Springsteen cancels show because of North Carolina law

[lostboy]

This might be of interest to some:

Target: Use the bathroom of your 'gender identity' identity'

Who will undoubtedly be interested are the shareholders of Target stock, because many groups will likely be organizing a boycott of Target stores. If the boycott catches on (and none of us know if it will or not), it will be interesting to watch what happens.

What boycott? There is none. There will be none except from the looney fringe like One Millions Moms Iactually just a few dozen now because all their funding dried up after the SCOTUS marriage equality decision) and similar.

In fact Target being an 'early mover' on this issue will increase its sales by supporters of equality. The Shareholders know this and this is why the Board of Directors who represent the shareholders support this decision.

There will be few reports of anything because this is the new normal. Nothing out of the ordinary. Just people going about their business and not trying to take away the rights of fellow citizens. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the 'backlash'.

[Chicog]

Hasbeen musicians and singers cannot resurrect their faded careers by latching on to current political controversies. A number of years ago an apt observer coined SHUT UP AND SING .... which sums up the then clumsy political intervention by decades old singers and groups.. NOT ONE FAN paid for a ticket to any concert held by these do-gooders went to pay for their compulsion to tell citizens of one U.S. State or another how to conduct their creation of laws... Celebrities have ZERO Political Acumen... no more than the average concert fan. Some of these bright stars never even completed high school ... So SHUT UP AND SING Springsteen... as you have no more insight into any political issue or event that an average 8 grader in America. You just have a platform because you were ONCE popular on the music scene. The only thing you do is piss off many thousands of Americas who just wish you would SHUT UP AND SING ...

Clearly these musicians are willing to forgo the revenue lost from outraged christians not attending their concerts.

But like I said, there are lots of good christian acts out there that they can go and watch to wash away their sins.

[Jingthing]

Trump "comes out" against the North Carolina anti-GLBT bigot law:

Donald Trump: Let Trans People Use Bathrooms That Match Their Identity

http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/4/21/donald-trump-let-trans-people-use-bathrooms-match-their-identity

That certainly does differentiate him a bit from anti-GLBT civil rights EXTREMIST, creepy Cruz.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The "good people" of North Carolina made a big BOO BOO passing their bigot law:

[Publicus]

There are now almost no commercial activities that any private citizen can do in America that does not require some kind of license or permit from a State Authority (and in The State not A State). Irrespective of the extent of reach government has into the activities of private businesses and corporations, the precedent is set that private businesses are not free or have no right to do what they want.

If denying service to a minority places that business in conflict with their licensing provisions or other legislative instruments, then such businesses must be penalised. The role of the government is to ensure a level playing field and non discrimination for all its citizent. Debt Management is a strategy, not an objective or a public 'value'.

I have never heard of any baker that has refused to bake a cake for gay people. They have rejected the theme of the cake, but they will still bake a cake for gay people.

I wonder what would happen if hardcore Christians went to gay bakeries and asked for cakes that had some anti-gay Bblical quote on it?

I wonder if any baker would be required to bake a cake for the American Nazi Party (yes, one exists) with evil Nazi slogans on it?

Religion and its 5000 year old planet earth are at the core of the problem of writing such laws. The law relates directly to a religious freedom act debacle which is another turkey from its moment of inception at the turkey farm that produced it.

It is OTT but not unexpected for the reactionary right to try to introduce Nazis to the discussion as comparable to transgender persons.

The more extreme the right gets the more it exposes its bankruptcy.

[JDGRUEN]

This controversy has hardly even started. People in America do not want to change societal norms that have existed since well before the nation was founded to accommodate less than 1% of the population that destroys the privacy rights of the 99%. This controversy goes well beyond being fueled by the Christian Religion. The actions by retread celebrates only increases the resolve of the actual citizen voters in each state to push for more legislation. The legislation will be taken up by state after state until the celebrates will eventually have to boycott 30 states and mores . At that point if they keep their vows they may have to retire or focus their concerts where they already continue to perform such as in Middle Eastern countries were arrest, stoning and outright killing of gays and transvestites is a monthly occurrence. Their moral outrage does not seem to extend outside the USA.

[Boon Mee]

As my old grannie used to say, this is a tempest in a teapot.

These people who are outraged re mixed-use bathrooms should get out more and visit places like Japan or mebe even Thailand?

[stevenl]

This controversy has hardly even started. People in America do not want to change societal norms that have existed since well before the nation was founded to accommodate less than 1% of the population that destroys the privacy rights of the 99%. This controversy goes well beyond being fueled by the Christian Religion. The actions by retread celebrates only increases the resolve of the actual citizen voters in each state to push for more legislation. The legislation will be taken up by state after state until the celebrates will eventually have to boycott 30 states and mores . At that point if they keep their vows they may have to retire or focus their concerts where they already continue to perform such as in Middle Eastern countries were arrest, stoning and outright killing of gays and transvestites is a monthly occurrence. Their moral outrage does not seem to extend outside the USA.

Thanks for sharing your hopes. Now can we get back yo real life please.

[lostboy]

This controversy has hardly even started. People in America do not want to change societal norms that have existed since well before the nation was founded to accommodate less than 1% of the population that destroys the privacy rights of the 99%. This controversy goes well beyond being fueled by the Christian Religion. The actions by retread celebrates only increases the resolve of the actual citizen voters in each state to push for more legislation. The legislation will be taken up by state after state until the celebrates will eventually have to boycott 30 states and mores . At that point if they keep their vows they may have to retire or focus their concerts where they already continue to perform such as in Middle Eastern countries were arrest, stoning and outright killing of gays and transvestites is a monthly occurrence. Their moral outrage does not seem to extend outside the USA.

It seems to me that a rationale that is based on the idea that the discrimination has been going on for a long time so it should continue and that only a small fraction of the population is affected is not really the basis for a credible argument against change.

Physically handicapped people demanded access to public facilities and now nobody thinks twice about wheelchair ramps or separate restrooms for them. Children with autism or other challenges are provided extra resources to accommodate their special education needs. Advanced societies consciously make provisions for minorities all the time. Just because a minority is a minority does not diminish their right to equality and dignity.

This fantasy civil reaction against LGBT equality that you keep going on about - well, this is not how history works. Surprising for someone who fetishises select parts of the US Constitution. The process for LGBT equality is almost concluded. The change has happened at lightening speed. In my opinion, contributing factors were the coming out of LGBT people until it was obvious that almost everyone knew or knows an LGBT person as a person not as a symbol of hate and discrimination and the next generation of citizens overwhelmingly flatly embrace inclusiveness irrespective of race, sexual orientation or gender identity.

There will be no boycotts by the fringe right. The existing anti LGBT laws will be overturned on Constitutional grounds. And live for we minorities will continue without the harassment and haranguing of old straight white male reactionaries.

[chuckd]

Lostboy:

Just curious when were you last in the US?

[CousinEddie]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

[JDGRUEN]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

You witnessed this of course -- took photos I am sure... Or did you hear about the accusation on some left wing blog? I suppose you have some relatively recent - like in last decade reputable news articles to back up your claim - don't young. If you can produce some real evidence of your accusation I will be glad to stand corrected...

[lostboy]

Lostboy:

Just curious when were you last in the US?

Well chuckd, you wouldn't be wanting to get information to use against me would you?

July 2014 was my last visit. I had been going there annually since 2008 for my work with a Thai agency and dealt mainly with government officials, regulators and energy industry corporates. The 2014 visit included meetings with gas industry people in Dallas, Houston and Freeport. I hadn't been to Texas since 1981 so that was fun. We finished up in Boston when the General sent a message overnight ordering everyone back to Bangkok for dismissal. So that was also fun. We cancelled all the meetings and went shopping at Wrentham Outlet Mall.

My current work still engages me with government officials and bankers in the US, predominantly Washington DC.

I have met a number of actual Republicans. I knew this because they were appointed by their Party to various government Commissions but I did not socialise with them beyond official receptions. I only ever socialised with an self admitted Republican in Afghanistan when I visited the US Embassy but he was a self declared "California Republican" and was pro decriminalisation of marijuana and not really into the other culture wars.

Interestingly, I catch up with a young Afghan American in Kabul. He is an MBA working for ISAF and I meet him because ISAF has the best coffee shop in Kabul. He was saying that most of the Afghans he knows going to the US now, don't go to the 2 main communities in California and Washington DC but to Texas. They do this because all the Americans they knew from Afghanistan come from Texas so they think that they will be well received there!

Anyway, this is all very much off topic. I guess you are angling for some information so you can say that I have no idea about what is going on in America at the moment. Firstly, it is necessary for my career/vocation to maintain close links with certain agencies in the US and, secondly, my assessment of the response to issues such as the LGBT debate comes from engagement with younger people both professionally and personally. They just absolutely reject the whole minority discrimination thing. You may call them naive or inexperienced or whatever but this is a cultural sea change as big as the sexual liberation of your generation in the 60's (that's if you were on the right side of history back then with the bra burning, LSD and Woodstock).

Anyway, make of the above what you will. I am sure there will be some zinger bouncing back or some humbly presented outrageous news article from the Right Wing machine.

[lostboy]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

You witnessed this of course -- took photos I am sure... Or did you hear about the accusation on some left wing blog? I suppose you have some relatively recent - like in last decade reputable news articles to back up your claim - don't young. If you can produce some real evidence of your accusation I will be glad to stand corrected...

I can't contribute to this I'm sorry Cousin Eddie. I only ever went to Arby's when I went below the Mason-Dixon line. Wouldn't eat what they call food there of course, just go to use the restrooms. Plenty of African Americans and the special sort of White Male in those places.

Didn't really see any other Queers. Well, at least not in the open. Certainly no trans people.

Edited April 22, 2016 by lostboy

[CousinEddie]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

You witnessed this of course -- took photos I am sure... Or did you hear about the accusation on some left wing blog? I suppose you have some relatively recent - like in last decade reputable news articles to back up your claim - don't young. If you can produce some real evidence of your accusation I will be glad to stand corrected...

Personal experiences of my black friend, in a band that travels thru the area.

[JDGRUEN]

This controversy has hardly even started. People in America do not want to change societal norms that have existed since well before the nation was founded to accommodate less than 1% of the population that destroys the privacy rights of the 99%. This controversy goes well beyond being fueled by the Christian Religion. The actions by retread celebrates only increases the resolve of the actual citizen voters in each state to push for more legislation. The legislation will be taken up by state after state until the celebrates will eventually have to boycott 30 states and mores . At that point if they keep their vows they may have to retire or focus their concerts where they already continue to perform such as in Middle Eastern countries were arrest, stoning and outright killing of gays and transvestites is a monthly occurrence. Their moral outrage does not seem to extend outside the USA.

It seems to me that a rationale that is based on the idea that the discrimination has been going on for a long time so it should continue and that only a small fraction of the population is affected is not really the basis for a credible argument against change.

Physically handicapped people demanded access to public facilities and now nobody thinks twice about wheelchair ramps or separate restrooms for them. Children with autism or other challenges are provided extra resources to accommodate their special education needs. Advanced societies consciously make provisions for minorities all the time. Just because a minority is a minority does not diminish their right to equality and dignity.

This fantasy civil reaction against LGBT equality that you keep going on about - well, this is not how history works. Surprising for someone who fetishises select parts of the US Constitution. The process for LGBT equality is almost concluded. The change has happened at lightening speed. In my opinion, contributing factors were the coming out of LGBT people until it was obvious that almost everyone knew or knows an LGBT person as a person not as a symbol of hate and discrimination and the next generation of citizens overwhelmingly flatly embrace inclusiveness irrespective of race, sexual orientation or gender identity.

There will be no boycotts by the fringe right. The existing anti LGBT laws will be overturned on Constitutional grounds. And live for we minorities will continue without the harassment and haranguing of old straight white male reactionaries.

No my words do not - you just want to twist words and create a false meaning to my post. Less that 1% just does not rise to the occasion to change societal norms... There is not a Constitutional right for someone born of one sex to change their minds about their identity (the gender confused) then demand access to public restrooms of a gender that they actually are not. A good portion of the people wanting to do this are not true trans-gendered people. Rather there are more who are just transvestites taking advantage of the controversy (all of their male equipment is still intact under the skirt) Others are perverts who just want to dress up like women to get access to little girls or even little boys. The big problem with this issue - is it is the Person who says and not even out loud of course that they are are trans-gendered and it can be anyone - trans-gendered - transvestite or pervert ... There is not going to be any litmus test as to who goes in a restroom under wide open laws to protect trans-gendered people. Fathers and Mothers - husbands and wives (VOTERS) want to protect their children from the perverts who will abuse wide open laws to molest and rape women and children. If you think the 99% of Americans are going to give up the right of privacy and protection to grant less than 1% special privileges -- then you live on another planet.

[pedro01]

This controversy has hardly even started. People in America do not want to change societal norms that have existed since well before the nation was founded to accommodate less than 1% of the population that destroys the privacy rights of the 99%. This controversy goes well beyond being fueled by the Christian Religion. The actions by retread celebrates only increases the resolve of the actual citizen voters in each state to push for more legislation. The legislation will be taken up by state after state until the celebrates will eventually have to boycott 30 states and mores . At that point if they keep their vows they may have to retire or focus their concerts where they already continue to perform such as in Middle Eastern countries were arrest, stoning and outright killing of gays and transvestites is a monthly occurrence. Their moral outrage does not seem to extend outside the USA.

It seems to me that a rationale that is based on the idea that the discrimination has been going on for a long time so it should continue and that only a small fraction of the population is affected is not really the basis for a credible argument against change.

Physically handicapped people demanded access to public facilities and now nobody thinks twice about wheelchair ramps or separate restrooms for them. Children with autism or other challenges are provided extra resources to accommodate their special education needs. Advanced societies consciously make provisions for minorities all the time. Just because a minority is a minority does not diminish their right to equality and dignity.

This fantasy civil reaction against LGBT equality that you keep going on about - well, this is not how history works. Surprising for someone who fetishises select parts of the US Constitution. The process for LGBT equality is almost concluded. The change has happened at lightening speed. In my opinion, contributing factors were the coming out of LGBT people until it was obvious that almost everyone knew or knows an LGBT person as a person not as a symbol of hate and discrimination and the next generation of citizens overwhelmingly flatly embrace inclusiveness irrespective of race, sexual orientation or gender identity.

There will be no boycotts by the fringe right. The existing anti LGBT laws will be overturned on Constitutional grounds. And live for we minorities will continue without the harassment and haranguing of old straight white male reactionaries.

Asking someone to use a toilet based on their sex is not discrimination.

Transgenders are suffering from a mental disorder. They need treatment, not toilet access. What next, giving people that think they are locomotives their own train station?

The LGBT community will push and push and push until there is an inevitable backlash.

Edited April 22, 2016 by pedro01

[JDGRUEN]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

You witnessed this of course -- took photos I am sure... Or did you hear about the accusation on some left wing blog? I suppose you have some relatively recent - like in last decade reputable news articles to back up your claim - don't young. If you can produce some real evidence of your accusation I will be glad to stand corrected...

Personal experiences of my black friend, in a band that travels thru the area.

Well your undocumented anecdote is not believable ... I toured the South East U.S. in 2013 in my motor home using mostly back road ... 4000 miles of going through Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia - North and South Carolina and Alabama ... going into truck stops, cafes, service stations,etc. I never saw one incident as you describe. In fact I saw the reverse ... blacks and white integrating in public venues.

[thaihome]

This might be of interest to some:

Target: Use the bathroom of your 'gender identity' identity'

Who will undoubtedly be interested are the shareholders of Target stock, because many groups will likely be organizing a boycott of Target stores. If the boycott catches on (and none of us know if it will or not), it will be interesting to watch what happens.

.....or they can just run over to 'Chick Fil A' and use their toilets.

Not on Sundays... ?

TH

Edited April 22, 2016 by thaihome

[pedro01]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

You witnessed this of course -- took photos I am sure... Or did you hear about the accusation on some left wing blog? I suppose you have some relatively recent - like in last decade reputable news articles to back up your claim - don't young. If you can produce some real evidence of your accusation I will be glad to stand corrected...

Personal experiences of my black friend, in a band that travels thru the area.

Well your undocumented anecdote is not believable ... I toured the South East U.S. in 2013 in my motor home using mostly back road ... 4000 miles of going through Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia - North and South Carolina and Alabama ... going into truck stops, cafes, service stations,etc. I never saw one incident as you describe. In fact I saw the reverse ... blacks and white integrating in public venues.

I lived in North Carolina and traveled throughout too and never once came across segregation.

I did meet some guys from Alabama who were alarmingly racist though.

[chuckd]

Lostboy:

Just curious when were you last in the US?

Well chuckd, you wouldn't be wanting to get information to use against me would you?

July 2014 was my last visit. I had been going there annually since 2008 for my work with a Thai agency and dealt mainly with government officials, regulators and energy industry corporates. The 2014 visit included meetings with gas industry people in Dallas, Houston and Freeport. I hadn't been to Texas since 1981 so that was fun. We finished up in Boston when the General sent a message overnight ordering everyone back to Bangkok for dismissal. So that was also fun. We cancelled all the meetings and went shopping at Wrentham Outlet Mall.

My current work still engages me with government officials and bankers in the US, predominantly Washington DC.

I have met a number of actual Republicans. I knew this because they were appointed by their Party to various government Commissions but I did not socialise with them beyond official receptions. I only ever socialised with an self admitted Republican in Afghanistan when I visited the US Embassy but he was a self declared "California Republican" and was pro decriminalisation of marijuana and not really into the other culture wars.

Interestingly, I catch up with a young Afghan American in Kabul. He is an MBA working for ISAF and I meet him because ISAF has the best coffee shop in Kabul. He was saying that most of the Afghans he knows going to the US now, don't go to the 2 main communities in California and Washington DC but to Texas. They do this because all the Americans they knew from Afghanistan come from Texas so they think that they will be well received there!

Anyway, this is all very much off topic. I guess you are angling for some information so you can say that I have no idea about what is going on in America at the moment. Firstly, it is necessary for my career/vocation to maintain close links with certain agencies in the US and, secondly, my assessment of the response to issues such as the LGBT debate comes from engagement with younger people both professionally and personally. They just absolutely reject the whole minority discrimination thing. You may call them naive or inexperienced or whatever but this is a cultural sea change as big as the sexual liberation of your generation in the 60's (that's if you were on the right side of history back then with the bra burning, LSD and Woodstock).

Anyway, make of the above what you will. I am sure there will be some zinger bouncing back or some humbly presented outrageous news article from the Right Wing machine.

Nope. Just curious how this bathroom issue has affected you personally. You seem incredibly interested about what's happening in MS and NC so curiosity got the better of me.

Which toilet do you use in Afghanistan?

[up-country_sinclair]

Asking someone to use a toilet based on their sex is not discrimination.

No, of course it is not discrimination. Attempts to convince the public otherwise is nothing more than diversionary propaganda. They're playing themselves up as the helpless victims of oppression when in fact, it is they who are attempting to force their belief system on everyone else.

The North Carolina law provided that anyone of any "identity" could use single stall toilets. Let me type if again: anyone of any "identity". But no, they need to force their way into the women's restrooms that our wives and daughters use. And that just might be why they don't understand. More often than not, they don't have wives and daughters.

It's a very small (but vocal) minority trying to impose their beliefs on the majority. I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist, so I don't know if transgender is mental disorder, but I do know that it is a perversion of societal norms that affects less 1% of the population.

Regarding the inevitable backlash, I think you're right. This is classic case of overreach and common sense will prevail and put these people back in their place. And not just in North Carolina. I think people are going to make a stand across the country.

Edited April 22, 2016 by up-country_sinclair

[CousinEddie]

In the Carolinas there are many, many restaurants and bars where blacks still cant go into with their white friends. Still. This is not just racism... it is race hatred.

You witnessed this of course -- took photos I am sure... Or did you hear about the accusation on some left wing blog? I suppose you have some relatively recent - like in last decade reputable news articles to back up your claim - don't young. If you can produce some real evidence of your accusation I will be glad to stand corrected...

Personal experiences of my black friend, in a band that travels thru the area.

Well your undocumented anecdote is not believable ... I toured the South East U.S. in 2013 in my motor home using mostly back road ... 4000 miles of going through Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia - North and South Carolina and Alabama ... going into truck stops, cafes, service stations,etc. I never saw one incident as you describe. In fact I saw the reverse ... blacks and white integrating in public venues.

Your opinion is garbage.

[Chicog]

Asking someone to use a toilet based on their sex is not discrimination.

No, of course it is not discrimination. Attempts to convince the public otherwise is nothing more than diversionary propaganda. They're playing themselves up as the helpless victims of oppression when in fact, it is they who are attempting to force their belief system on everyone else.

The North Carolina law provided that anyone of any "identity" could use single stall toilets. Let me type if again: anyone of any "identity". But no, they need to force their way into the women's restrooms that our wives and daughters use. And that just might be why they don't understand. More often than not, they don't have wives and daughters.

I notice that you continue to avoid the issue of trans men being FORCED to use ladies toilets.

Until you do that, you are simply blowing smoke.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Chicog

[up-country_sinclair]

I notice that you continue to avoid the issue of trans men being FORCED to use ladies toilets.

My understanding is that the North Carolina law provides for anyone of any "identity" to use single stall restrooms. They can use these restrooms whenever they like.

By the way, it is accepted that these "transgenders" make up less than 1% of the population. Let assume that women "identifying" as men make up 1/2 of the "transgender' population (although I really doubt this). That's 1/2 of 1% forcing its beliefs on everyone else.

This is the clearest example of overreach in agenda driven politics that I've seen in quite some time.

[lostboy]

Lostboy:

Just curious when were you last in the US?

Well chuckd, you wouldn't be wanting to get information to use against me would you?

July 2014 was my last visit. I had been going there annually since 2008 for my work with a Thai agency and dealt mainly with government officials, regulators and energy industry corporates. The 2014 visit included meetings with gas industry people in Dallas, Houston and Freeport. I hadn't been to Texas since 1981 so that was fun. We finished up in Boston when the General sent a message overnight ordering everyone back to Bangkok for dismissal. So that was also fun. We cancelled all the meetings and went shopping at Wrentham Outlet Mall.

My current work still engages me with government officials and bankers in the US, predominantly Washington DC.

I have met a number of actual Republicans. I knew this because they were appointed by their Party to various government Commissions but I did not socialise with them beyond official receptions. I only ever socialised with an self admitted Republican in Afghanistan when I visited the US Embassy but he was a self declared "California Republican" and was pro decriminalisation of marijuana and not really into the other culture wars.

Interestingly, I catch up with a young Afghan American in Kabul. He is an MBA working for ISAF and I meet him because ISAF has the best coffee shop in Kabul. He was saying that most of the Afghans he knows going to the US now, don't go to the 2 main communities in California and Washington DC but to Texas. They do this because all the Americans they knew from Afghanistan come from Texas so they think that they will be well received there!

Anyway, this is all very much off topic. I guess you are angling for some information so you can say that I have no idea about what is going on in America at the moment. Firstly, it is necessary for my career/vocation to maintain close links with certain agencies in the US and, secondly, my assessment of the response to issues such as the LGBT debate comes from engagement with younger people both professionally and personally. They just absolutely reject the whole minority discrimination thing. You may call them naive or inexperienced or whatever but this is a cultural sea change as big as the sexual liberation of your generation in the 60's (that's if you were on the right side of history back then with the bra burning, LSD and Woodstock).

Anyway, make of the above what you will. I am sure there will be some zinger bouncing back or some humbly presented outrageous news article from the Right Wing machine.

Nope. Just curious how this bathroom issue has affected you personally. You seem incredibly interested about what's happening in MS and NC so curiosity got the better of me.

Which toilet do you use in Afghanistan?

Why would not a gay man be interested in religious groups pushing states to pass laws that discriminate against LGBT people? I am surprised you asked.

Last time I visited the US Embassy, I used the toilet there. It is a single occupancy, unisex and handicapped access facility. Now you can go on about the Lefty State Department types. The toilets in the government offices are best avoided. They are like toilets in Vietnam and China were in the late 80's, early 90's.

[Chicog]

I notice that you continue to avoid the issue of trans men being FORCED to use ladies toilets.

My understanding is that the North Carolina law provides for anyone of any "identity" to use single stall restrooms. They can use these restrooms whenever they like.

By the way, it is accepted that these "transgenders" make up less than 1% of the population. Let assume that women "identifying" as men make up 1/2 of the "transgender' population (although I really doubt this). That's 1/2 of 1% forcing its beliefs on everyone else.

This is the clearest example of overreach in agenda driven politics that I've seen in quite some time.

Really?

Because what I see is a bunch of right wing god botherers trying to impose their beliefs on a particular segment of the population.

For heaven's sake, even Trump doesn't agree with it!

“I had a feeling that question was going to come up. North Carolina did something that was very strong, and they are paying a big price and there’s a lot of problems. One of the best answers I heard was from a commentator yesterday, saying ‘leave it the way it is. There have been very few problems.’ North Carolina, what they are going through with all of the business that’s leaving and the strife– and that’s on both sides. You leave it the way it is. There have been very few complaints they way it is. People go, they use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate, there has been so little trouble, and the problem with what happened in North Carolina is the strife and the economic punishment they’re taking.”

Why don't you just admit that it's a stupid law that is not only unnecessary but also discriminatory?

Added: Or at least add a law that forbids Catholic priests being alone in a toilet with children? At least that has evidence to back it up.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Chicog

[Jingthing]

Yes, the anti-GLBT bigot agenda focuses on the red herring bathroom hysteria and IGNORING the general anti-GLBT civil rights provisions in the North Carolina law. They don't want to talk about that. Easier to overblow hysteria about "men" in women's bathrooms. They also don't care one iota about the safety issues for transgender people (male to female or female to male) who are forced under these hate laws to be under threat of violence for entering bathrooms where they obviously don't fit, appearance-wise. They are also not interested in the massively high rate of violence, including murder targeted at transgender Americans.

Either you're for the N.C. bigot law or you're against it. IF you're for it, you're for general anti-GLBT civil rights legislation, MUCH wider than the narrow transgender bathroom issue.

[lostboy]

This controversy has hardly even started. People in America do not want to change societal norms that have existed since well before the nation was founded to accommodate less than 1% of the population that destroys the privacy rights of the 99%. This controversy goes well beyond being fueled by the Christian Religion. The actions by retread celebrates only increases the resolve of the actual citizen voters in each state to push for more legislation. The legislation will be taken up by state after state until the celebrates will eventually have to boycott 30 states and mores . At that point if they keep their vows they may have to retire or focus their concerts where they already continue to perform such as in Middle Eastern countries were arrest, stoning and outright killing of gays and transvestites is a monthly occurrence. Their moral outrage does not seem to extend outside the USA.

It seems to me that a rationale that is based on the idea that the discrimination has been going on for a long time so it should continue and that only a small fraction of the population is affected is not really the basis for a credible argument against change.

Physically handicapped people demanded access to public facilities and now nobody thinks twice about wheelchair ramps or separate restrooms for them. Children with autism or other challenges are provided extra resources to accommodate their special education needs. Advanced societies consciously make provisions for minorities all the time. Just because a minority is a minority does not diminish their right to equality and dignity.

This fantasy civil reaction against LGBT equality that you keep going on about - well, this is not how history works. Surprising for someone who fetishises select parts of the US Constitution. The process for LGBT equality is almost concluded. The change has happened at lightening speed. In my opinion, contributing factors were the coming out of LGBT people until it was obvious that almost everyone knew or knows an LGBT person as a person not as a symbol of hate and discrimination and the next generation of citizens overwhelmingly flatly embrace inclusiveness irrespective of race, sexual orientation or gender identity.

There will be no boycotts by the fringe right. The existing anti LGBT laws will be overturned on Constitutional grounds. And live for we minorities will continue without the harassment and haranguing of old straight white male reactionaries.

No my words do not - you just want to twist words and create a false meaning to my post. Less that 1% just does not rise to the occasion to change societal norms... There is not a Constitutional right for someone born of one sex to change their minds about their identity (the gender confused) then demand access to public restrooms of a gender that they actually are not. A good portion of the people wanting to do this are not true trans-gendered people. Rather there are more who are just transvestites taking advantage of the controversy (all of their male equipment is still intact under the skirt) Others are perverts who just want to dress up like women to get access to little girls or even little boys. The big problem with this issue - is it is the Person who says and not even out loud of course that they are are trans-gendered and it can be anyone - trans-gendered - transvestite or pervert ... There is not going to be any litmus test as to who goes in a restroom under wide open laws to protect trans-gendered people. Fathers and Mothers - husbands and wives (VOTERS) want to protect their children from the perverts who will abuse wide open laws to molest and rape women and children. If you think the 99% of Americans are going to give up the right of privacy and protection to grant less than 1% special privileges -- then you live on another planet.

You make a Constitutional argument AGAINST transgender people using public restrooms. You are certainly correct that we occupy completely different planets but I'm afraid that your planet is fast going the way of Krypton. All of your hysterical scare scenarios are just a complete nonsense and your understanding of trans issues equates to that of a 3 year old. I have posted links to the American Psychiatric Association information on LGBT issues. Why not start with actual real information from learned, credentialed and scholarly observers instead of your silliness about transvestites and such.

The Equal Protection Clause is part of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Many view it as the attempt to uphold the professed “all men are created equal” clause written in the Constitution. The Equal protection law implies that no State has the right to deny anyone within jurisdiction equal protection of the law.

http://constitution.laws.com/equal-protection-clause

That is my argument FOR LGBT people to not be subject to discrimination on religious grounds, or any other grounds for that matter.

Your metrics for what rises to the level of changing 'societal norms' is based on what rationale? What defence can you provide that what you claim are societal norms are actually societal norms. Your perception of societal norms, you view on what is or is not acceptable conduct is learned behaviour. It is inculcated into young people by others with cultural biases and prejudices. It does not stand up to an analysis of justice, equality and dignity. The same arguments were used against African Americans, Indigenous Americans, Gays, Lesbians etc. Just pick a minority.

No twisting of words. I took them exactly as you delivered them and reflected them back. It is a common technique. I am certain that you are the type of person who would appreciate the opportunity to learn more about reflective listening from this source http://cultureofempathy.com/projects/Empathy-Movement/References/Reflective-Listening.htm

If you don't like the way your words sound, then maybe it is time to choose other ones.

[up-country_sinclair]

I notice that you continue to avoid the issue of trans men being FORCED to use ladies toilets.

My understanding is that the North Carolina law provides for anyone of any "identity" to use single stall restrooms. They can use these restrooms whenever they like.

By the way, it is accepted that these "transgenders" make up less than 1% of the population. Let assume that women "identifying" as men make up 1/2 of the "transgender' population (although I really doubt this). That's 1/2 of 1% forcing its beliefs on everyone else.

This is the clearest example of overreach in agenda driven politics that I've seen in quite some time.

Really?

Because what I see is a bunch of right wing god botherers trying to impose their beliefs on a particular segment of the population.

For heaven's sake, even Trump doesn't agree with it!

“I had a feeling that question was going to come up. North Carolina did something that was very strong, and they are paying a big price and there’s a lot of problems. One of the best answers I heard was from a commentator yesterday, saying ‘leave it the way it is. There have been very few problems.’ North Carolina, what they are going through with all of the business that’s leaving and the strife– and that’s on both sides. You leave it the way it is. There have been very few complaints they way it is. People go, they use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate, there has been so little trouble, and the problem with what happened in North Carolina is the strife and the economic punishment they’re taking.”

Why don't you just admit that it's a stupid law that is not only unnecessary but also discriminatory?

Added: Or at least add a law that forbids Catholic priests being alone in a toilet with children? At least that has evidence to back it up.

Really.

While that may be what you see, I can state unequivocally that's not who I am. Have you read a single post where I state that I'm even remotely religious or as you disparagingly put it, "a God botherer"? To me this is an absurd overreach by political activists that is completely unnecessary. Single occupancy toilets are open to anyone of any "identity".

I would think that Trump is off topic on this thread, but I don't take anything he says seriously.

I won't admit that it's a stupid law and discriminatory because I don't believe it to be so. You're certainly entitled to disagree. And I can guarantee you that won't try to censor you and deny you that right.

I can't imagine why Catholic priests would be alone in a toilet with children but if you want to propose legislation, please do. In theory I'm not opposed to it.

Edited April 22, 2016 by up-country_sinclair