US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[Publicus]

Gambia's foreign ministry just announced its government's support of the CCP in the SCS dispute against the Permanent Court of Arbitration. http://qz.com/669069/beijing-is-searching-far-and-wide-for-allies-to-back-its-south-china-sea-claims/

So let's see, the countries supporting CCP in its SCS nonsense provocations are: Cambodia, Laos, Brunei, Russia, Zimbabwe, Gambia.

North Korea so far remains silent. South Korea of course announced long ago it supports the finding of the Court.

Any CCPs present or CCP fanboyz who know for sure I've omitted any country should correct the information I have. I'd be grateful to be corrected or updated on any country I may have overlooked that supports the CCP Dictators in their aggressions in the SCS.

Edited to add the following breaking news:

Beijing said it had reached a consensus with Belarus and ­Pakistan – which are not claimant states – that said they respected China's stance on the issue, after separate meetings yesterday with the two nations' foreign ministers on the sidelines of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/29/china-intensifies-lobbying-of-other-nations-ahead-of-south-china-sea-court-ruling.html

Sort of like an 'I'll still respect you in the morning' statement.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Publicus

[ExpatOilWorker]

Gambia's foreign ministry just announced its government's support of the CCP in the SCS dispute against the Permanent Court of Arbitration. http://qz.com/669069/beijing-is-searching-far-and-wide-for-allies-to-back-its-south-china-sea-claims/

So let's see, the countries supporting CCP in its SCS nonsense provocations are: Cambodia, Laos, Brunei, Russia, Zimbabwe, Gambia.

North Korea so far remains silent. South Korea of course announced long ago it supports the finding of the Court.

Any CCPs present or CCP fanboyz who know for sure I've omitted any country should correct the information I have. I'd be grateful to be corrected or updated on any country I may have overlooked that supports the CCP Dictators in their aggressions in the SCS.

Edited to add the following breaking news:

Beijing said it had reached a consensus with Belarus and ­Pakistan – which are not claimant states – that said they respected China's stance on the issue, after separate meetings yesterday with the two nations' foreign ministers on the sidelines of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/29/china-intensifies-lobbying-of-other-nations-ahead-of-south-china-sea-court-ruling.html

Sort of like an 'I'll still respect you in the morning' statement.

I am surprised Brunei is supporting the 9-dash line. Brunei have been producing oil for nearly 90 years and their land based wells are pretty much dry, but they have drilled a few deep water exploration wells back in 2008/09 and long term that is where Brunei will produce their oil and gas from.

[boomerangutang]

Thanks for that link, Publicus. I pulled an excerpt from it,

"Last week Gambia released a statement expressing its support for China’s position. It said that China had “indisputable sovereignty over the South China Sea islands and the adjacent waters” that the court has “no jurisdiction in pronouncing a verdict on maritime boundaries in the South China Sea,” and that the matter ought to be resolved bilaterally. Gambia, which lies on Africa’s west coast and faces the Atlantic Ocean, would seem a rather odd nation to be weighing in on the matter."

There is no doubt that paragraph was written by a Chinese official. Not one iota of doubt. It is exactly the official Chinese line and, before it/he was paid to release it, not one Gambian official knew anything about the South China Sea. Gambia is so small and poor, $1,000 worth of cigarettes could get anyone an official statement about anything. Gambia just lost face in the International community. Who's next? Cape Verde Islands? Samoa? There's probably a well funded section of the Chinese government who's only job is to send low level diplomats to very small principalities - in order to bribe them into toeing the Chinese line - whatever transgression happens to be at the forefront at the moment. St. Kitts and Nevis, brace yourselves, Chinese dressed in nice suits will show up soon with suitcases full of cash, and mouths full of promises. All you have to do is sign the letter they show to you. Can't read it? No problem, it's for a good cause and plus, look at all the lovely high-priced gifts you get for signing. It's a no-brainer, isn't it?

[boomerangutang]

Gambia's foreign ministry just announced its government's support of the CCP in the SCS dispute against the Permanent Court of Arbitration. http://qz.com/669069/beijing-is-searching-far-and-wide-for-allies-to-back-its-south-china-sea-claims/

So let's see, the countries supporting CCP in its SCS nonsense provocations are: Cambodia, Laos, Brunei, Russia, Zimbabwe, Gambia.

North Korea so far remains silent. South Korea of course announced long ago it supports the finding of the Court.

Any CCPs present or CCP fanboyz who know for sure I've omitted any country should correct the information I have. I'd be grateful to be corrected or updated on any country I may have overlooked that supports the CCP Dictators in their aggressions in the SCS.

Edited to add the following breaking news:

Beijing said it had reached a consensus with Belarus and ­Pakistan – which are not claimant states – that said they respected China's stance on the issue, after separate meetings yesterday with the two nations' foreign ministers on the sidelines of the Conference on Interaction and Confidence Building Measures in Asia.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/29/china-intensifies-lobbying-of-other-nations-ahead-of-south-china-sea-court-ruling.html

Sort of like an 'I'll still respect you in the morning' statement.

I am surprised Brunei is supporting the 9-dash line. Brunei have been producing oil for nearly 90 years and their land based wells are pretty much dry, but they have drilled a few deep water exploration wells back in 2008/09 and long term that is where Brunei will produce their oil and gas from.

I too am a bit surprised. Note that both Brunei and The Gambia are officially Muslim, and both very small countries. I'm sure Chinese officials can be very persuasive when they want to be. The most persuasive tools are money, and the promise of it. Next is great deals. You can bet Chinese are leaving no stone unturned. Here's how I picture their modus operandi:

>>>> Everything drips with courtesy. There's a formal request to meet with the prez/PM of the small country.

>>>> Chinese delegation shows up, and is extremely polite, cheery, well-dressed, well-groomed, probably with several very beautiful woman along - the type of women you see hanging on car fenders at car shows.

>>>> Gifts, definitely, but not too blatantly, initially.

>>>> Promises of whatever sorts of trade deals / technology sharing / hotel franchises / weapons, .....whatever makes the host's eyes sparkle.

>>>> For Brunei, there was probably promises of sharing or even giving the lion's share of oil revenues to Brunei. A lot of other promises cascaded forth. For The Gambia, there were probably promises of shuttling many Chinese tourists there. The key: to tell the hosts what they most want to hear. It's like wining and dining a beautiful women while all the while hoping to get in her pretty panties. You know what women are called, who are too easily dazzled, and too quick to hop in bed ....gold-diggers and/or sluts.

[LawrenceChee]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

[boomerangutang]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry.

Has a reason been given for doing that? Ordinarily a port is gobsmacked glad to have a ship full of farang dock nearby. Money!

[LawrenceChee]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry.

Has a reason been given for doing that? Ordinarily a port is gobsmacked glad to have a ship full of farang dock nearby. Money!

Boomer - you have been following this thread right

it's just Beijing saying to the carrier ...not welcomed here ...u can head to Philippines Vietnam Korea or Japan for your R&R and supplies buts it's freezing cold in Japan and Korea now compared to warm sunny weather in HK ...sailors must be cursing this now

Manila is not too bad ...I'm here now at Hyatt City of Dreams ...they look like they need some punters here plus they can get some nice bananas for dinner

[2fishin2]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

For a guy with a lot of opinions, you sure dont know much except to spout rhetoric of which you know nothing about.

Phuket does not have a port for large US naval vessels.

Im still waiting on you to tell me what land the US has stolen from sovereign nations.

[Publicus]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

This poster was in Phuket several years ago when a USN ship docked there and he met some of the bois at a restaurant. Polite and sober fellows who knew their duty was to be respectable and respectful.

They told me any of 'em returning to the ship tanked would spend time in the tank. Ladies and gentleman all, they were.

This denial of a USN carrier and strike force docking in Hong Kong is not new. The USS Kitty Hawk was denied a scheduled Thanksgiving Day port call in HKG in 2007 along with its four support destroyer ships, battle cruiser and also a submarine. Many of the carrier group's family had flown to HKG from its base in Japan and many turkey dinners hosted by Hongkongers in their homes had been planned.

Seems back then CCP Dictators in Beijing were upset that the US Congress had very recently awarded the Dali Lama the Medal of Freedom and that he'd received it at the White House. Tsk tsk, it's always good to get the CCP's goat.

The compassionate CCP Dictators did however reverse their denial, granting the carrier strike force permission to dock but only after the group was 250 miles out (400 km) on the way back to Japan in grizzly weather.

Sort of reminds one of the CCP's cheap response to the disaster hurricane Haiyan had inflicted on the Philippines a couple of years ago in the midst of SCS disputes. CCP also had a change of heart to increase its cheap donation to the Phils but only after a global uproar that schoolchildren in the USA donated almost as much in nickels and dimes as the CCP had originally announced.

What's important to CCP is that everyone everywhere always know who's boss.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Nov/23/br/br6402173859.html

[boomerangutang]

Who makes the decision for which ships can dock in HK? HK officials or Beijing? Is that a naive question?

[lannarebirth]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

You know who is going to be even more pissed off? The HK ship's chandlers who make a fortune when the USN hits town.

[LawrenceChee]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

For a guy with a lot of opinions, you sure dont know much except to spout rhetoric of which you know nothing about.

Phuket does not have a port for large US naval vessels.

Im still waiting on you to tell me what land the US has stolen from sovereign nations.

They use your tax money and charter tenders ....you do realise cruise ships bigger than a destroyer calls into Phuket and unloads 4000+ folks there weekly during the season ....if a cruise ink any can do it with a 150,000 ton vessel ...I'm sure the navy can manage that in Phuket or Halong Bay or Danang ...you don't travel much I gather .....sorry to be so curt but your answers are rather dumb ....

Comrade P - now you are hilarious ...sailors being quiet and respectful in Phuket ....were you hanging out at Auntie Annie @ Jungceylon ?

Everyone knows when a USN ships pulls into Phuket , and seems your USA intelligence extend to the bar managers first and they are informed , bus woman from Bangkok to Phuket to make a killing from horny sailors wanting to misfire on their tomahawks .....

probably the well behaved and quiet guys just finished up and have no more cash from their monthly paycheck a ....they were probably ready to sit down and listen to a veteran in Thailand

I Guess Beijing just did Thailand tourism a big boost.

Edited April 29, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[NeverSure]

For those that are used to my posts this may seem unusual, but you don't know me. With the Steins Group in the area and Sec. Def. Carter due to arrive on board (http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/14/stennis-south-china-sea-tensions-scarborough-shoal/82989002/) I would suggest a fly bye of F-W's low level, then standing off while land based A-W's do a real low level. All armed of course. If we have no A-W's in the theater, I don't think we do, a couple of destroyer/cruiser weapons active should do. None of the pussy footing around with freedom of navigation. The US needs to quit playing around, diplomacy is one thing, the Chinese understand it better than the US. They lie and put on a pretty face, call 'em out. As long as the US continues to allow it, the Chinese will bully the countries unable to fight back. If not stopped, they will take the China Seas and the stepping stone to the nearby countries. Diplomacy?, the US needs to say out right, we back the other countries, completely dispute your phony "nine dash line" and will stop all island building. OK, overboard but what else?

First you have to have a leader - someone who will come right out and say that China needs to be controlled. We have a leader who's convinced much of the world that China can do what it wants to do. Same with Russia.

[LawrenceChee]

For those that are used to my posts this may seem unusual, but you don't know me. With the Steins Group in the area and Sec. Def. Carter due to arrive on board (http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/14/stennis-south-china-sea-tensions-scarborough-shoal/82989002/) I would suggest a fly bye of F-W's low level, then standing off while land based A-W's do a real low level. All armed of course. If we have no A-W's in the theater, I don't think we do, a couple of destroyer/cruiser weapons active should do. None of the pussy footing around with freedom of navigation. The US needs to quit playing around, diplomacy is one thing, the Chinese understand it better than the US. They lie and put on a pretty face, call 'em out. As long as the US continues to allow it, the Chinese will bully the countries unable to fight back. If not stopped, they will take the China Seas and the stepping stone to the nearby countries. Diplomacy?, the US needs to say out right, we back the other countries, completely dispute your phony "nine dash line" and will stop all island building. OK, overboard but what else?

First you have to have a leader - someone who will come right out and say that China needs to be controlled. We have a leader who's convinced much of the world that China can do what it wants to do. Same with Russia.

Don't hold your breathe...you have a ranting housewife and a crazy loose cannon ..:.both are not respected by the CCP as leaders they will be scared of or will listen to much ...expect 4 years of crazy mundane relationships

[boomerangutang]

No amount of words will get the Chinese occupiers to go back to China. The only thing that will work is dynamic action, and I don't mean embargos.

I taught class for awhile. It was at a Thai U and students were about 19 yrs old and just coming in from HS. In one class there was a girl with a motor mouth who kept interrupting. She was good natured, pretty. I mentioned it in front of the class, Didn't work to stop her. I got a bit more focused, and said some things which might have slightly embarrassed her. Didn't work. So I then asked her to stand up. I took her chair/desk and moved it to a corner by herself, where everyone could see her. It worked. She got the message.

Dynamic action is what's sometimes needed, where words and (in the case of China's territory grabs) treaties, and entreaties, and coaxing, blah blah blah, .....just won't get the job done. The 'job' is: getting Chinese to quit commandeering other peoples' islands, and to permanently vacate the vicinity.

[Publicus]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

You know who is going to be even more pissed off? The HK ship's chandlers who make a fortune when the USN hits town.

Not the issue or an issue related to the thread and its topic thx. Nobody cares about those guyz. They're not going to change the SCS military escalations nor will they alter the global or regional or local economy.

None of the above and then some.

[LawrenceChee]

No amount of words will get the Chinese occupiers to go back to China. The only thing that will work is dynamic action, and I don't mean embargos.

I taught class for awhile. It was at a Thai U and students were about 19 yrs old and just coming in from HS. In one class there was a girl with a motor mouth who kept interrupting. She was good natured, pretty. I mentioned it in front of the class, Didn't work to stop her. I got a bit more focused, and said some things which might have slightly embarrassed her. Didn't work. So I then asked her to stand up. I took her chair/desk and moved it to a corner by herself, where everyone could see her. It worked. She got the message.

Dynamic action is what's sometimes needed, where words and (in the case of China's territory grabs) treaties, and entreaties, and coaxing, blah blah blah, .....just won't get the job done. The 'job' is: getting Chinese to quit commandeering other peoples' islands, and to permanently vacate the vicinity.

Best of luck boomer with that ...the Chinese are learning fast and seeing what can push to the point of no return and what is the max you can push with each country

Remember China has learnt now as a superpower , you just have to be heard and not necessary liked.

The USA walks over Asia calling everyone friends but not everyone really liked the USA at any point but realise it's a good buddy to call at any time if something is not tilted at your favor and they will assist.

Trump is right in some ways , people should start paying the USA but allies have realised the Americans can be a tad naive at times at the foreign arena and can be exploited for free help to push a point as long as you use key words like strategic partner , we have human rights issues , or we are being oppressed , we have a dictator etc etc these words draws the Yanks to be a hero like honey to a bee

The Okinawa prefecture has been asking for years for the Americans to get out , the Koreans don't hug the GIs , Singapore is a free trade place that accepts even North Korea and Iranian ships as Long as they pay the handling fee so you can hardly count that as an ally .

The Philippines dallied for a while , closed Subic and now asked the Americans please come back again , and the Vietnamese lets just say the communist broadcast at 1800 continue daily at Danang whether you are American or not

So the Chinese have learnt ....people can protest but the Americans stayed on unabashed ...so they are learning maybe the islands will be the same ...lets keep dredging and no military exercises , let the Americans keep sailing and wasting fuel and operational hours

[boomerangutang]

LC opines: "So the Chinese have learnt ....people can protest but the Americans stayed on unabashed ...so they are learning maybe the islands will be the same ...lets keep dredging and no military exercises , let the Americans keep sailing and wasting fuel and operational hours "

Boomer responds: I don't understand "...so they are learning maybe the islands will be the same ...lets keep dredging" Is it Americans who will learn something (?) ....that the islands will be the same (?) The Chinese should keep dredging (?) LC, you say "let's keep dredging" ....are you working with the dredgers?

LC, if there are discussions about the status of the islands, I hope delegates will be able to articulate better than you. Being clear, with language and intention, is a foundation for gauging where the varying factions stand in relation to the imbroglio. I realize that negotiations will likely be in English, because that's the most commonly used language for international discussions. In the 19th century, the world's diplomatic language was most often French.

At the same time, I acknowledge that English is, at best, a 2nd language for Chinese diplomats. Even so, negotiators need to be as clear and precise as possible when discussing these matters.

Even when people are speaking in their native tongue, there can be misunderstandings. Trump does it weekly. He will say something, and then later the press corps will ask him about it, and he'll deny it, or obfuscate, or denigrate the questioner, etc. In Thailand, Mr Thaksin, when he was PM made a statement which proved to be a lie (as so many of his other statements were). Yet, when caught in the lie, he claimed he was speaking in Chiang Mai-style Thai dialect, so what he said was misinterpreted. He was lying to cover a lie, but it makes for interesting semantics - and gives an idea of the sorts of verbal contortions leaders will peruse.

Some leaders, like Obama and former presidents Clinton and Carter, were well-versed in English and able to articulate their thoughts very well. Others, like Bush Jr and Trump were/are bumblers. How good is Xi and his comrades, at expressing themselves clearly?

[LawrenceChee]

They speak clearly in mandarin and as they reckon , they have 1.3 billion of them and growing so some negotiations and most speeches will be done only in mandarin so the other side of the world has to start learning

In some tier 1 cities now, some business have gone back to Mandarin official documents which I applaud and support

I like it that I can think in both sides and watch the lawyers on the other side struggle to understand the Mandarin business terms used

Remember this is a forum , and I am typing mostly from an airport lounge ...when you meet me in person as some have done , I can articulate my thoughts with no issue in proper English with the right accent

Blame this on travel laziness ...I promise when I retire like Comrade P , I will buy a proper desk and type at least a 10 page reply to each comments with links etc etc at that time I will pay more attention to my grammar and sentence structure instead of the ........ Which I know is annoying to some

[LawrenceChee]

To clarify the point in good English :

1) I don't work for a dredging company.

2) The Chinese have decided civilian dredging will not push any angst or provoke or be perceived as military action from its ASEAN partners

3) CCP will protest in the media but won't stop the US navy from their mickey mouse patrols in the SCS

4) The US navy think they are making a difference in the SCS but the Chinese government looks at them like Mickey Mouse ; Blame the mouse fever in Shanghai when Disneyland opens in June

5) ASEAN won't be happy at this constant civilian action around the disputed islands but have nothing much they can do besides The Hague court which the CCP will ignore or hope the US action in the region will calibrate a different reaction

6) The US action will not make any difference to the Chinese plans in the SCS read point 3&4 again

Hope the above is clear happy weekend !

Edited April 30, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[2fishin2]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

For a guy with a lot of opinions, you sure dont know much except to spout rhetoric of which you know nothing about.

Phuket does not have a port for large US naval vessels.

Im still waiting on you to tell me what land the US has stolen from sovereign nations.

They use your tax money and charter tenders ....you do realise cruise ships bigger than a destroyer calls into Phuket and unloads 4000+ folks there weekly during the season ....if a cruise ink any can do it with a 150,000 ton vessel ...I'm sure the navy can manage that in Phuket or Halong Bay or Danang ...you don't travel much I gather .....sorry to be so curt but your answers are rather dumb ....

Comrade P - now you are hilarious ...sailors being quiet and respectful in Phuket ....were you hanging out at Auntie Annie @ Jungceylon ?

Everyone knows when a USN ships pulls into Phuket , and seems your USA intelligence extend to the bar managers first and they are informed , bus woman from Bangkok to Phuket to make a killing from horny sailors wanting to misfire on their tomahawks .....

probably the well behaved and quiet guys just finished up and have no more cash from their monthly paycheck a ....they were probably ready to sit down and listen to a veteran in Thailand

I Guess Beijing just did Thailand tourism a big boost.

There is no large ship port in Phuket, none. As such the ships dont go there. I live there and know.

As usual you are just talking slop you know nothing about. All for the sake of what....American bashing and trolling. About time to just keep quiet about things you know nothing about. This thread isnt about Phuket or Hong Hong, its about US military patrols in South China Sea. Get a life and quit trolling.

[LawrenceChee]

In the meantime Beijing has closed Hong Kong port to the USA carrier today and denied them entry

Guess the boys have to go down to Danang or Phuket for their R&R and buy their fresh supplies

They will be pissed they are not getting drunk at Wan Chai tonight ...but heck the girls are equally pretty in Vietnam I Guess

For a guy with a lot of opinions, you sure dont know much except to spout rhetoric of which you know nothing about.

Phuket does not have a port for large US naval vessels.

Im still waiting on you to tell me what land the US has stolen from sovereign nations.

They use your tax money and charter tenders ....you do realise cruise ships bigger than a destroyer calls into Phuket and unloads 4000+ folks there weekly during the season ....if a cruise ink any can do it with a 150,000 ton vessel ...I'm sure the navy can manage that in Phuket or Halong Bay or Danang ...you don't travel much I gather .....sorry to be so curt but your answers are rather dumb ....

Comrade P - now you are hilarious ...sailors being quiet and respectful in Phuket ....were you hanging out at Auntie Annie @ Jungceylon ?

Everyone knows when a USN ships pulls into Phuket , and seems your USA intelligence extend to the bar managers first and they are informed , bus woman from Bangkok to Phuket to make a killing from horny sailors wanting to misfire on their tomahawks .....

probably the well behaved and quiet guys just finished up and have no more cash from their monthly paycheck a ....they were probably ready to sit down and listen to a veteran in Thailand

I Guess Beijing just did Thailand tourism a big boost.

There is no large ship port in Phuket, none. As such the ships dont go there. I live there and know.

As usual you are just talking slop you know nothing about. All for the sake of what....American bashing and trolling. About time to just keep quiet about things you know nothing about. This thread isnt about Phuket or Hong Hong, its about US military patrols in South China Sea. Get a life and quit trolling.

I am sorry mate ...if you live in Phuket , I suggest you go to BigC and buy the biggest binoculars you can afford

Voyager of the Seas is coming to Phuket in a few days , it's a 150,000 tonne cruise ship and stopping in Patong Beach area ...it will be releasing 5000 passengers and crew to the Phuket area and this is done in tenders as in my original point

Tenders are small ferry boats that carry 150-300 people at any time. this is how the big cruise ships does it

How big is a US destroyer ? Less than 20,000 tons and it can dock at the Deep sea port if it wants but the tender owners know they can fleece the US navy of a lot of money providing tender rentals and won't allow ships to come in claiming a Low draft allowance

Royal Caribbean does that with most of their ships ....surf their website

Are you new to Phuket ? Take a bike to Patong and that ship will be there on May 5

No one is trolling and the thread is about the carrier ship being denied port facilities in HK because of the ongoing SCS dispute and now have to find a new place to give their sailors some needs R&R before they go nuts chasing shadows in SCS

Edited April 30, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[keemapoot]

For a guy with a lot of opinions, you sure dont know much except to spout rhetoric of which you know nothing about.

Phuket does not have a port for large US naval vessels.

Im still waiting on you to tell me what land the US has stolen from sovereign nations.

They use your tax money and charter tenders ....you do realise cruise ships bigger than a destroyer calls into Phuket and unloads 4000+ folks there weekly during the season ....if a cruise ink any can do it with a 150,000 ton vessel ...I'm sure the navy can manage that in Phuket or Halong Bay or Danang ...you don't travel much I gather .....sorry to be so curt but your answers are rather dumb ....

Comrade P - now you are hilarious ...sailors being quiet and respectful in Phuket ....were you hanging out at Auntie Annie @ Jungceylon ?

Everyone knows when a USN ships pulls into Phuket , and seems your USA intelligence extend to the bar managers first and they are informed , bus woman from Bangkok to Phuket to make a killing from horny sailors wanting to misfire on their tomahawks .....

probably the well behaved and quiet guys just finished up and have no more cash from their monthly paycheck a ....they were probably ready to sit down and listen to a veteran in Thailand

I Guess Beijing just did Thailand tourism a big boost.

There is no large ship port in Phuket, none. As such the ships dont go there. I live there and know.

As usual you are just talking slop you know nothing about. All for the sake of what....American bashing and trolling. About time to just keep quiet about things you know nothing about. This thread isnt about Phuket or Hong Hong, its about US military patrols in South China Sea. Get a life and quit trolling.

I am sorry mate ...if you live in Phuket , I suggest you go to BigC and buy the biggest binoculars you can afford

Voyager of the Seas is coming to Phuket in a few days , it's a 150,000 tonne cruise ship and stopping in Patong Beach area ...it will be releasing 5000 passengers and crew to the Phuket area and this is done in tenders as in my original point

Tenders are small ferry boats that carry 150-300 people at any time. this is how the big cruise ships does it

How big is a US destroyer ? Less than 20,000 tons and it can dock at the Deep sea port if it wants but the tender owners know they can fleece the US navy of a lot of money providing tender rentals and won't allow ships to come in claiming a Low draft allowance

Royal Caribbean does that with most of their ships ....surf their website

Are you new to Phuket ? Take a bike to Patong and that ship will be there on May 5

No one is trolling and the thread is about the carrier ship being denied port facilities in HK because of the ongoing SCS dispute and now have to find a new place to give their sailors some needs R&R before they go nuts chasing shadows in SCS

Wow, I don't know which Phuket 2fishin2 lives in, but I kept a home there for 12 years, and the US Navy called often - docked anchored either in outer Patong Bay or off of PromThep or Rawaii usually. Bizarre. Sounds like he's trying to wind you up.

Edited April 30, 2016 by keemapoot

[LawrenceChee]

Can't though ...I just got upgraded at the desk and taking my flight again ...its been a good start ...no traffic jams in Makati ...Saturday is great so far

[keemapoot]

Can't though ...I just got upgraded at the desk and taking my flight again ...its been a good start ...no traffic jams in Makati ...Saturday is great so far

Makati can be a mess. Good to hear. I always enjoy freshly grilled Tuna Stomach when in Makati.

[Publicus]

Who makes the decision for which ships can dock in HK? HK officials or Beijing? Is that a naive question?

A bit complicated but it's not difficult to sort out.

Beijing determines Hong Kong's relations with foreign countries.

This is because Hong Kong is a central part of CCP-PRC state sovereignty. Accordingly, Beijing and Beijing only determines HKG's relations with foreign countries. This is true in every respect.

Hong Kong per se has no foreign policy and no diplomacy that could be independent of Beijing. This includes from diplomacy to an army, navy, air force etc. PLA has a substantial garrison in Hong Kong because HKG is CCP-PRC sovereign territory and HKG is under the sovereign jurisdiction of Beijing. (PLA keep a low profile in HKG and the paramilitary People's Armed Police are kept out of HKG.)

HKG is not a province of the PRC. HKG is a Special Administrative Region. HKG has some local elections that are controlled by CCP in Beijing (similar to Iran).

The Hong Kong Basic Law (constitution) agreed as of 1997, when HKG reverted to China sovereignty from UK, was approved by CCP in Beijing. It recognised British laws as they existed in HKG and guaranteed existing Anglo law would remain intact for the next 50 years (minimum). Anglo law coexists with CCP law and the two are not supposed to conflict.

So the arrival of the US carrier strike force had been cleared with Beijing in advance by the HKG local government. Beijing revoked the approval, as Beijing can do because HKG is included in the sovereignty of the PRC. In this matter of international relations, Beijing instructed the HKG local government, in either event.

Without dispute.

[Publicus]

I've redacted most of the above text as I only want to respond to the issue of the Permanent Court of Arbitration. As an aside, I might add that I never understood colleagues of mine who wanted to practice international public law. It always seemed to me a practice in futility, mutual masturbation, or at worst self-flagellation. The reason, is that unlike private international arbitration, there is no enforcement mechanism for awards in arbitration from the Hague. No international sheriff will come and collect the award, or enforce an injunction. Parties just rulings without substance or action to back them up or enforce them.

China argued, with good basis, that the court lacked jurisdiction, and in any event, the Philippines prevailed and appear to be heading for an award positive ruling. But, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Assuming the court does rule against China, how expansive may the ruling be? We don't know yet. It may be limited in scope, and to expect that the US or other parties may then have legal justification for a blockade or other actions based on this action brought by the Philippines is premature.

<<snip>>

As reasoned in that Straits Times article, other aggrieved countries, such as Vietnam and Malaysia, have asked the tribunal to also tangentially rule on their rights, but the court will not rule on any issue as a holding, not properly brought before it, other than as non-binding legal dicta.

Therefore, to assume that this ruling by the Hague will result in a broadly-based international legal justification for a broad SCS blockade or other action is again, is again, whistling in the wind at this point.

But, it does provide at least some ammunition for further action.

Indeed, the Arbitral Court in The Hague will provide a definitive legal basis in international law of objections and opposition to CCP's moves in the Sea and against CCP claims of sovereignty. In the vernacular, the Court rulings will provide cover for governments and elites of the region to stand up to CCP and to engage it, led by the United States. However the Court rules, CCP is further isolated...by its own thinking, attitudes, actions against its own neighbors.

The Philippine government have their own legal team arguing the case but Manila also hired the Boston & Washington high powered and big bucks firm Foley Hoag to provide their principal counsel Paul Reichter before the Court, along with partner Andrew Lowenstein, due to their wealth of knowledge and experience in the ILOS. So yes, as noted in the post, inquiring minds want to know how wrong CCP law will be when it is held up to international law.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2015/11/26/1526040/philippines-no-basis-international-law-chinese-claims

Of the three major issues the Court will rule on, only one would give CCP wiggle room, i.e., the nine-dash "cow's tongue" line by which CCP give to themselves practically all of the Sea. The Court will indeed say something about the cow's tongue line, which means Beijing is not going to be pleased. CCP can respond or not respond, make small changes to the shape and size of the cow's tongue or not. CCP can show respect of the Court or not show any respect. Based on the record of the CCP Dictators, the latter is greatly more likely.

On the second of the three issues the Court said it has jursidiction over, the manmade features, there is Article 60(8) of UNCLOS, which defines the situation: “Artificial islands, installations, and structures do not possess the status of islands. They have no territorial sea of their own, and their presence does not affect the delimitation of the territorial sea, the exclusive economic zone, or the continental shelf.” Lawyers are lawyers and judges are lawyers, but there's not much realistic or practical wiggle room there. CCP is in compliance with the ILOS or it is not.

Third of the three major issues is the current CCP blockade of the Spratlys and of Scarborough Shoal where in each instance Philippine fishermen are stopped by CCP coast guard and maritime patrol ships from entering the waters of each to ply their trade. Or chased out when discovered in the waters of either CCP occupied natural feature. CCP does in fact operate a CCP blockade against commercial Phils fishermen, but not only Phils fishermen. The CCP blockade of the Spratlys and of Scarborough was implemented by CCP and the 'protective' blockade is enforced by CCP coastal maritime forces (low intensity maritime forces).

US Navy freedom of navigation exercises have ruptured the 'sanctity; of the CCP blockade of the Phils owned two island groups, and USN FONOPs will continue to do so. US in its FONOPs is not escorting Phils fishermen through the CCP ships in their blockade of access to the Phils territorial waters and islands. However, US FONOPs are among other important matters successfully establishing that CCP has no sovereignty or jurisdiction at either the Spratlys or at Scarborough, and that CCP is in fact an intruder into Phils territories as defined by the ILOS. Be interesting in more ways than one to see how the Court handles this one.

All the same...

In terms of principle, the case is important because it is a bold attempt to begin to untangle the knotty South China Sea disputes through the rule of law rather than the might makes right approach that China has been using over the past few years. Since 2009, China has increased its assertiveness in the South China Sea, including by seizing Scarborough Shoal from the Philippines in 2012, forcibly moving an oil rig into Vietnamese waters in 2014, building artificial islands, and encroaching even into the southernmost extent of its nine-dash line reaching into Malaysia and Indonesia. This disturbing and destabilizing pattern has continued despite repeated protests that it violates the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), other agreements like the 2002 Declaration on the Conduct of Parties Beijing inked with Southeast Asian states, and general principles like the peaceful settlement of disputes

http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/does-the-philippines-south-china-sea-case-against-china-really-matter/

Certainly the Philippines has hired world-class legal talent for this case, including lead counsel Reicher and his stellar team. Anyone who wants to listen to an in-depth interview about the case with Reicher can listen here: http://amti.csis.org/interview-with-paul-reichler-lead-counsel-for-the-philippines-in-its-case-against-china/

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/125985/us-lawyer-for-ph-expert-in-maritime-boundary-cases

However, as I've maintained, any victory at the Hague (no matter how costly, and believe me this legal bill will be huge), is empty and meaningless without an enforcement mechanism or practical effect. If the argument is that it provides legal cover for anti-China countries on this issue to start all sorts of actions, then yes, that's true, but that going down a rabbit hole, and once you start defending Philippines, are you going to chase China around with military action and blockades on behalf of Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc...?

Veteran Philippine trial lawyer, and former delegate to the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea, Estelito Mendoza recommends a more practical approach and one that results in tangible results.

<<snip>>

As a businessman who has spent most of his life involved in international private litigation which has gone to some of the world's highest courts, and where enforcement is relatively easier, believe me, there is really never any winner at the end of the day in litigation or arbitration, especially when litigating against obstinate sovereign foreign governments (which I have).

China will never recognize the Arbitral award. We already know it. They're already unequivocally stated so. Philippines will achieve a moral victory, and give legal cover to start all sorts of military posturing and action, but at what cost? And, who will act as the new sea cop of the SCS chasing China around on behalf of all these countries? USA?

There are more balanced and effective approaches, that leverage all the countries who have claims, but it requires tremendous leadership in foreign policy. I wonder if Clinton's secretary of State will be up to the task?

As Yogi Berra liked to say, predicting the future is difficult because you never know what's going to happen.

The SCS ruling by the UN Permanent Court of Arbitration is currently pending and will be announced in the coming weeks however. It is in the present and it is real and it is now. Cautions about predicting what a court is doing and will say is always taken, by lawyers and legal experts especially. Legal forecasts are always risky (even more so in respect of a jury). Still, information and an analysis of it does emanate, i.e., flow, as in leak out.

CCP are frantically running around and about because they too know what is coming from the PCA in a matter of weeks. And it ain't good news for the bad guyz. It is good news for the good guyz.

James Kraska is professor of International Law and Strategy at the U.S. Naval War College, its Stockton Center for the Study of International Law, and he's well plugged in concerning this stuff. According to Dr. Kraska, CCP are in for a good swift kick to the lower frontal area (phrasing is of course by moi).

Prof. Kraska sees, among other aspects of the Court's coming unanimous ruling, the following central findings:

1) That the Court is indirectly negating the nine-dash line (see below #s 3&4)

2) A "death blow" to CCP assertions of the legal claims it has tried to make in the SCS in almost every respect

3) None of the islands, reefs, shoals, rocks CCP has occupied to take control over -- to include artificial islands -- have any EEZ, nor do most of 'em have any claim to a 12-nautical mile territorial jurisdiction. They belong to the Philippines under Annex VII of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

4) The PCA will certify that the EEZ and other territorial assertions of the Philippines are valid, whereas the claims of the CCP in these instances are invalid under the terms of the ILOS treaty.

Prof Kraska further notes the severe legal setback of the CCP will encourage more moderate CCP voices in Beijing to scale back on its "water wars" in the SCS and in the East Sea against Japan.

He notes the coming ruling will lead Vietnam, Japan and Malaysia to petition the Court with their cases. "China now faces the prospect of a series of arbitrations in the South and East China Seas that will be a drawn-out process of cascading legal setback and embarrassments rather than a single, one-off case," the US Naval legal strategist wrote in the link below.

"The only way for the country to avoid compulsory dispute resolution for these types of cases is to withdraw from UNCLOS. Pandora’s box has been opened, and China will enter unsteady ground where adherence to the rule of law and good faith legal expertise by a vastly weaker state actually trumps a great power."

http://www.fpri.org/article/2016/04/forecasting-south-china-sea-arbitration-merits-award/

Forecasting the Aftermath of a Ruling on China’s Nine-Dash Line

There is still hope that Beijing might change course, but it will require a recommitment to UNCLOS principles from affected Asian nations, and from the United States. It will also require other major countries increasing pressure on China, such as the G-7’s surprisingly strong April 11 statement of support for the arbitration.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/20/a-big-ruling-on-the-south-china-sea-nine-dash-line-draws-near-beijing-philippines-japan-taiwan-aftermath/

Chinese cyberspies’ hack international court's website to fish for enemies in South China Sea dispute

In the middle of a weeklong hearing on a South China Sea territorial dispute, the website of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague went offline – reportedly infected with malware by someone in China.

Based on an analysis of the software and infrastructure used, the site was infected with malware by someone in China, according to ThreatConnect, a US security company. China did not take part in the Hague hearing.

Alongside the increased presence of coastguard and military ships and planes, cyberespionage is emerging as a new front in the wrangling over the South China Sea – an artery for global trade that straddles the Indian and Pacific oceans

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1868395/chinese-cyberspies-hack-international-courts-website

The expected ruling by the Court in fact turns the tables of one of the principal CCP approaches to conflict, i.e., "lawfare." CCP is indeed revealing what many of us already knew, which is that CCP is inept at both.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

*** messed up *** double post ***

Edited April 30, 2016 by boomerangutang

[boomerangutang]

"There is still hope that Beijing might change course, but it will require a recommitment to UNCLOS principles from affected Asian nations, and from the United States. It will also require other major countries increasing pressure on China, such as the G-7’s surprisingly strong April 11 statement of support for the arbitration."

Whomever wrote that is out-to-lunch on the issue. There is no hope that China will change course. As I've said several times, the only thing that will get the Chinese to go back to China is military might or the very real threat of it. Dialogue, reason, legal findings galore will not get China to change course. Not by one cm.

To clarify the point in good English :

1) I don't work for a dredging company.

2) The Chinese have decided civilian dredging will not push any angst or provoke or be perceived as military action from its ASEAN partners

3) CCP will protest in the media but won't stop the US navy from their mickey mouse patrols in the SCS

4) The US navy think they are making a difference in the SCS but the Chinese government looks at them like Mickey Mouse ; Blame the mouse fever in Shanghai when Disneyland opens in June

5) ASEAN won't be happy at this constant civilian action around the disputed islands but have nothing much they can do besides The Hague court which the CCP will ignore or hope the US action in the region will calibrate a different reaction

6) The US action will not make any difference to the Chinese plans in the SCS read point 3&4 again

Hope the above is clear happy weekend !

LC, you like to equate the term 'Micky Mouse' with US military prowess. I realize you're trying to instill levity and wit in the conversation, but it's not a joking matter. The fact remains that China is doing gross illegal actions in the SCS. It's plain to every observer. Even Chinese leaders know they're doing illegal things. The proof is them not being part of the legal proceedings, and also Chinese leaders saying (as soon as they heard there would be legal findings) ...that they would not acknowledge or abide by them.

Bandying around the term 'Micky Mouse' doesn't make the situation less grave. Chinese leaders are channeling the issue toward conflict. People will get harmed and killed. The only alternative to that is for Fils, VN, Japanese, Taiwanese, Malaysians, Indonesians, Americans, and nearly every other concerned country worldwide to do nothing, and allow China to continue to commandeer other countries' territory.

That's the basic choice: allow China to take over other countries' territory, or do something to counter it. Today it's some small islands in the Philippines' Economic Zone (plus Vietnam's Paracels and Japan's or Taiwan's Senkaku), tomorrow...... no one but the Chinese leaders know, because they never tell anyone before they take over territory. Everyone of their take-overs have been clandestine. It's no more cute than it is legal.

The threat of cyber warfare and harming Americans who are in China is real. Will that be the over-riding consideration of American policy? It could be. Helping its friends in Philippines (to get back their islands) is important, but is it worth manic cyber warfare and death of Americans by mobs in China? Probably not. So in that sense, the Chinese will probably get to keep their ill-gotten islands.

[LawrenceChee]

The Mickey Mouse comment is meant to lighten things up it's the weekend

I have full respect for the USA military and what they can do ...however in saying so I would also caution posters who think the CCP forces are not tested

and hence less deadly

I believe healthy mutual respect is important ...the CCP forces are effective and able to put up a staunch defence ...it's not that keen on offensive for now

Hence the dredging goes on .,..but no naval show of power as yet ....