Sentence Structure

[ourmanflint]

I've done a search but couldn't really find what I'm after so here goes.

1.) How do I use Phaw.. as in "it's not spicy enough!!"

Is it mai phet phaw or phet mai phaw, or are they both correct??

there are lots more to come!! I'm getting into it properly now, but every step forward there are ten more questions!!

[ourmanflint]

Not many takers I see, well it's only been afew hours I suppose

Anyway.... another one the word " hai " to give, should be a verb right, so I can say

"phom hai khun laeo " I gave you already

what I can't get is if I had to say ... I'll give it to you next week, ok?

I would say

Phom hai khun aathit naa, ok? or do I even need the pronouns??

Thanks

[meadish_sweetball]

I am actually not sure about your first question.

As for the second:

Anyway.... another one the word " hai " to give, should be a verb right, so I can say

"phom hai khun laeo " I gave you already

Yes, correct.

what I can't get is if I had to say ... I'll give it to you next week, ok?

I would say

Phom hai khun aathit naa, ok? or do I even need the pronouns??

You dont necessarily need the pronouns, whether to use them or not is mostly about gut feeling based on what is proper, and to some extent personal preference.

Omitting pronouns usually signals being non-commital, as the pronouns will indicate degree of closeness/familiarity and/or respect. Once there are pronouns there, they help to signal the relation you perceive yourself to have to the other party to the conversation. Note that using a too familiar pronoun in the wrong situation can be perceived as an insult. Being too formal might make the other party uneasy, but it will at least not cause a major breakdown in communications.

I would add a "ja" for future tense although it can also be omitted due to the time adverbial being specified:

phom/phii/nawng/etc. ja hai khun/nawng/phii/etc. aathit naa

'ja hai aathid naa' is not wrong, but as you can see it can easily be misinterpreted. For that reason, it would be smart to at least add an "I" pronoun to indicate who is giving what to whom.

[Johpa]

I've done a search but couldn't really find what I'm after so here goes.

1.) How do I use Phaw.. as in "it's not spicy enough!!"

Is it mai phet phaw or phet mai phaw, or are they both correct??

there are lots more to come!! I'm getting into it properly now, but every step forward there are ten more questions!!

The correct phrase would be phet mai phaw (not spicey enough)

Thai often combines a word with another associated (semantically) word to effect a negation. I am sure there is a long forgotten (by me that is) linguistic word for this type of construction. Other examples being mong mai hen (can't see) and kin mai long (can't eat it). Perhaps the most generic constructions would be verb + mai pen or verb + mai wai.

khap rot mai pen (I can't drive a car because I don't know how.)

khap rot mai wai (I can't drive a car at the moment due to some impairment, a phrase not heard often enough in LOS)

[Rikker]

The case of พอ phaw[M] seems to be a bit atypical, though. I agree with Johpa that เผ็ดไม่พอ phed mai phaw is probably the "correct" choice, but ไม่เผ็ดพอ mai phed phaw is, at least informally, just as acceptable.

Perhaps the way it gets used has to do with the basic intended meaning. If you're trying to say it's not spicy enough, then ไม่เผ็ดพอ mai phed phaw seems to capture better the idea that it's ไม่เผ็ดเท่าที่ต้องการ mai phed thao thii tawngkaan , whereas เผ็ดไม่พอ phed mai phaw starts out by saying it's spicy, then qualifies that with ไม่พอ mai phaw.

Think of another random hypothetical situation. Say a friend was trying to play a prank on me, but I figured out what was going on, and I wanted to jokingly taunt them about it. ฉันไม่โง่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ chan mai ngoo phaw thii ja long kon khun "I'm not stupid enough to fall for your tricks." If you said it ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, chan ngoo mai phaw thii ja long kon khun, does it strike anyone else as overly emphasizing the ฉันโง่ chan ngoo part? The basic meaning is ฉันไม่โง่ chan mai ngoo, so I can understand why colloquially พอ phaw is used ไม่+verb+พอ. (mai + verb + phaw)

After writing the above, I opened up the James Higbie reference grammar of spoken Thai, and his section on พอ phaw (p.204-208 if you're interested) is rife with alternations between the two forms, often listing both as options. For example: ผมไม่มีเงินพอ phom mai mii ngoen phaw /ผมมีเงินไม่พอ phom mii ngoen mai phaw.

EDIT: Added romanization in blue for clarity /Meadish

[taxexile]

If you said it ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, does it strike anyone else as overly emphasizing the ฉันโง่ part? The basic meaning is ฉันไม่โง่, so I can understand why colloquially พอ is used ไม่+verb+พอ.

when it's said like ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, chan mai ngoo phaw thii ja long kon khun, it seems ,at least to a westerner , to imply that ones stupidness needs to be worked on ( i.e. wait until i'm more stupid , then your tricks will work , as opposed to you will need to improve your tricks before i will fall for them ) . it might work with a more positive adjective (clever , talented) , but not with a negative meaning such as stupid.

how the thai brain assimilates these nuances when listening to their language , i have no idea.

EDIT: Added romanization in blue for clarity /Meadish

[Johpa]

If you said it ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, does it strike anyone else as overly emphasizing the ฉันโง่ part? The basic meaning is ฉันไม่โง่, so I can understand why colloquially พอ is used ไม่+verb+พอ.

when it's said like ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, , it seems ,at least to a westerner , to imply that ones stupidness needs to be worked on ( i.e. wait until i'm more stupid , then your tricks will work , as opposed to you will need to improve your tricks before i will fall for them ) . it might work with a more positive adjective (clever , talented) , but not with a negative meaning such as stupid.

how the thai brain assimilates these nuances when listening to their language , i have no idea.

I confess that I have never heard such a phrase in Thai such as ฉันโง่ไม่พอ. And yes, I too would parse such a phrase as indicating the speaker wished to increase his stupidity.

In this particular instance, and I apologize for not having the ability to produce a Thai font (phim phasaa thai mai pen) the correct phrase, in my mind would be

chan mai ngoo thung khanat nan thii ca......

[ourmanflint]

thanks guys....

It would be a great help to me with my reading, if you could also add phonetic translations to the script, I still find it a little difficult to keep up with you.

todays problem is "samoeh" some

is it samoeh sai tuung... put some in the bag or sai samoeh tuung

cheers

[meadish_sweetball]

some = baang[F] บ้าง

sai[L] thung[R] baang[F] (mai sai thung baang) Put some in the bag, but leave some of it.

Some more context please? Are you ordering food?

[ourmanflint]

some = baang[F] บ้าง

sai[L] thung[R] baang[F] (mai sai thung baang) Put some in the bag, but leave some of it.

Some more context please? Are you ordering food?

I realized my mistake, but too late...

You're exactly right... when getting take away from street stalls etc would tht be correct to say "an nee sai thung baang" or " an nee sai klawng baang" for a small box!!

by the way what is the best way to ask for takeaway??? - ao pai or pai klap baan? or neither!!

The samoeh ( เสมอ) maybe it should be samaw?... was another question...

When saying I will always love you for example, would you simply say, phom rak khun samoeh! or maybe phom samoeh rak khun...

or phom pai kin bia gap pheuan wan aathit samoeh- I always go drinking with my friends on Sundays

Edited October 24, 2006 by ourmanflint

[Rikker]

by the way what is the best way to ask for takeaway??? - ao pai or pai klap baan? or neither!!

This depends a bit on when/how you're ordering it. If you're at a fast food place like McDonald's, they'll usually ask you anyway, in the form ทานนี่หรือนำกลับ [thaan nii reu nam klap]--eat here or take back (home with you). In this case where there's sort of an established lingo, you can just say นำกลับ [nam klap], or นำกลับบ้าน [nam klap baan] if you'd like. Here นำ is just more polite sounding than เอา, really.

In general, though, at roadside food stands like your typical ร้านอาหารตามสั่ง (food-to-order), which has a few tables but also plenty of takeout customers, for takeout you will usually specify ใส่กล่อง [sai klong] if it's something that goes in a box, like rice, or ใส่ถุง [sai thung] if it's something that goes in a bag, like papaya salad or what have you. If you made your order then said ใส่กล่องนำกลับบ้านด้วยครับ [sai klong nam klap baan duay khrap] it would be extra clear, and polite to boot.

Hope that helps.

[Rikker]

Thought I'd just add a couple sample sentences:

More polite: ขอสั่งข้าวผัดหมู ใส่กล่องครับ "I'll have pork fried rice to go."

Normal/familiar: เอาส้มตำสองครก ใส่ถุง "I'll take two orders of som tam to go."

Also, if you just use กล่อง as the classifier it can carry the implicit meaning of "to go," since you would've said จาน if you meant dine-in: เอาข้าวผัดสองกล่อง "I'll have two boxes of fried rice." Depends on your comfort level with the language, I suppose.

[ourmanflint]

Thanks Rikker

Never come across "nam" before, thanks, not sure what "krok" is used for though เอาส้มตำสองครก ใส่ถุง, on Thai2english it says mortar!! Is that referring to making two orders of somtam or something?? If so then it's very specific to buying somtam!!!

Cheers

[meadish_sweetball]

Correct.

In this case it is used as a classifier meaning "portions of [somtam]".

Similar to if you are buying 2 sticks of bbq chicken, you would order kai[L] sawng[RL] maai[HL] (máai meaning 'wood').

I hadn't heard ครก used as a classifier before either, only as 'mortar' - but it makes good sense.

[yoot]

It's interesting to read on this thread. But I have to confess some Thai sentences here sound strange to me.

For examples:

ขอสั่งข้าวผัดหมู ใส่กล่องครับ - This is corrext but I would just say เอา/ขอ ข้าวผัดหมูกล่องหนึ่งครับ

เอาส้มตำสองครก ใส่ถุง - This order might be able to confuse the seller. It sounds like the seller have to do them twice and put them in the same bag. If you want the different taste for each, you should clearify them, such as, เอาส้มตำเผ็ดถุง(หนึ่ง)ไม่เผ็ดถุง(หนึ่ง).

I'll be back for more when I have more time.

[meadish_sweetball]

I'll be back for more when I have more time.

แสดงว่าคุณ Yoot ชอบส้มตำเหมือนกัน ไช่ไหมครับ

[Rikker]

แสดงว่าคุณ Yoot ชอบส้มตำเหมือนกัน ไช่ไหมครับ

Very funny.

The post wasn't meant as an end-all be-all about ordering food, so much critique is probably both needed and warranted. Obviously if you want different types of som tam you will need to give more details.

My computer refuses to type Thai right now, but once when I was a new learner I stopped at some roadside store and tried to be polite, saying kho naam plaao nung khuat. They thought I was asking for a handout. So I ao in that sort of situation is definitely best, from my experience.

Also, we can't really forget that there's an expectation for foreigners to speak a special super-correct, super-polite version of Thai. We tend to get corrected on stuff that would be totally fine for a Thai to say. That's sort of normal for any language, though. I'd probably laugh if I heard a Thai with a bad accent trying to sound too slangy.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Rikker

[In the Rai!]

If you said it ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, does it strike anyone else as overly emphasizing the ฉันโง่ part? The basic meaning is ฉันไม่โง่, so I can understand why colloquially พอ is used ไม่+verb+พอ.

when it's said like ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, , it seems ,at least to a westerner , to imply that ones stupidness needs to be worked on ( i.e. wait until i'm more stupid , then your tricks will work , as opposed to you will need to improve your tricks before i will fall for them ) . it might work with a more positive adjective (clever , talented) , but not with a negative meaning such as stupid.

how the thai brain assimilates these nuances when listening to their language , i have no idea.

I confess that I have never heard such a phrase in Thai such as ฉันโง่ไม่พอ. And yes, I too would parse such a phrase as indicating the speaker wished to increase his stupidity.

In this particular instance, and I apologize for not having the ability to produce a Thai font (phim phasaa thai mai pen) the correct phrase, in my mind would be

chan mai ngoo thung khanat nan thii ca......

I would of said it like this.

ฉันไม่ได้โง่ขนาดที่จะหลงกลคุณ

I also thought that ไม่พอที่จะ had to be used with something between the ไม่ and the พอ and than have a reason afterwoods. example.

ไม่แข็งแรงพอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้

Am I correct in saying that?

In The Rai!

[meadish_sweetball]

ฉันไม่ได้โง่ขนาดที่จะหลงกลคุณ

Sounds like a more natural sentence to me too, but then it doesn't use พอ at all.

ไม่แข็งแรงพอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้

That also sounds better to me than แข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ , but both sound acceptable. Then again I am just another second language learner. Are there any native Thais here to say which is better?

[In the Rai!]

That also sounds better to me than แข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ , but both sound acceptable. Then again I am just another second language learner. Are there any native Thais here to say which is better?

Meadish,

your doing better than most. Isnt English your second and Thai your third. But I am sure you have probably mastered a few european languages aswell. Something about Europeans and languages. I am very jealous.

As for the Thai sentences. It would be great to know a Thai's opinion on it.

Cheers

In The Rai!

[meadish_sweetball]

Thanks, but sadly the only foreign languages with which I manage ok are English and Thai. I did study French and Spanish, but never actively sought out the opportunity to practice them. I'd need a fair amount of brushing up before being able to communicate in either of them.

As a peculiar aside, Spanish prepositions intruded a lot on the early stages of my learning Thai, the same way my Thai now interferes whenever I try to formulate a sentence in French or Spanish.

English already has its own compartment which seems fairly secure from outside influences (so far at any rate; age and senility might mess it all up again).

[yoot]

I'll be back for more when I have more time.

แสดงว่าคุณ Yoot ชอบส้มตำเหมือนกัน ไช่ไหมครับ :D

ชอบสิครับ อร่อยจะตาย ยิ่งตำเองยิ่งอร่อย คุณ meadish ตำส้มตำทางเองบ้างเหรอเปล่าครับ

Back to sentence structure,

'แข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ ' - for this sentence it should be used when the person who say that he is not strong enough to be able to lift a fridge, once used to be able to do that but it might because he got sick and has not recovered completely yet. Or when you criticize someone about their strongness.

ไม่แข็งแรงพอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ - is used for the person who has never been strong enough to lift a fridge.

For example;

Girl1: Yoot คุณช่วยฉันยกตู้เย็นใบนี้หน่อยได้ไหม

Yoot : โอ้ ขอโทษครับ พอดีผมเพิ่งหายป่วย ยังแข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ (I would be able to lift it if I was in my normal condition.)

Girl1 : แล้วคุณ Meadish ล่ะ ยกได้ไหมคะ

Yoot : โอ้ย คุณ Meadish เขาตัวเล็ก เขาแข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นหรอก ( He is too small and not strong enough)

Meadish :

Girl2 : ฉันก็อยากจะช่วยหรอกนะ แต่ฉันไม่แข็งแรงพอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ (I'm not strong enough, I have no ability to lift this fridge)

For ฉันไม่ได้โง่ขนาดที่จะหลงกลคุณ and ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, I will give you example to consider how they work.

Girl : Yoot ถ้าคุณให้เงินฉัน 1000 นะ ฉันจะให้คุณจูบทีนึง

Yoot : ไม่อ่ะ ผมไม่ได้โง่ขนาดที่จะหลงกลคุณหรอก (I'm not that stupid to fall for your trick)

Girl : อ้อเหรอ ก็เห็นใคร ๆ บอกว่าคุณโง่

Yoot : เชอะ ถึงผมจะโง่ ก็ยังโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณอยู่ดี (Although I'm stupid but I'm not stupid enough to fall for your trick)

Edited November 1, 2006 by yoot

[Richard W]

As a peculiar aside, Spanish prepositions intruded a lot on the early stages of my learning Thai, the same way my Thai now interferes whenever I try to formulate a sentence in French or Spanish.

Interesting. Whenever I try to say something in French, I have to struggle to stop myself uttering Thai. It's as though my brain has a simple category 'foreign', and then I try to speak French it simply fetches the 'foreign' word. (I'm largely at the stage where Thai words correspond to English words rather than having their own sets of associations, and French was my worst examinable subject when I dropped it at 16.)

[Rikker]

I'm the same way--whenever I'm working with a foreign language, Thai often interferes. And it's often easier for me to remember which Thai word something in a foreign language corresponds to than which English word. I, too, seem to have a 'foreign' language compartment in my brain which Thai not only occupies but is fiercely territorial over.

[In the Rai!]

I'm the same way--whenever I'm working with a foreign language, Thai often interferes. And it's often easier for me to remember which Thai word something in a foreign language corresponds to than which English word. I, too, seem to have a 'foreign' language compartment in my brain which Thai not only occupies but is fiercely territorial over.

I lived and studied in Japan for 3 years and I have almost forgotten all. Everytime I go to speak Japanese, Thai words come to mind.

Its great to hear that I am not alone. Here I was all this time thinking I was just a simple man.

In The Rai!

[In the Rai!]

I'll be back for more when I have more time.

แสดงว่าคุณ Yoot ชอบส้มตำเหมือนกัน ไช่ไหมครับ :D

ชอบสิครับ อร่อยจะตาย ยิ่งตำเองยิ่งอร่อย คุณ meadish ตำส้มตำทางเองบ้างเหรอเปล่าครับ

Back to sentence structure,

'แข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ ' - for this sentence it should be used when the person who say that he is not strong enough to be able to lift a fridge, once used to be able to do that but it might because he got sick and has not recovered completely yet. Or when you criticize someone about their strongness.

ไม่แข็งแรงพอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ - is used for the person who has never been strong enough to lift a fridge.

For example;

Girl1: Yoot คุณช่วยฉันยกตู้เย็นใบนี้หน่อยได้ไหม

Yoot : โอ้ ขอโทษครับ พอดีผมเพิ่งหายป่วย ยังแข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ (I would be able to lift it if I was in my normal condition.)

Girl1 : แล้วคุณ Meadish ล่ะ ยกได้ไหมคะ

Yoot : โอ้ย คุณ Meadish เขาตัวเล็ก เขาแข็งแรงไม่พอที่จะยกตู้เย็นหรอก ( He is too small and not strong enough)

Meadish :

Girl2 : ฉันก็อยากจะช่วยหรอกนะ แต่ฉันไม่แข็งแรงพอที่จะยกตู้เย็นได้ (I'm not strong enough, I have no ability to lift this fridge)

For ฉันไม่ได้โง่ขนาดที่จะหลงกลคุณ and ฉันโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณ, I will give you example to consider how they work.

Girl : Yoot ถ้าคุณให้เงินฉัน 1000 นะ ฉันจะให้คุณจูบทีนึง

Yoot : ไม่อ่ะ ผมไม่ได้โง่ขนาดที่จะหลงกลคุณหรอก (I'm not that stupid to fall for your trick)

Girl : อ้อเหรอ ก็เห็นใคร ๆ บอกว่าคุณโง่

Yoot : เชอะ ถึงผมจะโง่ ก็ยังโง่ไม่พอที่จะหลงกลคุณอยู่ดี (Although I'm stupid but I'm not stupid enough to fall for your trick)

Thanks for your examples Yoot. Its good to see them used in different ways.

In The Rai!

[dsfbrit]

I'm the same way--whenever I'm working with a foreign language, Thai often interferes. And it's often easier for me to remember which Thai word something in a foreign language corresponds to than which English word. I, too, seem to have a 'foreign' language compartment in my brain which Thai not only occupies but is fiercely territorial over.

I lived and studied in Japan for 3 years and I have almost forgotten all. Everytime I go to speak Japanese, Thai words come to mind.

Its great to hear that I am not alone. Here I was all this time thinking I was just a simple man.

In The Rai!

Me too - I am English - learnt/spoke german for some years and recently - this is one example of many - said this to a german - Ich Habe mai mee banha!!

I have no idea how people at the UN switch between languages at will!

[meadish_sweetball]

It's a matter of practice and firmly establishing which is which. This takes time, but everyone who is proficient in more than one language and switches often between them, will get there. Kids learn it fairly quickly, although there is some interference, especially from the dominant language upon the secondary one. I have a friend who is raising a child bilingual, now 7 years old, in Thai and Swedish, in Sweden, and she speaks Thai well - but she still uses the same pronouns for "you" and "I" on all occasions in Thai, irrespective of who she is speaking to - not enough exposure to Thai culture to realize the importance of hierarchies in Thailand.

I don't have any problems switching between English, Swedish and Thai anymore, but I definitely used to - it is just the languages I have not practiced enough, like Spanish and French, that I have problems with now.

The problems I have experienced were most apparent in the learning stages.

[Rikker]

I suspect there's a barrier of bilingualism there, where if I were to manage to learn a third language with even conversational ability then I would be able to better segment new languages I learn.

For now, Thai has no real competition for the space, except for other SE Asian language I like to listen to audio CDs for in the car, which are more or less similar to Thai in grammatical structure if not in word forms. Heaven help me if I ever try to learn a language with complex verb conjugations...