Under The Current Climate Would You Buy A Condo?

[backflip]

steve,

You are exactly right. So many TVers post dire warnings of using a company to buy property ("it's illegal, you will lose evrything, run awayyyyy"). When I've asked for a name of any farang that lost his property because a company was declared illegal, all of a sudden the posters are quiet. On the other hand, many guys have lost their homes due to a GF, or a wife.

[palm]

I go along with those that think buying is an unecessary risk.

Way too many legal obstacles and very little rights or protections for the farang buyer.

The other issue is that it is difficult to sell if you need to get out in a hurry.

Much easier to rent in Thailand and if troubles come by way of neighbours, disgruntled work colleagues, grudges, tone of area etc pack your bags and move on.

Invest money in your home country and spend the proceeds in Thailand.

If you rent a condo in Thailand, you cannot:

- knock down all the walls and install real wood floors

- install your own doors and fixtures and fittings

- install a huge Jacuzzi in your bedroom that looks out over Bangkok at night

- build a dream kitchen

- paint your walls any colour you like

- decorate your 'home' to the exact style you like

- benefit from any appreciation in the value of your property

I am lucky enough to have 4 properties around the world, plus a lot of land, and I've never understood why someone would prefer to 'rent' somewhere, over being able to own their own place and make it into a real home. If you deal with a reputable construction company and have a decent lawyer, and do all prudent checks, investing in a condo here is no different to most other major countries.

Plus, I've never come across ANYONE who has lost ownership of their condo because of Thai Government policy etc, nor have my friends and nor have the law firms I know here. It's all a load of bar-talk b****cks.

Property in Bangkok is still DIRT CHEAP compared to major Western cities, and even with a tourist Visa you can easily come and go all year long. I have twice the floorspace here in Bangkok as my apartment in Central London which is valued at 3 times as much.

[dsfbrit]

steve,

You are exactly right. So many TVers post dire warnings of using a company to buy property ("it's illegal, you will lose evrything, run awayyyyy"). When I've asked for a name of any farang that lost his property because a company was declared illegal, all of a sudden the posters are quiet. On the other hand, many guys have lost their homes due to a GF, or a wife.

Spot on.

In fact its totally in line with my thinking and also of the 'quiet majority' I suspect.

[xbusman]

Absolutely no one is saying DONT BUY IN THAILAND. I think you need to get off that wagon. Buying is great for some and terrible for others. UP 2 U!!!!

What you want to keep in mind though is that we are GUESTS of HM. I would recommend you look up William Monson and his adventures with Thaksin. There is NO rule of law here, you are entirely unprotected and OBVIOUSLY dont realize it. THATS THE POINT, you need to understand and be realistic about your status here. Granted the vast majority are pretty savvy people and adept at staying out of harms way, as far as third world goes its the best of the lot in my opinion.

Posted somewhere earlier on this thread is a news report of a temple that got scammed. In a nutshell the temple bought the land from a caretaker who for some time represented herself as the owner. Her daughter in the land office forged some documents showing official ownership certified by the Thai government. They got the abbot for 10 million with forged government documents by a government employee. The owner finds out (probably part of the scam) sues the temple and takes the land back. The courts tell the Wat "TOO BAD".

Want to chat about Temesak???? Lets talk about the Singapore government doing a deal with the prime minister and now it is well on the way of being null and void. If you happen to be Prime Minister and get caught in the labrynth, what chance does Joe the English teacher have? GET IT?

The concept I want to get across is that investing here is entirely up to the individuals wants and needs, just never invest more than you can comfortably roll around tobacco and smoke. Why would you do that anyway, does not seem very bright. Bogus companies, faux marriages, borrowing money for visas, even the idea of visa runs, just to put money in a place where you have no legal rights or protections? What are these people thinking.

IF you want to dump everything you got into Thailand, for goodness sakes, immigrate! Become a citizen and enjoy the benefits and legality. You too can have 30 baht medical coverage AND the right to vote, pay taxes, and own property. Until then, keep safe and smart.

[stevejones123]

Forged deeds are not at all uncommon in Asia, or indeed elsewhere (the trick in Spain used to be to sell the same condo twenty times over on the same day at twenty different notaries public). However that has nothing to do with you not having any rights; as you have pointed out it happens to those who do have rights.

As to what chance does Joe Public stand if big businesses lost tens of million dollars in business ventures, the answer is a lot better chance because he's not investing in a business. People fall out with their business partners all over the world, it is normally exceptionally messy to try and solve matters throught the courts and Thailand is no exception.

The foreigner is at a certain disadvantage here; he is an outsider and his problems are often compounded by the fact he doesn't speak the language. Also the importance of real estate transactions has increased by an order of magnitude recently, and the regulations have not yet caught up. But this doesn't meant that you are likely to lose your whole investment at any time; it means that you should be extra careful and remember that the level of due diligence should be much higher than it would in your home country (as opposed to letting your guard down as so many do outside of home).

[thaigene2]

What you want to keep in mind though is that we are GUESTS of HM. I would recommend you look up William Monson and his adventures with Thaksin. There is NO rule of law here, you are entirely unprotected and OBVIOUSLY dont realize it. THATS THE POINT, you need to understand and be realistic about your status here. Granted the vast majority are pretty savvy people and adept at staying out of harms way, as far as third world goes its the best of the lot in my opinion.

This really pretty much sums it up I think. While you're Googling for this US businessman's misadventures you could also check back issues of the Post and Nation and see what happened to Carlsberg beer here...and Pizza Hut a few years before that..and you'll see that the list of Western businesspeople learning that due dilligence is a phrase with no meaning here is rather long.

The latest to learn are Temasek, Tesco, Big-C...but oh look not Seven-Eleven..(oops sorry..an American name but owned lock-stock-and-barrel by Charoen Popkrand (CP Group).

You have no protection here. Zero. Always remember that. This country is run by and for a few thousand people. It's their plaything..end of story.

[Cyberstar]

What you want to keep in mind though is that we are GUESTS of HM. I would recommend you look up William Monson and his adventures with Thaksin. There is NO rule of law here, you are entirely unprotected and OBVIOUSLY dont realize it. THATS THE POINT, you need to understand and be realistic about your status here. Granted the vast majority are pretty savvy people and adept at staying out of harms way, as far as third world goes its the best of the lot in my opinion.

This really pretty much sums it up I think. While you're Googling for this US businessman's misadventures you could also check back issues of the Post and Nation and see what happened to Carlsberg beer here...and Pizza Hut a few years before that..and you'll see that the list of Western businesspeople learning that due dilligence is a phrase with no meaning here is rather long.

The latest to learn are Temasek, Tesco, Big-C...but oh look not Seven-Eleven..(oops sorry..an American name but owned lock-stock-and-barrel by Charoen Popkrand (CP Group).

You have no protection here. Zero. Always remember that. This country is run by and for a few thousand people. It's their plaything..end of story.

Curiously to see these multinational "brands" mentioned in this context. Aren't they but clear examples of someone obeying to the number one rule advocated throughout this thread? "Don't invest more .. etc."? ... Can't talk much about the Thai adventure's influence on Pizza Hut's global finances, but I happened to follow Carlsberg on the Danish stock exchange in those days where their Thailand related problems were at the frontpage - I can assure you, whatever influence their Thai misfurtune may have had on share value in their petty little homecountry - it wasn't noticeable compared to the influence of (nothing but) rumeors of yet another EU 0.25 interest raise.

Well, I've been an interested reader of this thread ... and I most certainly do agree that "don't invest more in Thailand, than you can handle to walk away from" rightfully is referred to as rule #1. However, for those many of us (whoever "us" might be) who have already made our investments and are having the (fun?) struggle of making it worthwhile as an EXCITING part of our daily lives, that rule isn't much but a good thing to keep in mind whenever business requires us to consider expansion.

Let's go a step further and consider adequate rules for not loosing the investment after the deed is done - maybe a bit in violation of rule #1 (if you don't take a risk, life gets boring). I'd say guys like Carlsberg, Pizza Hut, Tesco Lotus, etc ... lost because they didn't obey rule #3: If you have success in Thailand - keep a low profile.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Cyberstar

[Jeddah Jo]

steve,

You are exactly right. So many TVers post dire warnings of using a company to buy property ("it's illegal, you will lose evrything, run awayyyyy"). When I've asked for a name of any farang that lost his property because a company was declared illegal, all of a sudden the posters are quiet. On the other hand, many guys have lost their homes due to a GF, or a wife.

Spot on.

In fact its totally in line with my thinking and also of the 'quiet majority' I suspect.

Yes, but what sort of a life is it where you have to spend your entire life scouring internet bulletin boards trying to second guess if the government are going to declare the ownership of your property illegal.

[backflip]

"What sort of a life is it where you have to spend your entire life...trying to second guess if the government are going to declare the ownership of your property illegal."

What sort of life is it when you're scared of your own shadow, when you run and hide form those who disagree from your point of view, when you're afraid of living life to its fullest, when you worry incessantly about the THB excahnge rate, the price of beer and cigarettes, when you believe every non-farang is out to cheat you out of your money, and that every farang is out to steal your woman?

I worry about the important things, none which include you, other worry warts, sad sacks, Chicken Littles, money, companionship, or the Thai government.

[Heng]

If you rent a condo in Thailand, you cannot:

- knock down all the walls and install real wood floors

- install your own doors and fixtures and fittings

- install a huge Jacuzzi in your bedroom that looks out over Bangkok at night

- build a dream kitchen

- paint your walls any colour you like

- decorate your 'home' to the exact style you like

Sure you can. You just have to ask permission first. Likely there will be a clause in the rental agreement that doesn't allow you to remove anything attached to the property when your lease expires.

[thaihome]

"What sort of a life is it where you have to spend your entire life...trying to second guess if the government are going to declare the ownership of your property illegal."

What sort of life is it when you're scared of your own shadow, when you run and hide form those who disagree from your point of view, when you're afraid of living life to its fullest, when you worry incessantly about the THB excahnge rate, the price of beer and cigarettes, when you believe every non-farang is out to cheat you out of your money, and that every farang is out to steal your woman?

I worry about the important things, none which include you, other worry warts, sad sacks, Chicken Littles, money, companionship, or the Thai government.

TH

[dsfbrit]

"What sort of a life is it where you have to spend your entire life...trying to second guess if the government are going to declare the ownership of your property illegal."

What sort of life is it when you're scared of your own shadow, when you run and hide form those who disagree from your point of view, when you're afraid of living life to its fullest, when you worry incessantly about the THB excahnge rate, the price of beer and cigarettes, when you believe every non-farang is out to cheat you out of your money, and that every farang is out to steal your woman?

I worry about the important things, none which include you, other worry warts, sad sacks, Chicken Littles, money, companionship, or the Thai government.

TH

I believe you are right in your basic assertion.

I think most of us Expats who came here to retire knowing Thailand very well, are not at all surprised by all the changes.

I am 52 now, so suspect there will be many many changes during my lifetime.

No doubt they will be inconsistent and poorly implemented - normal stuff in LOS in my opinion - but I dont see these changes as problems that cannot be overcome.

Like you, I think if we were not prepared to face a set of 'challenges' in LOS then we should have stayed in the relatively secure 'comfort zone' in our home country.

Live in the UK - no thanks - changes in LOS to visa / land/ exchange rates - bring it on as I think the Americans say.

Mind you I suspect that you, like me are wealthy enough to 'ride' anything that is thrown at us - employ good lawyers - I have sympathy for those poor souls who dont!

Edited November 20, 2006 by dsfbrit

[Tornado]

I personally would only buy a free hold condo in my name, with the current situation, free hold condos are being sold daily. All free hold condos are walking out the door hourly in Phuket as this is the only "safe" option. I unfortunately dont have any left to sell as I sold the last one I know of this morning. Ive sent the boys out searching for others.

Investor advice: buy free hold condos off the plan and put it back on the market at a 20% increase after build (or during). I bought one in an exclusive place in Surin and made money within two weeks after putting down my deposit (4 mil). I bought for 13 mil and sold for 16,200,000 - After taxes, a nice profit.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Tornado

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I personally would only buy a free hold condo in my name, with the current situation, free hold condos are being sold daily. All free hold condos are walking out the door hourly in Phuket as this is the only "safe" option. I unfortunately dont have any left to sell as I sold the last one I know of this morning. Ive sent the boys out searching for others.

Investor advice: buy free hold condos off the plan and put it back on the market at a 20% increase after build (or during). I bought one in an exclusive place in Surin and made money within two weeks after putting down my deposit (4 mil). I bought for 13 mil and sold for 16,200,000 - After taxes, a nice profit.

Good advice Torny. In this guys position he should go for it.

[Tolley]

I go along with those that think buying is an unecessary risk.

Way too many legal obstacles and very little rights or protections for the farang buyer.

The other issue is that it is difficult to sell if you need to get out in a hurry.

Much easier to rent in Thailand and if troubles come by way of neighbours, disgruntled work colleagues, grudges, tone of area etc pack your bags and move on.

Invest money in your home country and spend the proceeds in Thailand.

If you rent a condo in Thailand, you cannot:

- knock down all the walls and install real wood floors

- install your own doors and fixtures and fittings

- install a huge Jacuzzi in your bedroom that looks out over Bangkok at night

- build a dream kitchen

- paint your walls any colour you like

- decorate your 'home' to the exact style you like

- benefit from any appreciation in the value of your property

I am lucky enough to have 4 properties around the world, plus a lot of land, and I've never understood why someone would prefer to 'rent' somewhere, over being able to own their own place and make it into a real home. If you deal with a reputable construction company and have a decent lawyer, and do all prudent checks, investing in a condo here is no different to most other major countries.

Plus, I've never come across ANYONE who has lost ownership of their condo because of Thai Government policy etc, nor have my friends and nor have the law firms I know here. It's all a load of bar-talk b****cks.

Property in Bangkok is still DIRT CHEAP compared to major Western cities, and even with a tourist Visa you can easily come and go all year long. I have twice the floorspace here in Bangkok as my apartment in Central London which is valued at 3 times as much.

Quite frankly i don't care about knocking down walls and building stuff.....not my thing

The point is that the whole Thai land deal thing is too much hassle.

I would rather invest my money where i know there are less hassles and that means not in Thailand.

I don't have money to lose or to waste on non performing assets.

It is true that you might be lucky in Thailand and actually make a reasonable return from a house or condo purchase but plenty don't and plenty have problems selling when they want to get out.

I can't afford to take a risk and THailand has way too many risks.

[astral]

If you rent a condo in Thailand, you cannot:

- knock down all the walls and install real wood floors

- install your own doors and fixtures and fittings

- install a huge Jacuzzi in your bedroom that looks out over Bangkok at night

- build a dream kitchen

- paint your walls any colour you like

- decorate your 'home' to the exact style you like

Sure you can. You just have to ask permission first. Likely there will be a clause in the rental agreement that doesn't allow you to remove anything attached to the property when your lease expires.

Landlord's fittings.

I am sure he will be delighted with all the items you have given him, at your expense.

[unforgiven]

these are all accurate comments,but your ignoring the 2 greatest factors...1 tourism is thailands #1 industry...

Uh, afraid not even close... Biggest industry is mass farming for export, followed closely by various manufacturing.

You spend far too much time in one of maybe 4 places to have any idea what Thailand is about.

TH

I disagree buddy in capital terms tourism generates the greatest gnp (do you know what gnp is genus),check your facts and I've lived here on and of since 1989 for a combined total of about 10 years

Oh great one, why don't you enlighten me with your 10 years living in Thailand and give me some facts that back-up your bold statement?

TH

Some facts, check the government sites, it's all there.Tourism and related industries is the greatest % of gnp... not gdp..... GNP.........do you have any economics backgrond?

Here are some links :

Even by GNP, unless you call the entire services industry as "tourism", it comes second to industry.

Thailand GNP

What I see translates into billions baht (at 35 USD):

agriculture:637

industry: 2,838

services: 2,961

TAT estimates tourism at about 368 billion baht, allowing for the huge unreported part of the tourism industry you could even more than triple to 1,000 billion baht and still does not approach non-tourism.

And please, if you have something else to say , post sources for your facts

And if you are going to insist on a CV with emphasis on economics, please post yours first, you made the claim first.

Who knows, you may have PhD in economic from University Chicagoand just blow me out of the water....

But then again, you could have sat on barstool on Beach Rd for 10 years and have now idea what actually makes Thailand tick.

Me, I'm just a lowly oil and gas sort of guy, doing ok in Thailand...

Over to you

TH

I'm in toronto canada,I'm a businessman and I have a BA with a minor in economics .... no phdEconomy Thailand

Economy - overview: Thailand has a free-enterprise economy and welcomes foreign investment. Exports feature textiles and footwear, fishery products, rice, rubber, jewelry, automobiles, computers and electrical appliances. Thailand has recovered from the 1997-98 Asian Financial Crisis and was one of East Asia's best performers in 2002. Increased consumption and investment spending and strong export growth pushed GDP growth up to 6.3% in 2003 despite a sluggish global economy. The highly popular government has pushed an expansionist policy, including major support of village economic development.

GDP: purchasing power parity - $475.7 billion (2003 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 6.3% (2003 est.)

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $7,400 (2003 est.)

GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 9%

industry: 42%

services: 49% (2002)

Population below poverty line: 10.4% (2002 est.)

Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10%: 2.8%

highest 10%: 32.4% (1998)

Distribution of family income - Gini index: 41.4 (1998)

Inflation rate (consumer prices): 1.8% (2003 est.)

Labor force: 33.4 million (2001 est.)

services and tourism are so highly integrate in Thailand,they must be considered one :jap:btw 2961 billion is greater than 2838 billion.... genius

Edited November 21, 2006 by unforgiven

[think_too_mut]

had he known how to use quotes when replying, there might be some sense in the above mess.

[Heng]

If you rent a condo in Thailand, you cannot:

- knock down all the walls and install real wood floors

- install your own doors and fixtures and fittings

- install a huge Jacuzzi in your bedroom that looks out over Bangkok at night

- build a dream kitchen

- paint your walls any colour you like

- decorate your 'home' to the exact style you like

Sure you can. You just have to ask permission first. Likely there will be a clause in the rental agreement that doesn't allow you to remove anything attached to the property when your lease expires.

Landlord's fittings.

I am sure he will be delighted with all the items you have given him, at your expense.

In general, yes. Sometimes our tenants have done a pretty good job stripping the fittings as well. As long as there isn't serious damage, we generally don't make an issue out of it. Just another cost of doing business with rentals/leasing property.

[pkrv]

Perhaps the true answer to all of the above is encapsulated in an old English expression "Put your money where your mouth is?"

[thaihome]

...services and tourism are so highly integrate in Thailand,they must be considered one :jap:btw 2961 billion is greater than 2838 billion.... genius

If you think most of the services in Thailand are only related to tourism, then that shows you how little you actually know about it. I gave an estimate, backed up by published facts, of how much of the services was tourism.

You have given no facts, other than a quote from a link a provided.

I'm done arguing with you about it.

TH

[Heng]

...services and tourism are so highly integrate in Thailand,they must be considered one :jap:btw 2961 billion is greater than 2838 billion.... genius

If you think most of the services in Thailand are only related to tourism, then that shows you how little you actually know about it. I gave an estimate, backed up by published facts, of how much of the services was tourism.

You have given no facts, other than a quote from a link a provided.

I'm done arguing with you about it.

TH

Thaihome easily won that argument. Not suprising though that many folks do believe that tourism is the center of the Thai economy though. It's what they see everyday, and there is likely a psychological need for them to believe it as well.

[PeaceBlondie]

Count me as a member of the doom and gloom brigade. A few reasons:

My first house, zip code similar to 90210 - we owned for about four years, sold for no profit.

We moved around, not making profits. Decided to sell a home we'd had for several years, 50% above our cost, and a real Realtor really told us we'd never sell at a profit of 1%. On the first morning I put it up for sale, the first caller paid full price. So we gambled on a big old house in a bad neighborhood, didn't get title to it, and it went from $25.6 to $34.0 in one year - even though a lawyer told me not to get it without title. Went down the street, got title to a triplex (furnished) for $17,500. Renovated it, sold it for $34,000, and lost my equity in a closing scam that was unprecedented in the history of that state.

Went to another city, bought a nice 4 bedroom house in a neighborhood we knew, and in the middle of a divorce and a real estate burst bubble, I lost all my equity and was lucky not to owe the difference (thanks to insurance).

Before I ever stepped foot in Asia, I met a guy on the internet, who lived in Thailand. Thai wife, kids, etc. He was deported for what wouldn't even be a misdemeanor back home.

My Thai boyfriend and 100 more Thais bought - thought they were buying - a new home off plan. The Thai developer took the money and ran away, without building the homes or refunding one satang.

Oh, I take an exception to doom and gloom. If you're totally fluent in Thai language and have two Thai degrees in Thai law, are well connected, know how to interview front desk clerks and Land Office employees, go for it.

Point is: if farang get swindled out of real property in their home country, and get deported in Thailand, and Thais get swindled out of property purchases in Thailand - what makes us think we're so much more clever than the Thais who control the system?

Oh, and I paid 6,500 baht per month for a glorious (poorly maintained, poorly built) condo that maybe sold for 1,300,000 baht. Why buy when rent only costs 0.5% per month?

[Heng]

Yeah, but how much would your family's net worth be improved if you never sold any of those houses/properties? Imagine all the pastries and Pepsi Max beneath the picture of elder family member PB in the ancestor room of your grandchild's home.

[PeaceBlondie]

Yeah, but how much would your family's net worth be improved if you never sold any of those houses/properties? Imagine all the pastries and Pepsi Max beneath the picture of elder family member PB in the ancestor room of your grandchild's home.

It's okay, Heng. Maybe my daughter will never sell her home in Alamo Heights, and there will be a photo of my Honda CBR150 on the mantle (if they install a fireplace). Her mother and I were raised to believe homes were to live in, and not that the values went up. Still, location does help, and I don't know which part of Chiang Mai resembles Beverly Hills.

[thaigene2]

For those of you reading these property threads or Thaivisa for the first few times, you'll notice there are people who talk up the property market - alot. You've no doubt figured out why.

I went to the Condo Expo today at Bangkok Convention Center. Many of the condos being promoted were 'sold out' or had only a few units left. Which raises the question why advertize? I mean, they're already sold out right? Thais have paid their money and are anxiously awaiting the moment they can move in and enjoy, right? Don't be so sure.

To understand all this talk about a booming always-rising sold-out market in condos you need to look at how buying 'off-plan' works.

You pay a deposit - not much - only 20,000 B or so, then you pay another deposit of 80,000 or so a few weeks later. Then each month you drip feed 10 or 15,000 for around 15 or 16 month until the project is finished. So it may well appear that the place is indeed nearly sold out since all thsoe people have paid their deposits, etc.

So by the time it's built - on a condo worth say 7 million baht, you've only paid around 300,000 - 400,000 Baht. You don't pay the rest til its time to move in. In other words the 6.7 million baht is still in the bank. But no one ever bothers to check whether you actually HAVE the 6.7 million! So it's a game that Thais play. They like their Chinese gandparents are born to gamble they love it.

And they are gambling that they won;t have to cough up the 6.7 million. They are gambling that prices along with the pyramid will continue to rise and they will sell to 'someone else' (get to that in a second) a few months before completion - at a profit of course - because 'prices always rise'.

Interestingly, I spoke to afew Thais who were speculating today and I spoke a few weeks back to some Thais in my office who've bought to either flip before completion or - in some cases rent. And guess who they all said were their target customers? Yes..Farangs.

They don't seem to understand that their own government is drying up the market for these Thai middle-class speculators by cracking down on the farangs who want to live here without work permits. No farangs, considerably less market.

So what would happen if these buildings get to the completion point and then ask all those 'sold-out' customers for the 90% final payment? What happens if they haven't flipped and worse - don't have the money (the 6.7 million)? Does the bank reposess from the developer?

The above is not scientific..but it's worth thinking about.

[Casanundra]

For those of you reading these property threads or Thaivisa for the first few times, you'll notice there are people who talk up the property market - alot. You've no doubt figured out why.

I went to the Condo Expo today at Bangkok Convention Center. Many of the condos being promoted were 'sold out' or had only a few units left. Which raises the question why advertize? I mean, they're already sold out right? Thais have paid their money and are anxiously awaiting the moment they can move in and enjoy, right? Don't be so sure.

To understand all this talk about a booming always-rising sold-out market in condos you need to look at how buying 'off-plan' works.

You pay a deposit - not much - only 20,000 B or so, then you pay another deposit of 80,000 or so a few weeks later. Then each month you drip feed 10 or 15,000 for around 15 or 16 month until the project is finished. So it may well appear that the place is indeed nearly sold out since all thsoe people have paid their deposits, etc.

So by the time it's built - on a condo worth say 7 million baht, you've only paid around 300,000 - 400,000 Baht. You don't pay the rest til its time to move in. In other words the 6.7 million baht is still in the bank. But no one ever bothers to check whether you actually HAVE the 6.7 million! So it's a game that Thais play. They like their Chinese gandparents are born to gamble they love it.

And they are gambling that they won;t have to cough up the 6.7 million. They are gambling that prices along with the pyramid will continue to rise and they will sell to 'someone else' (get to that in a second) a few months before completion - at a profit of course - because 'prices always rise'.

Interestingly, I spoke to afew Thais who were speculating today and I spoke a few weeks back to some Thais in my office who've bought to either flip before completion or - in some cases rent. And guess who they all said were their target customers? Yes..Farangs.

They don't seem to understand that their own government is drying up the market for these Thai middle-class speculators by cracking down on the farangs who want to live here without work permits. No farangs, considerably less market.

So what would happen if these buildings get to the completion point and then ask all those 'sold-out' customers for the 90% final payment? What happens if they haven't flipped and worse - don't have the money (the 6.7 million)? Does the bank reposess from the developer?

Couldn't have put it better myself and it's for all the speculations above that I have decided to not buy. Instead I am watching 2 or 3 favourites and will pop along sometime after completetion date and see how many condos didn't convert, see how much the asking price is compared to the original selling price, have a closer look at the quality and then see which way the wind is blowing...

There are too many empty Condo's going around Bonking Bangers at the moment and talking to a few rental places I am already hearing crys of woe from the management who have seen truck loads of foreigners get up and leave with no one to replace them for long term rentals.

In the mean time, 90% of the money remains offshore earning gross with Blighty calling out to me with opps to top up the pot underneath the rainbow for another less rainy day in Thailand

[ya5702]

For those of you reading these property threads or Thaivisa for the first few times, you'll notice there are people who talk up the property market - alot. You've no doubt figured out why.

I went to the Condo Expo today at Bangkok Convention Center. Many of the condos being promoted were 'sold out' or had only a few units left. Which raises the question why advertize? I mean, they're already sold out right? Thais have paid their money and are anxiously awaiting the moment they can move in and enjoy, right? Don't be so sure.

To understand all this talk about a booming always-rising sold-out market in condos you need to look at how buying 'off-plan' works.

You pay a deposit - not much - only 20,000 B or so, then you pay another deposit of 80,000 or so a few weeks later. Then each month you drip feed 10 or 15,000 for around 15 or 16 month until the project is finished. So it may well appear that the place is indeed nearly sold out since all thsoe people have paid their deposits, etc.

So by the time it's built - on a condo worth say 7 million baht, you've only paid around 300,000 - 400,000 Baht. You don't pay the rest til its time to move in. In other words the 6.7 million baht is still in the bank. But no one ever bothers to check whether you actually HAVE the 6.7 million! So it's a game that Thais play. They like their Chinese gandparents are born to gamble they love it.

And they are gambling that they won;t have to cough up the 6.7 million. They are gambling that prices along with the pyramid will continue to rise and they will sell to 'someone else' (get to that in a second) a few months before completion - at a profit of course - because 'prices always rise'.

Interestingly, I spoke to afew Thais who were speculating today and I spoke a few weeks back to some Thais in my office who've bought to either flip before completion or - in some cases rent. And guess who they all said were their target customers? Yes..Farangs.

They don't seem to understand that their own government is drying up the market for these Thai middle-class speculators by cracking down on the farangs who want to live here without work permits. No farangs, considerably less market.

So what would happen if these buildings get to the completion point and then ask all those 'sold-out' customers for the 90% final payment? What happens if they haven't flipped and worse - don't have the money (the 6.7 million)? Does the bank reposess from the developer?

The above is not scientific..but it's worth thinking about.

Let me add my comments to the above. Ethnically, I am Chinese. I can be called a Westernized Oriental Gentleman (<deleted>). Sometimes known among the Chinese as a "banana" - yellow outside, white inside. I now live in North America.

If you "farangs" (of the white-skinned kind) think you know the Thai property market that well, think again. What's happening now in Thailand is history repeating itself in Hong Kong and Singapore and Taiwan (and Japan) 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

The comment that the Chinese are born to gamble is very true. Go to any casino, who do you see gambling? No, not the nickel-and-dime jackpot machines...peep into the VIP rooms. Got the picture?

I have personally "doubled-the-money" in real estate on 6 occasions in Hong Kong and Singapore during the boom times.

Will I do it in Thailand? Not really. (I have been to Thailand no fewer than 100 times, since 1964.)

Why not Thailand? It's the system. I love the people, but hate the system. Have you wondered why the real estate markets in Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines never quite took off? Got the picture?

For those of you who are caught, or will be caught, in the real estate "boom" in Thailand, the consolation is that "farangs" (which means foreigners) include non-Thai Chinese "gamblers" from Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan.

Good luck to you all.

[sfokevin]

Edited November 27, 2006 by sfokevin

[think_too_mut]

So what would happen if these buildings get to the completion point and then ask all those 'sold-out' customers for the 90% final payment? What happens if they haven't flipped and worse - don't have the money (the 6.7 million)? Does the bank reposess from the developer?

The above is not scientific..but it's worth thinking about.

That's probably why units in the building where I rent are selling now at same prices as 3 years ago when first advertised off the plan. (mid-Sukhumvit, on BTS).

Some go for less. One (that I know of) was whole 15% less than originally advertised and sat like that for 3 months. Then got further reduced. Could be, the buyer got it for even less than that.

Out of 400 units, only 17 farang owners. For (re)sale were over 200 units.

The building's (actually, the developer's) sale office was busy everyday 9am 8pm, 7 days a week, selling what was "sold out, only 1 left" 3 years ago....time's up to show what's really in the bank.