Animal Feeds

[RamdomChances]

Ok the dry season is upon us and it looks like it's going to be a tough one. So has anyone got any suggestions tips on what would be the best bought in forage/food for your bhat. I'm also looking at doing my own concentrate mix, I used to have a link with some "recipies" but for some reason firefox lost all my links and I can't for the life of me find it any more. The idea is to save a bit of money on the bagged food to enable me to spend a bit more on forage.

What's peanut like as a protien source for cattle they grow quite a lot around here and I could buy direct from the farm (they would probably throw the plant bit in as well)

[Gary A]

Ok the dry season is upon us and it looks like it's going to be a tough one. So has anyone got any suggestions tips on what would be the best bought in forage/food for your bhat. I'm also looking at doing my own concentrate mix, I used to have a link with some "recipies" but for some reason firefox lost all my links and I can't for the life of me find it any more. The idea is to save a bit of money on the bagged food to enable me to spend a bit more on forage.

What's peanut like as a protien source for cattle they grow quite a lot around here and I could buy direct from the farm (they would probably throw the plant bit in as well)

That reminds me of a question about soybeans. The farmers around here pull up the entire plant when it just starts turning brown. What do they do with them after they get them all pulled up. They appear green enough that they would mold if not used quickly.

[teletiger]

Ok the dry season is upon us and it looks like it's going to be a tough one. So has anyone got any suggestions tips on what would be the best bought in forage/food for your bhat. I'm also looking at doing my own concentrate mix, I used to have a link with some "recipies" but for some reason firefox lost all my links and I can't for the life of me find it any more. The idea is to save a bit of money on the bagged food to enable me to spend a bit more on forage.

What's peanut like as a protien source for cattle they grow quite a lot around here and I could buy direct from the farm (they would probably throw the plant bit in as well)

I would have thought that raw peanuts would make an expensive feed. Found this.

Peanuts

Peanut production is prevalent

in the southern half of Alabama.

Peanuts create several by-product

feeds including broken and cull

nuts, skins, hulls, and vines that

are used as a hay crop.

Raw peanuts. Because of their

high monetary value, very few

whole peanuts are used as cattle

feed, although they can be used

when available. The nutritional

analysis is as follows: 38 percent

fat, 24 percent protein, and 95

percent TDN. Similar to whole

cottonseed, the limiting factor is

the fat content. A maximum of

about 4 pounds per day for grown

cows should be recognized. As

with any feed containing a high

fat content, introduce it to cattle

gradually. Indications are that

cattle will readily consume

peanuts in the shell. Occasionally,

raw peanuts are available as a

result of aflatoxin contamination.

In this case, an accurate measurement

of the aflatoxin concentration

should be determined and

the feed used accordingly. In general,

beef cattle can tolerate up to

200 to 400 ppb in their diet

depending on size and age of the

animals.

Taken from........ http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-1237/ANR-1237.pdf

Regards

[teletiger]

That reminds me of a question about soybeans. The farmers around here pull up the entire plant when it just starts turning brown. What do they do with them after they get them all pulled up. They appear green enough that they would mold if not used quickly.

Mostly tofu, soy milk and noodles.

Regards

[RamdomChances]

I would have thought that raw peanuts would make an expensive feed. Found this.

Thanks for that, I was only thinking of useing them just to up the protien content, as if I'm going to try to get to about 18% there has to be something to bring that up. The thing is they are fairly readily avalible here and if I get direct from the farm then mabye this will offset the cost.

Most of the other high value protien sources I would have to buy from a supplier, therfore incuring his cut as well. I've used the plant part before with some sucsess, the problem with it is geting a supply and storing it.

I'd be intrested in Soya as well but they dont seem to grow it around here.

I was thinking mabye peanuts, cassava and something as a base, the more ingrediants you put in the more your transport cost are going to be.

Edited October 31, 2006 by RamdomChances

[Maizefarmer]

How many of you actually check moisture content when purchasing maize seed or sliced cassava - or any other dried crop for that matter?

Shelled dried corn, or dried & sliced cassava - always ask what the mositure content is (%) and check yourself with a probe if at all possible. Last resort - take a sample home and check yourself (the old microwave methodology is accuarte down to 2 - 3%).

1 ton of maize seed or cassava slices, while appearing quite dry could contain anything from as little as 8% mositure to as much as 30% moisture.

That makes a big differance to the ultimate amount of "food" you are getting.

Costs nothing to check moisture content - check it.

Tim

[teletiger]

The ingredient that gives the biggest bang for the Baht is urea (46.0.0). Add 2% (20 kilos per ton) and it raises protien 5%. 20 kilos of urea costs about 240 Baht. Care should be taken due to the toxic nature of urea. Protien obtained from urea should not constitute more than 50% of total protien in the mix.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

TT - offhand, do you know what the protein content of Urea is?

Tim

[teletiger]

280%. Sounds strange right? I actually use 250% in calculations, because all urea in not created equal.

regards

[RamdomChances]

The ingredient that gives the biggest bang for the Baht is urea (46.0.0). Add 2% (20 kilos per ton) and it raises protien 5%. 20 kilos of urea costs about 240 Baht. Care should be taken due to the toxic nature of urea. Protien obtained from urea should not constitute more than 50% of total protien in the mix.

Regards

It's not quite as simple as that though is it ?....or am I wrong? You just can't feed Urea and you have to have a base for it to react to. Like I've said before I had some good results with Fang Mak but sort of hit a wall after about 6 months, mabye I was feeding it at too high levels. Just for intrest I used to use 100 kg for 280 bails of Fang and according to everything I read it should of lifted it from about 3 % to about 8% I was buying in Fang at 17-20 bhat/bail delivered and put into the silos (I estermated a bail to be 15-20 kg by sample)

So using the worst figs 15kg fang for 20 bhat = 1.3 bhat/kg plus 1000 bhat urea/280 bails/15 kg = 3.57 = 0.24 That would give me something like 1.54 bhat/kg. Apparently cassava goes very well with Fang Mak, something to do with by-pass protiens

From the other thread we were talking 1,860 for pinapple silage or 1.86 bhat/Kg for 7% I would assume you would not have the same problems with feeding that and it will probably have a higher Carb/energy content.

I've been reading quite a bit today about Maize "stovers" aparently they can be treated with urea as well. I'm a bit confused with wether they are talking about the actuall husk part of the cob or the residual plant, further complicated by some stating about 8% and others as low as less than 3%. One link, which I can no longer find was talking about Maize straw which I would definatly assume to be the plant leftover (dried), anyway it's a bit late now, but how about sohgam stalks ?

Any I deas on what to use for a concentrate mix ?

[Maizefarmer]

No - not at all, because if you understand how these things are caluclated (which it sounds as if you do), then you will knwo that there are cases in which a percentage of something can be measured at well over 100%.

At risk of someone pointing out to me that I am now takinga simple matter and making it complicated, I still none-the-less want to add this to your comments regards urea.

Firstly though - yes, urea is most certainly a very viable source of protein in feed - BUT (and its a big but) it's addition or use as a substitute has to be implemented carefully - not so much because it represents a potential toxin risk - but because ones efforts to use it to reduce expenses can quite easily turn into nothing but a complete waste.

here are the relivant points;

A cows ability to absorb urea is totaly dependant on the amount of digestible nutrient in what ever it is been feed. In simple terms that means that just because a cow is been fed what is calculated to be the correct amount of urea on a volume or weight basis in any ration, it does no tmean that the cow's digestive system wil labsorb the protein from that urea. In fact I would guess that in most cases as urea is used by dairy farmers in Thailand it is a complete waste of urea, protein and money - as most of it just pases straight through.

In practical terms in Thailand this will mean:

- if you are maintaining your livestock on rice straw and or some other type of grass or a leaf based forage, and are adding to it urea to increase the protein % - you are at worst wasting your time, and at best getting perhaps 20% - 30% of the potential benefit that the urea had to offer.

Why?

Because the absorbtion of Urea in the cows digestive system is down to what is called TDN - Total Digestible Nutrient - of which grasses and straws are a poor source of. No TDN or min TDN and the cows digestive system will not "recognise" the nitrogen component in urea (which is what is required to trigger protein absorbtion from urea - and I'll leave it there - unless of course someone wants me to detail the bio chemistry in more detail).

To keep it simple - for urea to work as an additive to any forage based feed (fresh or ensiled) it should be incorporated with a grain or a molasses - but never the 2 together - only one or the other.

Adding a bit of both will result in one competing with the other - and both bio systems cannot operate side by side in the cowsa digestive tract - either the grain or the molasses will be rejected and pass right through (it is usualy the molasses that losses the battle).

If anyone wants the detail and lowdown on this I am happy to write somemore, suffice to say that as a rule if feeding urea as a protein additive or substitute, it must be feed mixed into a feed which contains, along with the straw, or grass, of leaf forage, a high TDN type component. Faliure to do so wil lresult in a large part of the urea prtein passing striaght through and been excreted - deafeating the very objective of the exercise.

Here are some basic guidelines against the background of my personal experiance in using urea in Thailand.

1) Urea should not exceed 1% of total DM - to exceed this figure will result in reduced total feed intake and result in slower growth - a total contradiction to the objective.

2) Dry Cows - no more than about 100 - 150grams per day per cow total urea (irrspective of feed type and qauntity of feed eating by the animal).

3) Do not use urea as a nitrogen suppliment in high protein feeds.

4) Do not let more than about 30-35% of total nitrogen intake be acounted for by way of urea - it wil result in slowed down growth.

Theer are a whole host of other issues associated with using urea, but in Thailand it is my experiance that the aboev are typical of the feed errors I ahve seen made in using urea as a feed additive and/or protein sustitute.

In summary - yes, urea is a brilliant source of cheap protein - but only if used in the correct way.

Tim

Edited October 31, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[RamdomChances]

1) Urea should not exceed 1% of total DM - to exceed this figure will result in reduced total feed intake and result in slower growth - a total contradiction to the objective.

Now most of the litriture you see printed on urea treated straw(Fang Mak) states that one of the advantages of it is that it actually makes the straw more palatable so the cows will actually increase their intake of straw (I'll attest to this being true as mine did).

Now if we assume that the original straw is dry and 20kg a bail (I know it's not but probably 90% +). Now if my memory serves me right they were eating on ave about half a bail/day (ad lib) so that would work out at :-

(20kg/2)x 2% = .2 kg

If they were getting 8 kg of concentrate as well then their total intake would be 18kg a day so for a DM intake of not more than 1% that would mean a max of .18kg of urea a day.

(These are very rough figures for an "average" cow with lot of )

So I was feeding above the 1%, do you think this could explain the gradual decreace in production, it may well explain that even with a small amount of fresh grass the production shot staight up ?

Oh I forgot to put this link in earlier, it may be of intrest to TT

Utilization of agricultural by-products as livestock feeds in Africa

Edited October 31, 2006 by RamdomChances

[Maizefarmer]

RDC

Off the top of my head, and with out taking apart what you have said in a scientific way and trying to analyis it against possible considerations and factors (e.g. age of cow, dry or wet, previous feed regime, condition ect ect .....) - yes, certainly - that is the most likely explination.

In Thailand the consequences of an "unbalanced diet" are so much more pronounced because the metabolism of dairy cattle is so much slower (result of climate - humidty & temp).

You have highlighted what I consider to be the 2 most important considerations when it comes to the use of and incorporation of urea into an existing diet, or its use as a protien source substitute.

The whole ration needs to be looked at in terms of the individual components that it is made up of at the time urea is added.

For example: if urea is added to replace or increase the protein component of any of the exsisting ration components, the TDN and DM of that ration needs to be understood prior to the addition of the urea - in other words - if something that was in the ration is now not been used and is been replaced with urea, then the ration TDN & DM content of that ration should be known both before whatever it is has been taken out, or is no longer there, as well as what that componeent now not there, but before the urea is added.

That is the only way to make an accurate comparison. To know TDN & DM either only before, or only after, will not be sufficient to accurately adjust the ration for the addition of urea. Both before & after (but before the urea is added) needs to be known or understood.

In simple terms understanding as I do how most Thai dairy farms are run and operated, it would be fair to say that the addition of any irea to a ration should be accompanied with a proportionate increase in DM and TDN intake. That could be as simple as replacing straw (rice of otherwise) with a fresher forage base, such as fresh grass, fresh maize - anything really so long as it increases the TDN (and DM). Then the benfits of the added urea will be realised - which if I understand you correctly, is exactly what you noticed.

Trust this helps, but am happy to add to it in any way you want.

Tim

[RamdomChances]

Trust this helps, but am happy to add to it in any way you want.

You could expand a bit on what you mean by TDN if you want, just to clarify, has it got anything with the energy level of the food, some foods such as cassava and molassas are not very high in protien but high in energy (I assume carb's ? although some foods could get their energy from fat I suppose)

[teletiger]

RC,

did you include molassas in your fang mak?

Regards

edit....TDN total dietry nutrient (or digestible)

Edited October 31, 2006 by teletiger

[RamdomChances]

did you include molassas in your fang mak?

No mate, I think if you are going to do that you'd just sprinkle/pour it on after, some people use it that way with straight Fang just to give it a bit of a boost and get the cows to eat more of it.

TDN total dietry nutrient (or digestible)

Yea I know what the abriviation stands for, but what exactly does it include.....don't tell me "all the nutrients" Edited October 31, 2006 by RamdomChances

[Maizefarmer]

RDC

Total Digestible Nutrient (TDN)

Its not an easy one – but I’ll try me best to put this all into a useable and practical context.

Everything a cow eats has some or other nutrient content. It may be very little and so small as to be immeasurable – but its there somewhere.

The amount of energy that a cow is able to extract from whatever that food is, is called Digestible Nutrient – note: this could, and often is, diffirent from the amount of nutrient in the food – it is specifically what the cows rumen and digestive tract is able to extract. As a side note you may recall in one of my earlier postings I made a point about protein intake in which I highlighted the importance of the type of protein that was been feed to the animal, as not all proteins are absorbed in the same way, and just because a cow is eating the stuff is no assurance its digestive tract is extracting protein from the food. The same thing applies to nutrients.

In the case of processed foods that are purchased in bags or some other type of container, there should be a figure on it somewhere that is preceeded or followed by the letters TDN

This figure is the amount of nutrient in the processed food that the cow will be able to extract from that ration.

It will be expressed as an overall percentage of what is in the container or bag, or it could be expressed as a percentage of the animals daily requirement per a particular amount (e.g. X% per Y grams) per day.

If it is not there, then get hold of the manufacturer and ask them what it is. They will know – and if they don’t be highly suspect about the quality of what you are paying for.

In the case of fresh and ensiled forages, straws and hys, a bit of research on the internet will give you those figures, and you will excuse me if I leave that side of it to you to research. Take note of whether the TDN figure you find on the internet for a particular type of forage or fresh food, is given for that food as a percentage of the over all daily requirement of the cow, or as a percentage per unit volume or weight of food.

The question is now: what are the TDN requirements for your cow or cows. This figure will vary depending on the age of the cow, the weight of the cow, is it dry or wet, is it pregnant …. and all the other factors that determine what a paritcualr cow requires in the way of energy.

Once you have the TDN figures for the foods you are feeding your cows (both fresh and processed) you take them and use them against the respective cows, taking into consideration the various factors that influence that particular animals requirement (e.g. age, weight, lactation cycle, dry or wet, pregnant or not ect ect ....).

You are now able to reference that against what the cow is actually eating (not what it is been feed but what it is actually eating). From that you can work out pretty accurately what will need to be adjusted should you wish to introduce something like urea in to the ration.

Now this all sounds a lot of work and very daunting, but I assure you if you make the effort to do it initially with say 2 or 3 cows, and you use the results to tailor or adjust the diet specifically for just those 2 or 3 cows to start with, you will be so pleased with the results (and I assure you – you will see at least a 10 – 15% increase in milk yield), you will want to do it for all the cows.

Come back for more - I'm only to happy to help if I can

Tim

Edited October 31, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[RamdomChances]

Ok thanks Tim I'll give it a go, any problems I have I'll get back to you. I've seen lots of referances to it

As a side note you may recall in one of my earlier postings I made a point about protein intake in which I highlighted the importance of the type of protein that was been feed to the animal, as not all proteins are absorbed in the same way

Yea I remember, I've been looking for that, If you (or anyone else) happen to come across it can you put the link in here, I thinkits relevent.

[RamdomChances]

This is the Protien stuff, I think it's very relevent to this discusion so I'll post it again here.

Do you understand the difference between DIP protein and UIP protein, and the role DIP’s versus UIP’s play in milk yield of lactating cows?

From a DIP point of view you are correct in describing fang and cassava has having similar protein content (DIP), but from a UIP point of view the two are very different – I must disagree with you when you describe the difference as “academic”. It is far from academic.

The one is avalible straight from the rumen for the cow to use, the other requires microbial breakdown in the rumen before the cow can use it.

It is generally accepted that DIP can only supply roughly 7% - 8% of total CP requirements. So if you have a cow been fed loads of commercial concentrate which for arguments sake is 25, 30 or even 50%, it could be a complete waste of time (and money – the big issue with all dairy farms in Thailand if you consider how tight argins are) if there is a low DIP in the feed/concentrate. To enable the cow to benefit from that extra protein content or for it to be able to increase its total crude protein intake it needs to have its DIP intake increased so the rumen can use all the UIP and CP. In the case of lactating cows (in my experience in Thailand – and I say my experiance because someone is going to get on the internet and say they are in such and such place and they only use X amount) you should be ensuring that at least 45% - 50% of total CP intake is made up from DIP – which can come from Cassava/cassava chips (ie. fresh or dried) but it will not come from a diet of rice straw.

Brewery dreggs/mash/hopps are also an excellent alternative/compliment to livestock feeds - but most of what comes out of Thai breweries goes striaght to the CP group - who long time back relasied the benefit and setup contracts with Thai brewers. They use it in the production of the livestock feeds the sell commercially to chicken, cattle and pig farmers. It all goes to the CP feedmill on the left hand side of the road just past saraburi heading towards Bangkok.

We've all missed the boat on that one...................

Hope that helps.

Tim

TT

I have to tread real careful here before I put my foot in my mouth.

My statement(s) on this subject are based on knowledge and experience – not on Google searches which I fear may be my undoing. However lets, run through this point by point and reply to the points you raise. As I have said before, if I am going to make a statement, if challenged on the accuracy of it I need to reply – or shut up in the first place.

About the abbreviations – I should have at least stated what they mean:

A cows digestive system sees "protein" as DIP (degradable Intake Protein) which is deal't with in the rumen, and UIP (Undegradable Intake Protein) which is deal't with in the small intestine.

Actually that’s an over simplification over the process – it is actually fed on in the ruman by microbes creating ammonia. The portion of DIP that is not used by the microbes in the ruman will degrade into amino acid(s) which will pass through to the small intestine and be absorbed there. At this stage it becomes UIP

Here goes:

Both proteins are the sum of the CP (crude protein) of any given feed

Yes and No – it depends what you are feeding. In the case of fang or fang mak and cassava it would be true to say the sum total would be from what the cow was feeding on.

In the case of commercial concentrate this would not be true, as in this case the protein is been fed as/or in its UIP form, it is not the product of microbial action in the rumen.

We are talking about rumen degradable and undegradable (bypass) protein?

Correct.

For a cow to ingest 400gms of protein (of any type) she will have to eat 11 kilos of cassava chips, presuming 4% protein and 90% dry matter.

In theory assuming the mathamatics is correct that would be true. However, because a cow is consuming 11 kilos of cassava chips, would not automatically mean it would ingest 400grams of protein (of any type). The actual amount absorbed would be dependant on the balance between UIP and DIP- and it was this point TT, that I was trying to convey in my posting.

Fang or Mak will be broken down in the rumen much more so than cassava – leaving little for UIP to be moved on to the small intenstine for conversion to amino acid.

Conversly, a cassava only diet can potentialy “overload” the animal with ammonia in the rumen, which when absorbed from the rumen into the blood stream will reduce milk production and stress the liver – which job it is to extract the excess rumen ammonia from the blood and convert it to urea for excretion in the urine.

To take it a step further, the importance of amino acids in cattle are primarily for growth through a hormone known as “bovine somatotropin”.

There are about 180 a/acids to this hormone, and I mention the amount not to try and be a “clever boy” (and that figure is probably off a bit one way or the other), but because - and here the whole relivanceto this subject is: Bingo - they are the same amino acids which stimulate milk production.

In summary: with the reduced UIP which the small intestine will get from a fang/fang mak diet only, as opposed to a diet with cassava added, there will be less amino acid avalibility for the cow - resulting in less growth and/or less milk production.

Growth has nothing to do with this note but I add it as in Thailand it is a significant manisfestation of low UIP and amino acid avalibility.

I have tried to keep it simple so all can get some sense out of it.

Tim

This is where the discusion starts on the other thread

Farming In Isaan Post 75

Edited October 31, 2006 by RamdomChances

[teletiger]

I suppose what I need (and a few others I suspect ) is to get past all the technical stuff and have someone come up with a few recipies of what a complete feed should contain, given the constraints of what is available around us at this time of the year. Experimenting can be expensive.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

And that is not something I am willing to do TT as a general contribution.

However if you are seriosuly interested I can draw up a questionaire with about 50 - 100 questions on it and send it to those who are interested.

Using those answers you provide I will be more than happy to share with you what I think under your cirumstances is or are the best options.

Why?

Because in my opinion what is a vaible fees solution for you may not be , or will not be the best solution for someone else.

There aare so many fatcrs that have to be considered - that unless al those factors are evidensed in equal amounts amongnst all of us - what is going to be my best option for feed is highly unlikely to be your best option for feed as well.

Tim