Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[IMHO]

Can i conclude:

Circulating hot water through a radiator like this will certainly warm up a space/room but with cool/cold water will not cool the room or lower the temp of the room.

I maybe ask and react silly and stubborn but i wont even test it if 100% of the reactions find it not a good idea.

There's no reason it wouldn't cool the room - so long as you can achieve the same delta's as what a heater of this style does. e.g. these heaters work great in a ambient temp of 0c (or less) and a heater temp of 35c. If you cool water to say, 20c and put in through one of these in a 35c room, it's not going to have anywhere near the efficacy of the heater style.

I still contend that it's a very inefficient way to cool though. Nothing beats the efficiency of an actual refrigerant, a compressor and separate indoor/outdoor heat exchangers with fans. i.e. a split system AC.

[George Harmony]

If you cool water to say, 20c and put in through one of these in a 35c room, it's not going to have anywhere near the efficacy of the heater style.

Thats im wondering in the first place. How cold can be the outcoming water after circulating for for example 1 hour as per above setup. If its constant under the 10c it can perhaps be interesting.

I just try to find a way too cool down 3-5c more. On a very hot day my room temp is 28-30. With fans its "feels" cool although the room temp is/remains high.

Ofcourse an aircon is the most efficient way to cool a room. If there's no other way i must plan for that 260watt lg hercules aircon later or a dc aircon.

[bankruatsteve]

Google "endothermic".

[George Harmony]

Interesting @bankruatsteve

Are there chemical reactions that could cool down an average sized room by a noticeable amount (say 5 °C)?

I would like to investigate if it is possible to have a situation where I can mix 2 reagents at room temperature and pressure and in open air then they should react and become colder then room temperature without evaporation of some type, with an eye to making a noticeable drop to the room temperature.

One idea/reaction besides endothermic

Let's take a material with a melting point of, say, 18°C, and a high latent heat of fusion. Freeze it, insulate it, and take it into a room that's at 22°C. While the material melts, it will absorb heat from the air, cooling the room.

This principle has been applied in building material design, to provide smoothing of temperature variations

Will learn more in the coming days. Thanks.

Edited May 7, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

Sorry. Did not paste the link of above. Here it is http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/1238/chemical-reactions-with-a-room-scale-cooling-effect

[IMHO]

If you cool water to say, 20c and put in through one of these in a 35c room, it's not going to have anywhere near the efficacy of the heater style.

Thats im wondering in the first place. How cold can be the outcoming water after circulating for for example 1 hour as per above setup. If its constant under the 10c it can perhaps be interesting.

I just try to find a way too cool down 3-5c more. On a very hot day my room temp is 28-30. With fans its "feels" cool although the room temp is/remains high.

Ofcourse an aircon is the most efficient way to cool a room. If there's no other way i must plan for that 260watt lg hercules aircon later or a dc aircon.

There's another thing that an AC will do that your proposed system will not - dehumidify the air. Dehumidification alone makes a room feel cooler.

Again, the correct solution is still an airconditioner.

[Naam]

There's another thing that an AC will do that your proposed system will not - dehumidify the air. Dehumidification alone makes a room feel cooler.

Again, the correct solution is still an airconditioner.

if an Overunity aficionado uses a container with 5 tons of crushed ice and circulates a few hundred liters of water through a copper coil, length 25 meters embedded in the ice, and then through a heat-exchanger that is exposed to a flow of forced room air he will be able to cool down a small living room to a very comfortable temperature. there will also be dehumidification, therefore a drip pan with an outlet to the garden is highly suggested. power is need for a pump and for a fan.

cooling of course for a limited time only!

[Jing Joe]

Can i conclude:

Circulating hot water through a radiator like this will certainly warm up a space/room but with cool/cold water will not cool the room or lower the temp of the room.

I maybe ask and react silly and stubborn but i wont even test it if 100% of the reactions find it not a good idea.

I don't agree George. Every thing has a relativity. The very basic principle of circulating either hot or cold liquid/gas/vapour through a tubed finned device like this WILL heat or cool the air but importantly involving any other mass in that room. The "room" could be small, medium or large. The temperature and flow rate of the liquid could be low medium or high, the R factor of the insulation cladding around the room could be low to high, the dissipation rate from moving air past the radiator could be low to high (fans) hence a temperature stratification factor in the room also the relevant elevation/location of the radiator in the room. These are probably the main factors. Then comes the time element and also remember our high school physics experiments in heat/cold transference? e.g. Mass x specific heat x delta T (temp change) EQUALS M x S x Td..

We so far have all concurred to forget the over-one nonsense/joke so you cant get something for nothing. So one just needs to get the facts above into relativity and do the rough concepts first, take into consideration losses causing inefficiency, add the expertise of Naam's calculations to get closer to the realistic goals of the projects.

AND most importantly as Naam has just reiterated; practicality is the order of the (now hot) day.

Then add the wonderful discovery of latent heat with refrigeration relying on changing from liquid to gas to liquid etc where a C.O.P (coefficient of performance) I think can go up to 2.8?? where the electrical energy involved to process the gasses/liquids can effectively transfer 2.8 times the heat/cold energy from one place to another as best physically shown in a split system. (This would surely boggle the minds of those over-one freaks out there).

"In all of life and this above, I could be wrong and often am".

FINALLY George, even the most experienced thinkers/inventors in any field should humbly accept all IDEAS or naive opinions offered because history has shown how even the experts have been known to say; "I never thought of that IDEA". Someone foolishly said 200 ?? years ago "everything that could be invented has already been done". We can ALL learn something new every day, and if we don't we are not paying enough attention!!!

Then there's that true story; I remember the days before there were toilet rolls and when the IDEA eventuated there were complaints that the paper never tore conveniently so a humble Dutch toilet cleaner (George's great grandfather, whom our humble George was purposely named after) suggested the IDEA of lines of small holes so logically accepted now. Its everywhere now; "tear along the dotted line" in office paperwork and washing powder packets. There was an economic-drive IDEA in the V.W. factory office; "save the trees; use both sides of the paper". But Naam's German Uncle Hans had a mischievous IDEA and relocated the sign to the toilet and notice how Naam cant resist keeping up the tradition of family mischievous humour.

So George; do "ask, react silly and be stubborn questions" (yours words) and Naam; please remain kind, gentlemanly and patiently showing respect and remember his great grandfather every time you're seated in the smallest room of the house. Smile please.

Apart from the respectable frivolities, THANKS TO TVN this has been an amazing congeniality and sharing and advancement of technical knowledge of alternative energy, into Thailand, Indonesia, Hawaii, Oz etc and DO tell/help your neighbours like George now does, and I've done for 40 years.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jing Joe

[splitlid]

Will learn more in the coming days. Thanks.

Maybe. But some how...........?

[Naam]

where the electrical energy involved to process the gasses/liquids can effectively transfer 2.8 times the heat/cold energy from one place to another as best physically shown in a split system. (This would surely boggle the minds of those over-one freaks out there).

"In all of life and this above, I could be wrong and often am".

you are not wrong Joe because you mentioned "can transfer 2.8 x energy".. totally wrong would be "generated".

by the way... the names of my grandfathers were August and Joe.

[George Harmony]

Will learn more in the coming days. Thanks.

Maybe. But some how...........?

@crossy,

Permit me to react off topic with one my favorite song:

Crimson flames tied through my ears

Rollin' high and mighty traps

Pounced with fire on flaming roads

Using ideas as my maps

"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I

Proud 'neath heated brow

Ah, BUT I WAS SO MUCH OLDER THEN I'M YOUNGER THAN THAT NOW

:)

[George Harmony]

I was looking for info about dewpoint in my area and other things and found also this:

Someone claims that this is ok for small rooms and it draws only 50watt.

I think it depends on your definition of 'cooling' as in make it really cool or just 'not as warm'...for example I got a standing air 'cooler'/ionizer/humidifier at Pongs (the one you can put water in)..when the weather is hot (like 31C in the room), it can only bring the temperature down maybe only a couple degrees cooler even though the temp indicator said that it was running at 26C. I experimented putting a couple trays of ice cubes and it actually showed a temperature of 23C...so if you have a small room (like less than 20 m2) it might make it semi bearable at night compared to just using a fan.

Others ofcourse suggest to use an aircon.

Will this really work in humid areas??

Here is the link: http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/38401-Low-wattage-portable-air-conditioners-worthwhile

[Jing Joe]

where the electrical energy involved to process the gasses/liquids can effectively transfer 2.8 times the heat/cold energy from one place to another as best physically shown in a split system. (This would surely boggle the minds of those over-one freaks out there).

"In all of life and this above, I could be wrong and often am".

you are not wrong Joe because you mentioned "can transfer 2.8 x energy".. totally wrong would be "generated".

by the way ... the names of my grandfathers were August and Joe.

BTW Naam, August was the birth month of this "Joe". Back on track;---

Very interesting notes in Wikipedia re C.O.P. mentions 3.5 for a geothermal heat pump. Good basic explanations and examples.

The Australian Institute of Energy web site mentions C.O.P of up to 9 involving ammonia refrigerant in a screw compressor..

Too complicated for me, maybe not for Naam but such detailed info there may be irrelevant in this forum?

Food for thought;- from the discussions about 20 pages back re Thermoelectric devices, I remembered quoting about 50% cooling efficiency. Thinking about it more;- Because they make no sound or light they approximate a 60 watt resistor (all heat), are 100% ? efficient, except the Thermoelectric device's DC power splits into cold energy one side PLUS the heat energy on the other.

Except for fan/s needed it is practical and simple technology and the next obstacle/challenge is future development of the "inconvenient" law of the physics that currently splits it about 50/50 heat/cold. They are an interesting spin off from the very old peltier effect (junction of two dissimilar metals) and progressed to multiple semiconductor junctions. What's next? a new IDEA that produces 95% cooling and 5% heating. Perhaps not in my time but that would be something eh George?

[Jing Joe]

I was looking for info about dewpoint in my area and other things and found also this:

Someone claims that this is ok for small rooms and it draws only 50watt.

I think it depends on your definition of 'cooling' as in make it really cool or just 'not as warm'...for example I got a standing air 'cooler'/ionizer/humidifier at Pongs (the one you can put water in)..when the weather is hot (like 31C in the room), it can only bring the temperature down maybe only a couple degrees cooler even though the temp indicator said that it was running at 26C. I experimented putting a couple trays of ice cubes and it actually showed a temperature of 23C...so if you have a small room (like less than 20 m2) it might make it semi bearable at night compared to just using a fan.

Others ofcourse suggest to use an aircon.

Will this really work in humid areas??

Here is the link: http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/38401-Low-wattage-portable-air-conditioners-worthwhile

Do you remember George about 10 pages back about garden shade cloth like washing on the line and mist it with water and natural breezes to cool nearby? This is outback Aussie practicalities and same principle as the appliance in the picture. But one really needs to look at the temps and humidities as you are asking. They are cheap enough. Ours has in and out temps of 15 degrees difference and better than fans.

Your practical rather than theoretical investigations could be cheap enough to work in with your weather to warrant bigger sizes? "Everything is relative". Some fresh air must flow through otherwise the humidity builds to an unworkable unpleasant level.

Imagine a swap/seasonal/spare screen door with no fly screen but shade cloth, being misted with water. At the other end of the house have a similar spare seasonal door with a "suitable" size exhaust fan mounted and a clear PVC skin to seal the surrounds. Close all other windows and doors.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Jing Joe]

I was looking for info about dewpoint in my area and other things and found also this:

Someone claims that this is ok for small rooms and it draws only 50watt.

I think it depends on your definition of 'cooling' as in make it really cool or just 'not as warm'...for example I got a standing air 'cooler'/ionizer/humidifier at Pongs (the one you can put water in)..when the weather is hot (like 31C in the room), it can only bring the temperature down maybe only a couple degrees cooler even though the temp indicator said that it was running at 26C. I experimented putting a couple trays of ice cubes and it actually showed a temperature of 23C...so if you have a small room (like less than 20 m2) it might make it semi bearable at night compared to just using a fan.

Others ofcourse suggest to use an aircon.

Will this really work in humid areas??

Here is the link: http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/38401-Low-wattage-portable-air-conditioners-worthwhile

Do you remember George about 10 pages back about garden shade cloth like washing on the line and mist it with water and natural breezes to cool nearby? This is outback Aussie practicalities and same principle as the appliance in the picture. But one really needs to look at the temps and humidities as you are asking. They are cheap enough. Ours has in and out temps of 15 degrees difference and better than fans.

Your practical rather than theoretical investigations could be cheap enough to work in with your weather to warrant bigger sizes? "Everything is relative". Some fresh air must flow through otherwise the humidity builds to an unworkable unpleasant level.

Imagine a swap/seasonal/spare screen door with no fly screen but shade cloth, being misted with water. At the other end of the house have a similar spare seasonal door with a "suitable" size exhaust fan mounted and a clear PVC skin to seal the surrounds. Close all other windows and doors.

My suggestion of garden shade cloth instead of fly screen relates to the fluffier look of SOME shade cloths to have more surface area for water to cling to. Would be interesting to use existing fly screen on existing door?

[Naam]

Joe

Some fresh air must flow through otherwise the humidity builds to an unworkable unpleasant level.

and with the fresh air hot ambient air flows in resulting in a zero sum "cooling" game or, in case of high ambient humidity, a built-up of latent heat.

note: the laws of physics cannot be circumvented on planet Sol 3 (also known as "Earth").

[Naam]

a comment on dehumidification.

whether air in a room is dehumidified by any gadget does not depend only on the temperature of the cooling media but on the room's dew point. in other words it the media (e.g. water) has a temperature of 15ºC and the room's dew point is higher than dehumidification is achieved but of course depending on the existing delta t and that applies also to the cooling effect.

[bankruatsteve]

a comment on dehumidification.

whether air in a room is dehumidified by any gadget does not depend only on the temperature of the cooling media but on the room's dew point. in other words it the media (e.g. water) has a temperature of 15ºC and the room's dew point is higher than dehumidification is achieved but of course depending on the existing delta t and that applies also to the cooling effect.

Condensation occurs in the gadget, right? Unless the room extremely low humidity, wouldn't the gadget condense (dehumidify) regardless of room dew point?

[George Harmony]

My suggestion of garden shade cloth instead of fly screen relates to the fluffier look of SOME shade cloths to have more surface area for water to cling to. Would be interesting to use existing fly screen on existing door?

Very interesting indeed @jigjoe....will work it out. Thanks

[George Harmony]

For sure i live in a humid area also surrounded by fishponds of my nabors left and right. Behind my own pond.

Anyone ever use such kind of dehumidifier.

http://www.robertdyas.co.uk/pingi-i-dry-xl-dehumidifier

[Jing Joe]

For sure i live in a humid area also surrounded by fishponds of my nabors left and right. Behind my own pond.

Anyone ever use such kind of dehumidifier.

http://www.robertdyas.co.uk/pingi-i-dry-xl-dehumidifier

If its no more than 200mm high then its like the "toy" I bought when I had $10 burning a hole in my pocket. Just for curiosity to see what they get up to to lure the gullible. With the small evap surface area in it, better off to spray the face with a cheap kitchen spray and be near any decent fan. fan.

BUT as Naam basically says, evap is useless given the wrong conditions. If you're desperate in the heat like I've been, wet you head well and get near a fan. Give it a go. Is Naam bald? Just thinking. :-)

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jing Joe

[George Harmony]

According to this guy he can dehumidify his basement using a 0.23amp fan.

http://m.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/tips/a-dehumidifier-alternative.aspx

Edited May 9, 2016 by George Harmony

[Crossy]

It's a ventilator, not a de-humidifier.

Works great if your incoming air is relatively dry.

But of course it will be at ambient temperature.

His page title is the give-away "A dehumidifier alternative".

His secret is drawing the outgoing air from near the floor where he gets the maximum air-changes (incoming air is at the top via the windows).

You still cannae change the laws of physics, Jim.

[Crossy]

For sure i live in a humid area also surrounded by fishponds of my nabors left and right. Behind my own pond.

Anyone ever use such kind of dehumidifier.

http://www.robertdyas.co.uk/pingi-i-dry-xl-dehumidifier

Suitable for rooms up to 25m³ that's about 3m square with a 2.5m ceiling.

Probably uses silica-gel as the moisture absorbing medium, when saturated plugging it in heats the silica-gel and drives off the water ready for another cycle.

They work well for enclosed spaces (closets) where there's not a continual stream of new, wet air.

[George Harmony]

One poster said: "Dehumidification alone makes a room feel cooler".

I already run (exhaust) fans and other fans. Incoming air seems also not dry. So im trying to find a way to dehumidify my living room.

Read about salt and other products who can absorb. @jingjoe gave outdoor protection tips.

If i must run an electric dehumidifier i can better run that 260w aircon (50%). So what are the alternatives..???

Edited May 9, 2016 by George Harmony

[Naam]

a comment on dehumidification.

whether air in a room is dehumidified by any gadget does not depend only on the temperature of the cooling media but on the room's dew point. in other words it the media (e.g. water) has a temperature of 15ºC and the room's dew point is higher than dehumidification is achieved but of course depending on the existing delta t and that applies also to the cooling effect.

Condensation occurs in the gadget, right? Unless the room extremely low humidity, wouldn't the gadget condense (dehumidify) regardless of room dew point?

correct, but i wanted to draw the attention to the fact that dehumidification can vary a lot based on several variables.

the same applies to the cooling capacity of a "real" aircon which can vary ±35% (and more) under different indoor/ outdoor temperatures and different relative humidity levels.

that's why published SEER and EER levels as well as rated cooling/heating capacities are completely worthless without mentioning precisely the conditions on which they are based on.

[Naam]

So what are the alternatives..???

none.

[IMHO]

One poster said: "Dehumidification alone makes a room feel cooler".

I already run (exhaust) fans and other fans. Incoming air seems also not dry. So im trying to find a way to dehumidify my living room.

Read about salt and other products who can absorb. @jingjoe gave outdoor protection tips.

If i must run an electric dehumidifier i can better run that 260w aircon (50%). So what are the alternatives..???

I did say that, but also said the best way to do it is still a proper AC

[bankruatsteve]

Regardless of what you might have to cool things off... if you feel dizzy, have a headache, like that - immediately pack a towel with ice or even cold water and put on your head and back of the neck and lay down. Do not over do it in this heat.

[KonaRain]

a comment on dehumidification.

whether air in a room is dehumidified by any gadget does not depend only on the temperature of the cooling media but on the room's dew point. in other words it the media (e.g. water) has a temperature of 15ºC and the room's dew point is higher than dehumidification is achieved but of course depending on the existing delta t and that applies also to the cooling effect.

Condensation occurs in the gadget, right? Unless the room extremely low humidity, wouldn't the gadget condense (dehumidify) regardless of room dew point?

correct, but i wanted to draw the attention to the fact that dehumidification can vary a lot based on several variables.

the same applies to the cooling capacity of a "real" aircon which can vary ±35% (and more) under different indoor/ outdoor temperatures and different relative humidity levels.

that's why published SEER and EER levels as well as rated cooling/heating capacities are completely worthless without mentioning precisely the conditions on which they are based on.

So what are the alternatives..???

none.

accidental quote..I wanted to like!

I'm at the same latitude in Hawaii, but I saw this on the coastline in a friend's store..

It was a small free standing air conditioning unit with a fat hose running outside underneath some outside clothing racks. To exhaust the hot, humid air. Now because of You Guys, I think that the dehumidification, is the natural result of cooling.. I think.

That was also a fan to blow at the clerk, right above the unit.

Pic will follow as soon as I go down the mountain to Kona town.

This is what I do for fun..