Growing Makua in Thailand

[Maizefarmer]

Btate

You done exactly what I said - that's real healthy makua plant you have there: this stresses the importance of getting the plant off to a good start (leave it open to pest damage while it grows and it becomes difficult to correct the damage - the only way - as said, trim it all back and start again).

U using the insecticide I recomended?

You'll now see a big improvement in the quality of the Makua that grow on that plant compared to last time - watch the size (don't let them get to big 3.5cm - 5cm is just fine).

Well done - you persevered and I think you've finally got there.

I'm back home Saturday (mid-day - can;t wait) - need a week or 2 to get back into routine and then if it's okay by you I'll come by your place sometime last week April for a few hours (?).

That little green bastard under the leaf - type of aphid (sucking insect) hiding from the sun and heat - take a torch out at night time and you'll find him and his buddies chewing away on both sides of the leaves. If you have been watering with Actara you'll find none on the plant - infact you should find nothing at all -exceot the odd lost soul, who'll have his fate sealed within a few hours of taking the first bite of any part of the palnt.

Makua price is on the way up - I'm getting yesterday (Saturday) whole sale price at Gateway Market (the big wholesale market just outside of Bangkok on the North East Highway left hand side about 3 miles from the end of the raised toll road) - Baht 16.30 (up from 12 earlier in the week and expected to go higher)

MF

[btate]

Btate

You done exactly what I said - that's real healthy makua plant you have there: this stresses the importance of getting the plant off to a good start (leave it open to pest damage while it grows and it becomes difficult to correct the damage - the only way - as said, trim it all back and start again).

U using the insecticide I recomended?

I'm back home Saturday (mid-day - can;t wait) - need a week or 2 to get back into routine and then if it's okay by you I'll come by your place sometime last week April for a few hours (?).

That little green bastard under the leaf - type of aphid (sucking insect) hiding from the sun and heat - take a torch out at night time and you'll find him and his buddies chewing away on both sides of the leaves. If you have been watering with Actara you'll find none on the plant - infact you should find nothing at all -exceot the odd lost soul, who'll have his fate sealed within a few hours of taking the first bite of any part of the palnt.

MF

No I have not been using the 'recommended' insecticide... I've been all over this area and so far have been unable to find either... see below... that is about to change.

I think you've mistaken me for Somtham ???? Maybe. To stop by my place for a few hours would be a two day trip for ya. I'm in Makham outside Chantaburi. You are more than welcome though if you insist... lol

As for that little green bastard, I check daily and find no sign of munching. I've looked at a number of sites and am beginning to think its some sort of leaf hopper.. don't know if they do damage at all. NO aphids once I started using an insecticide that enters through the roots.

As I mentioned I've looked extensively for Karate/Proclaim/Actara without a lot of luck. I did find one dealer in Chantaburi town that had something by Syngenta but didn't buy since Syngenta makes a ton of products and wasn't sure.

Now I find this:

After pulling up the Thai site and the Aussie Site, side by side, I managed to find the Thai labels.

Top left..... Karate w Zeon

Top right..... Actara

Middle left...... Karate

Middle right...... Match 050

Bottom left....... Proclaiim

Bottom right..... Curacron

Have no idea what Match 050 or Curacron are nor do I care but thought if others in Thailand were looking the label designs might help.

Will find one of them on the next trip to town. I know that I saw the Karate w Zeon in one store at least.

Glad to have you back!

Bt

EDIT: Unecessary attachment, don't know how it got there... its the Karate label info

KARATE_WITH_ZEON_TECHNOLOGY_INSECTICIDE_Label.pdf

Edited April 9, 2007 by btate

[Maizefarmer]

Btate

I know where you are - I'm up that way for 3 days 2nd part of the month.

I'll bring you some Zeon and some Actrara.

[btate]

Cool. look forward to meeting you. If I can't find the stuff I'll let you know. No sense in carrying stuff around if you don't need to. I would appreciate some seeds from East West if you've got extra laying around. A package of the Tiger if you have them.

Tiger seems to bring a premium here in the local market and have yet to see anthing other than the F1 from East West here.

Rgds

bt

[Maizefarmer]

When I get back, having not been able to see me over Christmas, the ag reps will be queing up to make appointments.

I'll see who's got what seeds - will get you some.

MF

[btate]

Well, with MF's comment about the 'green bastard' being a type of aphid I went searching. Shoulda known, I just can't get enough of this 'farming' stuff. Its been awhile since I spent summers on a farm and have always missed it.

I spent several hours today researching Leaf Hoppers and aphids. Thank God for the internet, I can't imagine what it would take in a regular library. I found that I have possibly two different types of leaf hoppers, or I have an adult and immature family.

What they are is really of little significance other than they are leaf hoppers. Leaf hoppers don't eat the leaves like aphids (thier distant cousins), they suck the sap from the veins of the leaf. Hence I could see no damage to the plants upon cursory examination.

They do however drain the plants energy by sucking the life giving sap in the veins of the leaf. Maybe small but if your contemplating this as a business it will effect your production I'm sure.

I checked my tomato plants as well and guess what, there they were! I've already fought off an attack by leaf miners and thought I was clear....

Nope, it seems that there is an abundance of bugs here in the jungle. I'm surrounded by thousand and thousands of fruit trees and rubber trees. Can you think of a better habitat for bugs.. nope. Its also the reason I've got a lot of different butterflies around. Citrus it seems brings bugs and critters.

I"ve been using a local Thai systemic pesticide that took fine care of the aphids and leaf miners but these leaf hoppers are still here. So, its off to the agri store for some Actara or Karate w Zeon. I WILL win this fight!

One other subject. I am not a botanist or a biology expert at all but it seems that consistent watering at night is very important to the life of the plant. Apparently during the day when the plant is 'growing' the pores of the leaf are open. At night the pores close entrapping the calcium that has been generated during the day. The watering at night allows the system to 'digest' and transport the calcium through the leaves and fruits. Without sufficient water in the evening this function is inhibited somewhat and can result in Bud Rot, Scabs and distorted or split fruit.

It appears that consistant watering regimes are really important if you want defect free fruit.

Man, I never thought I would get this deep when I first starting reading this thread.... I didn't even know what makua was

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

I'll bring some Actara and Zeon up with me end of the month.

Yup - night watering is best - your comments re: calcium are correct - but that aside, it's just far better to water at night - you use less and it lasts longer.

But day or night - an regular established pattern is what most palnts prefer and adapt well to - less stress.

MF

[chownah]

Watering at night with sprinklers has the disadvantage of creating a condition where water can stay on the foliage of your plants for many hours. For some plants this is not a problem and can even be beneficial but for some plants it allows fungus and bacteria to establish on the leaves. This occurs especially where two leaves touch and a film of water develops between the two leaves because the water will take a long time to dry. It is best to not sprinkle these plants...better to put the water directly onto or into the ground (furrow or drip irrigation) and if your system is sprinkling it is best to do this (many people say) in the morning so the water will be sure to dry throughout the day....or even in early afternoon when its hottest so the water evaporates the quickest. This is a bigger issue for those growing vegetables organically than it is for those using chemicals to control diseases.

I'm not sure how important keeping a regular watering schedule is for plants. As long as the soil has enough moisture I don't think it matters to the plant if the water is applied at regular intervals or not. I've never read anywhere that this is important and would appreciate if anyone has a link that talks about this.

[btate]

^ chownah, are you trolling, or just trying to cause confusion? Nowhere in any post I've made on either tomatoes or makua have I even mentioned irrigation by sprinkling. To me its an awful waste of water, even in Thailand.

The only time I use airborne irrigation is when caring for my orchids. All other is by direct method, basically with a watering can at this stage and eventually it will be by drip system.

"I'm not sure how important keeping a regular watering schedule is for plants. As long as the soil has enough moisture I don't think it matters to the plant if the water is applied at regular intervals or not. I've never read anywhere that this is important and would appreciate if anyone has a link that talks about this."

I am not about to go back through the hundreds of links I've read to find them, but, did find several (one might have been the University of Texas?) references to watering and its effects. The idea of the calcium did come from a tomato site though. I think the same site gave the info on water regimines. Google under 'tomato problems' or something such. Be forwwarned that the info is there and it may take you hours to find it.

"This is a bigger issue for those growing vegetables organically than it is for those using chemicals to control diseases."

With this limited test of a few tomatoes and makua I do see that any attempt at organic methods for commercial purposes is basically doomed from the start, without intense capital outlays at the very beginning.

The plethora of bugs and critters available here to 'work' on your plants is indeterminate. In a lot of instances an available remedy for specific bugs won't work on all species of plants and is often disastrous in some cases. I am thinking of tobacco juice as one example. It is renowned as a bug killer/bug rejecting solution. It does however kill tomato plants and egg plants. Another would be using soapy water to get rid of aphids, as this would be a daily task, can you imagine sprayiing under the leaves of your makua on any large scale such as a rai of makua (approx. 700 plants)?

Without a wide array of home remedies or a totally isolated growing environment (think greenhouse with air locks) growing much more than the family can consume is just too wieldy a process to be commercially viable.

Such is my perspective anyway.

Rgds

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

As long as their is sufficient moisture in the soil - yes, you are correct - there is no need to irigate. We are of course talking about irrigation i.e. one irrigates when it is required - that I would have thought is all but obvious to anyone reading this thread.

Wilting stress occurs when energy expened by a plant is equal to, or exceeds soil/water tension (i.e. the drier a soil is the greater it holds onto it's residual mositure and the more difficult it becomes for the plant to extract that moisture).

The greater the ongoing fluctuation in soil/water tension is, the greater the ongoing stress is on a growing plant.

Simple experiment most ag students and ag engineers would have performed in one way or another during the course of their studies:

Take 2 plants - each one in it's own container. Allocate an equal volume of water to each plant - but adopt a differing water pattern.

Plant 1 - give it all the water in one go and no more water for x amount of days (say 3 - 5)

Plant 2 - take it's volume of water, and divide the volume up by x days - and water the plant with x/number of days volume p/day.

Repeat the above exercise over a time period of 1 month

Watch plant growth and developement of both plants over this period of time.

Plant 2's growth/developement will exceed that of Plant 1.

One may wish also to conduct the experiment with 2 Makua plants which have just started to bare flower buds. See which one produces the most fruit. It will be Plant 2.

... and if one is really serious about this experiment, you can use a cheap multimeter to take regualr resistance/ohmage readings.

When you plant the seed, insert 1 piece of copper wire straight down to the base of the container and sticking up above the soil about 3" - 4". Insert a second piece at the edge of the container - pushed to the same depth. Do this with both conatiners. Make sure the soil composition in both containers is the same, and the volume is the same (i.e. same size containers).

Take a Ohm reading once the seeds are planted but before you apply any water. You now have a base referance for each container.

Take readings each day at the same time throughout the duration of the experiment. You will find (which I think is obvious to all) that Container 1 (i.e. Plant 1) will be low the same day watering takes place, and then steadily increase - Container 2's resistance reading will move throughout the experiment time period between an upper and lower level each 24 hours that shouldn't vary by more than around 10%.

It's a Heath Robinson way of doing it, but it's cheap and it's bang on relaible - it's exactly how I do it i.e. using resitance over a fixed distance between 2 probes pushed to the same depth, and repeated at roughly 1 rai square spacings (i.e. 40m x 40m)

Summary - the greater the tension or the more it fluctuates, the less nutrient uptake there is. And in a hot climate like we have in Thailand, it is all the more important ... and of course, if the mositure is there to start with, then there is no need to irrigate (obvious I think).

Best time to irrigate: from 20 years of experiance in this climate we have in Thailand, I have learn't that early evening, thru the night till early morning is best. It gives the water the chance to sink in before the heat of the sun increases evaporation (from 2 rai of corn crop in the heat of Thailand one can loose more than 10 000 litres of water per day - yes, per day - that is how much water can evaporate from a 2 rai soil surface area of corn crop!)

Evaporation losses from irrigation at night compared to day can be as much as 40% - 50% less. Now look at that against energy costs - and multiply it by the number of days you have to irrigate your crop while it matures. Qucikly adds up.

Haven't a clue what it would be from low type veggie or even fruit tree crops (could be higher with fruit trees (?)), proberly not as much, but I'd think the day/night comparison (whatever the volume is), wouldn't be too much different.

As for fungal/bacterial damage occuring from the leaves touching - IF it occurs, weigh up the loss/damage against the extra cost of the extra water/energy required to water during the day, versus using an fungicide. My guess is it's going to be cheaper to invest in fungicide

MF

[btate]

Chownah

Since all my plants are basically in "watch me grow" stages I've lots of time on my hands to do what one does here. Search the net.

So I figured I would give you a hand in finding 'anywhere that mentions the importance of watering.....'

Google 'tomato cracking' and on the first page you will find several references to the impact of watering on tomato plants.

Tomato, eggplant and potato are all members of the Solanumae (Sp?) family. Growing requirements are all similar.

Rgds

Bt

[chownah]

^ chownah, are you trolling, or just trying to cause confusion? Nowhere in any post I've made on either tomatoes or makua have I even mentioned irrigation by sprinkling. To me its an awful waste of water, even in Thailand.

The only time I use airborne irrigation is when caring for my orchids. All other is by direct method, basically with a watering can at this stage and eventually it will be by drip system.

"I'm not sure how important keeping a regular watering schedule is for plants. As long as the soil has enough moisture I don't think it matters to the plant if the water is applied at regular intervals or not. I've never read anywhere that this is important and would appreciate if anyone has a link that talks about this."

I am not about to go back through the hundreds of links I've read to find them, but, did find several (one might have been the University of Texas?) references to watering and its effects. The idea of the calcium did come from a tomato site though. I think the same site gave the info on water regimines. Google under 'tomato problems' or something such. Be forwwarned that the info is there and it may take you hours to find it.

"This is a bigger issue for those growing vegetables organically than it is for those using chemicals to control diseases."

With this limited test of a few tomatoes and makua I do see that any attempt at organic methods for commercial purposes is basically doomed from the start, without intense capital outlays at the very beginning.

The plethora of bugs and critters available here to 'work' on your plants is indeterminate. In a lot of instances an available remedy for specific bugs won't work on all species of plants and is often disastrous in some cases. I am thinking of tobacco juice as one example. It is renowned as a bug killer/bug rejecting solution. It does however kill tomato plants and egg plants. Another would be using soapy water to get rid of aphids, as this would be a daily task, can you imagine sprayiing under the leaves of your makua on any large scale such as a rai of makua (approx. 700 plants)?

Without a wide array of home remedies or a totally isolated growing environment (think greenhouse with air locks) growing much more than the family can consume is just too wieldy a process to be commercially viable.

Such is my perspective anyway.

Rgds

Bt

Btate,

You ask if I'm trolling or just trying to cause confusion.....are there other options or must I pick between these two? I never troll in the farming forum....mostly if I troll I do it in the Bedlam forum where it is allowed to a degree. If you are confused then it might be because you think that my post was meant to specifically address you and your concerns.....it was not meant for you specifically. Be advised that there are many many people who read this thread and I was posting to everyone not specifically to you. When I want to reply specifically to you I will start the post with your name followed by a comma just as I have done in this post. This post is specifically for you although the usual assumption here at TV is that anyone can reply to a post even if it is directed at one particular individual. I hope this has cleared up some of your confusion.

As for the regularity of watering issue. I was getting the impression that there was an idea being put forth that watering at the same time every day was important for plants (generally speaking)and that they 'prefered' that. I have never heard of this and in my experience a plant doesn't really care if it gets watered at the same time of day every day or not....or even if it gets watered every day so long as sufficient water is present in the soil...generally speaking. I think that Maizefarmer agrees with me on this....if sufficient water is available in the soil then you need not water....generally speaking. If he does not agree with this then I hope he will post and say so since I don't want to misrepresent his ideas. At any rate if it is your view that it is important that plants be watered on a rigid schedule then please let me know and I will go google to try to find this information....I'm asking first because I'm probably misunderstanding you and don't want to go on a wild goose chase because of my lack of understanding.

About organic farming. You clearly know very little about its potential and its practice. You doubt that organic farming can be commercially viable....check out this link that tells about an organic rice farming company in the US that farms 12,000 acres organically (about 30,000 rai):

http://www.lundberg.com/

About organic methods.....since you really don't know much about them its probably best to keep an open mind. An example: I never have major aphid problems and this is probably because I do farm organically. An outbreak of aphids is dealt with by spraying a soapy solution....perhaps twice...and then the natural control (usually lady bugs) take over and the problem disappears. If a farmer is aware of what is going on in their fields an infestation of aphids can be caught when only a few plants are involved and spraying is minimal....at least this has always been my experience. I'm not saying that some huge muliple rai outbreak couldn't occur but if it did my guess is that it would happen because the farmer is not monitoring his/her crop.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you to even consider doing organic farming....I'm perfectly happy if you do your farming the way that makes the most sense to you....I just think you should realize that just because you don't know how to successfully farm organically doesn't mean it can't be done....and that it is best to not declare an entire method of farming as "doomed" (your word) when your only experience is very limited (by our own admission).

Chownah

Edited April 10, 2007 by chownah

[ozzydom]

The active ingredient in "tobacco juice " is nicotine disulphate and has been banned in most countries because of its ability to enter the food chain.

Its marvellous how a hyper active Google finger makes some folk into instant organic gardening guru,s.

Simmer down chownah ,surely people can have a point of view without you telling them they are wrong just because you found a website that said so.

[btate]

Chownah

Firstly the emoticon of 'rolling eyes' was as close as I could come to "tongue in cheek" if you know what that means. Since this forum doesn't have a 'sarcasm' emitcon it was close, whatever. AND there are a ton of options.

I think you took my comment out of context re. organic farming being doomed from the start, please read the previous part of the sentence and the following sentence as well. Besides, I believe that on another post I told you that IF and WHEN I do a greenhouse then it is practical to do organic. As I mentioned, it is doable with a substantial capital outlay.

As for doing a billion tons of rice in the USA, it is apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned. The USA experience is a totally different game. They do not, nor do you I suppose - face the incredible amount of bugs that I do living in the middle of Thailand's fruit basket we all have different enemies in this regard. As I recall your more to the north, maybe I'm wrong in this.

Yes, I am NOT an expert on organic farming although I DO know a fair amount and am always learning more since I know of a couple of markets o'seas that I could benefit from in terms of crop production.

I am as aware as the next person when it comes to my plants, be it orchids or veggies. When I spray several days with a soap solution and still have aphics, then my mind says " dumb a find another solution". Pretty simple really, try it and if it doesn't work, bag it. I'm not about to spend any more time on trying to perfect a system that is questionable, in my specific circumstance, to begin with.

My first goal is to see if I can grow a couple of products that are viable commercially. That comes first. If I find/feel that I can, then and only then, will I even begin to look at alternative methods. If I can't grow it using the best available technologies then why bother with alternatives?

As for watering, the assumptioni is: you need to water since there is not enough moisture to fulfill the needs of the target plant. I don't recall saying that you needed to water at the 'same time every day' if that's your inference that's OK too. I did mention that I had come across information regarding the time of day and the reasons why. That one you can surely find on the net if you choose to. As for irrigating at the same time every day it is only logical that if your testing for water retention and keeping records you need some stabilility in recording the times you test and the time you water, if for no other reason than accuracy of your records so your not biasing your info with too many variables. Garbage in Garbage out STS

I know, as all of us that frequent this forum, that you are a great advocate of organic farming. That's good, we should all be aware of alternatives. However, organic farming is a time consuming art form, in my view, that does not address my basic goal of seeing if I can grow something with killing it along the way. BTW have lost half of the first 'test' of makua plants. Lost em due to stupidity and NOT following some of MF's advice. I've had vegetable gardens all over the US and yes, organic basically with one exception that being dusting powder for the tomatoes. Thailand is a totally differnet ball of wax, having tried several times to get tomatoes to grow using all the old standby tricks and failing miserably. Time to search out some advice, AND thats' how I found this thread. In growing things one shoe does not fit all.

If you really want to see some electronic food fights check any orchid thread. There are as many ways to grow orchids as there are people that grow them... lolol

Rgds

Bt

[chownah]

The active ingredient in "tobacco juice " is nicotine disulphate and has been banned in most countries because of its ability to enter the food chain.

Its marvellous how a hyper active Google finger makes some folk into instant organic gardening guru,s.

Simmer down chownah ,surely people can have a point of view without you telling them they are wrong just because you found a website that said so.

Certainly people can have a point of view without me telling them they are wrong....certainly people can have a point of view with me telling them they are wrong. This is a public forum....if people don't want to see disagreement they should not post in a public forum. Posting here comes with the understanding that you will almost assuredly see disagreement. If I think someone is wrong then I will likely tell them when it comes to farming stuff but usually I try to relate what my experience has been and how it doesn't agree with what they are saying. When I post a link to a website it is usually because people don't trust my opinion alone (which is as it should be, everything I say should be greeted with scepticism) so I try to show that there are other people whose views might be considered more autoritative than mine who have the same view as mine.

Please, in the future if you want to tell me to simmer down please do it in a personal message...actually I'm not hot under the collar at all and actually find replying to these sorts of things as sort of depressing...I just try to be helpful and provide information that is accurate and to the point and what I seem to get a lot of here is flack and personal comments. I know I'm a really interesting guy to comment about but I am not the topic of this thread or any other so commenting on me is off topic and I'm sure it is really boring for most members to read and it mostly displays you as someone with a condescending attitude....so.....please just send me a personal message and we can discuss me...and you...to our hearts content.

Sincerely,

Chownah

Edited April 10, 2007 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

The active ingredient in "tobacco juice " is nicotine disulphate and has been banned in most countries because of its ability to enter the food chain.

Its marvellous how a hyper active Google finger makes some folk into instant organic gardening guru,s.

Simmer down chownah ,surely people can have a point of view without you telling them they are wrong just because you found a website that said so.

Certainly people can have a point of view without me telling them they are wrong....certainly people can have a point of view with me telling them they are wrong. This is a public forum....if people don't want to see disagreement they should not post in a public forum. Posting here comes with the understanding that you will almost assuredly see disagreement. If I think someone is wrong then I will likely tell them when it comes to farming stuff but usually I try to relate what my experience has been and how it doesn't agree with what they are saying.

When I post a link to a website it is usually because people don't trust my opinion alone (which is as it should be, everything I say should be greeted with scepticism) so I try to show that there are other people whose views might be considered more autoritative than mine who have the same view as mine.

Please, in the future if you want to tell me to simmer down please do it in a personal message...actually I'm not hot under the collar at all and actually find replying to these sorts of things as sort of depressing...I just try to be helpful and provide information that is accurate and to the point and what I seem to get a lot of here is flack and personal comments. I know I'm a really interesting guy to comment about but I am not the topic of this thread or any other so commenting on me is off topic and I'm sure it is really boring for most members to read and it mostly displays you as someone with a condescending attitude....so.....please just send me a personal message and we can discuss me...and you...to our hearts content.

Sincerely,

Chownah

"I just try to be helpful and provide information that is accurate and to the point and what I seem to get a lot of here is flack & personal comments"

Let me see if I understand this - you really thought I was suggesting one should irrigate when it wasn't needed??

Oh c'mon now, you honestly thought that!! You used that to run off on an academic tangent about night watering that had nothing to do with what was been discussed - and now you want to tell all, you were been - how did you put it "helpful, accurate and to the point".

Oh what rubbish - this is exactly the problem, Chownah - it illustrates perfectly the point Btate was making - your replies often have little to do with the subject at hand, but standout as trumpet blowing. You do it time and time again - you can't see that - are you really saying you missed the point?

It's the same problem you have had with me and with others on this forum - and looking where else you post, I see it's the same way you come to attention elsewhere.

Keep it simple, keep it practical and keep it to the point ... and please - do not f'up my thread.

MF

Edited April 11, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[RamdomChances]

OK guy's try and stay on topic, I see some othe Mod has already been in and cleaned up a few posts.

I started this forum for those of us with an intrest in farming to share theorys, ideas and to try and help each other.

If someone has a theroy/idea/suggestion they are welcome to post it if you don't like it then either ignore it or attack the idea, not the poster.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum...we discuss things. The odd contentious off the wall idea is quite healthy in my opinion as it can spark more debate.

Please don't reply to this post as hopefully it will be the last one "off topic" in this thread.

RC

[Maizefarmer]

Thank's Colin - yes, lets back to the subject.

[RamdomChances]

Please don't reply to this post as hopefully it will be the last one "off topic" in this thread

Thank's Colin - yes, lets back to the subject.

Ok so this is the last one of topic

[chownah]

Watering at night with sprinklers has the disadvantage of creating a condition where water can stay on the foliage of your plants for many hours. For some plants this is not a problem and can even be beneficial but for some plants it allows fungus and bacteria to establish on the leaves. This occurs especially where two leaves touch and a film of water develops between the two leaves because the water will take a long time to dry. It is best to not sprinkle these plants...better to put the water directly onto or into the ground (furrow or drip irrigation) and if your system is sprinkling it is best to do this (many people say) in the morning so the water will be sure to dry throughout the day....or even in early afternoon when its hottest so the water evaporates the quickest. This is a bigger issue for those growing vegetables organically than it is for those using chemicals to control diseases.

I'm not sure how important keeping a regular watering schedule is for plants. As long as the soil has enough moisture I don't think it matters to the plant if the water is applied at regular intervals or not. I've never read anywhere that this is important and would appreciate if anyone has a link that talks about this.

To help get this thread back on topic I thought I would repost this previous post of mine and explain why I posted it since it seems to have raised quite furor.

I posted about the possible problems of night watering because night watering had been brought up in a previous post. Since not only makua but also tomatoes and peppers (and perhaps other crops) have been discussed here I thought that some readers might consider this advise for all crops across the board and so I thought a short post as a heads up about possible problems would be helpful. This information which I posted was not directed as a reply to any one poster here as evidenced by no name being presented at the start of the post. Anyone who can not understand why I would post this in reply to them should realize that I was not replying to them and perhaps that explains their confusion.

I posted about the unimportance of a regular watering schedule because again I thought that readers might have gotten the impression that somehow watering on a strictly regular schedule is in and of itself beneficial....sort of like getting up every morning at the same time is thought to be beneficial for people. I don't know if getting up in the morning at the same time is beneficial for people or not but it is my strongly held opinion that watering plants at the same time of day (or night) is not beneficial in and of itself so long as the plants have adequate moisture in the soil. My suggestion to those who read here is that it is not necessary to water your plants at the same time of day every day and there is no benefit to your plants in doing this.....the thing to focus on is the moisture content of the soil. I'm not going to discuss how to ensure adequate soil moisture since Maizefarmer has already presented some good information and alot of information on how to do this is available on the internet. In the future if someone starts a thread about soil moisture you will probably see me there posting my views and ideas which I have developed from my own personal agricultural experience and from what I have heard and read.

This is why I posted what I did.....I hope in the future I need not explain my motives here in the open forum and that those who want to discuss me or my posts or my posting style will initiate the discussion by sending me a personal message and we can discuss these things at length.

Sincerely,

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

Fair coment - now I am going to ask you to qaulify what you have said, and if not applicable to makua fine - thats a non-issue, but I would appreciate it been put into a context which I can tie down to some relivancew against the background of this thread topic recently, and what gave rise to it as opposed to what appeared to me, to be a somewhat irrelivant contribution.

Watering at night with sprinklers has the disadvantage of creating a condition where water can stay on the foliage of your plants for many hours.

The possibility of fungus growing? - fair enough, as a standalone potential problem - accepted. On balance baring in mind the circumstances that one would take into consideration when making a judgement as to when to water (day or night), can you site an example or scenario in which, not withstanding the risk you highlight, one would/should water only in the day?

For some plants this is not a problem and can even be beneficial but for some plants it allows fungus and bacteria to establish on the leaves.

Some examples of plants, in Thailand, which members could expect this problem to occur?

This occurs especially where two leaves touch and a film of water develops between the two leaves because the water will take a long time to dry. It is best to not sprinkle these plants...better to put the water directly onto or into the ground (furrow or drip irrigation) and if your system is sprinkling it is best to do this (many people say) in the morning so the water will be sure to dry throughout the day....or even in early afternoon when its hottest so the water evaporates the quickest. This is a bigger issue for those growing vegetables organically than it is for those using chemicals to control diseases.

The benefits of direct application as opposed to sprinkler application have been discussed at length and in great detail - both from a theoretical and practical perspective.

I'm not sure how important keeping a regular watering schedule is for plants. As long as the soil has enough moisture I don't think it matters to the plant if the water is applied at regular intervals or not. I've never read anywhere that this is important and would appreciate if anyone has a link that talks about this.

I explained, and qualified what I said, in reply to this question when you raised it earlier. What part of it was not clear, or do you feel needs further explination? I'll do my best.

To help get this thread back on topic I thought I would repost this previous post of mine and explain why I posted it since it seems to have raised quite furor.

??????????????

I posted about the possible problems of night watering because night watering had been brought up in a previous post. Since not only makua but also tomatoes and peppers (and perhaps other crops) have been discussed here I thought that some readers might consider this advise for all crops across the board and so I thought a short post as a heads up about possible problems would be helpful. This information which I posted was not directed as a reply to any one poster here as evidenced by no name being presented at the start of the post. Anyone who can not understand why I would post this in reply to them should realize that I was not replying to them and perhaps that explains their confusion.

I posted about the unimportance of a regular watering schedule because again I thought that readers might have gotten the impression that somehow watering on a strictly regular schedule is in and of itself beneficial....sort of like getting up every morning at the same time is thought to be beneficial for people.

Are you maintaining that a regular watering schedule is not important? I disagree strongly - as said from 6 yrs at school studing ag engineering, 20years of farming xperiance in this hot climate we have in Thailand has both taught and convinced me that regular watering (to maintain as constant a soil/water tension as is practicly possible, is not just important - it is the most important thing for me to do to maximise crop yield potential. Without a hint of sarcasim, I am very interested in why you understand or feel this is "unimportant"?[/i]

I don't know if getting up in the morning at the same time is beneficial for people or not but it is my strongly held opinion that watering plants at the same time of day (or night) is not beneficial in and of itself so long as the plants have adequate moisture in the soil. My suggestion to those who read here is that it is not necessary to water your plants at the same time of day every day and there is no benefit to your plants in doing this.....the thing to focus on is the moisture content of the soil. I'm not going to discuss how to ensure adequate soil moisture since Maizefarmer has already presented some good information and alot of information on how to do this is available on the internet. In the future if someone starts a thread about soil moisture you will probably see me there posting my views and ideas which I have developed from my own personal agricultural experience and from what I have heard and read.

I still cannot understand why or how you got round to been under the impression that my comment regards watering/irrigation, was made immaterial of whether or not there was sufficient moisture in the soil. To use an analogy (which you like to do), it is like saying, if you expect to sudden long journeys with your car, you should fill it up each day - irrespective of how much fuel is im the tank. It just has to be obvious that filling it up is not applicable if the tank is full, or has sufficent fuel in it for the journey. I just cannot understand how you missed that point - it was so obvious ... and then I went on to express why I felt you had "thought" that. Not relivant here so I'm not going down that road - replies to the above questions will be appreciated - again, in as realistic and as practical terms as possible, as one could expect to encounter here in Thailand, and not please, academic theory which correct, would have little practical relivance to we experiance.

This is why I posted what I did.....I hope in the future I need not explain my motives here in the open forum and that those who want to discuss me or my posts or my posting style will initiate the discussion by sending me a personal message and we can discuss these things at length.

On a seperate note, quite unrelated to the subject matter above - no, I do not belive it is acceptable you can post contributions of the sort that have irked members, then expect them to take the issue up with you on those terms. If the forum serves as the platform you wish to use to express a view, then members who disagree with what you said should be entitled to take you to task - using the same platform.

Thanx[/i]

Sincerely,

Chownah

[chownah]

I think that the moisture level in the soil is the important thing in watering crops....not maintaining a fixed schedule of watering. Watering at the same time of day in and of itself is not beneficial to any plant as far as I know.

Anyone who wants to question anything about the topic of discussion please post a reply. Anyone wanting to talk about me or my motives for posting please do so in a personal message and not here in the public forum since these types of discussions are off topic.

Chownah

[bannork]

I think that the moisture level in the soil is the important thing in watering crops....not maintaining a fixed schedule of watering. Watering at the same time of day in and of itself is not beneficial to any plant as far as I know.

Anyone who wants to question anything about the topic of discussion please post a reply. Anyone wanting to talk about me or my motives for posting please do so in a personal message and not here in the public forum since these types of discussions are off topic.

Chownah

The moisture level in the soil is the vital factor and surely the optimum time to maintain that is at night before evaporation due to sunlight begins?

I water our chillies at post 6.00 pm or 5.00 am, I've noticed how quickly in this heat some plants will show signs of wilting after less than 48 hours without water in spite of the soil largely being clay; still by 6.00 am they're looking all bright and perky again after the night's irrigation.

Apart from greater evaporation in the day daytime watering is said to risk leaf burning, though I've yet to see it.

[chownah]

Bannork,

Yeah, I've even tried to induce leaf burning by intentionally watering stuff in the middle of the hottest days and have not been able to create it. I guess I'm lucky to have alot of water which can be applied cheaply so I water at all times of the day but if I had limited water or if the expense was large then for sure it would be evening and perhaps early morning....and of course I would keep everything mulched to the gills so long as the mulch didn't cause problems....which I try to do now anyway.

Chownah

[btate]

OK a couple of points.

In the original post where I "mentioned" I had come across some information re. watering and the uptake of calcium I erred in one respect. Night watering is not recommended, however early evening watering is.

Night watering 'might' cause damage via a fungus. This is NOT due to the water itself and overlapping leaves but rather night bugs carrying a fungus landing to drink and transferring the fungus to the plant. If you water in the early evening most water on the leaves will evaporate. However since we are not talking sprinkler irrigation it does not apply to my situation.

I think I also mentioned that Tomatoes, eggplant and potatoes all come from the same family. I assume since they are in the same family their physiology is very similar. Since there is a dearth of information re. makua I look at the tomatoe as a 1st cousin and look at tomato problems with the idea of transferring the germain info to growing makua. Yes, I'm also doing tomatoes.

Below I've pasted some exerpts from an article published by Utah State University Extension. The authors are: Sherman V. Thompson / Extension Plant Pathologist and Scott C. Ockey / Plant Disease Diagnostician.

In discussing Blossom End Rot ONE of the potential causes is calcium deficiency. They had this to say about it.

"During the day, the pores on the leaves are open and water transpires from them drawing sap into the leaves. Since the fruit do not lose much water by transpiration, they receive little of the calcium-containing sap. At night, the leaf pores close, root pressure forces sap into the plant, and the developing fruit get their share of calcium and other nutrients. If the plant is water stressed at night, the system fails and the fruit receive very little calcium, causing blossom-end rot."

In a section of controls they mention " Do not allow plants to be water stressed at night. "

I water in the evenings out of habit I guess. I thought it was the right thing to do and now with some scientific data backing me up I will continue. The whole idea of fruits not losing water as leaves do during the day makes sense to me. If watering at a time the roots can use the pressure makes for less blotched, split and ugly fruit, I'm all for it.

This is not the only control for blossom end rot, hoeing, overwatering and over fertilizing are also a problem. I keyed on the watering idea as useful for anyone trying to get a vegetable producing to a commercial level. Especially, as most of us have to do during dry season, we are irrigating via some method.

Rgds

Bt

[Maizefarmer]

So I give you an oppurtunity to qualify what you said Chownah - I raise you the very points that concerned me and others in what you said - and what do you do: you come back on the one point and only that was as weak in reality as were your comments made on fungal growth.

Your are right - in reality leaf burning is as likely to present a real world problem as is fungal growth from wet leaves touching eacth other for to long. It can happen but, for me to raise it as an issue in the context of the threads' subject, was as irrelivant as was your fungal comment - and leaf burning also has lots of pages on the internet about it as well.

... still make out you miss the point I and other memembers tried to convey to you? Chance of getting feedback to the rest of the questions I asked you to fill in on, or do I take it you do now accept the point that was been made?

Catch up later folks - got a plane to catch in a few hours - aaah back home on Satruday.

MF

Edited April 11, 2007 by Maizefarmer

[Tim207]

To get us back on topic, here are the results of my small scale test over two months. Comments appreciated.

I planted makhua and prik kee new ( all Aeroplane Brand) around the end of January in clear plastic cups with drainage holes in the bottom. A thin layer of sand followed by dirt from the yard was the only thing used in the cups. The cups were placed under a tree where they received about 1 hour of full sun around 2PM or 3PM. Water was applied twice per day for the first few weeks (until several cups deleloped a green layer of some kind of mold or fungus on the surface). Plants sprouted in 7 to 14 days. After about 4 weeks of very slow growth (4 inches tall, 1 or 2 small set of leaves per plant) I moved to the center of yard where they received full sun until about 3PM. Week 6 I applied fertilizer, sorry I forgot NPK values. The final 2 weeks of the experiment the plants took off. They gained little in height but leaves grew tremendously.

I lost 2 cups to what I believe was fungus rot. Healthy looking plants bent over about a half inch above dirt level then withered and died. I lost 2 cups to father in law picking out weeds after having a few drinks. I also lost 2 cups to a visiting aunt who decided that she wanted to take some of my makhua home (I took that as a compliment).

Attached pictures are at approximately week 8.

Makhua

Prik Kee New

Coming soon- Experiment #2 from the frozen wastelands of the midwest US. Several inches of snow today so luckily I started the plants indoors in a mini greenhouse. 10 days into the experiment using proper methods I have 66% germination of makhua and 75% germination of peppers with 4 inch tall plants. Growth rate seems to be twice that of experiment #1 so far.

[Tim207]

Btate

I know where you are - I'm up that way for 3 days 2nd part of the month.

I'll bring you some Zeon and some Actrara.

######, I would have liked to meet up with you also. I am only about 10 minutes from Btate. Sadly, I am back to work in the US already.

[ozzydom]

OK a couple of points.

In the original post where I "mentioned" I had come across some information re. watering and the uptake of calcium I erred in one respect. Night watering is not recommended, however early evening watering is.

Night watering 'might' cause damage via a fungus. This is NOT due to the water itself and overlapping leaves but rather night bugs carrying a fungus landing to drink and transferring the fungus to the plant. If you water in the early evening most water on the leaves will evaporate. However since we are not talking sprinkler irrigation it does not apply to my situation.

I think I also mentioned that Tomatoes, eggplant and potatoes all come from the same family. I assume since they are in the same family their physiology is very similar. Since there is a dearth of information re. makua I look at the tomatoe as a 1st cousin and look at tomato problems with the idea of transferring the germain info to growing makua. Yes, I'm also doing tomatoes.

Below I've pasted some exerpts from an article published by Utah State University Extension. The authors are: Sherman V. Thompson / Extension Plant Pathologist and Scott C. Ockey / Plant Disease Diagnostician.

In discussing Blossom End Rot ONE of the potential causes is calcium deficiency. They had this to say about it.

"During the day, the pores on the leaves are open and water transpires from them drawing sap into the leaves. Since the fruit do not lose much water by transpiration, they receive little of the calcium-containing sap. At night, the leaf pores close, root pressure forces sap into the plant, and the developing fruit get their share of calcium and other nutrients. If the plant is water stressed at night, the system fails and the fruit receive very little calcium, causing blossom-end rot."

In a section of controls they mention " Do not allow plants to be water stressed at night. "

I water in the evenings out of habit I guess. I thought it was the right thing to do and now with some scientific data backing me up I will continue. The whole idea of fruits not losing water as leaves do during the day makes sense to me. If watering at a time the roots can use the pressure makes for less blotched, split and ugly fruit, I'm all for it.

This is not the only control for blossom end rot, hoeing, overwatering and over fertilizing are also a problem. I keyed on the watering idea as useful for anyone trying to get a vegetable producing to a commercial level. Especially, as most of us have to do during dry season, we are irrigating via some method.

Rgds

Bt

Just to simplify what btate has said,plants are like people ,during the heat of the day the plant sweats from the pores in the leaves.If there is not adequate moisture in the soil the plant wilts just like us suffering dehydration.

[ozzydom]

To get us back on topic, here are the results of my small scale test over two months. Comments appreciated.

I planted makhua and prik kee new ( all Aeroplane Brand) around the end of January in clear plastic cups with drainage holes in the bottom. A thin layer of sand followed by dirt from the yard was the only thing used in the cups. The cups were placed under a tree where they received about 1 hour of full sun around 2PM or 3PM. Water was applied twice per day for the first few weeks (until several cups deleloped a green layer of some kind of mold or fungus on the surface). Plants sprouted in 7 to 14 days. After about 4 weeks of very slow growth (4 inches tall, 1 or 2 small set of leaves per plant) I moved to the center of yard where they received full sun until about 3PM. Week 6 I applied fertilizer, sorry I forgot NPK values. The final 2 weeks of the experiment the plants took off. They gained little in height but leaves grew tremendously.

I lost 2 cups to what I believe was fungus rot. Healthy looking plants bent over about a half inch above dirt level then withered and died. I lost 2 cups to father in law picking out weeds after having a few drinks. I also lost 2 cups to a visiting aunt who decided that she wanted to take some of my makhua home (I took that as a compliment).

Attached pictures are at approximately week 8.

Makhua

Prik Kee New

Coming soon- Experiment #2 from the frozen wastelands of the midwest US. Several inches of snow today so luckily I started the plants indoors in a mini greenhouse. 10 days into the experiment using proper methods I have 66% germination of makhua and 75% germination of peppers with 4 inch tall plants. Growth rate seems to be twice that of experiment #1 so far.

Tim, have you tried using your pots as mini greenhouses,all you need is some coathanger size wire about 2 foot long ,bend a couple into a U shape to fit the pot ,then just slip an old shopping bag ,freezer bag ,etc over the top to make a hat then a rubber band around the top of the pot to keep it in place,a few pinholes in the plastic bag and you have a mini greenhouse which doesnt require much water as the evaporating water drips back into the pot after condensing on the plastic.

To water just place the pot in a container of water, this way you get no spore carrying water on the leaves of your seedlings and the condensed water returning is pure.

Good for germinating seeds and growing seedlings,they germinate quicker and grow really fast, just make sure you harden your seedlings in partial shade for a few days after removing the bags. Results in strong healthy plants ready to plant out or pot on.