Debt fills Thailand's rice bowl

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

Show me a developed country where people didn't leave the farms and go to the cities.

Show me a developed country were the farms aren't now big to justify mechanization.

Show me a developed country which doesn't now have far fewer people living on and working bigger farms.

While the US and Canada have amazing amounts of high quality farmland, I don't know anyone who could make a living with it if having only a small farm the size of most Thai farms.

Big, consolidated, and mechanized.

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Would agree for the most part, except can probably add nasty GMO into the western mix.

The industrial revolution came and went in the west, seems the next step will be more automation with more jobs disappearing, so what does countries like Thailand do.

Essentially what is going on is debt slavery, those who can afford to lend get richer and those who overextended lose it all. Worldwide there is a huge transfer of wealth underway, hopefully a return to Feudalism won't be the eventual outcome.

Like farmers here many in the west are also way overleveraged, there is a lot of get out of debt companies flourishing here at home. Even entire countries get enticed with easy loans and then lose all their public assets trying to repay.

Have no magic answers to the problem. To be free of debt is very difficult for many.

I grew up on a debt-free wheat and cattle ranch and most of the neighbors were debt free. There is a ton of money going into those combines and another ton made from cattle which graze where the land can't be mechanized. Can't be as in steep, rocky, etc.

Being in debt is all about a belief system. Few ever actually have to get there.

I see about 8 million dollars worth of combines in that picture and I'll bet that none of them belong to the wheat ranch. I'll bet they all belong to someone who does nothing but harvest wheat. I'll bet he starts in the S. of the country where it's warm and the wheat matures first, and then works his way North until the job is done. Then he can start over with the next crop. You can get two crops of wheat per year. I'll bet he works on a price per ton of wheat which will be calculated as the dump trucks take the wheat to the elevator and it's weighed and purchased.

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You where debt free because of government subsidies direct or indirect. There where no western country that didn't heavily subsidised its farmers from 1950's to 1990's. After the 1990's the subsidies decreased but more protection was put into place to keep cheaper exports out and thereby increasing local agricultural commodity prices. Most farmers in the US, UK and EU are still subsidized or protected from cheaper imports. A few links: http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21643191-crop-prices-fall-farmers-grow-subsidies-instead-milking-taxpayers

http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/GB/. http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/

Edited March 20, 2016 by SOUTHERNSTAR

[phoenixdoglover]

She may be struggling to get the ends to meet, but her kids and grandkids (the next generations of Thais, especially in N.E.) are the ones who really will struggle when they "grow up" realizing the government screwed them over with all these fancy government loans, the lack of restrictions on banks lending them money way to easily, and the car companies selling cars with terrible deals to low incomers.

Mark my words. Their brand new pickups, Iphones and gold watches on a 15,000 baht salary is going to hurt when the government, the banks and car companies suddenly starts nagging about their money when times get rougher. It happens, and it will happen again. Thailand don't have any backup like most western countries. In Thailand, the people, especially the poor people with much debt, are the ones who will take the bill for the country to get through rough times, leaving them even poorer. And even if times weren't ever to get bad for Thailand in the next 3 generations, very many of these debt strucken youngsters in Thailand won't do anything else than just paying off their loans for decades, if not for the rest of their lives.

Thailand has never had such a "booming" economy in modern history. It's just sad that the Thais don't understand it's booming economy is a "borrowed" one, not a strong and sustainable one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would not be so harsh. She used loans to buy farm equipment, education for her kids, and 3 motorcycles. These seem like sound moves.

Farm equipment to improve her farming.

Education for her kids (perhaps so they can lead a better life than her)

Three motorcycle so the family has basic transportation (probably at a fraction of the cost of one small car)

Although her farm may be fallow due to the drought, her other expenditures may yet yield dividends.

If this drought continues, given the severity and the inadequate government response, there could be a reshaping of rural Thailand. I would expect the cities to grow as people give up farming, sell out and move. We can debate whether this is a good thing; but it is certainly the common pattern throughout modern history.

I wasn't talking about her, but the younger generations. She invested in something that may very well pay off. The younger generation invests very little but spends a lot. Even she struggles, so it is likely the younger generation will be worse off. Few parents in N.E. have money enough to pay for a good education. It's usually paid by the students themselves by working after school hours are over. When they're done with the university, most of them finds themself a random job, buys a pickup, get kids, buys expensive phones, gold and clothes.

I agree that Thais are turning more from farming to city jobs, but with all the debt they're collecting, it won't be many decades before they're back on the farms.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My wife grew up on a farm 50 km west of Khon Kaen in the 1960's & 70's. Her siblings stayed on, while she moved to Bangkok to escape the obligations of the youngest girl. Her generation, now in their 40's and 50's was a transition.

Most of the next generation is gone from the village and working in KK and BKK. They have jobs and decent prospects. A few have children who will grow up in the city or suburbs.

I suspect this is playing out in most villages in the region.

Sure, a few will go back, but like my grand-nephew, with a tech school education, and a head for agribusiness.

[wabothai]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

What would be your first priority? Sleds and dogs?

[wabothai]

Show me a developed country where people didn't leave the farms and go to the cities.

Show me a developed country were the farms aren't now big to justify mechanization.

Show me a developed country which doesn't now have far fewer people living on and working bigger farms.

While the US and Canada have amazing amounts of high quality farmland, I don't know anyone who could make a living with it if having only a small farm the size of most Thai farms.

Big, consolidated, and mechanized.

534ff2a6a135758aa942fe6e31531775.jpg

JD-harvest-Wheat.jpg

Corbis-42-26932822.jpg

Would agree for the most part, except can probably add nasty GMO into the western mix.

The industrial revolution came and went in the west, seems the next step will be more automation with more jobs disappearing, so what does countries like Thailand do.

Essentially what is going on is debt slavery, those who can afford to lend get richer and those who overextended lose it all. Worldwide there is a huge transfer of wealth underway, hopefully a return to Feudalism won't be the eventual outcome.

Like farmers here many in the west are also way overleveraged, there is a lot of get out of debt companies flourishing here at home. Even entire countries get enticed with easy loans and then lose all their public assets trying to repay.

Have no magic answers to the problem. To be free of debt is very difficult for many.

I grew up on a debt-free wheat and cattle ranch and most of the neighbors were debt free. There is a ton of money going into those combines and another ton made from cattle which graze where the land can't be mechanized. Can't be as in steep, rocky, etc.

Being in debt is all about a belief system. Few ever actually have to get there.

I see about 8 million dollars worth of combines in that picture and I'll bet that none of them belong to the wheat ranch. I'll bet they all belong to someone who does nothing but harvest wheat. I'll bet he starts in the S. of the country where it's warm and the wheat matures first, and then works his way North until the job is done. Then he can start over with the next crop. You can get two crops of wheat per year. I'll bet he works on a price per ton of wheat which will be calculated as the dump trucks take the wheat to the elevator and it's weighed and purchased.

Look at just how big those combines really are and imagine how much they can harvest. Look at them dwarf the big semi truck as they load it. Think of the money.

932632.jpg

534ff2a6a135758aa942fe6e31531775.jpg

Crops have been bought and paid for in advance by huge corporations.

[Lupatria]

Everything loaned has to be payed back. Even if you get at preferential rates one day reality kicks in. It's a hard lesson to learn and I learnt it many years ago with a out of control credit card. Then bad times came and unable to pay back.. Tough times but we have the ability and opportunities to go out and work hard and earn big money hourly and weekly. Thais don't have same option due to workplace, minimum wage and lack of education.. I feel for them but the last poster is right as the banks have just loaned and not addressed the ability to pay back.

Everything loaned has to be payed back.

Too bad that the majority does not consider this to be a part of Thainess.

[SpokaneAl]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

What would be your first priority? Sleds and dogs?

Three new scooters financed at most likely 100%? Nope. The money did not fall from the sky - it must be repaid.

[SpokaneAl]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

What would be your first priority? Sleds and dogs?

Three new scooters financed at most likely 100%? Nope. The money did not fall from the sky - it must be repaid, as she is now painfully discovering.

[JAG]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

As a broader point, the economic and agricultural structures in Thailand keep these farmers poor, and the readily available (for political reasons) credit means borrowing is often the only way they can survive. A properly thought out and fully and fairly implemented policy to: 1, allow fair returns to the farmers for their efforts, 2, creating a proper infrastructure which allows for the fact that much of Thailand is an agrarian society, with people living in small villages and forced to spend much of their income on services which are cheap or free in urban areas, and sensible restructuring and control of debt (which is mostly held by government owned banks), would reduce that poverty. Yes it would cost, but I suspect a lot less than coping with the possible collapse of the rural economy and its society.

Edited March 20, 2016 by JAG

[SpokaneAl]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

Whatever the reason, combined with her other purchases, she is now in deep financial trouble. Whether that was generated by poor financial counseling or no financial counseling, she woke up this morning in far worse financial shape than she was prior to accepting the loans, which is sad.

[phoenixdoglover]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

Whatever the reason, combined with her other purchases, she is now in deep financial trouble. Whether that was generated by poor financial counseling or no financial counseling, she woke up this morning in far worse financial shape than she was prior to accepting the loans, which is sad.

Or maybe her poor position was also caused by widespread drought and official mismanagement of water resources.

[kinmaew]

Another episode of "Thais and their debts" and I could not give a f***** rats arse. I will keep my investment and cash in my home country and treat Thailand like the "temporary fantasy land" it is.

[assayer]

It would seem the Rich and the Banks are in a conspiracy, keep the farmers

in debt .offering them more and more loans they cannot repay,then have

their land repossessed,which is sold off to the large landowners and influential

people,the biggest mystery is where did all that money go, the Government

handed farmers,paying twice the World price for Rice,its a right mess that will

go on for years and years.

regards Worgeordie

I feel the rich, the banks, and the government are all one and the same!

Edited March 20, 2016 by assayer

[trogers]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

As a broader point, the economic and agricultural structures in Thailand keep these farmers poor, and the readily available (for political reasons) credit means borrowing is often the only way they can survive. A properly thought out and fully and fairly implemented policy to: 1, allow fair returns to the farmers for their efforts, 2, creating a proper infrastructure which allows for the fact that much of Thailand is an agrarian society, with people living in small villages and forced to spend much of their income on services which are cheap or free in urban areas, and sensible restructuring and control of debt (which is mostly held by government owned banks), would reduce that poverty. Yes it would cost, but I suspect a lot less than coping with the possible collapse of the rural economy and its society.

Three bicycles would not require selling away one's farmland...

[seajae]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

Whatever the reason, combined with her other purchases, she is now in deep financial trouble. Whether that was generated by poor financial counseling or no financial counseling, she woke up this morning in far worse financial shape than she was prior to accepting the loans, which is sad.

Or maybe her poor position was also caused by widespread drought and official mismanagement of water resources.

thats it, if the PTP govt and YL had not released all that water that was not necessary they would more than likely had enough water to keep going plus everyone else would be in much better positions. Blaming YL and the PTP is a really smart move by you for a change

Edited March 20, 2016 by seajae

[SoilSpoil]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

Whatever the reason, combined with her other purchases, she is now in deep financial trouble. Whether that was generated by poor financial counseling or no financial counseling, she woke up this morning in far worse financial shape than she was prior to accepting the loans, which is sad.

Or maybe her poor position was also caused by widespread drought and official mismanagement of water resources.

Or maybe she didn't listen to the warnings not to grow crops? Most farmers go in debt before they plant and repay when they sell their harvest. It doesn't require a lot of brain cells to figure out that this is a money losing scheme The vicious cycle especially gets tricky when you can't harvest, like in periods of drought or floods. Its the farmers themselves who clearly lived above their means in the past and took out loans on future earnings to support a certain lifestyle. The fact that evil banks and governments stimulated this lending to get their hands on their lands, does not take away the fact hat the farmers are themselves responsible for their financial choices.

Also, how many farmers took a crop insurance?

[kimamey]

I do feel for the struggling farmers. They deserve so much more than what the govt have done for them. Or in this case what they haven't done for them. Offer sustainable policy empowering them to succeed without any financial support from govt.

All this article tells me are the farmers are ripe for voting for who ever offers the biggest carrot again thus ensuring the cycle repeats over and over.

So sad.

Correct they are ready to vote for whoever offers them salvation (and guess what it will not help again).

Your right only sustainable policy helps them, in a way its good the junta is outlawing popular policies otherwise this will go on forever and nobody will ever try try to really help them.... just bribe them and use them.

It's a fine line to tread for the banks and the government (current and future). If the banks don't lend money the loan sharks will. The country and farmers in particular are suffering due to high income that wasn't sustainable rather than long term increased income that was. The government now has to try to help so the economy doesn't suffer without fuelling more debt.

The issue of voters supporting whoever promises most is a problem in all countries but to differing degrees. At the moment Thailand seems to be suffering particularly badly. The last PTP government clearly went down the route of policies that looked tempting from the short term financial view. The Democrats could have done the same or more but instead seemed to look towards the long term.

Leaving aside Thaksin's obvious desire to get an amnesty which in the end started the events leading to its downfall how would they have fared in the future if they'd survived? They had already tried to reduce the amount given to farmers for rice but backed off after threats of protests. Could they have managed the economy in the long term if they'd stayed in power or would the demands of the farmers and the rest of the country expose the short term nature of their policies? Did they plan for the long term at all? The Democrat's policies might have been more sustainable but if you're in opposition you don't get to prove it. Would they have been better off offering more so they could demonstrate their economic management? In both cases time is needed to see the long term effects of the policies they offer and for the opposition to show where the government is wrong. The coup did bring relief from the protests and violence but it stopped both sides from presenting their views in parliament and seeing the longer term results.

I hope this changes but I'm not holding my breath.

[phoenixdoglover]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that, with two or more children at school, and living in what sounds like a very isolated village, that there is no public transport or school vans available to take her children to school. A motorcycle is the only option for the child to get to school. I certainly know one person, a nursing assistant on ThB 9000 a month whose two children, one attending Matayom and one attending Technical College have no other option for getting to school. As well as working full time she cooks and sells food in the early morning market to make ends meet (just).

Whatever the reason, combined with her other purchases, she is now in deep financial trouble. Whether that was generated by poor financial counseling or no financial counseling, she woke up this morning in far worse financial shape than she was prior to accepting the loans, which is sad.

Or maybe her poor position was also caused by widespread drought and official mismanagement of water resources.

thats it, if the PTP govt and YL had not released all that water that was not necessary they would more than likely had enough water to keep going plus everyone else would be in much better positions. Blaming YL and the PTP is a really smart move by you for a change

Actually, I would attribute poor water management to a whole range of elected and permanent officials for the past 10 to 20 years. That is the time frame that would be required to construct a better infrastructure.

Cheerio.

[ChrisY1]

She borrowed to buy three motorcycles? That would not be my first priority.

And didn't mention the 55" tv!.......I wonder if she has teeth?

[WhizBang]

Have you ever known a Thai who wanted to borrow money from you, who actually intended to pay it back? I sure haven't.

To most Thais, borrow means GIVE. No pay back involved. Most Thais cannot think beyond the next 5 minutes.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Who says you have to pay back a loan?

[elgordo38]

She may be struggling to get the ends to meet, but her kids and grandkids (the next generations of Thais, especially in N.E.) are the ones who really will struggle when they "grow up" realizing the government screwed them over with all these fancy government loans, the lack of restrictions on banks lending them money way to easily, and the car companies selling cars with terrible deals to low incomers.

Mark my words. Their brand new pickups, Iphones and gold watches on a 15,000 baht salary is going to hurt when the government, the banks and car companies suddenly starts nagging about their money when times get rougher. It happens, and it will happen again. Thailand don't have any backup like most western countries. In Thailand, the people, especially the poor people with much debt, are the ones who will take the bill for the country to get through rough times, leaving them even poorer. And even if times weren't ever to get bad for Thailand in the next 3 generations, very many of these debt strucken youngsters in Thailand won't do anything else than just paying off their loans for decades, if not for the rest of their lives.

Thailand has never had such a "booming" economy in modern history. It's just sad that the Thais don't understand it's booming economy is a "borrowed" one, not a strong and sustainable one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure Thailand has an answer. Print bahts and negative interest rates. Monkey see monkey do.

[Nigeone]

Who says you have to pay back a loan?

Nobody ! But it sure helps if you want another one !

[halloween]

As a broader point, the economic and agricultural structures in Thailand keep these farmers poor, and the readily available (for political reasons) credit means borrowing is often the only way they can survive. A properly thought out and fully and fairly implemented policy to: 1, allow fair returns to the farmers for their efforts, 2, creating a proper infrastructure which allows for the fact that much of Thailand is an agrarian society, with people living in small villages and forced to spend much of their income on services which are cheap or free in urban areas, and sensible restructuring and control of debt (which is mostly held by government owned banks), would reduce that poverty. Yes it would cost, but I suspect a lot less than coping with the possible collapse of the rural economy and its society.

1/ It's called a free market. If it doesn't provide a good enough return (and it never will with a labor-intensive low value crop) do something else. Or is that advice only for non-farmers?

2/ "Agrarian society" is a euphemism for poor, uneducated and gullible. But others poverty suits some, so they promote a false bucolic ideal. So rather than encouraging change, let's spend up big with ongoing support, paid for by those with more productivity. Rather than improving infrastructure and services, pour money into the bottomless pit of sustaining lifestyle for those who can't earn enough at their current occupation. As long as its agrarian.

[Enoon]

I do feel for the struggling farmers. They deserve so much more than what the govt have done for them. Or in this case what they haven't done for them. Offer sustainable policy empowering them to succeed without any financial support from govt.

All this article tells me are the farmers are ripe for voting for who ever offers the biggest carrot again thus ensuring the cycle repeats over and over.

So sad.

Where in the world do people not vote for the "carrots" when given the opportunity?

When did you last vote for a "stick" (for your own back rather than another persons)?

I

[trogers]

I do feel for the struggling farmers. They deserve so much more than what the govt have done for them. Or in this case what they haven't done for them. Offer sustainable policy empowering them to succeed without any financial support from govt.

All this article tells me are the farmers are ripe for voting for who ever offers the biggest carrot again thus ensuring the cycle repeats over and over.

So sad.

Where in the world do people not vote for the "carrots" when given the opportunity?

When did you last vote for a "stick" (for your own back rather than another persons)?

I

Those with a future are those who saw the carrot as a bait in a trap. But such foresight requires brain matter...