EU Shengen denied for Thai, can apply with other EU embassy? Do they communicate?

[buythisdashcam]

Hello,

Wen a visa is denied for a EU country, can the person apply with another EU country embassy in Bangkok?

Do they communicate and might take the same stupid decision for a Thai who had no reason to be refused ?

Thank you.

[pgrahmm]

When we got one for France we used a Visa service - they asked for all kinds of stuff....Above and beyond what I thought would have been needed.....

It turned out that France subbed to a company for the information compilation and finger printing.....

Unsure if the visa was pre-approved and done by the company or sent on to the embassy for the final step....

It's possible some also use clearing houses....In that case the info might be available.....

If you didn't use an agent it would be easy to see how some items might have been incomplete and cause a rejection.....

[ubonjoe]

Moved to the visas for other countries forum.

[7by7]

pgrahmm,

Most, if not all, Schengen countries outsource the collection of visa applications these days. But these application centres play absolutely no part in the decision making process; they are merely paper pushers who collect all the documents, take biometrics and forward the application to the appropriate embassy for a decision.

There is no such thing as a pre approved application.

A visa agent may be able to help and advise in the preparation of an application; but has no influence over the decision.

buythisdashcam,

There is the Schengen Information System.

The SIS enables competent authorities, such as police and border guards, to enter and consult alerts on certain categories of wanted or missing persons and objects. An SIS alert not only contains information about a particular person or object but also clear instructions on what to do when the person or object has been found.

Although it does say

1. Regulation (EC) No 1987/2006 (Border control cooperation)
The SIS enables border guards and visa issuing and migration authorities to enter and consult alerts on third-country nationals for the purpose of refusing their entry into or stay in the Schengen Area.

I very much doubt this is routinely done for simple application refusals; it's more a law enforcement measure.

However, the Schengen visa application form does ask if the applicants fingerprints have previously been taken for a Schengen visa application, and if so when. obviously lying about this could have very serious consequences; a refusal and a long term ban form entering the Schengen Area.

The embassy concerned will also, usually, have made some form of entry in the applicants passport to show that an application has been rejected.

So even if they do not share information, the second embassy will know about the previous refusal.

This does not mean they will refuse as well.

Each application is assessed on it's own merits; and if the reasons for the previous refusal are adequately dealt with and the applicant shows that they meet the requirements in this application then they should be successful. Whether they apply to the same country or a different one.

Plus, the applicant can appeal against this decision. details of how to do so should have been included in the refusal notice.

Of course, whether applying again or appealing, if you want help in addressing the reasons for the previous refusal, we need to know exactly what they were.

What is your nationality and relationship to the applicant?

If you are an EEA national and the applicant is an immediate family member, e.g. your spouse, and will be travelling with or to join you then most of the requirements and questions on the application form wont apply to them.

Have a read of the Schengen Visa FAQ where you should find most of your questions answered.

Edited March 19, 2016 by 7by7

[Liquorice]

What was the reason for refusal?

Schengen Visas are rarely refused unless you submitted insufficient documentation, or they have a criminal record.

[Tony M]

There used to be something that we called the Schengen "database". I think it is now implemented globally as the Schengen Visa Information System. It is a central database, and contains all of the bio-data on Schengen visa applicants (photographs, fingerprints, etc). It can be accessed by Embassies, border controls, etc. So, in theory, "losing" a passport, and applying to a different country for a visa, will be picked up automatically.

[thairay]

just tell them they had no reason to refuse the visa and they are stupid..it worked with me

[Donutz]

7by7 pretty much wrote all that there is to be said. When an application is refused (only a low percentage is, on avarage roughly 3-5% though some Schengen embassies have as few refusal as around 1% while others as high as 12%) there will be a record of such. The Schengen members (and UK) have access to the VIS (Schengen database on applicants) and SIS (warning system on people with a ban amongst others). There should be a stamp in the passport aswell. So any refusal should pop up to prevent people from trying with several embassies: visa hopping.

When a visa is refused you can appeal this (for free) and may include additional documents/evidence when doing so. Or you can do a new application at the same embassy (which may simply deny it again, referring to the first application if the applicants circumstances have not changed, hence why one should consider either an appeal though a better prepared second application could also work).

When going to an other embassy they may wonder if/why your travelplans changed. Afterall you have to apply at the Schengen country that is the main destination of the trip and may question the change of plans is genuine.

There will always be a reason of refusal, there is a standard form with various ground to refuse a visa. Most common is that they refuse on ground of being uncertain if the applicant will leave the Schengen area in time (failure to return back to TH) or because the purpose of the trip raised questions. Basically distrusting the real intentions of the applicant, best countered with various arguments and evidence of ties to Thailand (a job or education to return to, children or elderly to take care off, property etc.)

Do remember that if the Thai national is a family member (such as spouse) of an EU national, traveling to an other EU country then the country were the EU national is a citizen of, the application cannot be refused unless on grounds such as national security. Such a visa application will also be free and via an accelerated and simplified procedure. See the Schengen sticky, especially the second post, for details

When we got one for France we used a Visa service - they asked for all kinds of stuff....Above and beyond what I thought would have been needed.....

It turned out that France subbed to a company for the information compilation and finger printing.....

Unsure if the visa was pre-approved and done by the company or sent on to the embassy for the final step....

It's possible some also use clearing houses....In that case the info might be available.....

If you didn't use an agent it would be easy to see how some items might have been incomplete and cause a rejection.....

- If you are British and you are married with your wife then a visa for France should be very easy to get and with almost no paperwork, basically only her passport, a copy of yours (to ID you), proof of marriage and something that makes it clear that she joins you to France for a trip (written statement by you, or a flight reservation).

- Various Schengen embassies use an external partner such as VFS Global or TLS Contact. These are optional partners which nobody, especially not spouse of EU nationals can be forced to use (and pay a service fee for). These partners are basically paperpushers but sometimes they like to act as if they have any decision powers (they do not!) or other signs of incompetence... Embassies love them though since they can/have to cut on staff and this setup will allow for budget cuts on embassy staff.

[bobrussell]

Better to sort out why the visa was refused!

A bit more information and the reasons for refusal and there are more than a few here that might be able to help.

Sadly there seem to be a number of countries that are making up their own rules as they go along so the application country matters as well!

Absolutely do not lie, bend the truth or try to pull a fast one! The penalties will be a lot greater than a refusal.

Use the free expertise here but remove any identifying details if you post images of the refusal notice.

[beano2274]

Think the Original poster needs to inform readers why it was refused, so that correct and valuable information can be given.

[buythisdashcam]

Hello, sorry but as you might know embassies do not give any reason, so it is not possible to know why someone who has a job and momey has been denied. Feel like to buy an AK47...

[Donutz]

Errr they do give a reason, they are obligated by the EU Visa Code to inform the applicant about the reason for denial, there even is a standard form for it. Just as they are required to explain what your options tomprotest the denial are. So either the embassy or applicant lost this form in which case you may wish to try to get a new one or the embassy made an error. Or (though less likely) the embassy violated the rules on purpose. Which embassy are we talking about anyway? Has the applicant or you tried to contact the embassy since the refusal? I'd ask them to explain!

[Donutz]

Reulation2009/810 Schengen Code on Visa:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32009R0810&from=NL

Article 32

Refusal of a visa

1. Without prejudice to Article 25(1), a visa shall be refused:

(a)

if the applicant:

(i)

presents a travel document which is false, counterfeit or forged;

(ii)

does not provide justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay;

(iii)

does not provide proof of sufficient means of subsistence, both for the duration of the intended stay and for the return to his country of origin or residence, or for the transit to a third country into which he is certain to be admitted, or is not in a position to acquire such means lawfully;

(iv)

has already stayed for three months during the current six-month period on the territory of the Member States on the basis of a uniform visa or a visa with limited territorial validity;

(v)

is a person for whom an alert has been issued in the SIS for the purpose of refusing entry;

(vi)

is considered to be a threat to public policy, internal security or public health as defined in Article 2(19) of the Schengen Borders Code or to the international relations of any of the Member States, in particular where an alert has been issued in Member States national databases for the purpose of refusing entry on the same grounds; or

(vii)

does not provide proof of holding adequate and valid travel medical insurance, where applicable;

or

(

if there are reasonable doubts as to the authenticity of the supporting documents submitted by the applicant or the veracity of their contents, the reliability of the statements made by the applicant or his intention to leave the territory of the Member States before the expiry of the visa applied for.

2. A decision on refusal and the reasons on which it is based shall be notified to the applicant by means of the standard form set out in Annex VI.

3. Applicants who have been refused a visa shall have the right to appeal. Appeals shall be conducted against the Member State that has taken the final decision on the application and in accordance with the national law of that Member State. Member States shall provide applicants with information regarding the procedure to be followed in the event of an appeal, as specified in Annex VI.

4. In the cases referred to in Article 8(2), the consulate of the representing Member State shall inform the applicant of the decision taken by the represented Member State.

5. Information on a refused visa shall be entered into the VIS in accordance with Article 12 of the VIS Regulation.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Donutz

[buythisdashcam]

The only reason is:

"The information submitted regarding the justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay are not reliable"

It seems to be a standard form/reply and I would be surprised that anybody got a more detailed letter ?

[sunnyjim5]

The only reason is:

"The information submitted regarding the justification for the purpose and conditions of the intended stay are not reliable"

It seems to be a standard form/reply and I would be surprised that anybody got a more detailed letter ?

That reason may be true.

What reasons were used for justifying the purpose of applying for the visa?

[beano2274]

What visa did the applicant apply for? visitor, tourist or what?

To the OP, find out the information, as here you are going on heresay (something someone told you, with no real proof, just what they tell you)

Edited March 22, 2016 by beano2274

[Donutz]

The reason you shared here would bet he second to last one on the standardized form. The most common reason is the last one: the embassy being uncertain of the applicant leaving the Schengen area in time (back to Thailand). The embassy either had no doubts on the applicant returning or were too lazy to check this box aswell when they concluded the travel plans were insufficient. The visa may have been refused over doubts of the accommodation or the plans for her trip. So this would be a good start to figure out why the visa was denied. Was there anything wrong regarding accommodation? Could there be anything unclear or raise a red flag regarding her plans? Think of scenarios such as (besides obvious lacking paperwork) the applicant telling that they will tour around Europe/the country yet show a reservation in the very same hotel for the entire stay. Or telling that they will stay with a friend being unclear about the relation to the host, or indicating they will go sight seeing but when asked at the counter (during the few questions applicants get when handing in the documents) give conflicting statements to the staff member (or even admit they plan to work, which is not allowed!).

- What embassy are we talking about?

- What is your relation to the applicant (spouse? If so are you an EU national?)

- Anything you can think of that could raise questions?

- Can you give an overview of what she applied for and submitted?

[buythisdashcam]

Tourist visa, nothing wrong in documents, hotel booking and everything alright, I checked the documents myself. Person not related to me but who never traveled abroad before.

[mgb]

Did the person really get a rejection in writing or was he only fobbed off from the thai embloyees of a embassy/VAC.

Edited March 22, 2016 by mgb

[Donutz]

Tourist visa, nothing wrong in documents, hotel booking and everything alright, I checked the documents myself. Person not related to me but who never traveled abroad before.

How odd, if a Thai never travelled before an embassy may fear that the intentions were not genuine, but then a refusal on grounds of being uncertain if the Thai will return is the most common scenario. So either they declined this person fearing she would work illegally or some error was made. Depending on which embassy we are talking about I'd gues that the "fear of illegally going to work" is the most plausible. But an appeal would be worth a try. Afterall it's merely a suspsicion without any grounds what so ever. Assuming the application was well prepared: hotelbookings etc. a travel plan that made sense, duration that makes sense (how many Thai can get 90 days off from work for instance? Not many) etc. So look into an appeal. And/or try to establish a more positive profile by visiting other countries as to show that she is a genuine tourist who isn't going abroad for illegal work and who returns in time. But as said, few visas are refused, number would be much much higher if all Thai who never went abroad were denied their visa. Without knowing any details it's hard to rule out something was wrong with the paperwork afterall.

[bobrussell]

Tourist visa, nothing wrong in documents, hotel booking and everything alright, I checked the documents myself. Person not related to me but who never traveled abroad before.

What you may consider alright paperwork may not meet the particular expectations of the person processing the visa!

As stated it is difficult to be sure without knowing a lot more information. Which country? How long a stay? Employment and permission to take time off work? Affordability of stay?

Visa applications are a potential minefield which explains why there are so many agents and 'experts' out there!

[buythisdashcam]

Europe infested by migrants from the best countries in the world dare to refuse Visa to Asian... which them the best AK47...

[beano2274]

to the OP, give proper reliable information and you get good information, at the moment you have said she was refused and you checked all the paperwork, but people on here know exactly what is required and what the next steps will be.

For info, I have for my wife got many Tourist visas and also for my MIL using information gathered on this website from people in the know. So supply the information or others will think you are trolling....

[buythisdashcam]

Thank you but you do not need more information than what has been explained here, and of course I guess that getting a Visa for a wife is not so complicated...

Thank you for all replies.

to the OP, give proper reliable information and you get good information, at the moment you have said she was refused and you checked all the paperwork, but people on here know exactly what is required and what the next steps will be.

For info, I have for my wife got many Tourist visas and also for my MIL using information gathered on this website from people in the know. So supply the information or others will think you are trolling....

Edited March 23, 2016 by buythisdashcam

[beano2274]

you have explained nothing about the refusal or what documents you checked for your friend, until then you will get non helpful answers

[bobrussell]

Not much point in asking for advice or information unless you are willing to give enough information to get that help.

People here have experience of actually being granted visas and genuinely want to help others.

I suppose the only thing that can be said in answer to your original post is, yes they can communicate but you have to reveal that a previous Schengen visa has been rejected so it doesn't really matter if they do or not.

[Donutz]

Europe infested by migrants from the best countries in the world dare to refuse Visa to Asian... which them the best AK47...

Most Asians (including Thai) get their visa without much or any hassle. A refusal rate of 2-3-4% isn't bad, certainly not when you count in that poorly prepared applications contribute to this. A well prepared application should have a very slim chanche of getting refused.

As a Thai you are more likely to get a visa then that a random refugee has on getting assylum (except people from Syria, but even those don't have a 100% succes rate).

Schengen visa statistics (those over 2015 are very recent, on first sight I see that NL went from 1% to 3,2% ):

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/index_en.htm#stats

Schengen refusal ate (Thailand based applications) over 2015:

Austria

0,5%

Belgium

7,6%

Czech Republic

0,9%

Denmark

4,9%

Finland

1,9%

France

4,6%

Germany

2,3%

Greece

4,1%

Hungary

0,8%

Italy

1,9%

Luxembourg

0,4%

Netherlands

3,2%

Norway

3,3%

Poland

2,1%

Portugal

2,8%

Slovakia

2,8%

Spain

1,1%

Sweden

12,2%

Switzerland

4,3%

Avarage refusal % in TH

3,4%

Global refusal avarage

6,2%

Thank you but you do not need more information than what has been explained here, and of course I guess that getting a Visa for a wife is not so complicated...

Thank you for all replies.

It depends on the embassy or ECO, some argue that a spouse/partner will have the European citizen to make sure nothing illegal (overstay, work, ...) will be commited. Others argue that the couple may decide to try and settle in (which would be illegal on a short stay visa and if you ask me a very stupid move that only desperate idiots would attempt). Generally I think those who go on an organized tour have the best chanche, sadly the statistics don't give details per all these categories. But a Thai traveling alone or visiting friends still stands a very good chanche in general. If ofcourse there are no red flags such as requesting a 3 month holiday while being employed or other such silly things as that.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Donutz

[7by7]

Thank you but you do not need more information than what has been explained here

But you have explained nothing; other than she was refused and you think you provided all the required information with the application!

Maybe you did and the decision maker made an error; they're human, it happens.

But it is as, if not more, possible that you are the one who made a mistake and you missed something vital.

However, as you won't give us the information we need to help you, we can't say which it is and we can't advise you on how to prepare an appeal or new application.

and of course I guess that getting a Visa for a wife is not so complicated

Only if the husband is an EEA national and they are applying to a state other than that of which the husband is a citizen.

Unless the applicant is a qualifying family member of an EEA national, the requirements are the same for all applicants; married or not.

[laolover88]

Something wrong here

OP does not indicate basis of refusal, and that is quite uncommon if all conditions are met

and

We don't know which Embassy

The general principle is to apply for a Visa to the first country you visit. If you start trawling around countries, has to be wondered what the purpose of visit is!