Advice On Re-applying For Visa

[pompeysi]

I am currently at the beginning stages of helping my fiance apply for a visa.

We have been together for 8 months, and lived together in Had Yai for 2 months. We also shared a hotel in Samui for the best part of another month.

In just over 2 weeks I am flying to Thailand to spend 3 weeks with her, and to help her as much as I can in that time with regards to the visa, and of course to see her again!

I have read through loads of the topics below and it all seems very useful. So I've already got copies of my passport, plane tickets, thai visa, renting appartment in had yai, photos, e mails, phone bills, proof of owning property, bank statements, utility bills etc.

Another big point I should mention is we were just refused a student visa for 1 year. Now there were verying reasons given for this, and I think we can NOW satisfy each of the reasons given. (The main being funding, her account could pay for the years english study, but not much else, although we did supply a letter stating I and my family would be looking after her accommodation and living costs - however I'm not disputing their decision) We really were gutted by the rejection but perhaps the year's education costs were high, so this has lead us to re-think and we no longer believe 1 year student visa is the right choice. We have since decided that a year's visit to study is too much. I'm not moaning or whinging, I can take the blame for my mistakes in the previous application.

Does anyone have any opinions on whether it would be better to re-apply for a student visa? Or to apply afresh for a visitor visa? The visitor visa (maximum 6 months at any time) is my gut feeling the right visa for us but does anyone have any experience on this?

We do plan on marrying at some stage as well. I have found the internet quite difficult in regards to getting advice in the differences and really chosing which visa I should apply for which probably lead me to being a bit ignorant with applying first time round and going straight for the student visa. Student, Visitor, Fiance and de facto visa's have all been preying on my mind.

How does the years applied for the visa effect the application. From the detail on the gov websites I can find it just seems to say "you can apply for 1,2,5 or 10 years". I'm tempted to go for a lower years in terms of proving money, but there is no doubt that we are planning for the relationship to go on much longer than that and include marriage so 5 or 10 years although unpredictable isn't out of scale.

In case I'm talking liberties, and you feel you can't help on giving any advice, can someone reccommend a immigration lawyer in bangkok? I don't know bangkok well, and the only offer of help my girlfriend has had is from the people in the office opposite the VAC, for 100,000 baht and from reading other threads, the strong advice is to ignore them.

Thanks very much if anyone can help, myself and my family never knew what a stressful and complicated application process it is. Well it was when I tried to the previous application just with the help of my girlfriend.

[atlastaname]

It really depends on what exactly you are seeking to do . You appear to be looking at all the types of visas available , but what is your primary objective here? Sounds to me like you just want to spend some time together but in the UK not Thailand . A very understandable position.

Really if that is what you want then its daft to go for a student visa. I always have thought how crazy it is that people from many countries come here on a student visa because the pretence that they want to study is the only option open to them when really their true intentions is either to work or to be with their loved ones . I know of many here in the UK who are on student visas and they do study (although waste of time as their english is of a high enough standard anyway), but their real reason is to work . And i know some that have used up their quota of visit visas for a while so come here on student visas PURELY to be with their other halfs. What a farcical system , why can't they just say they want to be with their loved ones and be done with it ? Well because they can't , not until they have been together 2 years anyway , and the government likes you to be spreading that 2 years co-habitation between UK and Thailand , great for those who have no job but no good for those who work full time in the UK.

So many are led to break the rules to stay together because it is made difficult for them to do otherwise.Why should a UK citizen quit the job they love just so they can spend part of the year in Thailand co-habiting to build up the 2 years they need to get the unmarried partners visa?

Now with you , seems you have the flexability to be in Thailand for long periods , and that said i think you should go for the visit visa because really your intentions are to be together . Enrolling her on a proper course of study in the UK when learning English is not your primary motive is both unneccessary and expensive.

You have the money, you have the accomodation (don't forget you DO have to prove this as well as just having it ) and you have the relationship which you must be open and honest about. There are lots of recent threads on this forum that you can read and answer your questions about satisfying the visitors visa criteria.

[atlastaname]

sorry forgot to add... you asked about the different lengths of visa you can apply for . The websites are very misleading when they talk about up to 10 years visas .. ordinary Thais will only get the minimum one which is 6 months , and again read the recent threads, don't ask for 6 months because that is too long for a first visit , ask for 1 month , you will be allowed to stay 6 months but remember if you say 1 month , then you will prejudice future applications if she stays much longer than that. READ THE RECENT THREADS

[GU22]

Firstly, do not pick the visa that you think will be the easiest to get and then try to shoehorn her into that visa; that way you will be certainly refused.

Apply for the visa that is suitable to her, and your, intentions.

From what you have said:-

A fiance visa is unsuitable as you have not yet made the final commitment to marry.

A student visa would be unsuitable as studying is not her main reason for coming to the UK.

So that leaves a visit visa.

Visit visas can be valid for the periods you mention, but however long the validity of the visa the holder cannot spend more than 6 months in the UK at any one time. Also, if she were to seek entry a second time such entry would be refused if it appeared that she would be spending more than 6 months out of any 12 in the UK, except in the most exceptional of circumstances. A visit visa is just that, it's for visits not long term residence.

Unless she has made several visits to the UK, or other countries, before it is unlikely that she would be given more than the minimum 6 months.

Provided you can show that she will be adequately accommodated and maintained during the visit, the main difficulty will be showing that she is a genuine visitor, i.e. coming to the UK for the reasons stated, and that she will leave the UK when or before the visa expires.

From what you have said you should have no difficulty in showing the first. Provide the evidence of the relationship you have outlined.

On the second point, if she has a job and is relying on that as her 'Reason to Return' then obviously she needs to provide proof of this and that she will still have a job when she returns i.e. a letter from her employer. Length of visit is a factor here as the ECO will not find it credible that an employer will hold a job for 6 months!

However, if the reason for the visit is so that she can meet your family and get a taste of the UK before committing to marriage then there is no reason why she should not say she is coming for the full 6 months. Provided the ECO is satisfied that the relationship is genuine and therefore the reason for the visit is genuine then the ECO will feel that you and she would not want to jeopardise any future settlement visa by overstaying a visit visa.

Countless couples have been in your position and obtained a visit visa for just that reason.

The one problem that you may have is the previous student application. The ECO will almost certainly want to know why she no longer wishes to pursue her studies in the UK. You have to provide a credible explanation.

For further info, see:-

Guidance - General information for Visitors Visa Applications

Guidance for Visitors Visa Applications

Guidance - Sponsors (INF 3)

UKVAC social visit checklist

Chapter 10 - Visit entry requirements

[pompeysi]

Thanks so much for those replies. This site really is a dream find for advice as I have been really stuck on who to turn to.

The advice about the student visa is spot on, it was a mistake. Although she does want to learn english and study here, the primary reason for her coming here is for us to be together and for her to get a taste of UK life. Her english is good, and she has spent a year as part of her degree in America before I met her. It was really ignorance on my part that lead me to go down the student route, when in essance we should have been more forward about us being together being the most important reason.

Yes atlastaname you are right, the primary reason is to spend time together in the UK, instead of Thailand. I have met her family and spent a vast amount of time in Thailand this year (which I was lucky to do) but I can't really move over there with current circumstances, and this 3 week visit coming up, in theory anyway, is the last realistic visit for me to Thailand. It would be nice for her to meet my family (those that she has not already met - some of my family are ex-pats in Thailand already) and to visit me and see how she finds the UK.

GU22, I think you are also right with what you said about me picking the visa I thought would be easier. The student visa seemed ideal as it was 1 year and also gave her the chance to study. However I fully accept I made a mistake now and will address that in the new application.

You have hit on a worry for me though and that is 'reason to return'. She has been working as a teacher in Had Yai but her contract ended earlier this month when she intended on joining me in England. So she is currently unemployed. But yes I think we can justify future applications eg fiance/marriage and would certainly not want to jepordise this.

Would an acceptable reason for explaining she no longer wants to study be that we have taken on board their comments about the cost of 1 years studying and also that the primary reason for a visa is our relationship and not studying. IE if I am completely honest and admit that I made an error of judgement in the first application, would this be accepted? I'd hate to think I will have stuffed up a genuine application by my error. The only way out of this is surely to be completely honest and admit my mistake in this current application?

Thanks again for your time. I'm going to see my solicitor tomorrow (who is a family friend) and get them to do certified copies of my passport, and also do you think a supporting letter stating they have been a family friend for 8+ years and know we are a good family etc would be a good idea?

You really should charge for this service! Thinking the people near the VAC get 100,000 baht and they just seem to want to push everyone for the most expensive fiance visa.

[binnsy]

Ilistened to them and applied for a settlement rather than a visitor visa and am now waiting on a appeal.

I only paid them 5000 for translation,2000 for the TB certificate.then the 18750 on top for the application all adds up!!!!!!!!

[GU22]

You are right about what you should say regarding the student application. Write a covering letter to say that at the time it seemed a good idea for her to further her studies in the UK and at the same time use this opportunity to get to know you and your family better before making the commitment to marry. Explain that having thought about it, and the points raised in the refusal, that you now realise that this would have completely impractical for a number of reasons, not least the cost of her course. Go on to say why you have now chosen a visit visa instead of a settlement one and that, all being well, you intend to apply for a settlement visa at a later date. Include lots of evidence to show that the relationship is genuine, and a brief history of the relationship and your future plans together, i.e. a rough estimate of when you intend to marry and whether it will be in the UK or Thailand. Stress that you know she cannot convert her visit visa to settlement and that she will need to return to Thailand to apply for settlement.

I'm going to see my solicitor tomorrow (who is a family friend) and get them to do certified copies of my passport, and also do you think a supporting letter stating they have been a family friend for 8+ years and know we are a good family etc would be a good idea?

As the solicitor knows you personally, i.e. other than just as a client, a character reference from him/her wont hurt. However, the Diplomatic Service Procedures say:

Chapter 8 – How to apply for an entry clearance – the process

8.10 - Undertakings by the applicant, sponsor or others

Undertakings from sponsors, MPs etc

Applications for entry clearance are sometimes supported by undertakings from a sponsor, Member of Parliament or other third parties. In this respect, only the undertaking of a sponsor on maintenance and accommodation is mentioned in the Rules (see following sub-section).

It follows that any other undertaking by a sponsor or any third party undertaking is unenforceable and no such undertakings should be sought by ECOs nor offers to provide one be accepted.

If an undertaking from a third party appears as an accompanying document to an application, you may consider it as a factor, but without disproportionate weight.

You really should charge for this service!

George has just been dissuaded from that idea! Don't give him cause to change his mind!

Thinking the people near the VAC get 100,000 baht and they just seem to want to push everyone for the most expensive fiance visa.

The people near the VAC are con artists. Avoid.

[pompeysi]

Thanks again GU22.

Do you know what the rules are about my fiance's statement? She should not have to pay anything once she is here, but she is worried that having little money will mean she won't get the visa.

[pompeysi]

Thanks again GU22.

Do you know what the rules are about my fiance's statement? She should not have to pay anything once she is here, but she is worried that having little money will mean she won't get the visa.

She doesn't need any money. Myself and my family will be supporting her. Does she need to show her statement at all? I believe if we applied for a fiance visa, it is just down to my account, but for a visitors visa she needs hers? Every time I turn a corner I come up against another wall I swear!

[GU22]

It wouldn't hurt to include her bank statements/passbook, but as you are offering to fund the trip completely from your resources, then it's not necessary.

It is your bank statements etc. that they will need to see. If your parents are also offering to pay for part of the trip then they should submit evidence of their ability to do so. However, if all your parents are offering is accommodation then they should just write a letter of invitation, including brief details of the accommodation available to show that there is room for her. If your parents rent then they should include a landlord's letter confirming that she can stay there. If they own then some proof of this, mortgage statement or copy of the deeds, would be helpful.

[pompeysi]

It wouldn't hurt to include her bank statements/passbook, but as you are offering to fund the trip completely from your resources, then it's not necessary.

It is your bank statements etc. that they will need to see. If your parents are also offering to pay for part of the trip then they should submit evidence of their ability to do so. However, if all your parents are offering is accommodation then they should just write a letter of invitation, including brief details of the accommodation available to show that there is room for her. If your parents rent then they should include a landlord's letter confirming that she can stay there. If they own then some proof of this, mortgage statement or copy of the deeds, would be helpful.

If it is not necessary then I don't think we will include it. Because we are going to fund the complete trip. That is definately a weight off my mind...........

My parents do own their house outright and have no mortgage, just finished paying it after 25+ years, so a copy of the deeds will be included. We also have an estate agent coming round tomorrow morning for an evaluation that I will include as I read on Rob's example in another thread that he included this.

Thanks again

[pompeysi]

Unfortunately refused today after a few days wait. No interview either.

Reason given was reason to return.

Although myself and parents are completely sponsoring the application and stay they wanted more information about my gf and her family. She has just graduated and has no job.

I'm intending on delaying my return flight a week and applying one last time.

Seems like its not gonna happen. Gutted.

[pompeysi]

Well I should say the rules about returning after 6 months was the reason, and also employment whilst in UK.

By the way, my full application was 168 pages (including photos, application forms, bills, etc etc), I really thought we had everything covered.

Intending to re-apply next monday asking for a smaller visit and include some extra paperwork .

Feel like I've been kicked servely in the stomach and been banging my head against a brick wall for 6 months!

Edited November 27, 2006 by pompeysi

[GU22]

Without seeing the full text of the refusal notice, it is impossible to say for sure; but my gut instinct is her previous student application is at the heart of the problem. As I said previously

The one problem that you may have is the previous student application. The ECO will almost certainly want to know why she no longer wishes to pursue her studies in the UK. You have to provide a credible explanation.

Refusing her without an interview makes me think they suspect that she is shopping around for a visa, and having failed with a student one is now trying a visit one.

You must address this point very carefully in the next application.