Looking for insights in Phuket estate developments Koh Kaew area (Sansiri, Land&Houses, etc)

[KarenBravo]

One of the best estates on the island (IMO) is the one on Kwang road. It's also one of the oldest.

All have large land area and security is good. I think they are all detached houses.

Just can't remember the name.

[bearpolar]

Theres Baan manikram on the oposite side

The other side does have super large plots and very rich occupants.

The land must be extremely expensive

0 security though, anyone can go in day and night, no guards, no gate, no walls.

[Bob12345]

Grand Boat Paza, you mean "what a wonderfull world" thing? Yeah, it all looks super nice but the quality is very shoddy. They use the same builder as for their previous project and we know the man, hes a corner cutter. AC bills always 2x higher than they should be because isolation is terrible, doors rotting, leaks and plumbing issues. Most people have had to change everything in their house at some point.

Good thing is, it looks good, the house are well spaced(in all their projects) and people keep those villages green. I almost bought the last one left in the back next to the juvenile governement thing, the one with the large yard but the little upstairs room and crappy materials didn't warrant the pricetag

Thats the one! The house you mention is still for sell, we checked it out and both my wife and I immediately felt this was not what we were looking for. The living room had a 6 meter high ceiling which was kind of useless, the upstairs room was extremely small, all other rooms in the house were strangely positioned, etc. The big window in the upstairs room, looking out into the living room, was also kind of useless as you would never spend daytime upstairs there and at night it would be dark with nothing to see. From that room looking out I also noticed that they used the same roofing for both the houses and the car park (similar material as what every Thai uses to roof their car park or garden shed). And even though I have limited experience with building material quality, it felt cheap when i tapped the window frames and it sounded hollow. To me it seemed like they build up the walls with the pre-fabricated 2-by-1-foot cinder blocks and glued in the cheapest window frames. Two houses down the street of where I am renting now they are building a small wall in similar style, they easily do 5-10 meters in a couple of hours.

The AC bill problem is also what I said when checking out another house on that estate. Single-layer glass in a room with glass on every corner. You need a pretty good AC to keep it cool there.

Did you check out the other available houses also? They have one more selling with furniture which has a large part of the green area at the front leaving zero privacy and one more which they are selling empty. That last one we actually liked as it has a large garden area in the middle of the house with good privacy. That was a great area to build a beautiful garden which then becomes the center of your house. It was, garden wise, exactly what I was dreaming of.

Recently they also finished the pool and gym in that estate. Same in a similar style as the rest of the estate (looks okay from a distance, when you come closer you see they saved costs and cut corners).

Thank you for your reply again by the way. Its great to be able to discuss some of these estates with people who have seen them independently and noticed other problems/flaws!

[bearpolar]

I saw the other houses but as soon as you step outside, you are basically on your neighbour's plot. I hate that. When i visited there was a small dog that barked for 45mins straight next to the house you mention.

Also not enough space for a fun pool, but the rest of the house was much nicer and very nicely furnished. Still not worth the money. Better get a cheaper house and put a few MB in it.

Same company also building villa's behind ikea.. 20-30mb with less than 1m seperation with your neighbor.. sad.

My electric bill in a twin house is 5500b per month and no AC in the day..

Good isolation they provided us with, doesnt help that the bedroom has a large glass sliding door.. 18000 btu and the room never feels very cold. In daytime impossible to go under 27C.

[KarenBravo]

Same company also building villa's behind ikea.. 20-30mb with less than 1m seperation with your neighbor.. sad.

That's illegal.

The law says that any permanent structure must be built a minimum distance of one metre from the land boundary. Therefore, there should be at least a two metre gap.

Course, this is Thailand and you can see everywhere that this rule isn't followed, but, I would have thought a large property developer would stick to the rules.

One metre, or, two metres, it's still far too close.

[Bob12345]

One metre, or, two metres, it's still far too close.

For the prices mentioned I agree, but of the properties I have seen so far I must admit I did not care too much how close the neighbors were as long as it is a side without large windows. I mean, you can have a 2 meter garden around your house but that will only result in people extending their house.

I do want green, but prefer to have it all concentrated on one open side so you actually have a decent garden instead of a minimal amount of green all around.

[KarenBravo]

I do want green, but prefer to have it all concentrated on one open side so you actually have a decent garden instead of a minimal amount of green all around.

That's exactly what I did when I had my house built.

[bearpolar]

i consider myself lucky, most houses in the front of my village all decided to go for gardens instead of ugly side-extentions.

Very green moobaan

[DrDave]

Same company also building villa's behind ikea.. 20-30mb with less than 1m seperation with your neighbor.. sad.

That's illegal.

The law says that any permanent structure must be built a minimum distance of one metre from the land boundary. Therefore, there should be at least a two metre gap.

Course, this is Thailand and you can see everywhere that this rule isn't followed, but, I would have thought a large property developer would stick to the rules.

One metre, or, two metres, it's still far too close.

I think the law is actually 1 meter if there are any windows on that wall, otherwise 50cm.

[LivinginKata]

Same company also building villa's behind ikea.. 20-30mb with less than 1m seperation with your neighbor.. sad.

That's illegal.

The law says that any permanent structure must be built a minimum distance of one metre from the land boundary. Therefore, there should be at least a two metre gap.

Course, this is Thailand and you can see everywhere that this rule isn't followed, but, I would have thought a large property developer would stick to the rules.

One metre, or, two metres, it's still far too close.

I think the law is actually 1 meter if there are any windows on that wall, otherwise 50cm.

Correct .... though this buiding regulation is rarely followed unless a neighbour complains ...

[bodunchar]

Delete me

[Bob12345]

And the search has ended; we signed for a house at 88 Land & Houses Koh Kaew.

They still have to build it so it will be about 10 months till we can move in, but it seems to be exactly what we were looking for!

Things that we liked especially about L&H what we did not see at the other properties:

- the quality of material used seemed much higher than at the other places. Just by tapping on the window frames, floors, and walls we noticed the difference in quality

- L&H will keep managing the property after everything has been build which guarantees quality

- they are now building the club house so once we move in we have access to the gym and pool which both will be brand new

- the oldest properties in the moobaan are about 3 years old and so far barely anybody has made visible (ugly) adjustments to their houses (totally unlike Sansiri projects that become ugly within a year)

- in case people do want to make changes to their house they need to consult with management first

- and very important, the house had exactly what we wanted in number of bedrooms, bathrooms, and extra rooms available for other purposes

[bearpolar]

Always good when you have to check in with management, usually it's not totally true but most upstanding thais will follow the rules so you end up only with a minimal ammount of complete dipsh"x"ts that don't ask management first and build something disgusting

[NamKangMan]

And the search has ended; we signed for a house at 88 Land & Houses Koh Kaew.

They still have to build it so it will be about 10 months till we can move in, but it seems to be exactly what we were looking for!

Things that we liked especially about L&H what we did not see at the other properties:

- the quality of material used seemed much higher than at the other places. Just by tapping on the window frames, floors, and walls we noticed the difference in quality

- L&H will keep managing the property after everything has been build which guarantees quality

- they are now building the club house so once we move in we have access to the gym and pool which both will be brand new

- the oldest properties in the moobaan are about 3 years old and so far barely anybody has made visible (ugly) adjustments to their houses (totally unlike Sansiri projects that become ugly within a year)

- in case people do want to make changes to their house they need to consult with management first

- and very important, the house had exactly what we wanted in number of bedrooms, bathrooms, and extra rooms available for other purposes

"And the search has ended; we signed for a house" - "They still have to build it so it will be about 10 months till we can move in"

Do I understand correctly, that you have bought "off the plan?"

Despite all the warnings about doing so, I wish you the best of luck.

[bearpolar]

L&H rarely is problematic off the plan

problem is the location is horrible

with a car it will take 40m to get to 7/11 and come back home

10m with a bike if you drive on the wrong side of the road

25m with a bike following rules with decency .

Right now and for a while Koh kew is a shithole, underpass construction and one or 2 overpass coming.In a few years it will be nice.

[Bob12345]

"And the search has ended; we signed for a house" - "They still have to build it so it will be about 10 months till we can move in"

Do I understand correctly, that you have bought "off the plan?"

Despite all the warnings about doing so, I wish you the best of luck.

That is correct, although we can discuss what "off the plan" exactly means.

I would not buy a house "off the plan" where you have to decide which one to take without having seen the actual area and houses they build.

Interpreting the floor plan and going by computer generated images of the neighborhood is extremely tricky.

In this case they have already successfully build 45 houses of similar quality (including the exact type we are buying) and we know exactly what the moobaan will look like (as we have been there several times).

So we could wait till the house has been build and then decide, but what do you expect to find out?

They missed building a wall that you spot and demand it being build? You find out the roof is crook and therefore won't buy it?

If there is serieus trouble with the construction of the house you will not notice it as a buyer that easily (I can know as I worked with my dad regularly who does these kinds of checks for a living). Letting them build it first is no guarantee that the quality will be good as you are unable to judge it (miss some airing holes in the crawling space and your woodwork will rot away over a period of 10 years, but you wont notice anything for the first 9 years).

Besides, there is a "guarantee" on the house where they fix any defects you find, and the workers will actually still be there because it will take maybe another 5-10 years before the moobaan is complete.

The guarantee is valid for about a year if I remember it correctly.

So why we bought "off the plan":

1. they only start building a new block when they have sold most of the houses on that block. They have build about 45 houses so far and only a couple of them are "unsold". This are mostly the "show houses" (completely decorated for the stunning amount of about 4.5 million baht) or houses located on less preferable locations (end of a soi close to the wall, close to the main road, etc). It is unlike some of the Sansiri projects we visited where they build everything at once and then half of the properties stand empty for months, if not years.

2. prices increase at least yearly, if you wait another year the house will be sold already or you pay 3-5% extra as land and material prices keep increasing

3. it sells out quickly; if you have to wait till the type of house you want is available on a good location it can take another 5 years

4. we are not afraid of the builders make a run for it, delivering lower quality, etc. The company has a good reputation, has other properties on Phuket that they maintain, and the actual construction crew stays around to work on further projects.

So while I agree with you that it is extremely risky to buy a house completely "off the plan", I do not count this purchase as being "off the plan".

Because, for as far as I see, all the risk involved with buying "off the plan" are covered.

[NamKangMan]

L&H rarely is problematic off the plan

problem is the location is horrible

with a car it will take 40m to get to 7/11 and come back home

10m with a bike if you drive on the wrong side of the road

25m with a bike following rules with decency .

Right now and for a while Koh kew is a shithole, underpass construction and one or 2 overpass coming.In a few years it will be nice.

"L&H rarely is problematic off the plan" - why take the risk on a possible stalled development?

I hope it works out, but who would be surprised if there is a story in the PG, 10 months from now, of them going broke and buyers out of pocket????

It's not as if it hasn't happened here before, several times.

[Bob12345]

L&H rarely is problematic off the plan

problem is the location is horrible

with a car it will take 40m to get to 7/11 and come back home

10m with a bike if you drive on the wrong side of the road

25m with a bike following rules with decency .

Right now and for a while Koh kew is a shithole, underpass construction and one or 2 overpass coming.In a few years it will be nice.

The underpass will indeed be crucial!

If it takes as long as the one at Tesco we will be in trouble as it means traffic jams whenever you want to go south. At certain times of the day its not that bad, but to me it seems a congestion can start at almost any time of the day.

But I am hoping the construction company will stick to its schedule, and looking at the progress they have been making so far I am hoping the underpass will be done before we move in (at some point I even thought they would be able to finish this new underpass before the one at the Tesco would be completely finished).

The next underpass will be at the airport I believe, but by that time we should be able to go south without problems.

In my view the location is not that bad as we can easily go off the island and Central will be reachable pretty quickly also.

[NamKangMan]

"And the search has ended; we signed for a house" - "They still have to build it so it will be about 10 months till we can move in"

Do I understand correctly, that you have bought "off the plan?"

Despite all the warnings about doing so, I wish you the best of luck.

That is correct, although we can discuss what "off the plan" exactly means.

I would not buy a house "off the plan" where you have to decide which one to take without having seen the actual area and houses they build.

Interpreting the floor plan and going by computer generated images of the neighborhood is extremely tricky.

In this case they have already successfully build 45 houses of similar quality (including the exact type we are buying) and we know exactly what the moobaan will look like (as we have been there several times).

So we could wait till the house has been build and then decide, but what do you expect to find out?

They missed building a wall that you spot and demand it being build? You find out the roof is crook and therefore won't buy it?

If there is serieus trouble with the construction of the house you will not notice it as a buyer that easily (I can know as I worked with my dad regularly who does these kinds of checks for a living). Letting them build it first is no guarantee that the quality will be good as you are unable to judge it (miss some airing holes in the crawling space and your woodwork will rot away over a period of 10 years, but you wont notice anything for the first 9 years).

Besides, there is a "guarantee" on the house where they fix any defects you find, and the workers will actually still be there because it will take maybe another 5-10 years before the moobaan is complete.

The guarantee is valid for about a year if I remember it correctly.

So why we bought "off the plan":

1. they only start building a new block when they have sold most of the houses on that block. They have build about 45 houses so far and only a couple of them are "unsold". This are mostly the "show houses" (completely decorated for the stunning amount of about 4.5 million baht) or houses located on less preferable locations (end of a soi close to the wall, close to the main road, etc). It is unlike some of the Sansiri projects we visited where they build everything at once and then half of the properties stand empty for months, if not years.

2. prices increase at least yearly, if you wait another year the house will be sold already or you pay 3-5% extra as land and material prices keep increasing

3. it sells out quickly; if you have to wait till the type of house you want is available on a good location it can take another 5 years

4. we are not afraid of the builders make a run for it, delivering lower quality, etc. The company has a good reputation, has other properties on Phuket that they maintain, and the actual construction crew stays around to work on further projects.

So while I agree with you that it is extremely risky to buy a house completely "off the plan", I do not count this purchase as being "off the plan".

Because, for as far as I see, all the risk involved with buying "off the plan" are covered.

"So while I agree with you that it is extremely risky to buy a house completely "off the plan", I do not count this purchase as being "off the plan" - HUH????

Let me make it simple for you.

You give the developer a lot of money, they keep the money and build nothing, or start building, just to get the next bigger staged payment, then shut down operations, move the money where it can not be found, and you have been robbed.

Once again, it's not like it hasn't happened before, several times.

It has zero to do build quality, and all to do with whether anything inhabitable gets built at all.

[Bob12345]

"L&H rarely is problematic off the plan" - why take the risk on a possible stalled development?

I hope it works out, but who would be surprised if there is a story in the PG, 10 months from now, of them going broke and buyers out of pocket????

It's not as if it hasn't happened here before, several times.

Just to give some context:

- they are actually starting with the house already. We have visited the plot and the machine to get the poles in the ground was already standing there. The houses of the two neighbors are well underway already (as they do them one by one, starting on the corner working deeper into the soi). Our house is the next in line. It is not like they plan on starting to build a year from now which opens the doors to many more delays.

- sure they can go bankrupt, but how likely is that for L&H to happen which has USD 2 billion of assets and USD 200 million in revenue? The company has been around for 33 years. None of this gives 100% guarantees, but the companies you see going bust are mostly the small developers who make a huge bet on a 200-floor condo tower in Pattaya. This whole project is a minor blimp on the radar of a company this size.

- we actually do not pay for the house until it is done. As soon as the house has been build the bank will send over an appraiser who will take pictures and sign off on the value so we can get our mortgage, and then we become the owner. Until that time we pay a token amount per month. If the project is delayed or the company goes bankrupt right before we get our house we will be less than 2 months of net salary out of pocket.

[Bob12345]

You give the developer a lot of money, they keep the money and build nothing, or start building, just to get the next bigger staged payment, then shut down operations, move the money where it can not be found, and you have been robbed.

Once again, it's not like it hasn't happened before, several times.

It has zero to do build quality, and all to do with whether anything inhabitable gets built at all.

There are no staged payments, we pay when the house is done and the bank agrees it is worth their mortgage.

Has it happened before with a 2 billion USD exchange listed company?

Besides, the company has a net income (profit) of about USD 240 million per year, do you really think they will "blow up" their company to steal a few hundred thousand baht from me and all the other home owners who are currently waiting for their house?

Wouldn't it be much more profitable to simply keep doing what they are doing and bringing in 240 million dollar per year without breaking any laws?

[NamKangMan]

You give the developer a lot of money, they keep the money and build nothing, or start building, just to get the next bigger staged payment, then shut down operations, move the money where it can not be found, and you have been robbed.

Once again, it's not like it hasn't happened before, several times.

It has zero to do build quality, and all to do with whether anything inhabitable gets built at all.

There are no staged payments, we pay when the house is done and the bank agrees it is worth their mortgage.

Has it happened before with a 2 billion USD exchange listed company?

Besides, the company has a net income (profit) of about USD 240 million per year, do you really think they will "blow up" their company to steal a few hundred thousand baht from me and all the other home owners who are currently waiting for their house?

Wouldn't it be much more profitable to simply keep doing what they are doing and bringing in 240 million dollar per year without breaking any laws?

What's the developer using as surety against your signature?

You say there are no staged payments but they could get "a few hundred thousand baht" from you. How?

"Has it happened before with a 2 billion USD exchange listed company?" - not sure, but how many military coups have we had here in recent years? If a Government can not survive, maybe a large company can't either. Not to mention, so many dodgy land titles here. Anything is possible here.

"Wouldn't it be much more profitable to simply keep doing what they are doing and bringing in 240 million dollar per year without breaking any laws?" - depends on the solvency of the company. Maybe it's not far from collapse, and those at the top are looking to turn a quick baht before going into receivership. Who knows? This is Thailand.

[bearpolar]

is 88 koh kew the same as 88 chalong or is it the inzion or something with a Z?

88 chalong is really nice, you don't get that kind of quality for 4-5mb with other developers.

[Bob12345]

What's the developer using as surety against your signature?

You say there are no staged payments but they could get "a few hundred thousand baht" from you. How?

"Has it happened before with a 2 billion USD exchange listed company?" - not sure, but how many military coups have we had here in recent years? If a Government can not survive, maybe a large company can't either. Not to mention, so many dodgy land titles here. Anything is possible here.

"Wouldn't it be much more profitable to simply keep doing what they are doing and bringing in 240 million dollar per year without breaking any laws?" - depends on the solvency of the company. Maybe it's not far from collapse, and those at the top are looking to turn a quick baht before going into receivership. Who knows? This is Thailand.

I assume they will sue in case we don't pay up at the end, besides that they have barely any surety.

Not that they might make a huge loss, as they build the house in its standard form and therefore it is easy to sell to anybody else.

The only thing they require is that we make a small payment monthly. Over a period of 10 months this will be less than 10% of the value of the house.

The other arguments you make seem like reaching for a last straw; even if the house has already been build it can still have dodgy land titles, or the government can collapse and take the property rights away.

[Bob12345]

is 88 koh kew the same as 88 chalong or is it the inzion or something with a Z?

88 chalong is really nice, you don't get that kind of quality for 4-5mb with other developers.

88 Koh Kaew is not the same as 88 Chalong, its the same company (developer/management) but at a different location with different types of houses.

(p.s. 88 Chalong starts at 9M baht)

The Inizio is also a L&H project and is located directly next to 88 Kow Kaew.

We have been there also but did not like the moobaan (houses close to each other, little to no green, risk of people extending their house) nor the houses (too small, cheaper materials compared to 88, but also much cheaper of course).

[bearpolar]

found their facebook, if those houses are really 4.x thats really good for phuket

[NamKangMan]

What's the developer using as surety against your signature?

You say there are no staged payments but they could get "a few hundred thousand baht" from you. How?

"Has it happened before with a 2 billion USD exchange listed company?" - not sure, but how many military coups have we had here in recent years? If a Government can not survive, maybe a large company can't either. Not to mention, so many dodgy land titles here. Anything is possible here.

"Wouldn't it be much more profitable to simply keep doing what they are doing and bringing in 240 million dollar per year without breaking any laws?" - depends on the solvency of the company. Maybe it's not far from collapse, and those at the top are looking to turn a quick baht before going into receivership. Who knows? This is Thailand.

I assume they will sue in case we don't pay up at the end, besides that they have barely any surety.

Not that they might make a huge loss, as they build the house in its standard form and therefore it is easy to sell to anybody else.

The only thing they require is that we make a small payment monthly. Over a period of 10 months this will be less than 10% of the value of the house.

The other arguments you make seem like reaching for a last straw; even if the house has already been build it can still have dodgy land titles, or the government can collapse and take the property rights away.

As many members know, I am an advocate of renting here. So it's nothing personal.

In relation to my "military coup" comment, it was just to show that ANYTHING is possible here. Even the Government of the day can change, at the drop of a hat.

On the point of "renting" which you are not, may I ask by what method / structure you are going to retain some sort of ownership of this property, which, apart from buying off the plan, also poses another risk.

[Bob12345]

As many members know, I am an advocate of renting here. So it's nothing personal.

In relation to my "military coup" comment, it was just to show that ANYTHING is possible here. Even the Government of the day can change, at the drop of a hat.

On the point of "renting" which you are not, may I ask by what method / structure you are going to retain some sort of ownership of this property, which, apart from buying off the plan, also poses another risk.

I am not taking it personal, no worries.

Actually I like the line of questioning as you do make valid points although I do not think it applies to this specific case so much (unlike people buying condo's off plan in Pattaya from a small developer who claims to start the construction "anytime soon").

I was a big supporter of renting as it is relatively cheap and gives you the option to pack and leave whenever the neighbors start burning leaves in the garden on a daily basis.

In this specific moobaan I am not afraid that will happen as there is quite some space between houses and due to the price level it will have a different type of people buying there.

We are currently renting but the house is getting too small plus we barely have a garden (while having a dog), so we wanted to move to something bigger.

If you compare rents for bigger houses with mortgage payments at interest rates below 5% the difference becomes small.

Plus it gives my wife and me a reason to save up extra to pay the mortgage off quicker, something that was hard to do before with a large monthly income but no real reason to not spend it all.

Regarding retaining ownership; my wife is Thai so she can possess the property without problems.

She also has a good paying job to cover the mortgage costs and her job is highly unlikely to disappear no matter the political circumstances (health care industry).

[bearpolar]

4.x million im guessing minimum payement is somewhere close to 30k probably 25?

for 25k baht unless you want to live in a very remote place, you will most likely get a really run down house with the ugliest, most uncomfortable furniture for anything of a decent size with a garden or pool.

The phuket rental market for sub 40k/m is really bad. There's a few good deals for 30k around pakok and thalang and if you're lucky in nai harn/chalong.

Personally i dont fancy paying 30k a month for a house i cant resell, with a bed made of concrete and toilet tiles in the kitchen with a 60cm fridge.

Renting only makes sense for single people that want a small house or a condo in phuket. Phuket isnt pattaya/bkk/chiang mai where 30k gets you an amazing euro-standard house with a pool.

Also, its a horrible feeling to pay 30k baht per month and not having a private pool. You're in a tropical island, every house should have a pool for that price, pattaya you get pools for 15k. Makes more sense to invest in your own house that one day you can probably resell for a price that you will almost breakeven or profit a little bit instead of wasting money on a sub-par house and never getting a cent of it back.

[NamKangMan]

As many members know, I am an advocate of renting here. So it's nothing personal.

In relation to my "military coup" comment, it was just to show that ANYTHING is possible here. Even the Government of the day can change, at the drop of a hat.

On the point of "renting" which you are not, may I ask by what method / structure you are going to retain some sort of ownership of this property, which, apart from buying off the plan, also poses another risk.

I am not taking it personal, no worries.

Actually I like the line of questioning as you do make valid points although I do not think it applies to this specific case so much (unlike people buying condo's off plan in Pattaya from a small developer who claims to start the construction "anytime soon").

I was a big supporter of renting as it is relatively cheap and gives you the option to pack and leave whenever the neighbors start burning leaves in the garden on a daily basis.

In this specific moobaan I am not afraid that will happen as there is quite some space between houses and due to the price level it will have a different type of people buying there.

We are currently renting but the house is getting too small plus we barely have a garden (while having a dog), so we wanted to move to something bigger.

If you compare rents for bigger houses with mortgage payments at interest rates below 5% the difference becomes small.

Plus it gives my wife and me a reason to save up extra to pay the mortgage off quicker, something that was hard to do before with a large monthly income but no real reason to not spend it all.

Regarding retaining ownership; my wife is Thai so she can possess the property without problems.

She also has a good paying job to cover the mortgage costs and her job is highly unlikely to disappear no matter the political circumstances (health care industry).

"Regarding retaining ownership; my wife is Thai so she can possess the property without problems." - so, you are basically paying your wife rent. Right?