How to pay missing UK National Insurance payments from Thailand?

[brewsterbudgen]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

There is certainly no requirement to complete a self-assessment tax return in order to get a state pension.

So, now for another incredibly stupid question from me (I apologise).

I was looking up self assessment tax forms and how to file and they have a section that says that if I earn foreign income then it may need to be taxed under UK law. Is that only if you are resident to the UK and you work abroad for certain parts of the year (e.g. on an oil rig). I assume it would not apply to me? Sorry, just a little confused.

I would recommend emailing HMRC. They are usually quite helpful and will be able to give you definitive answers.

[ianwuk]

Do they have an email address for contact? I just sent them an email through the contact form once I had logged in to my Government Gateway account for the first time (registered one today). When I try to enroll for self assessment tax the web page says that I do not have access. Nothing is ever simple. From my understanding though, my UK residential status now should be non-resident which surely means that I do not need to submit a self-assessment form?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks.

Ian

[KittenKong]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

There is certainly no requirement to complete a self-assessment tax return in order to get a state pension.

They are wrong about the "tie" and residence also. And domicile is irrelevant when it comes to pensions and income tax (unless you are trying to claim "non-dom" exemptions, which are not worth having for most people). And you only need to pay the voluntary contributions until the point where you have 35 years' worth (currently: the figure may be changed by future governments).

[ianwuk]

On the offchance, I also contaced a law firm here in Bangkok about this, Anglo-Thai.

They said this:

If you continue a connection ("Tie") with the UK then it remains both your domicile & residence. Therefore, if you want to remain eligible for a (full) state pension then:

• you must submit annual Self Assessment Forms; and
• pay voluntary national insurance contributions.

By 'tie' they are referring to the fact that I go back to the UK every year for ten days in December to spend Christmas with my family.

They have no idea what they are talking about.

Morons.

There is certainly no requirement to complete a self-assessment tax return in order to get a state pension.

They are wrong about the "tie" and residence also. And domicile is irrelevant when it comes to pensions and income tax (unless you are trying to claim "non-dom" exemptions, which are not worth having for most people). And you only need to pay the voluntary contributions until the point where you have 35 years' worth (currently: the figure may be changed by future governments).

Thank you for the reply KittenKong.

Is it correct also that I do not need to file a self-assessment for tax on foreign earnings too?

Thanks.

Ian

[KittenKong]

Is it correct also that I do not need to file a self-assessment for tax on foreign earnings too?

If you are resident then you should report your UK and foreign earnings. If you aren't resident then you should report your UK earnings, but if you only have UK earnings that aren't subject to tax then then they usually tell you not to bother reporting them unless there is some significant change.

If you have recently left you should probably continue to report everything until they tell you otherwise. If in doubt, ask them.

[ianwuk]

Is it correct also that I do not need to file a self-assessment for tax on foreign earnings too?

If you are resident then you should report your UK and foreign earnings. If you aren't resident then you should report your UK earnings, but if you only have UK earnings that aren't subject to tax then then they usually tell you not to bother reporting them unless there is some significant change.

If you have recently left you should probably continue to report everything until they tell you otherwise. If in doubt, ask them.

I have emailed them to ask for more information. I left the UK about ten years ago now. I was just wondering if/what was applicable to me. I have no UK earnings or property in the UK or anything like that.

Thanks.

Ian

[sandmike]

Ianwuk, I am a long term expat still working outside the UK.

There is no need to report any overseas earnings if you are non resident for tax purposes in the UK, and have not earned any of that money in the UK.

I pay class 3 stamp, annually in arrears, the info on how to send the money is on the HMRC website.

Be aware that this figure of £155 is only if you've paid all of the secondary state pensions (SERPS, etc). Many people will not get the full amount despite having more than 35 years of contributions. The UK papers report on this issue regularly.

The suggestions above about writing to HMRC are undoubtedly the best way forward.

Good luck in your quest, SM

Edited February 8, 2016 by sandmike

[ianwuk]

Ianwuk, I am a long term expat still working outside the UK.

There is no need to report any overseas earnings if you are non resident for tax purposes in the UK, and have not earned any of that money in the UK.

I pay class 3 stamp, annually in arrears, the info on how to send the money is on the HMRC website.

Be aware that this figure of £155 is only if you've paid all of the secondary state pensions (SERPS, etc). Many people will not get the full amount despite having more than 35 years of contributions. The UK papers report on this issue regularly.

The suggestions above about writing to HMRC are undoubtedly the best way forward.

Good luck in your quest, SM

Thank you for the reply SM.

I appreciate your reply. I am waiting for the reply to my forms I recently sent off about paying voluntary NI payments (I ticked class 2 but, as mentioned, it will be probably class 3). I just hope I can then set up payment via Kasikorn bank easy enough and then I can start contributing National Insurance again in case I ever wish to return back to the UK.

Thanks again.

Ian

[rijit]

Interesting

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sandmike]

Ian, if you can get a bank draft in sterling then that should work .. HMRC wanted me to pay either monthly or quarterly and I just ignored that, and send annually in arrears at the end of April.

Here's the HMRC page on payments :-

https://www.gov.uk/pay-voluntary-class-3-national-insurance/overview

[sometimewoodworker]

Ianwuk, I am a long term expat still working outside the UK.

There is no need to report any overseas earnings if you are non resident for tax purposes in the UK, and have not earned any of that money in the UK.

I pay class 3 stamp, annually in arrears, the info on how to send the money is on the HMRC website.

Be aware that this figure of £155 is only if you've paid all of the secondary state pensions (SERPS, etc). Many people will not get the full amount despite having more than 35 years of contributions. The UK papers report on this issue regularly.

The suggestions above about writing to HMRC are undoubtedly the best way forward.

Good luck in your quest, SM

Thank you for the reply SM.

I appreciate your reply. I am waiting for the reply to my forms I recently sent off about paying voluntary NI payments (I ticked class 2 but, as mentioned, it will be probably class 3). I just hope I can then set up payment via Kasikorn bank easy enough and then I can start contributing National Insurance again in case I ever wish to return back to the UK.

Thanks again.

Ian

Don't expect a reply before June or July at the earliest. But if you do get an early reply post here how long it took.

Don't expect to be able to pay from Kasikorn bank easily. HMRC require exact payments. There are fees for receiving money and Kasikorn can't tell you exactly how much will be charged.

Do yourself a favour and do as I suggested and open an IoM account.

Paying voluntary NI has little, or nothing, to do with returning to the UK. It's about getting a UK pension

Edited February 8, 2016 by sometimewoodworker

[ianwuk]

Ianwuk, I am a long term expat still working outside the UK.

There is no need to report any overseas earnings if you are non resident for tax purposes in the UK, and have not earned any of that money in the UK.

I pay class 3 stamp, annually in arrears, the info on how to send the money is on the HMRC website.

Be aware that this figure of £155 is only if you've paid all of the secondary state pensions (SERPS, etc). Many people will not get the full amount despite having more than 35 years of contributions. The UK papers report on this issue regularly.

The suggestions above about writing to HMRC are undoubtedly the best way forward.

Good luck in your quest, SM

Thank you for the reply SM.

I appreciate your reply. I am waiting for the reply to my forms I recently sent off about paying voluntary NI payments (I ticked class 2 but, as mentioned, it will be probably class 3). I just hope I can then set up payment via Kasikorn bank easy enough and then I can start contributing National Insurance again in case I ever wish to return back to the UK.

Thanks again.

Ian

Don't expect a reply before June or July at the earliest. But if you do get an early reply post here how long it took.

Don't expect to be able to pay from Kasikorn bank easily. HMRC require exact payments. There are fees for receiving money and Kasikorn can't tell you exactly how much will be charged.

Do yourself a favour and do as I suggested and open an IoM account.

Paying voluntary NI has little, or nothing, to do with returning to the UK. It's about getting a UK pension

Thanks for the forecast. I have one question please about setting up an IoM account. But it is a silly question. When I am signing up for the instant access account that they offer it asks me for the amount, so I fill that in but it asks for an anticipated deposit date and I am not sure when this will be as I am not sure if Kasikorn will allow me to transfer the money to my new IoM account, assuming I get one.

I am new to this whole thing and so I am finding it a little complex. That is why there is all my questions and I thank you very much for taking the time to reply but am I correct in assuming Kasikorn will allow me to make a direct deposit in to the new IoM account that I get? If they do, do I then get the IoM account details to give to Kaiskorn to allow for the initial deposit to take place once I sign up to Nationwide IoM?

Many thanks.

Ian

[brewsterbudgen]

Do they have an email address for contact? I just sent them an email through the contact form once I had logged in to my Government Gateway account for the first time (registered one today). When I try to enroll for self assessment tax the web page says that I do not have access. Nothing is ever simple. From my understanding though, my UK residential status now should be non-resident which surely means that I do not need to submit a self-assessment form?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks.

Ian

Hi Ian

I've used this email in the past:

[email protected]

Cheers

[jadee]

Ianwuk, I am a long term expat still working outside the UK.

There is no need to report any overseas earnings if you are non resident for tax purposes in the UK, and have not earned any of that money in the UK.

I pay class 3 stamp, annually in arrears, the info on how to send the money is on the HMRC website.

Be aware that this figure of £155 is only if you've paid all of the secondary state pensions (SERPS, etc). Many people will not get the full amount despite having more than 35 years of contributions. The UK papers report on this issue regularly.

The suggestions above about writing to HMRC are undoubtedly the best way forward.

Good luck in your quest, SM

Thank you for the reply SM.

I appreciate your reply. I am waiting for the reply to my forms I recently sent off about paying voluntary NI payments (I ticked class 2 but, as mentioned, it will be probably class 3). I just hope I can then set up payment via Kasikorn bank easy enough and then I can start contributing National Insurance again in case I ever wish to return back to the UK.

Thanks again.

Ian

Don't expect a reply before June or July at the earliest. But if you do get an early reply post here how long it took.

Don't expect to be able to pay from Kasikorn bank easily. HMRC require exact payments. There are fees for receiving money and Kasikorn can't tell you exactly how much will be charged.

Do yourself a favour and do as I suggested and open an IoM account.

Paying voluntary NI has little, or nothing, to do with returning to the UK. It's about getting a UK pension

Thanks for the forecast. I have one question please about setting up an IoM account. But it is a silly question. When I am signing up for the instant access account that they offer it asks me for the amount, so I fill that in but it asks for an anticipated deposit date and I am not sure when this will be as I am not sure if Kasikorn will allow me to transfer the money to my new IoM account, assuming I get one.

I am new to this whole thing and so I am finding it a little complex. That is why there is all my questions and I thank you very much for taking the time to reply but am I correct in assuming Kasikorn will allow me to make a direct deposit in to the new IoM account that I get? If they do, do I then get the IoM account details to give to Kaiskorn to allow for the initial deposit to take place once I sign up to Nationwide IoM?

Many thanks.

Ian

Hi Ian,

That law firm you contacted has completely misinformed you - if you work abroad permenantly and are only spending 10 days or so per year in the UK as you wrote, you are considered non-resident for tax purposes and there is no need to submit annual self assessment forms.

As others have noted, you'll just be paying class 3 rates you can set up a direct debit from an account in the UK hence your need for an IoM account.

Once you set up that account, the most common way to deposit money from your Kasikorn account would be a SWIFT transfer. Nationwide IoM will give you the SWIFT code you need. I haven't used Kasikorn for years but I last used their branch in Siam Paragon mall for a SWIFT transfer in 2006. If you go to a smaller branch they may just refer you to their main office, I'm not sure. I hope this helps.

[ianwuk]

Thank you for the email address Brewster. Ironically I was just given the same one from the UK Future Pensions Group after contacting them.

I already have a UK account set up inside my Kasikorn bank account so I am assuming it worked on the same principle. Thank you for taking the time to reply Jadee.

Regards.

Ian

[sometimewoodworker]

Ianwuk, I am a long term expat still working outside the UK.

There is no need to report any overseas earnings if you are non resident for tax purposes in the UK, and have not earned any of that money in the UK.

I pay class 3 stamp, annually in arrears, the info on how to send the money is on the HMRC website.

Be aware that this figure of £155 is only if you've paid all of the secondary state pensions (SERPS, etc). Many people will not get the full amount despite having more than 35 years of contributions. The UK papers report on this issue regularly.

The suggestions above about writing to HMRC are undoubtedly the best way forward.

Good luck in your quest, SM

Thank you for the reply SM.

I appreciate your reply. I am waiting for the reply to my forms I recently sent off about paying voluntary NI payments (I ticked class 2 but, as mentioned, it will be probably class 3). I just hope I can then set up payment via Kasikorn bank easy enough and then I can start contributing National Insurance again in case I ever wish to return back to the UK.

Thanks again.

Ian

Don't expect a reply before June or July at the earliest. But if you do get an early reply post here how long it took.

Don't expect to be able to pay from Kasikorn bank easily. HMRC require exact payments. There are fees for receiving money and Kasikorn can't tell you exactly how much will be charged.

Do yourself a favour and do as I suggested and open an IoM account.

Paying voluntary NI has little, or nothing, to do with returning to the UK. It's about getting a UK pension

Thanks for the forecast. I have one question please about setting up an IoM account. But it is a silly question. When I am signing up for the instant access account that they offer it asks me for the amount, so I fill that in but it asks for an anticipated deposit date and I am not sure when this will be as I am not sure if Kasikorn will allow me to transfer the money to my new IoM account, assuming I get one.

I am new to this whole thing and so I am finding it a little complex. That is why there is all my questions and I thank you very much for taking the time to reply but am I correct in assuming Kasikorn will allow me to make a direct deposit in to the new IoM account that I get? If they do, do I then get the IoM account details to give to Kaiskorn to allow for the initial deposit to take place once I sign up to Nationwide IoM?

Many thanks.

Ian

Call Kasikorn bank and ask 02-8888888

Call nationwide and ask +44 1624 696000 they are very helpful.

And you do not have a UK account inside your Kasikorn bank account. You may have a sterling foreign currency account. It is not a UK account, it is a Thai account.

[ianwuk]

Hello.

Thanks for the phone numbers.

Sorry, what I meant was, about having a UK account set up inside my Kasikorn one is that I can use Kasikorn online banking to send and receive money from my Kasikorn account to my parents UK bank account. So, I am assuming, once the IoM account is set up I would just add that account inside Kasikorn online banking the same way and should be able to transfer money to it from my Kasikorn account.

Thank again.

Ian

[sometimewoodworker]

Hello.

Thanks for the phone numbers.

Sorry, what I meant was, about having a UK account set up inside my Kasikorn one is that I can use Kasikorn online banking to send and receive money from my Kasikorn account to my parents UK bank account. So, I am assuming, once the IoM account is set up I would just add that account inside Kasikorn online banking the same way and should be able to transfer money to it from my Kasikorn account.

Thank again.

Ian

Probably

However you have just given information we didn't have.

Your parents can make payments for you and you can pay them.

HMRC wants money with the correct reference they don't care where it comes from.

[FruitPudding]

I am in the same boat. I only have 6 years contributions.

But I would hate to pay and not reap the benefits, if expats are no longer eligible.

[brewsterbudgen]

I am in the same boat. I only have 6 years contributions.

But I would hate to pay and not reap the benefits, if expats are no longer eligible.

It could happen, but hopefully very unlikely.

I had about 20 years contributions so for me it was a no brainer to top it up to 26 (I could only pay 6 years). I won't get the full pension, but it will be better than nothing!

[ianwuk]

Hello.

Thanks for the phone numbers.

Sorry, what I meant was, about having a UK account set up inside my Kasikorn one is that I can use Kasikorn online banking to send and receive money from my Kasikorn account to my parents UK bank account. So, I am assuming, once the IoM account is set up I would just add that account inside Kasikorn online banking the same way and should be able to transfer money to it from my Kasikorn account.

Thank again.

Ian

Probably

However you have just given information we didn't have.

Your parents can make payments for you and you can pay them.

HMRC wants money with the correct reference they don't care where it comes from.

I understand. However I will probably end up doing this all myself. Hence the silly questions and such.

Thanks for replying.

[sandmike]

I am in the same boat. I only have 6 years contributions.

But I would hate to pay and not reap the benefits, if expats are no longer eligible.

FP ... you need a minimum of 10 years contributions before you're eligible for payments under the new pension scheme, which starts in April. You're 2/3rd of the way there now .. my suggestion would be to get 10 years contributions in place, so that you get something in the future, no matter how little. I think that Expats will still get a pension, it's the increases that are in doubt if you're living in Thailand when you come to collect.

[GarryP]

I am in the same boat. I only have 6 years contributions.

But I would hate to pay and not reap the benefits, if expats are no longer eligible.

FP ... you need a minimum of 10 years contributions before you're eligible for payments under the new pension scheme, which starts in April. You're 2/3rd of the way there now .. my suggestion would be to get 10 years contributions in place, so that you get something in the future, no matter how little. I think that Expats will still get a pension, it's the increases that are in doubt if you're living in Thailand when you come to collect.

As I have only paid 3 years, does that mean I would need to pay another 7 by April to qualify under the new scheme?

[sandmike]

Garryp .

No.

You need to pay into the system before you reach retirement age.

The years you have accrued at that time are called qualifying years and form the basis of the calculation of how much state pension you will be paid.

Right now the new system is a mess and it is unclear how much pension you will get until the pension people do their calculation, because there are 2 (or 3) sets of contributions to consider.

I have a gap, and will only achieve 30 years by the time I retiree. God knows how much I will get in a couple of years time.

Thankfully I'm not relying on this to live on.

I am not an Oracle on this, but it is something that is near to my heart ...

Edited February 9, 2016 by sandmike

[whitedesire]

I am in the same boat. I only have 6 years contributions.

But I would hate to pay and not reap the benefits, if expats are no longer eligible.

From the new system of 35 years, you will need at least 10 years contributions to get a partial state pension at the least, good idea to pay at least 4 years worth of voluntary NIs if appropropriate. Currently it is only 3 years.

[whitedesire]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

Worrab, not sure why your pension is worth only £130, you are very similar to me I'm 60 next year and my pension is up to date worth £138, however, from now till I retire, (7 years) I will be given the opportunity (as will all at my age) to increase my pension to the maximum of £155, £155 is the limit anything over that won't be allowed. If you are not working, you can pay AVCs to ensure that you reach this £155 ceiling. You might just about touch the ceiling. Similarly, you can backdate years also. You might still have 6 or 7 years you can pay, that will take you to the maximum of £155.

On a separate note, not sure why you have got only £130 only accrued, could be you contracted out of SERPs, in which case that portion is in a pension anyway for you and at the age of 55 it can be gotten at.

[whitedesire]

Amazed why the OP is requesting this information from a bunch of bar stool jockeys and know it all's.

Ask HMRC and be guided by them!

I see you are reading this thread which is clearly titled.

[whitedesire]

Current retirment age is 67..

67-31 = 34 years

You need 30 years full years payments to be entitled to full state pension.

I'm in same boat and have 10 full years of NI contributions.

Therefore I will start paying when I am 47 and not a day sooner.

You assume that you will be allowed to pay at or after age 47.

The deal allowing back payment of NI credits is one of the best pension deals going, my advice is take the deal while you can.

From April 2016, you're NI record is frozen and known as a foundation amount, you will be allowed to build to this over the years. Your foundation amount is the higher amount of calculations under the old scheme and the new scheme. So, you won't lose out. Anything over £155 is protected. If the amount doesn't reach that, you can accrue to it each year till you retire, either by working or AVCs

[kingalfred]

Do not believe that 30 years payments will give you maximum pension. Things have changed drastically recently with the new pension coming into force. I thought the same thing in so much as I would get the reckoned maximum figure of £150 a week. Wrong!! After asking them for a quote last summer before moving here, I am only entitled to around £130 a week. Even on their breakdown of how it is calculated, I am totally baffled after paying in for over 30 years. I retired last year at 60 and will have to wait until I am 66 to start receiving this pension.

If you're entitled to £130 it means that you have 30 qualifying years.

The intent to increase to needing 35 qualifying years was announced over 3 year ago. You can still make voluntary contributions to add the missing 5 years.

And unless you are in bad health it is a very good idea as the break even is only 5 years.

They way I understand it under the new rules, the 35 years of contributions rule only affects those people who have not made any previous contributions, those who have already made contributions still only need to make 30 years of payments.

This is from the gov.uk website:

You didnt make National Insurance contributions or get National Insurance credits before 6 April 2016

Your State Pension will be calculated entirely under the new State Pension rules.

Youll usually need at least 10 qualifying years on your National Insurance record to get any State Pension.

Youll need 35 qualifying years to get the full new State Pension.

Youll get a proportion of the new State Pension if you have between 10 and 35 qualifying years.

Example

You have 20 qualifying years on your National Insurance record after 6 April 2016.

You multiply 20 qualifying years by £4.44 (which is £155.65 divided by 35).

Your new State Pension will be £88.80 per week.

Your new State Pension is more likely to be calculated in this way if you were born after the year 2000 or became a resident of the UK after 2015.

The first and the last lines read to me that 35 years is only for those just starting their contribution payments.

That is not a correct reading.

To get the full new pension you need 35 years

for the old pension 30 years.

If you do not have enough qualify years for the new pension you can make voluntary payments

https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/top-up-your-state-pension

Having gone through the government website I'm inclined to think that you're right. The annoying thing about this is that I had previously paid up 33 years worth of contributions most of which were voluntary and got a refund when they first introduced the 30 year rule. Looks like I'll have to give it them back again now at the newer, higher rate.

The website states "you can only "top up" if born before dates in 1951 and 1953. What is the situation if born after that and have 30 years NI contributions but need 35 years to get a full pension?

[sandmike]

As of today, 30 years of contributions will get you the uk state pension of £115.95 per week. Any additional payments you made to SERPS or similar will increase this amount.

After 6 April this year, you will have to have 35 years of contributions AND have paid IN FULL into SERPS or similar to get the £155 per week. Any shortfall in payments to this 2nd pension will result in a reduced payment, even if you have 35 years or more of class 1 contributions. Many people did not contribute to this 2nd pension, and hence won't get the new full amount.

Those who didn't pay in (contracted out) would have contributed to a separate pension.

Confusing, and its going to be a good few years before everyone qualifies for the full amount of state pension.

Edited February 9, 2016 by sandmike