Sanders keeps his Judaism in the background, irking US Jews

[stillbornagain]

I also criticize Israeli government policies but that's not the same thing as obsessive Israel demonization which almost always is linked to Jew hating.

Really? Maybe I've missed it, but I've yet to see it on thaivisa.com Maybe it's something you do sotto voce, in the shower.

[Jingthing]

Really? Maybe I've missed it, but I've yet to see it on thaivisa.com Maybe it's something you do sotto voce, in the shower.

Too bad.

I've said many many times that Palestinian Arabs have real grievances with the Israeli government and also expressed opposition to the expansion of the west bank settlement movement. I also don't like to hear when more Jewish theocratic forces have too much power in Israeli domestic issues.

There is nothing wrong at all with normal criticism of the Israeli government as against any government. It's when it becomes obsessive demonization and the goals clearly about not respecting Israel's right to even exist when it bleeds into something hateful.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Jingthing

[stillbornagain]

The question really is about Bernie's loyalty to Israel. Unless he comes out as a strong supporter he will lose Jewish support i.e. AIPAC

AIPAC is basically an organization of Jewish Republicans. A distinct minority of the American Jewish vote.

It is true that the vast majority of American Jews are democrats, and liberally minded democrats as well. I don't really know about the percentage of republicans vs. democrats among people active with AIPAC, but sure of course more republicans. Like many American Jews, the idea that support for the existence and defense of Israel should become more of a partisan issue is a very unwelcome development. Personally I don't think that it really is as much as some people are hard selling. Hillary Clinton will most likely be the next U.S. president and you can hardly describe her as an enemy of Israel. She can count on 80 percent plus of the American Jewish vote vs. whatever republican (even much more explicitly "pro Israel" Rubio), as usual in any election year. American Jews vote on a mix of issues like any other constituency. So many people, unfairly I think, think Obama hasn't been pro Israel enough (and yes he is greatly hated by Israelis), but surprise surprise, he got the vast majority of the American Jewish vote both times, and would again if he could run.

Rubio's more strident right wing stance on Israel policy is more about attracting the votes of Christian pro-Zionists than Jews because he'll never get a lot of Jews. Yes, also of course, that position gets him money from right wing pro Israel lobbying forces so it's a win win for him.

On Israel policy, I think the majority of American Jews are somewhere in the middle between right wing AIPAC and left wing J-Street. Those are both activist lobby organizations and most everyday people are naturally more moderate.

Actually, according to the polls, the most stridently pro-Israel voting bloc are Evangelical Christians. But nobody seems to be questioning their loyalty to America.

In a way, it's akin to how Republicans can screw up royally, as in Iraq and, to cite ancient history, Vietnam (yes it was revved up by a Democratic president, but it was Democrats, not Republicans who brought him down. The conservative right ferociously supported the effort. Barry Goldwater wouldn't rule out the use of nuclear arms in the conflict).

[Jingthing]

Yes, Christian support is a very big thing. I think they tend to be too right wing, but Israelis are happy to get any support they can get and from their POV, understandable.

To me there is a big difference between supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself than to agree with every policy of every right wing Israeli government.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Jingthing

[stillbornagain]

Yes, Christian support is a very big thing. I think they tend to be too right wing, but Israelis are happy to get any support they can get and from their POV, understandable.

To me there is a big difference between supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself than to agree with every policy of every right wing Israeli government.

Unfortunately, you tend to justify all Israeli policies towards the Palestinians as being necessitated by self-defense.

[Jingthing]

Yes, Christian support is a very big thing. I think they tend to be too right wing, but Israelis are happy to get any support they can get and from their POV, understandable.

To me there is a big difference between supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself than to agree with every policy of every right wing Israeli government.

Unfortunately, you tend to justify all Israeli policies towards the Palestinians as being necessitated by self-defense.

OK, thanks for sharing your impression.

I'm not running for any office and never will.

So, whatever.

[otherstuff1957]

Yes, Bernie is ethnically Jewish. If elected, he will be the first Jewish US President. If Hillary is elected she will be the first women President. If Rubio or Cruz is elected, he will be the first Hispanic president. In fact, all of the presidential candidates would be breaking new ground if elected.....

except for Trump. We have had blowhard idiots who happened to be white males in office before.

[Jingthing]

Yes, Bernie is ethnically Jewish. If elected, he will be the first Jewish US President. If Hillary is elected she will be the first women President. If Rubio or Cruz is elected, he will be the first Hispanic president. In fact, all of the presidential candidates would be breaking new ground if elected.....

except for Trump. We have had blowhard idiots who happened to be white males in office before.

True, but Kasich still has a tiny chance in the event of some kind of brokered convention deal.

[Steely Dan]

Nobody's views should be deduced solely from their religion, ethnicity, gender, or anything else they were born with. What is of central importance is someone honestly representing their intentions and policies if elected. The rest is just identity politics.

I suspect the key question here is whether a candidate should correct people's misconceptions about their views and politics based on their identity based assumptions.

[Jingthing]

In any case, Bernie's main strength and weakness is his plain talking democratic socialism. Not his Jewish identity. That excites a significant portion of the democratic party base, but not a big enough part and more realistic democrats who might love what he's saying in their hearts feel (probably correctly) that he would get slaughtered in a general election. Even against a horrible choice like psychopathic demagogue Trump. So bye bye Bernie ... sorry to say.

It's not a bad thing to support an OK chance with a great chance of winning vs. a better choice with only a tiny chance of winning (in the general).

Edited March 1, 2016 by Jingthing

[stoffel45]

So Bernie Sanders is ashamed of his Jewish roots - so what?

Sanders is going absolutely nowhere - he won't be President, he won't be Vice President.

So cut the cackle he's not important.

[Jingthing]

So Bernie Sanders is ashamed of his Jewish roots - so what?

Sanders is going absolutely nowhere - he won't be President, he won't be Vice President.

So cut the cackle he's not important.

I agree he won't be nominated, or president obviously.

I don't agree that he's ashamed of being Jewish.

He's important enough ... a popular senator from Vermont. That's not chopped liver.

BTW, I think the headline of this thread is misleading. It says irking US Jews. Bernie's approach to his Jewish ethnicity may indeed irk a small minority of US Jews. The headline suggests that's widespread. It's not. I'm sure the vast majority of US Jews respect the way Bernie has handled this as being his own business.

[Johpa]

Some people take pride in their heritage and origin, others, try to hide it deep in the recesses of their souls and everyday life owing to all sorts of reasons one of not wanting to associate themselves with a troublesome and controversial ethnic background.... Bernie Sanders belong to the latter....

Your dualistic dichotomy is ridiculous. Ethnicity is not some particle (or more metaphorically some badge) that is either worn with pride or otherwise repressed. Most people I know of the Jewish persuasion (heritage) tend to be atheists, including countless Israelis, whose religious affinities are kept solely within the family, the place where all religious feelings belong in a pluralistic society. I only wish that the Republican candidates would keep their religion in the background of their campaign. For most people the Sander's family religious background is simply not an issue, neither troublesome nor controversial except perhaps to the fringe evangelical vote that is currently committed to Cruz. Of course there are probably some more orthodox Jews who see his marriage to a Roman Catholic as apostasy and thus deserving of ad hominem attacks. Or perhaps like myself, who also married outside my family's religious group, Sanders was partially excommunicated from the larger social world of that community. Yet, for what it is worth, most of the American Jews I know are big-time Sanders supporters.

[bendejo]

Anyone remember a few months ago when the president of Israel addressed the US Congress? The right-wing loved him. But the conservative fringe is as virulently anti-semitic as German propaganda in the 1930s. How does that work? Add to that these people all have a deep love of Jesus, who was a Jew. Maybe it is Israeli money, in the form of campaign contributions, that keeps the GOP politicians from going anti-Jew.

I've been waiting for Trump to stumble on this: his supporters will love it, but the media will only say "ooo, what he said!" But Trump will back off, saying he was really talking about "shrews," like his ex-wives. Then he'll claim he didn't hear the question because his head was up his ass.

If Bernie were to get the Dem nomination you can bet your bottom dollar there will some big-time Jew bashing. Glen Beck will add to his fortune by selling copies of Dr Zhivago and "Protocols" from his website.

[Ulysses G.]

But the conservative fringe is as virulently anti-semitic as German propaganda in the 1930s.

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[stillbornagain]

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

What utter nonsense! You actually believe that Jews subscribe to the Trinity? That God had a son who was flesh and blood? In the eyes of Jews who take theology seriously for some reason, the Trinity is a form of polytheism and heresy. Actually, the Jewish conception of God and the Islamic conception of God are virtually identical.

[HooHaa]

religion and ethnicity should come second to policy.

if he doesnt want to shout it from the roof tops or align himself with isreal, good for him.

i general avoid anyone who identifies themselves by religion, jew, arab, wasp, i simply am not interested beyond the way they comport themselves and their policies.

in this case it is a particualr special interest group trying to hijack his identity to suit their own aims.

he is better off staying aloof

Edited March 2, 2016 by HooHaa

[JingerBen]

Anyone remember a few months ago when the president of Israel addressed the US Congress? The right-wing loved him. But the conservative fringe is as virulently anti-semitic as German propaganda in the 1930s. How does that work? Add to that these people all have a deep love of Jesus, who was a Jew. Maybe it is Israeli money, in the form of campaign contributions, that keeps the GOP politicians from going anti-Jew.

I've been waiting for Trump to stumble on this: his supporters will love it, but the media will only say "ooo, what he said!" But Trump will back off, saying he was really talking about "shrews," like his ex-wives. Then he'll claim he didn't hear the question because his head was up his ass.

If Bernie were to get the Dem nomination you can bet your bottom dollar there will some big-time Jew bashing. Glen Beck will add to his fortune by selling copies of Dr Zhivago and "Protocols" from his website.

You're absolutely on the money.

Dr.Zhivago and much much more.

Perhaps even Solzhenitsyn's Two Hundred Years Together fully translated into English.

[Ulysses G.]

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

What utter nonsense!

You do understand that the Old Testament is considered by Christians to be a Jewish book, written by Jews under the inspiration of God, to proclaim God's name to all mankind? The New Testament was written entirely by Jews as well. In fact, Christianity is inherently Jewish and was begun by all Jews. It could easily be described as Gentiles -and some Jews - recognizing Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah of the Old Testament. Jews and Christians don't have all the same beliefs, but both religions are interwoven.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Thorgal]

The question really is about Bernie's loyalty to Israel. Unless he comes out as a strong supporter he will lose Jewish support i.e. AIPAC

AIPAC is basically an organization of Jewish Republicans. A distinct minority of the American Jewish vote.

Actually US presidential elections is not a popular vote. The US electoral college is voting for the new president, and not the people.

US history counts 3 presidents who won the elections from the electoral college without winning the popular vote.

In the case of Sanders, his affinity to a religion or another country isn't relevant. The lobbying behind the electoral college is more important and are oftenly far from the US patriotic character.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Thorgal

[HenryB]

Maybe because he up being a Jew and now is Catholic?

His wife and children and all her Children are

[Ulysses G.]

Yes, Christian support is a very big thing. I think they tend to be too right wing, but Israelis are happy to get any support they can get and from their POV, understandable.

To me there is a big difference between supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself than to agree with every policy of every right wing Israeli government.

Unfortunately, you tend to justify all Israeli policies towards the Palestinians as being necessitated by self-defense.

Which is perfectly legitimate. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place and then resorted to a campaign of ongoing terrorism after being beaten in numerous wars - even with the help of five huge Arab countries.

[dexterm]

Yes, Christian support is a very big thing. I think they tend to be too right wing, but Israelis are happy to get any support they can get and from their POV, understandable.

To me there is a big difference between supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself than to agree with every policy of every right wing Israeli government.

Unfortunately, you tend to justify all Israeli policies towards the Palestinians as being necessitated by self-defense.

Which is perfectly legitimate. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place and then resorted to a campaign of ongoing terrorism after being beaten in numerous wars - even with the help of five huge Arab countries.

The usual way off topic mythological pseudo history. Save it for another thread when we are discussing the Middle East conflict, and not simply Bernie Sanders private beliefs.

[DaddyWarbucks]

Yes, Christian support is a very big thing. I think they tend to be too right wing, but Israelis are happy to get any support they can get and from their POV, understandable.

To me there is a big difference between supporting the right of Israel to exist and defend itself than to agree with every policy of every right wing Israeli government.

Unfortunately, you tend to justify all Israeli policies towards the Palestinians as being necessitated by self-defense.

Which is perfectly legitimate. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place and then resorted to a campaign of ongoing terrorism after being beaten in numerous wars - even with the help of five huge Arab countries.

I'm sure Sanders would agree that there is legitimate self-defense for Israel.

It would be protecting their country from within their internationally recognized 1967 borders.

On the other hand, building illegal settlements, forcing people out of their homes and off their land on the basis of a 2000 year old land claim is repulsive by anybody's reckoning.

[mikebike]

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

What utter nonsense!

You do understand that the Old Testament is considered by Christians to be a Jewish book, written by Jews under the inspiration of God, to proclaim God's name to all mankind? The New Testament was written entirely by Jews as well. In fact, Christianity is inherently Jewish and was begun by all Jews. It could easily be described as Gentiles -and some Jews - recognizing Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah of the Old Testament. Jews and Christians don't have all the same beliefs, but both religions are interwoven.

If you are going to bundle Jewish and Christian faith you must also tie Islam into the bundle.

[Galactus]

But the conservative fringe is as virulently anti-semitic as German propaganda in the 1930s.

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

it was Jews crucified Jesus directly or indirectly, no?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Galactus

[Galactus]

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

What utter nonsense!

You do understand that the Old Testament is considered by Christians to be a Jewish book, written by Jews under the inspiration of God, to proclaim God's name to all mankind? The New Testament was written entirely by Jews as well. In fact, Christianity is inherently Jewish and was begun by all Jews. It could easily be described as Gentiles -and some Jews - recognizing Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah of the Old Testament. Jews and Christians don't have all the same beliefs, but both religions are interwoven.

i believe christianity, judaism and islam, all same and interwoven with blood and nonsense.

all those religions oppressing each other.

[stillbornagain]

The conservative "fringe" that hates Jews is tiny. Most conservatives respect their faith. After all, the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one and both use The Old Testament.

On the other hand, the far left and not so far left is extremely anti-Semitic. They are a lot more worried about protecting Islam than Jews.

What utter nonsense!

You do understand that the Old Testament is considered by Christians to be a Jewish book, written by Jews under the inspiration of God, to proclaim God's name to all mankind? The New Testament was written entirely by Jews as well. In fact, Christianity is inherently Jewish and was begun by all Jews. It could easily be described as Gentiles -and some Jews - recognizing Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah of the Old Testament. Jews and Christians don't have all the same beliefs, but both religions are interwoven.

"{the Jewish God is exactly the same as the Christian one " As I noted in my original post (for some reason you decided to cut most of it out) Orthodox jews regard Christianity as a form of polytheism.. The idea of God being incarnated in the flesh is blasphemous to both Jews and Moslems who take this stuff seriously. Jews and Moslems are absolute monotheists. And remember, that Christians call the Jewish Bible the Old Testament. They call it that because for most of their history they believed that when Jews refused to accept Jesus as the son of God, the Jews' special relation with Yahweh was null and void. Just late in the 20th century did they start changing their tune. And Moslems do Abraham, Moses, and Jesus as prophets of God. Anyway, trying to understand how the respective religions of Christianity and Islam treated the Jews by studying their texts is a fool's mission. You should look at the actual record i.e. history.

[JHolmesJr]

I don't get the topic headline…being a jew means being perpetually irked.

[Jingthing]

I don't get the topic headline…being a jew means being perpetually irked.

You have a problem with Jews, dude?