Metropolitan police chief tells foreigners to carry passports or copies at all times

[sandrew33]

Nonsense. I have been to more than 50+ countries and some of them demands that you carries your original passport. Some of these countries are so called first world developed countries.

Name names. Countries where you've left the hotel and been subjected to a demand for your passport?

Edited March 19, 2016 by sandrew33

[farcanell]

In some countries, you may get away if you can offer the officer or police some cash in exchange for not having your passport with you. And these are not communist countries.

Yes and there are countries, I am not mention any names now, where police will demand money even if everything is in order.

Like an African country starting and ending with the letter "a". .?

[TommyUK1960]

I only carry Thai driving licence. Never had a problem

[brewsterbudgen]

Anyone living here should know they have to carry a copy of their passport. I hope the message is communicated to tourists via their hotels or Embassies.

Anyone living here with decent Thai legal advice would understand that this is BS.

You of all people should know better.

There is no legal requirement to carry your passport or a copy. It has to be accessible within a reasonable period of time I.e you can leave it at home.

This has always been the case and was confirmed by a different chief of police only last year.

But you should have access to decent Thai legal advice Brewster and you should be able to confirm this.

I agree that carrying a copy on ones phone is prudent to avoid drama but if you get the wrong cop they'll just demand the original anyway. The law does not require you to have original or copy on you. Period.

I never mentioned the law, just that longtime expats like myself, unlike tourists, should know that carrying a copy of your passport is prudent. I have no desire to have any hassle if stopped, and having to retrieve my passport, or find someone to retrieve it, would be hassle.

I would imagine that this crackdown is linked to the new overstay penalties which come into effect tomorrow. I make sure my passport copy has not only my ID page, but also my Extension of stay stamp.

Fair enough. You did however say "they have to". They don't.

I've lived here 9 years, never carried a copy of my passport (or the original) either in Thailand or in any of the other 50+ countries I've been in.

It may also depend on where you live and go out. I live and work in central Bangkok and when I'm out at night it's often in the Cowboy/Asok/Phrom Phong area, where checks on ID/passports are commonplace, and have been for years.

[sandrew33]

Wheres Somchai , im sure he would end this debacle of a debate and put all us straight as to the rules.

55555

I think a lot of people don't know how to read law and don't know how to read law in terms of its application.

The requirement is that if required you must be able to prove your identification and your legal right to be in Thailand. The way you do that is not stated.

The one document foreigners own that achieves both is their original passport.

But whether that must be provided immediately or within some reasonable time frame is open to interpretation. Whether an authorised person asking for the ID will accept other documents depends entirely on them - because the legal requirement is not the production of the passport but the proof of ID and of your current legal right to be in the Kingdom.

Typically in trying to determine the actual standard, courts would rule and remove any ambiguity. That's the role of courts and why law is always read by reference to precedent.

As such referring to "the letter of the law" is typically a complete misunderstanding of how law works

That said, Thai court rulings in this area (that clarify the uncertain areas) are hard to locate. So the law remains no for prequirement passport but a requirement to meet the standard of proof of who you are and whether you are legally here.

And depending on the day everything from a library card to an original passport may suffice if the officer asking is happy

[djjamie]

Yes, have to respect the rules of any country that you visit or live in. I carry a photo of my passport on my phone to ensure I abide by the law.

At the end of the day if this catches only one illegal foreigner or only saves one life by arresting a potential threat then this initiative has worked.

I am sure the very same people that suggest this is too controlling of the govt will be the same ones that complain about the govt if someone that this initiative is targeting commits a violent crime.

Can't win if you do and can't win if you don't.

oh right they do that in Australia do they? stop anyone for no reason and ask to see their passport? I should not be surprised from you I suppose but I think you would be in bliss in North Korea

Yes they do. If you are suspected of anything in Australia you have to be able to identify yourself. If you cannot you are in trouble. In Brisbane I have been pulled up for simply carrying a beer through the Valley and the police have asked me for ID. If I did not have a drivers license or any ID on my I would be taken away until I am identified.

Why would I be in bliss in North Korea? It is nothing like Thailand. North Korea is a depressing repressive country. In Thailand I have the freedom to do what I want when I want. I can even bring a camera with a long lens into Thailand. Can't do that in North Korea.

Like I said, some complain if the govt act and some complain if they don't. You reinforce my argument.

Have a lovely evening my friend and thanks for allowing me to reply to your comments.

[sandrew33]

Anyone living here should know they have to carry a copy of their passport. I hope the message is communicated to tourists via their hotels or Embassies.

Anyone living here with decent Thai legal advice would understand that this is BS.

You of all people should know better.

There is no legal requirement to carry your passport or a copy. It has to be accessible within a reasonable period of time I.e you can leave it at home.

This has always been the case and was confirmed by a different chief of police only last year.

But you should have access to decent Thai legal advice Brewster and you should be able to confirm this.

I agree that carrying a copy on ones phone is prudent to avoid drama but if you get the wrong cop they'll just demand the original anyway. The law does not require you to have original or copy on you. Period.

I never mentioned the law, just that longtime expats like myself, unlike tourists, should know that carrying a copy of your passport is prudent. I have no desire to have any hassle if stopped, and having to retrieve my passport, or find someone to retrieve it, would be hassle.

I would imagine that this crackdown is linked to the new overstay penalties which come into effect tomorrow. I make sure my passport copy has not only my ID page, but also my Extension of stay stamp.

Fair enough. You did however say "they have to". They don't.

I've lived here 9 years, never carried a copy of my passport (or the original) either in Thailand or in any of the other 50+ countries I've been in.

It may also depend on where you live and go out. I live and work in central Bangkok and when I'm out at night it's often in the Cowboy/Asok/Phrom Phong area, where checks on ID/passports are commonplace, and have been for years.

I live in Suk Soi 23 and have lived between 11 and 31 my entire time here.

I am at the places you mention a touch more than I should be. I've been stopped twice in my time by police, both times for random searches of my pockets apparently

I've never, anywhere, been asked for a passport or ID.

[peteregion]

I think you have not been out of your house before. I traveled frequently and had been to countries in most of the continents of the world. As an alien (as some countries called us), you have to have your original passport with you if the police or immigration officer checks you. Even a copy is not recognize. Otherwise you would be escorted back to the station (until someone brings your passport to the station) or escorted back to the hotel.

In some countries, you may get away if you can offer the officer or police some cash in exchange for not having your passport with you. And these are not communist countries.

Over 50 countries. Never taken my passport out with me anywhere.

You wanna list the countries where you've been required to produce it in the streets?

Perhaps also a photo - you must be the dodgiest looking bloke on earth

I give you 2 nearby examples. Whether you carry it with you is your choice and as I stated earlier, the inconvenience is yours. At certain times, you can pay your way through if you are stopped.

Indonesia law requires all foreigners, other than those with short stay permits (KITAS), or residency permits (KITAP), to carry their passports at all times. KITAS and KITAP holders must carry that, or an SKLD, or a KTP (WNA) instead.

Malaysia requires that all foreigners carry their passport at all times.

[bazza40]

.

In some countries, you may get away if you can offer the officer or police some cash in exchange for not having your passport with you. And these are not communist countries.

Having your 'papers' with you is a feature of totalitarian governments the world over in modern history.

The flavour of the regime doesn't matter.

The Gestapo or the Stazi, or the KGB bring fear to their citizens with the demand 'papers please'.

It's a slippery slope that many countries have slid down.

PS

At the latest raid at Zoe Yellow in CM, it was original passports only, Thai DL and passport copies not accepted.

Taken to the police station and held until your original passport was presented.

How does a Thai driver's licence fare with the BiB?

[mancub]

The only details they are capable of checking are your photo and admitted until date. Last time my passport was inspected by one of these clowns, the officer informed me that I was from The Netherlands.....from where neither I nor my passport originate.

[djjamie]

Yes, have to respect the rules of any country that you visit or live in. I carry a photo of my passport on my phone to ensure I abide by the law.

At the end of the day if this catches only one illegal foreigner or only saves one life by arresting a potential threat then this initiative has worked.

I am sure the very same people that suggest this is too controlling of the govt will be the same ones that complain about the govt if someone that this initiative is targeting commits a violent crime.

Can't win if you do and can't win if you don't.

oh right they do that in Australia do they? stop anyone for no reason and ask to see their passport? I should not be surprised from you I suppose but I think you would be in bliss in North Korea

Double post. Sorry Mods.

Edited March 19, 2016 by djjamie

[topt]

Nonsense. I have been to more than 50+ countries and some of them demands that you carries your original passport. Some of these countries are so called first world developed countries.

Name names. Countries where you've left the hotel and been subjected to a demand for your passport?

China.

After being stopped outside my apt block in the street at about 7pm and told either pay fine of about 50RMB from memory (say 250 baht) or go in the wagon to the police station. I had to go up and get my passport and bring it back as well.

An Australian I knew who worked in their consular offices also started to carry after being warned several times.

So I physically carried (normally in my trouser pocket my passport for the best part of 4 years until I left. PITA even if I just nipped out to the local shops. Nothing legible left on the front cover and corners all twisted.

PS - yes got stopped subsequently.

Edit - do not carry here

Edited March 19, 2016 by topt

[brewsterbudgen]

Anyone living here should know they have to carry a copy of their passport. I hope the message is communicated to tourists via their hotels or Embassies.

Anyone living here with decent Thai legal advice would understand that this is BS.

You of all people should know better.

There is no legal requirement to carry your passport or a copy. It has to be accessible within a reasonable period of time I.e you can leave it at home.

This has always been the case and was confirmed by a different chief of police only last year.

But you should have access to decent Thai legal advice Brewster and you should be able to confirm this.

I agree that carrying a copy on ones phone is prudent to avoid drama but if you get the wrong cop they'll just demand the original anyway. The law does not require you to have original or copy on you. Period.

I never mentioned the law, just that longtime expats like myself, unlike tourists, should know that carrying a copy of your passport is prudent. I have no desire to have any hassle if stopped, and having to retrieve my passport, or find someone to retrieve it, would be hassle.

I would imagine that this crackdown is linked to the new overstay penalties which come into effect tomorrow. I make sure my passport copy has not only my ID page, but also my Extension of stay stamp.

Fair enough. You did however say "they have to". They don't.

I've lived here 9 years, never carried a copy of my passport (or the original) either in Thailand or in any of the other 50+ countries I've been in.

It may also depend on where you live and go out. I live and work in central Bangkok and when I'm out at night it's often in the Cowboy/Asok/Phrom Phong area, where checks on ID/passports are commonplace, and have been for years.

I live in Suk Soi 23 and have lived between 11 and 31 my entire time here.

I am at the places you mention a touch more than I should be. I've been stopped twice in my time by police, both times for random searches of my pockets apparently

I've never, anywhere, been asked for a passport or ID.

Lucky you! I'm not really disagreeing with you, other than to say such stops and checks do happen, and carrying a copy of your ID expedites matters greatly, if it does happen.

[bazza40]

Beatup. There's nothing unreasonable about being asked to carry a photocopy of the passport and visa.

The last thing I want to carry around is my passport. Nearly 10,000 baht and 6-8 weeks to renew if lost. No way. Arrest me. I'd rather spend a night in the cells than have to take my passport everywhere. So never will, never shall, cuff me.

Completely agree, a passport is a valuable document. A PHOTOCOPY is no big deal. Have you read something into my initial post I am not aware of?

Yes, I can't read. 555

Senior moments come to us all.

[peteregion]

Nonsense. I have been to more than 50+ countries and some of them demands that you carries your original passport. Some of these countries are so called first world developed countries.

Name names. Countries where you've left the hotel and been subjected to a demand for your passport?

I give you two. If you are in some establishment having a beer during the Ramadan months in Indonesia or Malaysia, you may be in some inconveniences if you do not have your passport with you.

http://indonesiaexpat.biz/featured/the-immigration-inquisition/

[sandrew33]

I think you have not been out of your house before. I traveled frequently and had been to countries in most of the continents of the world. As an alien (as some countries called us), you have to have your original passport with you if the police or immigration officer checks you. Even a copy is not recognize. Otherwise you would be escorted back to the station (until someone brings your passport to the station) or escorted back to the hotel.

In some countries, you may get away if you can offer the officer or police some cash in exchange for not having your passport with you. And these are not communist countries.

Over 50 countries. Never taken my passport out with me anywhere.

You wanna list the countries where you've been required to produce it in the streets?

Perhaps also a photo - you must be the dodgiest looking bloke on earth

I give you 2 nearby examples. Whether you carry it with you is your choice and as I stated earlier, the inconvenience is yours. At certain times, you can pay your way through if you are stopped.

Indonesia law requires all foreigners, other than those with short stay permits (KITAS), or residency permits (KITAP), to carry their passports at all times. KITAS and KITAP holders must carry that, or an SKLD, or a KTP (WNA) instead.

Malaysia requires that all foreigners carry their passport at all times.

Cmon man try harder.

I lived in KL for 2 years and am in Indonesia 6-12 times a year for over a decade.

I do recall once in Malaysia being in a nightclub in Desa Sri Hartamas which was raided by police and shut down and everyone had to present ID's. The policeman asked me for mine and I said I was an expat and only had my overseas DL on me. He said well you should have passport but it's ok. I talked to him for a bit and he said that the requirement is to have your passport but that if they had reason to detain you that you wouldn't be charged with an offence if the passport was provided within a reasonable period of time.

Again, this is the same issue in Thailand. Except Thailand doesn't even have a specific legal requirement for a passport (see my prior post responding to Big Mango)

Further, the law requiring proof of ID is one thing, the way police use ID laws is another.

The Thai police are acting like police state goons in this matter. None of the countries you've named act in that manner AND they have specific laws.

FWIW in both the countries you mention the Australian and British governments advise against carrying original passports. Are they advising their citizens to break the law? Or are people reading the laws incorrectly?

I'm not sure whether you are just being devils advocate or whether you are one of those suck up types who actually goes out of his way to be a stickler for the absolutely most conservative approach to every possible law. But either way, your aren't right...

[sandrew33]

Nonsense. I have been to more than 50+ countries and some of them demands that you carries your original passport. Some of these countries are so called first world developed countries.

Name names. Countries where you've left the hotel and been subjected to a demand for your passport?

I give you two. If you are in some establishment having a beer during the Ramadan months in Indonesia or Malaysia, you may be in some inconveniences if you do not have your passport with you.

http://indonesiaexpat.biz/featured/the-immigration-inquisition/

As a general position that's absolute and utter <deleted>. Based on extensive personal experience in both places, pissed as a newt, including during Ramadan. Regularly.

The raid outlined in May last year was an aberration and has not been repeated and was clearly overreach by some dickheads in immigration/police. It was rightly widely criticised, just as people are doing in this thread of the Thai police. Whom you seen to be defending.

By the way, aren't you the one questioning whether people ever get out of their house?

How about your personal experiences of being pushed around by police for absence of your original passport? You mentioned developed Western countries

Edited March 19, 2016 by sandrew33

[peteregion]

I think you have not been out of your house before. I traveled frequently and had been to countries in most of the continents of the world. As an alien (as some countries called us), you have to have your original passport with you if the police or immigration officer checks you. Even a copy is not recognize. Otherwise you would be escorted back to the station (until someone brings your passport to the station) or escorted back to the hotel.

In some countries, you may get away if you can offer the officer or police some cash in exchange for not having your passport with you. And these are not communist countries.

Over 50 countries. Never taken my passport out with me anywhere.

You wanna list the countries where you've been required to produce it in the streets?

Perhaps also a photo - you must be the dodgiest looking bloke on earth

I give you 2 nearby examples. Whether you carry it with you is your choice and as I stated earlier, the inconvenience is yours. At certain times, you can pay your way through if you are stopped.

Indonesia law requires all foreigners, other than those with short stay permits (KITAS), or residency permits (KITAP), to carry their passports at all times. KITAS and KITAP holders must carry that, or an SKLD, or a KTP (WNA) instead.

Malaysia requires that all foreigners carry their passport at all times.

Cmon man try harder.

I lived in KL for 2 years and am in Indonesia 6-12 times a year for over a decade.

I do recall once in Malaysia being in a nightclub in Desa Sri Hartamas which was raided by police and shut down and everyone had to present ID's. The policeman asked me for mine and I said I was an expat and only had my overseas DL on me. He said well you should have passport but it's ok. I talked to him for a bit and he said that the requirement is to have your passport but that if they had reason to detain you that you wouldn't be charged with an offence if the passport was provided within a reasonable period of time.

Again, this is the same issue in Thailand. Except Thailand doesn't even have a specific legal requirement for a passport (see my prior post responding to Big Mango)

Further, the law requiring proof of ID is one thing, the way police use ID laws is another.

The Thai police are acting like police state goons in this matter. None of the countries you've named act in that manner AND they have specific laws.

FWIW in both the countries you mention the Australian and British governments advise against carrying original passports. Are they advising their citizens to break the law? Or are people reading the laws incorrectly?

I'm not sure whether you are just being devils advocate or whether you are one of those suck up types who actually goes out of his way to be a stickler for the absolutely most conservative approach to every possible law. But either way, your aren't right...

Good on you. Maybe you can direct us to the advisory on not carrying original passport. At least I am not one of those BS type.

[JAG]

“The reason I decided to do the mission tonight is because many entertainment venues which attract foreign tourists are located in these areas. And since many foreigners visit these areas I’m afraid some of them might have ill-intentions to be involved in dark business, or even crimes, especially trans-national crime.

“This operation also helps to boost confidence between tourists and the security forces”, he added.

The biggest pile of horsesh!t I've ever heard.

People who frequent clubs = criminals is what he is saying. Jesus wept

Actually makes a lot of sense. It is well known that a huge number of entertainment venues in Bangkok are owned by foreign criminals so it's not unlikely that that kind of element of society is likely to be found there.

Although perhaps unlikely to be weaving their way down the Sukhumvit pavements (where incidentally a wide range of illegal items are openly sold - but we will pass on that) en route from Nana to Soi Cowboy.The Mr Bigs of international crime will have more salubrious means of transport than the Mk1 flip flop.

Thais have to carry a valid ID with them. Foreign visitors should have something too, copies of passport, driving licence, their own national ID card, whatever. But this should be made plain to everyone on entry to the country. here are lots of good arguments for carrying some form of ID, but frankly catching International Criminals is not one of them.

This was a shakedown to see who they could catch and "fine" and a photo-op for some middle ranking cops.

It says something about how untouchable they think they are that they combined the two!

Incidentally, what is Prince Harry doing on the p#ss in downtown Bangkok?

Edited March 19, 2016 by JAG

[glenmohr]

I think you have not been out of your house before. I traveled frequently and had been to countries in most of the continents of the world. As an alien (as some countries called us), you have to have your original passport with you if the police or immigration officer checks you. Even a copy is not recognize. Otherwise you would be escorted back to the station (until someone brings your passport to the station) or escorted back to the hotel.

In some countries, you may get away if you can offer the officer or police some cash in exchange for not having your passport with you. And these are not communist countries.

Over 50 countries. Never taken my passport out with me anywhere.

You wanna list the countries where you've been required to produce it in the streets?

Perhaps also a photo - you must be the dodgiest looking bloke on earth

I give you 2 nearby examples. Whether you carry it with you is your choice and as I stated earlier, the inconvenience is yours. At certain times, you can pay your way through if you are stopped.

Indonesia law requires all foreigners, other than those with short stay permits (KITAS), or residency permits (KITAP), to carry their passports at all times. KITAS and KITAP holders must carry that, or an SKLD, or a KTP (WNA) instead.

Malaysia requires that all foreigners carry their passport at all times.

Cmon man try harder.

I lived in KL for 2 years and am in Indonesia 6-12 times a year for over a decade.

I do recall once in Malaysia being in a nightclub in Desa Sri Hartamas which was raided by police and shut down and everyone had to present ID's. The policeman asked me for mine and I said I was an expat and only had my overseas DL on me. He said well you should have passport but it's ok. I talked to him for a bit and he said that the requirement is to have your passport but that if they had reason to detain you that you wouldn't be charged with an offence if the passport was provided within a reasonable period of time.

Again, this is the same issue in Thailand. Except Thailand doesn't even have a specific legal requirement for a passport (see my prior post responding to Big Mango)

Further, the law requiring proof of ID is one thing, the way police use ID laws is another.

The Thai police are acting like police state goons in this matter. None of the countries you've named act in that manner AND they have specific laws.

FWIW in both the countries you mention the Australian and British governments advise against carrying original passports. Are they advising their citizens to break the law? Or are people reading the laws incorrectly?

I'm not sure whether you are just being devils advocate or whether you are one of those suck up types who actually goes out of his way to be a stickler for the absolutely most conservative approach to every possible law. But either way, your aren't right...

Of the 30 odd countries I have been to I must confirm they all have laws. But only Thailand targets foreigners with regard to the passport issue

[ukrules]

Nonsense. I have been to more than 50+ countries and some of them demands that you carries your original passport. Some of these countries are so called first world developed countries.

Name names. Countries where you've left the hotel and been subjected to a demand for your passport?

I was once asked to show my passport by a uniformed soldier in Moscow. I didn't have it with me at the time as the 'Intourist' hotel 'seized' the passport on check in and only returned it after the bill had been paid when checking out.

[glenmohr]

I'm a little surprised to see some posters claim that Thailand has laws.

Would have thought if that was the case there would be a law saying that it is against the law to overthrow a popularly elected govt.

There would be another law to say that it is against the law to run a red light.

There would be another saying it is illegal to drive on the wrong side of the road at a blind corner.

You would think if Thailand had laws that it would be illegal to kill a policeman using a speeding Ferrari as the murder weapon and so on and so on. In fact murder is not illegal in Thailand provided that the murderer comes from a rich family. Frankly I think it is time folk stopped trying to claim Thailand has laws in the conventional sense

[IamNoone88]

"He added that following the raids and passport checks, everything went smoothly and no one was found to be breaking the rules."

That means 100% compliance with all foreigners - what a load of BS........... means went smoothy in other ways.........

[attrayant]

Seeing as most foreigners can not get Thai ID cards it is reasonable that one should carry some other form of ID as well as some proof that they are not over stayers.

Apparently there is something called a non-Thai ID card, which looks a lot like a Thai ID card. Both of the Burmese laborers working at my brother inlaw's shop have one. Not sure if this would suffice in the event of a police stop, because I really am not clear on what specific piece of data the police are looking for when the peek into your passport. What exactly is it, that's in your passport, that certifies you're not a criminal?

Edited March 19, 2016 by attrayant

[chrisinth]

OMG!! Carry passport.. Don't carry passport. Carry passport. Don't carry passport. Make up your mind. Leave tourist alone and keep Thailand safe.

I've yet to see any government, police or armed force department official telling foreigners not to carry their passports, perhaps i missed that.

[Psychic]

Now nefarious transnational criminals will know where to go look for foreign tourists when they need to steal a passport.

Even easier to doctor a photocopy.

[Wilsonandson]

Been stopped by the police twice in 13 years. Once for not wearing a helmet, paid a fine at the police station and had 24 hours to show my passport. Second time about 20 minutes after paying the fine I continued on my journey and got stopped by a second policeman for not wearing a helmet. I showed him my receipt of the fine I'd just paid and he smiled and waved me on. I never carry my passport around. You have 24 hours period in which to show your passport to the police station. On the spot fines for not having a passport are BS.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Wilsonandson

[Remi080]

All foreign tourists... so foreigners who work and live here dont need to carry there passport or a photo copy.

[gemguy]

Yep....one more pain in the ass hoop that foreigners have to jump through when the police put on the law enforcement circus show.....and then back to the usual business of collecting their money and lording over their lucrative money making territory.

Cheers

[louse1953]

Or a photocopy. You need to change that headline.

So everybody was carrying pp or copy,bit hard to believe.Lucky i'm not in town.