they grow - not on the primary stem which is related to height).

Personally I do not cut back or prune untill around 12 plus months are up - unless the plant is damaged, in which case their is more to be gained by removing damaged growth (which just serves to act as an open door for more damage to the plant).

If you want, a little more fertilser at this stage will boost bud/flower development.

MF

Yep, fertilized yesterday with the watering. Plant really looking strong and healthy.

thanks for the tip on whacking it, 1000% better looking and lots of flowers/baby fruits

Bt

[chownah]

I'm wondering how the makhua adventures are going. Is the price rising? Are yields holding up in this heat?

My makhua yaw (long eggplant) which I planted in February is starting to bloom now. If you remember I was concerned that they were stunted when they first emerged...I planted it directly in the garden and only had to transplant a few to even out the row. Even those I transplanted in the hot weather did well except for one that died right away. Some plants are seriously lagging behind though (and not the transplanted ones, surprisingly) so I'm wondering what's up with them....I think they'll make it ok but probably just be smaller...time will tell.... I noticed that something was chewing on one of the plants...I looked on the bottom side of a leaf and didn't find the culprit but did find a few aphids which I washed off with a hose I happened to have in my hand...and made a mental note that I should keep an eye on this and maybe get out the dish detergent spray...but as luck would have it, today I noticed a lady bug on one of these plants and my experience is that once I see the first lady bug the problem is well in control....I'll keep an eye on how it goes and take action if necessary.

Chownah

Edited April 24, 2007 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Baht 13.50 or last Friday at Gateway and Khorat

Yields are dropping.

[Somtham]

Baht 13.50 or last Friday at Gateway and Khorat

Yields are dropping.

Can still buy retail in KPP for B5/kg at the market. 10kg bag for B50. My wife says that makua grow so well in KPP that anybody with 1 sq meter of land plants one. I believe there is just a glut of mukua in KPP and may not be the right place to make a go of it. On the other hand makua puang (sp?) sells for B30/kg and also is very easy to grow here. We have about 10 plants, thanks to birds spreading seed, and we may plant some more.

Maize - any experience with makua puang?

rgds

[Maizefarmer]

Baht 13.50 or last Friday at Gateway and Khorat

Yields are dropping.

Can still buy retail in KPP for B5/kg at the market. 10kg bag for B50. My wife says that makua grow so well in KPP that anybody with 1 sq meter of land plants one. I believe there is just a glut of mukua in KPP and may not be the right place to make a go of it. On the other hand makua puang (sp?) sells for B30/kg and also is very easy to grow here. We have about 10 plants, thanks to birds spreading seed, and we may plant some more.

Maize - any experience with makua puang?

rgds

I have 0.5 rai of Makua Puang. Yes, the price is higher.

I was waiting for someone to mention this ...... there is down side: kilos produced per rai, per acre, per hectare (or whatever) are significantly less than makua, meaning that what is earn't per unit area for each crop is much the same.

My experiance (emphasize - my experiance) is that it balances out more or less.

However, there may well be an argument suppporting Makua Paung over Makua with limited space and the time to give attention to to it (as it does require more time and input to grow).

My problem is the cold. I'm at the base of a mountain and we are the first to get frost in this area (which we get every winter here). They do not tolerate frost well at all. So for me it's a limited option.

MF

[chownah]

What's makhua puang?

[Pond Life]

Makhua Puang are the small green ones, look like pea's.

Often get them in green curry, little bitter.

[Roy Jing]

Does anyone know the ideal spacing that makhua puang would be planted if grown commercially? We've got a few in our garden in Sydney and in 6 months they have grown from nothing to 2.5 metres high and are spreading out 2 - 3 metres in all directions.

Should these plants be pruned to try and encourage more dense foliage, or just left to grow on there own, as we have done?

Roy

[chownah]

Around here (Chiangrai) makhua puang grows wild. Plants just seem to sprout up here and there and if you know what they look like just let a few of them grow. My wife says that the people who sell it in the market sometimes don't actually grow it but they just sort of make the rounds of the odd pieces of land where its growing on its own and pick it to sell....I don't think she really knows if this is what they do but anyway she says they cost about 2 baht for about 100 grams at the market.

[Somtham]

...edit(as it does require more time and input to grow). ...edit

MF

Maize - which makua are you referring to in this statement?

Does the makua puang plant last around 3 years like the seua? Ours seem to dry up and die after one harvest. Maybe inflicted by the same fungus in the soil as you've mentioned before.

rgds

[Maizefarmer]

Okay - I'm no expert on them, but heres my take on Makua Paung:.

In reply tomembers questions:

1) Yes -Makua Paung are the small green berries that you find in a number of Thai dishes - often spicy fish, lemon chicken and currie type foods.

2) The plants will grow and grow and grow - 3m high and 4m diameter is quite possible.

So why are they "difficult" to cultivate? Well, it's not so much a case of been difficult to cultivate - plant it, leave it and it will grow. What will happen though is that the larger it gets, the harder and more bitter the berries get, to the point that they become unpalatable. You then have no option but the cut it down and re-plant.

You can trim them back - back unlike the makua plants, as they regrow the main stem gets thicker and thicker, with less and less secondary growth, which over time results in less and less berries.

Thirdly - they go through what is for lack of a better definition a "dry" season, usualy around late July early August thru to November - during which time you will get very little to no berries at all.

They are susc.eptiable to the same soil pathogens and fungus's as are maukua.

They do however require less water.

Lastly, a wholefield full of them looks good, but you would not be able to sell it all. People buy and use Makua Paung insmall quantities - go down to the market and you will find them sold in small packets/qauntities. i.e. you will not be able to sell most of what you cultivate, only because they are never used in any quantity other than about a handful per large resturant sized pot full of food.

I pick about 50 kilo's a month (thats a huge amount of makua paung berries) from 0.5rai to have to sell - I may sell 50 - 60% of that - there just isn;t the market to sell more than that.

Buy all means plant a few plants each year , and when they start to die off or get too big start planting a few more - but don't try to make a commercial project out them alone, it won't pay off.

Lastly, they do not tolerate frost, and cold weather brings them to a standstill (not really appicable down south).

Thats pretty much all I know about them.

MF

[Somtham]

Okay - I'm no expert on them, but heres my take on Makua Paung:.

In reply tomembers questions:

1) Yes -Makua Paung are the small green berries that you find in a number of Thai dishes - often spicy fish, lemon chicken and currie type foods.

2) The plants will grow and grow and grow - 3m high and 4m diameter is quite possible.

So why are they "difficult" to cultivate? Well, it's not so much a case of been difficult to cultivate - plant it, leave it and it will grow. What will happen though is that the larger it gets, the harder and more bitter the berries get, to the point that they become unpalatable. You then have no option but the cut it down and re-plant.

You can trim them back - back unlike the makua plants, as they regrow the main stem gets thicker and thicker, with less and less secondary growth, which over time results in less and less berries.

Thirdly - they go through what is for lack of a better definition a "dry" season, usualy around late July early August thru to November - during which time you will get very little to no berries at all.

They are susc.eptiable to the same soil pathogens and fungus's as are maukua.

They do however require less water.

Lastly, a wholefield full of them looks good, but you would not be able to sell it all. People buy and use Makua Paung insmall quantities - go down to the market and you will find them sold in small packets/qauntities. i.e. you will not be able to sell most of what you cultivate, only because they are never used in any quantity other than about a handful per large resturant sized pot full of food.

I pick about 50 kilo's a month (thats a huge amount of makua paung berries) from 0.5rai to have to sell - I may sell 50 - 60% of that - there just isn;t the market to sell more than that.

Buy all means plant a few plants each year , and when they start to die off or get too big start planting a few more - but don't try to make a commercial project out them alone, it won't pay off.

Lastly, they do not tolerate frost, and cold weather brings them to a standstill (not really appicable down south).

Thats pretty much all I know about them.

MF

Maize - once again thanks for the insite on growing these guys. I think I'll just let the birds keep planting what they want.

rgds

[btate]

Bit of an observation for you:

MF's style of using buckets properly drained is worth following. Wed I left for Bangers at 10 AM and returned yesterday at 3:30 PM. In the interim we had about 3 - 3.5 inches of rain. The couple of makua plants drained as advertised. On the other hand I've also planted some tomatoes, basically in the black cheapo pots you find everywhere. These pots have large drain facility in the bases.

Two of my tomatoes had about 2 inches of standing water on top of the soil when I returned. I use the same basica regimine when potting both plants, a handful of 3/4" crush in the bottom of the pot then the soil and manure mix. The bottom drain holes plug, so will 'drill' side drains.

I also noted that one of the makua was severely damaged by something heating holes in the leaves. No sign of the critter responsible. The plethora of bugs here continues to amaze. With a constant breeze and the multitude of differing fruits around it is easy to see how they migrate from one food source to another.

I keep getting comments on how good the makua are from family members. I do know they taste great in the curry the Ms. makes, maybe its just my pride... or maybe because they are straight from the plant, that makes the taste better.

The current batch of starters survived under my makshift shelter, so that's a plus for me...... These guys are going to get a heavy dose of Actara. Then we'll see who gets to 'eat' the makua.

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

Actara is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of Actara that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is.

MF

[btate]

Actara is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of Actara that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is.

MF

Finally found the Actara!.... Comes in individual packets for us small fry which is good at this stage. Actara 25 WG, whatever that means in 2 gram packets.

With your admonition of not using too much I'm curious if the instructions I got from the vendor are correct. He claims one packet in a big bucket (paint pail) is the correct mix.

Would like your input as to whether this is your recco.

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

Nope, that sounds far too concentrated - here the instructions as they are from the Actara website:

Application

Actara offers growers flexible application options and can be applied by ground, air or through irrigation systems (for potatoes only). Applications using sufficient water to provide thorough and uniform coverage of the foliage provide the most effective insect control. Follow label guidelines for minimum water volumes for each crop. In situations when a dense canopy exists and/or pest pressure is high, use greater water volumes. Do not make applications if conditions exist that would prevent proper coverage.

Coverage

Thorough coverage is necessary to achieve Actara’s maximum efficacy. Once applied in a uniform and thorough manner, Actara’s active ingredient is absorbed by the leaves and distributed translaminarly and systemically.

Adjuvants

Using a spray adjuvant may improve coverage, but it is not required.

Chemigation

Actara may be applied by chemigation only in potatoes. Growers have the choice of application though center pivot, solid set, hand move or moving wheel irrigation systems. Use in any other irrigation system is prohibited. Nonuniform distribution of treated water can result in illegal pesticide residues or lack of effectiveness. Never apply Actara though any irrigation system physically connected to a public water system.

Timing

Actara should be applied before pests reach damaging levels. Growers should conduct careful scouting of their fields and orchards and use economic thresholds to decide when to use Actara.

Consecutive applications

Multiple applications may be necessary to control some pests in certain crops. Be sure not to exceed the maximum application for each crop.

Use rates

Actara is applied at very low rates, ranging from 1.5 to 5.5 ounces per acre. Please refer to the product’s label for further application guidelines.

If you want additional info - go to:

www.syngentacropprotection.com/prod/insecticide/actara

[Somtham]

So a neighbor next to the rice paddy is converting 15 rai of sugar cane to the purple eggplant. Not sure what the Thai makua name is. There is an Ajinomoto factory down the road where he will sell the produce. He planted in single rows spaced 3m apart and plant to plant spacing in the row was 120cm. After 6 months he will replant in rows 150cm over from the current rows. He tilled the land with a Ford, put down a few cups of chicken manure (he also has about 14,000 chickens growing), laid down the irrigation tape, covered it with plastic, and then planted the seedlings. The irrigation tape is gravity fed from a storage tank his wife told me was 15,000 liters which is filled from a catfish pond.

Apparently these guys produce fruit after one month and the plants are good for 7 months. He expects to sell 10kg per plant and pocket ~B6/kg * 10kg/plant for the 7 months. He said he planted 13,000 plants so that works out to B780,000 for the 7 months. Not to shabby.

Has anybody tried to grow these and can you verify the numbers?

Here's a couple pics of his layout. Not in pails but still looks much better than what I've done :-(

rgds