US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[boomerangutang]

In the reality world of shadow Asian politics , I can say there are a lot of agreements going on while they string the USA along

The Vietnamese and Philippines governments have been experts in milking the USA and Japan for aid while pretending to be "victims" and also at the same time talking with the CCP on the potential gains in the next 20 years which is 5 USA Presidents term time

Like I say time is on the Asia pacific side as they know there is aplenty to keep USA busy around the world as it tries to stay on its status around the world

china is not going to be a danger to anyone . her own internal stresses are going to tear her apart.

You won't find me disagreeing with that...the hot topic these days in all the CCP meetings is pollution control , fiscal spendings and also where to move those factories to....without losing the $$$

China is not interested in any wars no matter how much the warmongers beat it out to be ...

Of course China doesn't want a war. No country wants a war. However, Chinese leaders are treading into confrontational territory. If, when you split to got to work at 8:30 am, I sneak in and get cozy with your wife for the next five hours. I'm not cruising for a fist fight, but my actions are leading to that.

What China is interested in is; gaining territory - mostly for resources (fishing, oil, minerals), but also to extend their military reach. There are legal ways to do that, and then there are illegal ways. Its island grab in the SCS is illegal.

[AYJAYDEE]

In the reality world of shadow Asian politics , I can say there are a lot of agreements going on while they string the USA along

The Vietnamese and Philippines governments have been experts in milking the USA and Japan for aid while pretending to be "victims" and also at the same time talking with the CCP on the potential gains in the next 20 years which is 5 USA Presidents term time

Like I say time is on the Asia pacific side as they know there is aplenty to keep USA busy around the world as it tries to stay on its status around the world

china is not going to be a danger to anyone . her own internal stresses are going to tear her apart.

You won't find me disagreeing with that...the hot topic these days in all the CCP meetings is pollution control , fiscal spendings and also where to move those factories to....without losing the $$$

China is not interested in any wars no matter how much the warmongers beat it out to be ...

Of course China doesn't want a war. No country wants a war. However, Chinese leaders are treading into confrontational territory. If, when you split to got to work at 8:30 am, I sneak in and get cozy with your wife for the next five hours. I'm not cruising for a fist fight, but my actions are leading to that.

What China is interested in is; gaining territory - mostly for resources (fishing, oil, minerals), but also to extend their military reach. There are legal ways to do that, and then there are illegal ways. Its island grab in the SCS is illegal.

has that been ruled on by anyone other than you and the vietnamese?

[Publicus]

Tonbridge Brit. admittedly, US leaders have been making mistakes over the decades. This thread could devolve to a tit for tat food fight back and forth. I and other Americans can acknowledge the mistakes made by the US. Chinese can't do that for China, at least not publicly. Every Chinese person is required to revere Chairman Mao. Nothing remotely like that happens in the US, in relation to Nixon or Reagan or Bush Jr. or any of the slew of others who have made blatant mistakes.

Americans can say disparaging things about Obama or HRC or Kerry, and it's like water running off a duck's back. Same for US policy, past and present. In China, if anyone said anything publicly which denigrates Li or any of his senior members, woe be unto them. Even a book store manager can get 'disappeared' for putting a book on a shelf which is non-flattering to the power brokers.

That's part of the problem with China's territory-grabs. No Chinese person can speak out publicly against it, unless that person wants to get beaten and thrown in jail. China's leaders tell every citizen how to think about certain topics. Everyone knows what's expected, and everyone knows they have to comply. It's not much different than N.Korea.

Thailand, for its part, always has leaders who are Chinese descent. That's part of the reason Thai leaders kowtow to Chinese demands. No Thai leader would have the courage to speak out against Chinese territory grabs. The same on other topics. The Dalai Lama was invited to visit Thailand. Chinese authorities found out and forced Thai officials to withdraw the invitation. When Bangkok hosted an all-Asia sports event, a Chinese officials noticed a Taiwanese flag flying among the other Asian countries' flags. The Chinese official told the Thai, down came the flag. If China is about to sneeze, Thailand will be there in an instant with a handkerchief. Holding the booger and snot ridden hanky, the Thai official would wai and say, "thank you. Thank you so much for giving of yourself."

congratulations! you can acknowledge the vile things your government has done around the world. unfortunately you cant DO anything about them.

Many of us spent years in the streets demonstrating to stop the war in Vietnam, which became possible only after Richard Nixon was impeached for offenses against the Constitution unrelated to the war and resigned in the face of involuntary removal from office. Many in the West demonstrated against GW Bush and his Dick Cheney against the Iraq war.

No one in the CCP demonstrates in opposition to the SCS aggressions of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. A major reason is that, as one among many not- Party friends in China put it in plain English, "They wash the brain." Many Chinese I met in the CCP agree. There aren't any Mandarin language words for CCP irredentism or for its fraternal twin, CCP revanchism. So I explained the terms to CCP friends who related to the negatives of each.

Yet no CCP Chinese act in respect of CCP belligerence and bellicosity in the SCS. Almost all of 'em support it. Another major reason is the 850,000 paramilitary troops of the People's Armed Police that are run by the internal security ministry with a budget that exceeds the PLA and armed forces budget.

PAP consists of 48 divisions of forces garrisoned in each and every province. Even the most staunch minority of CCP elites who are friends of the people, of the USA and the West cannot lead their people against the Grim Reaper. Their liberal policies, no longer tolerated, were anyway never ever more than a drop in the sea.

This and more make your summary and declaratory kiss-off post wrong.

[boomerangutang]

If I may boil down Publicus' missive, above: In China, the sheeple are fed what the politburo wants them to think. Furthermore, open peaceful demonstrations against the powers-that-be are not tolerated. If in doubt, look at Tienamin. Note: in that turkey shoot, military troops were brought to Beijing from far away provinces. Local troops were not keen on shooting to kill students camped out in the city. Army flatbed trucks were rolled in at night, with stone-faced soldiers shooting haphazardly along the sidewalks. I got the info on that from a BBC eyewitness correspondent who was close to Tienamin Square when outside troops were being deployed. Even today, any commemoration of the sad event is strictly stiffled in China.

If the US, people are allowed, albeit encouraged to form opinions. Websites aren't censored. Anyone can access millions of sites, to find varying opinions on hot topics. Dialogue is allowed and encouraged. Granted, a lot of nonsense circulates, but it's then up to individuals to assuage what's valid and what isn't. Doesn't happen in China. That's why they all have the same ideas about Tibet, and same ideas about the on-going SCS territory grab. They're only fed one side of the story, so that's all they know. Even if they deigned to form an alternative opinion, they couldn't air it in public. Not allowed.

[AYJAYDEE]

Tonbridge Brit. admittedly, US leaders have been making mistakes over the decades. This thread could devolve to a tit for tat food fight back and forth. I and other Americans can acknowledge the mistakes made by the US. Chinese can't do that for China, at least not publicly. Every Chinese person is required to revere Chairman Mao. Nothing remotely like that happens in the US, in relation to Nixon or Reagan or Bush Jr. or any of the slew of others who have made blatant mistakes.

Americans can say disparaging things about Obama or HRC or Kerry, and it's like water running off a duck's back. Same for US policy, past and present. In China, if anyone said anything publicly which denigrates Li or any of his senior members, woe be unto them. Even a book store manager can get 'disappeared' for putting a book on a shelf which is non-flattering to the power brokers.

That's part of the problem with China's territory-grabs. No Chinese person can speak out publicly against it, unless that person wants to get beaten and thrown in jail. China's leaders tell every citizen how to think about certain topics. Everyone knows what's expected, and everyone knows they have to comply. It's not much different than N.Korea.

Thailand, for its part, always has leaders who are Chinese descent. That's part of the reason Thai leaders kowtow to Chinese demands. No Thai leader would have the courage to speak out against Chinese territory grabs. The same on other topics. The Dalai Lama was invited to visit Thailand. Chinese authorities found out and forced Thai officials to withdraw the invitation. When Bangkok hosted an all-Asia sports event, a Chinese officials noticed a Taiwanese flag flying among the other Asian countries' flags. The Chinese official told the Thai, down came the flag. If China is about to sneeze, Thailand will be there in an instant with a handkerchief. Holding the booger and snot ridden hanky, the Thai official would wai and say, "thank you. Thank you so much for giving of yourself."

congratulations! you can acknowledge the vile things your government has done around the world. unfortunately you cant DO anything about them.

Many of us spent years in the streets demonstrating to stop the war in Vietnam, which became possible only after Richard Nixon was impeached for offenses against the Constitution unrelated to the war and resigned in the face of involuntary removal from office. Many in the West demonstrated against GW Bush and his Dick Cheney against the Iraq war.

No one in the CCP demonstrates in opposition to the SCS aggressions of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. A major reason is that, as one among many not- Party friends in China put it in plain English, "They wash the brain." Many Chinese I met in the CCP agree. There aren't any Mandarin language words for CCP irredentism or for its fraternal twin, CCP revanchism. So I explained the terms to CCP friends who related to the negatives of each.

Yet no CCP Chinese act in respect of CCP belligerence and bellicosity in the SCS. Almost all of 'em support it. Another major reason is the 850,000 paramilitary troops of the People's Armed Police that are run by the internal security ministry with a budget that exceeds the PLA and armed forces budget.

PAP consists of 48 divisions of forces garrisoned in each and every province. Even the most staunch minority of CCP elites who are friends of the people, of the USA and the West cannot lead their people against the Grim Reaper. Their liberal policies, no longer tolerated, were anyway never ever more than a drop in the sea.

This and more make your summary and declaratory kiss-off post wrong.

all that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said

[Publicus]

Of course China doesn't want a war. No country wants a war. However, Chinese leaders are treading into confrontational territory. If, when you split to got to work at 8:30 am, I sneak in and get cozy with your wife for the next five hours. I'm not cruising for a fist fight, but my actions are leading to that.

What China is interested in is; gaining territory - mostly for resources (fishing, oil, minerals), but also to extend their military reach. There are legal ways to do that, and then there are illegal ways. Its island grab in the SCS is illegal.

has that been ruled on by anyone other than you and the vietnamese?

Anyone with a passing nod acquaintance with the UNILOS treaty sees a prima facie case against CCP Dictators in Beijing.

CCP in 2012 sabotaged the Asean Code of Conduct for the SCS agreed in 2002 between Asean and CCP Dictators so that it is no longer agreed or effective. Asean and its supporting countries to include USA, Japan, South Korea among others do however cite the CoC precepts and principles as agreed in 2002 by Asean and the CCP Dictators.

CCP Dictators in Beijing demolished the Declaration of Conduct by the Parties in the South China Sea, also in 2012, which had been a complementary document to the Code of Conduct that provided some enhanced and extended provisions consistent with the CoC.

All of this and more constitute a prima facie case against the CCP Dictators in Beijing. Once there is a prima facie case, an actual case can be petitioned, which is what the Philippines has done at the Court of Arbitration in The Hague which is in turn sponsored by the UN.

Anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the issues here would know CCP long ago pronounced it will not abide by the Tribunal's findings, that CCP rejected the Tribunal's invitation to participate in the case to argue their side in The Hague, and that the Tribunal's rulings are expected around the middle of this year, i.e., in a couple of months. That CCP will not be pleased with the Tribunal's findings.

Do try to keep up plse thx.

[AYJAYDEE]

Of course China doesn't want a war. No country wants a war. However, Chinese leaders are treading into confrontational territory. If, when you split to got to work at 8:30 am, I sneak in and get cozy with your wife for the next five hours. I'm not cruising for a fist fight, but my actions are leading to that.

What China is interested in is; gaining territory - mostly for resources (fishing, oil, minerals), but also to extend their military reach. There are legal ways to do that, and then there are illegal ways. Its island grab in the SCS is illegal.

has that been ruled on by anyone other than you and the vietnamese?

Anyone with a passing nod acquaintance with the UNILOS treaty sees a prima facie case against CCP Dictators in Beijing.

CCP in 2012 sabotaged the Asean Code of Conduct for the SCS agreed in 2002 between Asean and CCP Dictators so that it is no longer agreed or effective. Asean and its supporting countries to include USA, Japan, South Korea among others do however cite the CoC precepts and principles as agreed in 2002 by Asean and the CCP Dictators.

CCP Dictators in Beijing demolished the Declaration of Conduct by the Parties in the South China Sea, also in 2012, which had been a complementary document to the Code of Conduct that provided some enhanced and extended provisions consistent with the CoC.

All of this and more constitute a prima facie case against the CCP Dictators in Beijing. Once there is a prima facie case, an actual case can be petitioned, which is what the Philippines has done at the Court of Arbitration in The Hague which is in turn sponsored by the UN.

Anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the issues here would know CCP long ago pronounced it will not abide by the Tribunal's findings, that CCP rejected the Tribunal's invitation to participate in the case to argue their side in The Hague, and that the Tribunal's rulings are expected around the middle of this year, i.e., in a couple of months. That CCP will not be pleased with the Tribunal's findings.

Do try to keep up plse thx.

and china , like america, refuses to accept international rulings with which it does not agree. so all your huffing and puffing means diddley

[Publicus]

We've seen what they can do in frenzied group-think. It wasn't so long ago, during the Cultural Revolution, where professors were killed in public and many of Tibet's centuries-old temples were defaced and monks killed. It doesn't take much to get a group-think frenzy going in countries like China or N.Korea.

This $1 billion CCP oil drilling rig aka 981 is again 126 miles off the coast of Vietnam, i.e., within the territorial Economic Exclusion Zone of the Republic of Vietnam.

CCP Dictators in Beijing continue to ignore the Asean-CCP agreed Code of Conduct for the South China Sea, since 2012 when CCP busted up the Asean annual meeting in Cambodia with the support of |Asean members Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar.

CCP is also ignoring the Declaration of Conduct by Parties in the South China Sea which had also been agreed by Asean and CCP but which CCP also sabotaged in Cambodia in 20012.

CCP is uncompromising, unreasonable, irrational, arbitrary, arrogantly scolding and lecturing, in its determination to become an East Asia hegemon and to transmogrify both the SCS into a Chinese lake and Asean itself into a grouping of CCP China tributary states. As the West learned from 1920 to 1945, there is only one way to deal with an aggressive and absolutist dictatorship that sees itself as superior and as inherently entitled.

Friday, 8 April 2016

Vietnam has demanded that China remove an oil exploration rig from a sea area where the countries are still negotiating a delineation of control.

Foreign Minstry spokesman Le Hai Binh said that Vietnam opposes China's actions and urges China to contribute to peace and stability in the region.

The Haiyang Shiyou oil rig was at the center of standoff between the countries in 2014 when China parked the oil rig near the Paracel islands that Vietnam claims as its exclusive economic zone.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/asiapacific/2016/04/08/vietnam-demands-china-to-remove-oil-rig.html#sthash.L205T5pG.dpuf

May 7, 2014

Up to 21 dead as anti-China riots spread in Vietnam

Anti-China riots erupted in industrial zones in the south of the country on Tuesday after protests against Beijing placing an oil rig in a part of the South China Sea claimed by Hanoi.

China expressed serious concern over the violence in Vietnam and urged it to punish criminals and compensate victims. Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying suggested Hanoi had turned a blind eye to the protesters.

"The looting and stealing that has taken place at Chinese businesses and to Chinese people has a direct relationship with Vietnam's winking at and indulging law breakers there.

https://news.vice.com/article/vietnam-is-pissed-that-china-is-blowing-up-the-south-china-sea

"The United States has long said it remains neutral in the dispute and has essentially taken a pretty passive stance as to what's going on in the South China Sea," Michael Mazza, a research fellow with American Enterprise Institute, told VICE News. "I think the United States needs to, in conjunction with its allies and partners in the region, actually come down on at least what it believes are high seas versus territorial waters. And perhaps make some judgment on what are plausible claims and what are not. That can give the United States a baseline from which to act in the region to push back against particularly egregious Chinese behavior, or egregious behavior from others, in order to deter more aggressive activities."

https://news.vice.com/article/vietnam-is-pissed-that-china-is-blowing-up-the-south-china-sea

Yes, them Vietnamese killed about 20 people in them anti-China riots in 2014. We're talking about Chinese-owned companies in Vietnam. There's a lot of Chinese-owned companies in Vietnam. Now, IF it was Americans who were being killed, then what ?

Washington would have carried out an attack and invasion of Vietnam in response !!!

are these companies owned by companies with head offices in china or simply ethnic chinese who are vietnamese citizens?

Kindly consider doing your own research so that you might be able to keep up plse thx.

[Publicus]

Boomer, your point about the territory grabs by the US through history and its comparison with China's SCS grabs is not comparable in several respects. First, territory is defined by land mass, land territory is occupy-able by people, and that often means displacement, death or injury by the invader which elevates the game. As shown in that video posted by Oilworker the feeble posting of 10 ragged Philippine marines on that old wreck of a ship on the reef is not the same as a highly inhabited place. Therefore, irrespective of the strategic claims of the GPS coordinates, whether or not there is 'inhabitable land' is central to any discussion, and secondly, who claims ownership of that land.

China's reclamation of the reefs and creating islands, which it will then occupy is a very powerful thing to do. It creates a sort of eminent domain where property never existed, which then can be populated by both civilians and military. In other words, it will be hard to dislodge the Chinese once they are installed on those man-made islands, one of which might become an airstrip. The Philippines does not have the resources to run with China on this issue, and everyone knows it. The US is going to have to basically do a formal adoption (in spite of the protection treaty) of the Philippines to protect them on this issue and take a much larger role superseding Philippine military and security. I wonder if everyone realizes how much that will cost in time, money, resources, political capital and other costs, and whether the Philippine people will be willing to live under that kind of obligation again.

*And then what? Rinse and repeat with respect to Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia? Chase China around the SCS like the little dutch girl trying to plug the hole in the dyke with her tiny fingers? It will be a very busy and expensive 21st century in the Asia-Pacific and I don't see how we will have the money to do this and to build a wall against Mexico if Trump gets elected.

do a formal adoption (in spite of the protection treaty) of the Philippines to protect them on this issue and take a much larger role superseding Philippine military and security.

*And then what? Rinse and repeat with respect to Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia? Chase China around the SCS like the little dutch girl trying to plug the hole in the dyke with her tiny fingers? It will be a very busy and expensive 21st century in the Asia-Pacific and I don't see how we will have the money to do this and to build a wall against Mexico if Trump gets elected.

That must be some wicked stuff you're smoking to come down with the above absolute nonsense, drivel, babble. Good thing we here are not on your timesheet of today.

You reached back to 1898 concerning the Philippines but even back then the US bungling applied to only colonising the Phils, the worst US decision of the 19th century. We simultaneously however transitioned Cuba from Spanish rule to sovereignty but the fact remains we screwed up badly in respect of the Phils.

Extrapolating on that to where you arrived in the post suggests the distinguished gentleman might want to go easy in the future on any and all extrapolating. Or at the least go easy on the weed.

Once the head clears, perhaps the distinguished gentleman can see the CCP Dictators in Beijing as the new dynasty of Chinese emperors in business suits that they are, determined to mangle Asean into their return as tributary states of the Middle Kingdom revived, with the SCS as Beijing's lake.

[AYJAYDEE]

are these companies owned by companies with head offices in china or simply ethnic chinese who are vietnamese citizens?

Kindly consider doing your own research so that you might be able to keep up plse thx.

didnt think you could answer that one! lol

[Publicus]

Of course China doesn't want a war. No country wants a war. However, Chinese leaders are treading into confrontational territory. If, when you split to got to work at 8:30 am, I sneak in and get cozy with your wife for the next five hours. I'm not cruising for a fist fight, but my actions are leading to that.

What China is interested in is; gaining territory - mostly for resources (fishing, oil, minerals), but also to extend their military reach. There are legal ways to do that, and then there are illegal ways. Its island grab in the SCS is illegal.

has that been ruled on by anyone other than you and the vietnamese?

Anyone with a passing nod acquaintance with the UNILOS treaty sees a prima facie case against CCP Dictators in Beijing.

CCP in 2012 sabotaged the Asean Code of Conduct for the SCS agreed in 2002 between Asean and CCP Dictators so that it is no longer agreed or effective. Asean and its supporting countries to include USA, Japan, South Korea among others do however cite the CoC precepts and principles as agreed in 2002 by Asean and the CCP Dictators.

CCP Dictators in Beijing demolished the Declaration of Conduct by the Parties in the South China Sea, also in 2012, which had been a complementary document to the Code of Conduct that provided some enhanced and extended provisions consistent with the CoC.

All of this and more constitute a prima facie case against the CCP Dictators in Beijing. Once there is a prima facie case, an actual case can be petitioned, which is what the Philippines has done at the Court of Arbitration in The Hague which is in turn sponsored by the UN.

Anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the issues here would know CCP long ago pronounced it will not abide by the Tribunal's findings, that CCP rejected the Tribunal's invitation to participate in the case to argue their side in The Hague, and that the Tribunal's rulings are expected around the middle of this year, i.e., in a couple of months. That CCP will not be pleased with the Tribunal's findings.

Do try to keep up plse thx.

and china , like america, refuses to accept international rulings with which it does not agree. so all your huffing and puffing means diddley

Instances plse thx.

While the US Senate has not ratified the ILOS, the executive branch conducts its global affairs as if the treaty applied to the USA.

In the meanwhile, issuing only summary and declaratory statements of an arbitrary nature call attention to the self.

[Publicus]

Tonbridge Brit. admittedly, US leaders have been making mistakes over the decades. This thread could devolve to a tit for tat food fight back and forth. I and other Americans can acknowledge the mistakes made by the US. Chinese can't do that for China, at least not publicly. Every Chinese person is required to revere Chairman Mao. Nothing remotely like that happens in the US, in relation to Nixon or Reagan or Bush Jr. or any of the slew of others who have made blatant mistakes.

Americans can say disparaging things about Obama or HRC or Kerry, and it's like water running off a duck's back. Same for US policy, past and present. In China, if anyone said anything publicly which denigrates Li or any of his senior members, woe be unto them. Even a book store manager can get 'disappeared' for putting a book on a shelf which is non-flattering to the power brokers.

That's part of the problem with China's territory-grabs. No Chinese person can speak out publicly against it, unless that person wants to get beaten and thrown in jail. China's leaders tell every citizen how to think about certain topics. Everyone knows what's expected, and everyone knows they have to comply. It's not much different than N.Korea.

Thailand, for its part, always has leaders who are Chinese descent. That's part of the reason Thai leaders kowtow to Chinese demands. No Thai leader would have the courage to speak out against Chinese territory grabs. The same on other topics. The Dalai Lama was invited to visit Thailand. Chinese authorities found out and forced Thai officials to withdraw the invitation. When Bangkok hosted an all-Asia sports event, a Chinese officials noticed a Taiwanese flag flying among the other Asian countries' flags. The Chinese official told the Thai, down came the flag. If China is about to sneeze, Thailand will be there in an instant with a handkerchief. Holding the booger and snot ridden hanky, the Thai official would wai and say, "thank you. Thank you so much for giving of yourself."

congratulations! you can acknowledge the vile things your government has done around the world. unfortunately you cant DO anything about them.

Many of us spent years in the streets demonstrating to stop the war in Vietnam, which became possible only after Richard Nixon was impeached for offenses against the Constitution unrelated to the war and resigned in the face of involuntary removal from office. Many in the West demonstrated against GW Bush and his Dick Cheney against the Iraq war.

No one in the CCP demonstrates in opposition to the SCS aggressions of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. A major reason is that, as one among many not- Party friends in China put it in plain English, "They wash the brain." Many Chinese I met in the CCP agree. There aren't any Mandarin language words for CCP irredentism or for its fraternal twin, CCP revanchism. So I explained the terms to CCP friends who related to the negatives of each.

Yet no CCP Chinese act in respect of CCP belligerence and bellicosity in the SCS. Almost all of 'em support it. Another major reason is the 850,000 paramilitary troops of the People's Armed Police that are run by the internal security ministry with a budget that exceeds the PLA and armed forces budget.

PAP consists of 48 divisions of forces garrisoned in each and every province. Even the most staunch minority of CCP elites who are friends of the people, of the USA and the West cannot lead their people against the Grim Reaper. Their liberal policies, no longer tolerated, were anyway never ever more than a drop in the sea.

This and more make your summary and declaratory kiss-off post wrong.

all that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said

Only if you say so

[AYJAYDEE]

If I may boil down Publicus' missive, above: In China, the sheeple are fed what the politburo wants them to think. Furthermore, open peaceful demonstrations against the powers-that-be are not tolerated. If in doubt, look at Tienamin. Note: in that turkey shoot, military troops were brought to Beijing from far away provinces. Local troops were not keen on shooting to kill students camped out in the city. Army flatbed trucks were rolled in at night, with stone-faced soldiers shooting haphazardly along the sidewalks. I got the info on that from a BBC eyewitness correspondent who was close to Tienamin Square when outside troops were being deployed. Even today, any commemoration of the sad event is strictly stiffled in China.

If the US, people are allowed, albeit encouraged to form opinions. Websites aren't censored. Anyone can access millions of sites, to find varying opinions on hot topics. Dialogue is allowed and encouraged. Granted, a lot of nonsense circulates, but it's then up to individuals to assuage what's valid and what isn't. Doesn't happen in China. That's why they all have the same ideas about Tibet, and same ideas about the on-going SCS territory grab. They're only fed one side of the story, so that's all they know. Even if they deigned to form an alternative opinion, they couldn't air it in public. Not allowed.

the opportunity of forming opinions doesnt do much good when the american media is so pathetic and the population so apathetic.

[LawrenceChee]

Morning Comrade P ...a little late and we have been waiting for you VPN giving some issues or just typing speed today ?

Well if there was an American south sea somewhere on the history books ...you bet Uncle Sam would want it back legally or illegally sneaking in asset to do so

Heck it is already doing so on the premise its military can go anywhere it wants when it feels like starting a regional conflict and then running off to the next one without finishing what it started

But let's not get ahead of ourselves ...USA is about a few hundred years old only and China has about 5000 and the sea is called South China Sea

True story ....when I see my son playing in his school , I am reminded international relations is like this ...they fight and the next day they hug like best friends again ...ball time against the Kiwi kids is not funny hahhaha he gets bashed

he hears my conference calls at nights with colleagues and tells me the American talks funny and loud , the British English is so formal and the Indians shake their heads when they say yes ...he's five and it's hilarious when he says it this way ....thank god he speaks like a Brit or so the mum says

[Publicus]

Before CCP could be come a global power it must first become a regional power. Hence the CCP created commotions in the East Sea against detested Japan and the South China Sea to twist Asean into tributary states of the always delusion of the Middle Kingdom.

CCP has since 2009 tried unsuccessfully to separate the US from its allies in East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia. Not only have the CCP Dictators in Beijing failed to finagle this, they have strengthened existing US allies and partners and have created new "strategic partner" countries such as India, Maylysia, Vietnam. (Taiwan is btw an excellent platform to look into the mainland to see and to hear.)

Japan PM Shinzo Abe speaks of the "Democracy Diamond" that contains the expansionist CCP Dictators. PM Abe draws his diagram from Japan to Hawaii, back down through Australia/NZ. out across to India, back upward through SE Asia and Taiwan, up again to South Korea and Japan.

CCP emperors in business suits still have no clue the present time is not an extension of the times 500 years ago, or of a thousand years ago.

From the China Daily Mail....

As Beijing adopts harsher policies, the areas where it can cooperate with others shrink. And the areas of disagreement are becoming more important, therefore more difficult to solve.

Take the South China Sea, for instance. Despite what Xinhua said, it was China picking the fight. In that critical body of water—annual seaborne commerce there totals $5 trillion—Beijing claims virtually all the islands, reefs, and shoals and about four fifths of the water as its own.

Chinese officials maintain America has no legitimate interest there. “The United States is not a party in the South China Sea disputes, which are between China and other claimants and should be handled by those directly involved,” Xinhua stated on Saturday.

So China is telling Washington to abandon America’s oldest foreign policy, the defence of freedom of navigation. That is unacceptable for the ultimate guarantor of the global commons. Various sources, starting with the Wall Street Journal, have pointed out that the Pentagon is drawing up plans to send U.S. vessels and aircraft to challenge Beijing’s sovereignty claims that impinge on freedom of navigation; in other words, those claims that purport to turn an international sea into Chinese territorial water.

https://chinadailymail.com/2015/05/24/the-chinese-century-is-already-over/

The US response with allies, strategic partners and groupings from throughout the world such as the G-7 have only begun to respond to the CCP Dictators in Beijing.

[AYJAYDEE]

Before CCP could be come a global power it must first become a regional power. Hence the CCP created commotions in the East Sea against detested Japan and the South China Sea to twist Asean into tributary states of the always delusion of the Middle Kingdom.

CCP has since 2009 tried unsuccessfully to separate the US from its allies in East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia. Not only have the CCP Dictators in Beijing failed to finagle this, they have strengthened existing US allies and partners and have created new "strategic partner" countries such as India, Maylysia, Vietnam. (Taiwan is btw an excellent platform to look into the mainland to see and to hear.)

Japan PM Shinzo Abe speaks of the "Democracy Diamond" that contains the expansionist CCP Dictators. PM Abe draws his diagram from Japan to Hawaii, back down through Australia/NZ. out across to India, back upward through SE Asia and Taiwan, up again to South Korea and Japan.

CCP emperors in business suits still have no clue the present time is not an extension of the times 500 years ago, or of a thousand years ago.

From the China Daily Mail....

As Beijing adopts harsher policies, the areas where it can cooperate with others shrink. And the areas of disagreement are becoming more important, therefore more difficult to solve.

Take the South China Sea, for instance. Despite what Xinhua said, it was China picking the fight. In that critical body of water—annual seaborne commerce there totals $5 trillion—Beijing claims virtually all the islands, reefs, and shoals and about four fifths of the water as its own.

Chinese officials maintain America has no legitimate interest there. “The United States is not a party in the South China Sea disputes, which are between China and other claimants and should be handled by those directly involved,” Xinhua stated on Saturday.

So China is telling Washington to abandon America’s oldest foreign policy, the defence of freedom of navigation. That is unacceptable for the ultimate guarantor of the global commons. Various sources, starting with the Wall Street Journal, have pointed out that the Pentagon is drawing up plans to send U.S. vessels and aircraft to challenge Beijing’s sovereignty claims that impinge on freedom of navigation; in other words, those claims that purport to turn an international sea into Chinese territorial water.

https://chinadailymail.com/2015/05/24/the-chinese-century-is-already-over/

The US response with allies, strategic partners and groupings from throughout the world such as the G-7 have only begun to respond to the CCP Dictators in Beijing.

oh those nasty CCP dictators!! lol theyre nothing like the democratic dictators that are on americas side!!

[Publicus]

If I may boil down Publicus' missive, above: In China, the sheeple are fed what the politburo wants them to think. Furthermore, open peaceful demonstrations against the powers-that-be are not tolerated. If in doubt, look at Tienamin. Note: in that turkey shoot, military troops were brought to Beijing from far away provinces. Local troops were not keen on shooting to kill students camped out in the city. Army flatbed trucks were rolled in at night, with stone-faced soldiers shooting haphazardly along the sidewalks. I got the info on that from a BBC eyewitness correspondent who was close to Tienamin Square when outside troops were being deployed. Even today, any commemoration of the sad event is strictly stiffled in China.

If the US, people are allowed, albeit encouraged to form opinions. Websites aren't censored. Anyone can access millions of sites, to find varying opinions on hot topics. Dialogue is allowed and encouraged. Granted, a lot of nonsense circulates, but it's then up to individuals to assuage what's valid and what isn't. Doesn't happen in China. That's why they all have the same ideas about Tibet, and same ideas about the on-going SCS territory grab. They're only fed one side of the story, so that's all they know. Even if they deigned to form an alternative opinion, they couldn't air it in public. Not allowed.

the opportunity of forming opinions doesnt do much good when the american media is so pathetic and the population so apathetic.

Fear not.

While the situation in the USA is hopeless, it is not serious.

[keemapoot]

has that been ruled on by anyone other than you and the vietnamese?

Anyone with a passing nod acquaintance with the UNILOS treaty sees a prima facie case against CCP Dictators in Beijing.

CCP in 2012 sabotaged the Asean Code of Conduct for the SCS agreed in 2002 between Asean and CCP Dictators so that it is no longer agreed or effective. Asean and its supporting countries to include USA, Japan, South Korea among others do however cite the CoC precepts and principles as agreed in 2002 by Asean and the CCP Dictators.

CCP Dictators in Beijing demolished the Declaration of Conduct by the Parties in the South China Sea, also in 2012, which had been a complementary document to the Code of Conduct that provided some enhanced and extended provisions consistent with the CoC.

All of this and more constitute a prima facie case against the CCP Dictators in Beijing. Once there is a prima facie case, an actual case can be petitioned, which is what the Philippines has done at the Court of Arbitration in The Hague which is in turn sponsored by the UN.

Anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the issues here would know CCP long ago pronounced it will not abide by the Tribunal's findings, that CCP rejected the Tribunal's invitation to participate in the case to argue their side in The Hague, and that the Tribunal's rulings are expected around the middle of this year, i.e., in a couple of months. That CCP will not be pleased with the Tribunal's findings.

Do try to keep up plse thx.

and china , like america, refuses to accept international rulings with which it does not agree. so all your huffing and puffing means diddley

Instances plse thx.

While the US Senate has not ratified the ILOS, the executive branch conducts its global affairs as if the treaty applied to the USA.

In the meanwhile, issuing only summary and declaratory statements of an arbitrary nature call attention to the self.

Without taking the time to write a dissertation on the subject as some are prone to do, for starters, there is the International Criminal Court. It's a pretty clear example of American exceptionalism. There are many others. The US selectively supports those treaties which advance its interests and protect it from prosecution of its own transgressions.

The United States government has consistently opposed an international court that could hold US military and political leaders to a uniform global standard of justice.

[Publicus]

What ?? Publicus, YOU wrote "the only thing to fear more than a rising China is a falling China. Desperation is a very dangerous driver."

Publicus, why the fear ??

Fear of CCP ? Fear of the Chinese Communist Party ? Fear of China ? Fear of Russia ? Fear of Communists ? Fear of Reds in Latin America ? Fear of Sandinistas ? Fear of Islam ? Fear of Muslims ? Fear of Iran ? Fear of paranoi ? When is the FEAR going to go away ?

Joseph_McCarthy.jpg

Okay, none of us will know who the above man is. But the above man is significant. It's Joseph McCarthy. McCarthy was mad. He had paranoi against communists. It was a long time ago, back in the 1950s. I sometimes wonder, today, there are Americans who still have this paranoi. Is paranoi passed on via the genes ??

you wonder? when massive numbers of americans swear their president is a communist? lol

Ayjaydee, you can laugh if you want, but is it actually funny ??

See, Publicus is constantly on ThaiVisa, and Publicus is actually AGAINST Donald Trump and cheers on Hillary Clinton and the Democrats. Publicus, supposedly, is a 'liberal', he hates Donald Trump. And yet, Publicus trots out all this rhetoric against China.

Actually, Hillary Clinton supported and voted in favour of the Bush invasion of Iraq. Yes, some of America's 'liberals' are actually a bunch of sympathisers of the war-mongers. We live in a crazy world.

I have had many conversations with Asia-experienced US diplomats and US leaders of industry and none of them ever trot out that kind of anti-China rhetoric. Believe me, practitioners in the real world see China through a much more multi-dimensional and sophisticated lens.

The corrupt and patched together CCP economy is fattening the wallets of a lot of people globally. Moroever, the tally since year 2000 is $4 Trillion swindled by corruption in CCP China.

Capital continues to flee the CCP economy and financial system but China will always and still be there. It will need a serious rescue and there's bucks to be made in that too.

In addition to geostrategic factors the South China Sea commotion has a lot to do with bucks too....

The oil transported through the Strait of Malacca from the Indian Ocean, en route to East Asia through the South China Sea, is more than six times the amount that passes through the Suez Canal and 17 times the amount that transits the Panama Canal,”

Robert Kaplan observed in a 2011 piece for Foreign Policy. “Roughly two-thirds of South Korea’s energy supplies, nearly 60 percent of Japan’s and Taiwan’s energy supplies, and about 80 percent of China’s crude-oil imports come through the South China Sea. What’s more, the South China Sea has proven oil reserves of 7 billion barrels and an estimated 900 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, a potentially huge bounty.” The sheer volume of trade and energy reserves that pass through these sea lanes renders them a flashpoint, and China has made it clear that it will fight for primacy over them.

For those who would ignore the realities of the modern globalized world and who hope that America that can retreat back into its fortress, a citadel that never really existed but which retains its mythic appeal, the Chinese would disabuse them of the idea that a return the status quo ante 1945 is achievable.

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/foreign-policy/asia/trumps-hawkish-rhetoric-on-china-masks-utter-ignorance/

China: $4 Trillion in Dirty Money Should Worry Us All http://www.gfintegrity.org/press-release/china-4-trillion-in-dirty-money-should-worry-us-all/

[Publicus]

Anyone with a passing nod acquaintance with the UNILOS treaty sees a prima facie case against CCP Dictators in Beijing.

CCP in 2012 sabotaged the Asean Code of Conduct for the SCS agreed in 2002 between Asean and CCP Dictators so that it is no longer agreed or effective. Asean and its supporting countries to include USA, Japan, South Korea among others do however cite the CoC precepts and principles as agreed in 2002 by Asean and the CCP Dictators.

CCP Dictators in Beijing demolished the Declaration of Conduct by the Parties in the South China Sea, also in 2012, which had been a complementary document to the Code of Conduct that provided some enhanced and extended provisions consistent with the CoC.

All of this and more constitute a prima facie case against the CCP Dictators in Beijing. Once there is a prima facie case, an actual case can be petitioned, which is what the Philippines has done at the Court of Arbitration in The Hague which is in turn sponsored by the UN.

Anyone with a nodding acquaintance with the issues here would know CCP long ago pronounced it will not abide by the Tribunal's findings, that CCP rejected the Tribunal's invitation to participate in the case to argue their side in The Hague, and that the Tribunal's rulings are expected around the middle of this year, i.e., in a couple of months. That CCP will not be pleased with the Tribunal's findings.

Do try to keep up plse thx.

and china , like america, refuses to accept international rulings with which it does not agree. so all your huffing and puffing means diddley

Instances plse thx.

While the US Senate has not ratified the ILOS, the executive branch conducts its global affairs as if the treaty applied to the USA.

In the meanwhile, issuing only summary and declaratory statements of an arbitrary nature call attention to the self.

Without taking the time to write a dissertation on the subject as some are prone to do, for starters, there is the International Criminal Court. It's a pretty clear example of American exceptionalism. There are many others. The US selectively supports those treaties which advance its interests and protect it from prosecution of its own transgressions.

The United States government has consistently opposed an international court that could hold US military and political leaders to a uniform global standard of justice.

This poster has for decades favored establishing such as court, except for the reality that the America haters everywhere would, on the first day of any such court's existence, pack it with 20,000,000 Americans.

Kissinger for instance belonged in front of such a court long ago, as did his benefactor Richard Nixon. GW Bush and his Dick Cheney belong in front of such a court. Lyndon Johnson is another. There is a list.

However, the nihilist and anarchist America haters would break with their own chaotic world to support such a court which would pack in many more Americans than those mentioned in this post and other US leaders who would additionally belong there in the dock.

So forget it. Indefinitely. The thread is about the US response to the CCP Dictators in Beijing, their aggressions in the SCS and its global commons, the Arbitral Tribunal in The Hague hearing the Phils case against the CCP Dictators, all of which and more are directly related to CCP's aggressions in the East Sea against detested Japan.

[55Jay]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

[AYJAYDEE]

So forget it. Indefinitely. The thread is about the US response to the CCP Dictators in Beijing, their aggressions in the SCS and its global commons, the Arbitral Tribunal in The Hague hearing the Phils case against the CCP Dictators, all of which and more are directly related to CCP's aggressions in the East Sea against detested Japan.

lol! you ask for examples and when you are given them, you dismiss them as being outside the scope of the thread!

[Publicus]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

Indeed.

Maybe it is time to hear from the Vietnamese for a change concerning your reference to what happened in the Vietnam EEZ of the South China Sea...

In early 1988, for the first time the Chinese navy went to some islands in the Truong Sa Archipelago. Specifically, on January 31st 1988 China occupied the Chu Thap (Fiery Cross) Reef, the Chau Vien (Cuarteron) Reef on February 18th 1988, the Gaven Reefs on February 26th 1988, and the Tu Nghia (Hughes) Reef on February 28.

Gac Ma Reef of Vietnam. At 6am Chinese troops landed on the reef, rushed to pull up the Vietnam flag on the island. The Vietnamese soldiers who were protecting the national flag were stabbed by bayonets and shot dead.

The unarmed sappers of Vietnam were still determined to defend the flag. Two Chinese warships fired on the Vietnamese soldiers on the reef and the Vietnamese cargo vessel 604. Captain Vu Phi Tru and some soldiers were sacrificed. The ship was sunk.

At the Co Lin Reef (3.5 nautical miles from Gac Ma) and Len Dao Reef, China attacked fiercely from 6 am on March 14th, killed some Vietnamese sappers on the reefs and fired two cargo ships of Vietnam, the HQ 505 and HQ 605.

The massacre that lasted 28 minutes caused heavy damage to Vietnam, with three cargo ships sunk, three soldiers died, 11 soldiers were injured and 74 soldiers got missing. China later returned nine soldiers who were arrested. The remaining people are considered to sacrifice.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/special-reports/155232/china-s-ambition-and-the-lessons-from-gac-ma.html

This was one year before the Tiananmen Massacre in the CCP itself.

[LawrenceChee]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

If you think this is bad , head to Danang and visit the families generations after agent orang carpet bombing by the USA military during the Vietnam wars

That's reality for you ....I have posted some earlier information and like I say the Americans businessman who visited mostly cried after the experience and these are CEOs of big companies and later came back with their private contributions which has gone a long way to soothe the pain but the reality is there

China fears such military interference from the USA as their commanders believe in unified bombing to submission which means lots of civilian deaths and casualties generations on after the Politicians have all gone home or retired

As such China continues to talk in the background and understandably like every country wants to pursue their interests first

This is real ...a big country like China may not negotiate on fair terms all the time ...that's true but neither has any of the rest of the world when they deal with world issues.

Eg ... Germany speaks to Greece or Turkey on budgets and refugees recently ...you think they went all fair or more big Brother coming in and saying "come on get real" and negotiated based on what Germany feels is best

Politics stinks ....this who believes in fairies and unicorns will be very uncomfortable in the reality

[LawrenceChee]

If I may boil down Publicus' missive, above: In China, the sheeple are fed what the politburo wants them to think. Furthermore, open peaceful demonstrations against the powers-that-be are not tolerated. If in doubt, look at Tienamin. Note: in that turkey shoot, military troops were brought to Beijing from far away provinces. Local troops were not keen on shooting to kill students camped out in the city. Army flatbed trucks were rolled in at night, with stone-faced soldiers shooting haphazardly along the sidewalks. I got the info on that from a BBC eyewitness correspondent who was close to Tienamin Square when outside troops were being deployed. Even today, any commemoration of the sad event is strictly stiffled in China.

If the US, people are allowed, albeit encouraged to form opinions. Websites aren't censored. Anyone can access millions of sites, to find varying opinions on hot topics. Dialogue is allowed and encouraged. Granted, a lot of nonsense circulates, but it's then up to individuals to assuage what's valid and what isn't. Doesn't happen in China. That's why they all have the same ideas about Tibet, and same ideas about the on-going SCS territory grab. They're only fed one side of the story, so that's all they know. Even if they deigned to form an alternative opinion, they couldn't air it in public. Not allowed.

the opportunity of forming opinions doesnt do much good when the american media is so pathetic and the population so apathetic.

Fear not.

While the situation in the USA is hopeless, it is not serious.

That's the dumbest thing ....the US military continue to work under the orders of presidents who make some very bad decisions recently and I am hoping they will stay out of the SCS

A president that orders the Attack on Iraq based on false information to its U.K. Allies is not prosecuted and then having pursued Saddam to the grave , removed the stabilising force for the terrorists groups there to blossom and get armed and later integrated with the Arab spring to create a domino effect of refugee situation and thankfully has so far kept its hands off Ukraine...lets not forget the afghan situation that is now back to square one

This is not serious ????

The world continues to pray you guys will stop meddling with world affairs and in the real world of the Middle East ....there are millions there whose lives will be changed forever for generations with no security , no normality and no peaceful day of life we take for granted in Thailand writing forum pages

The USA needs to take a pause and stop ....its inaction will be a blessing for the world ..focus back on its own economy and country and yes even borrowing Trumps line ..."make America great again with the focus on the word America and staying there "

[boomerangutang]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

Indeed.

Maybe it is time to hear from the Vietnamese for a change concerning your reference to what happened in the Vietnam EEZ of the South China Sea...

In early 1988, for the first time the Chinese navy went to some islands in the Truong Sa Archipelago. Specifically, on January 31st 1988 China occupied the Chu Thap (Fiery Cross) Reef, the Chau Vien (Cuarteron) Reef on February 18th 1988, the Gaven Reefs on February 26th 1988, and the Tu Nghia (Hughes) Reef on February 28.

Gac Ma Reef of Vietnam. At 6am Chinese troops landed on the reef, rushed to pull up the Vietnam flag on the island. The Vietnamese soldiers who were protecting the national flag were stabbed by bayonets and shot dead.

The unarmed sappers of Vietnam were still determined to defend the flag. Two Chinese warships fired on the Vietnamese soldiers on the reef and the Vietnamese cargo vessel 604. Captain Vu Phi Tru and some soldiers were sacrificed. The ship was sunk.

At the Co Lin Reef (3.5 nautical miles from Gac Ma) and Len Dao Reef, China attacked fiercely from 6 am on March 14th, killed some Vietnamese sappers on the reefs and fired two cargo ships of Vietnam, the HQ 505 and HQ 605.

The massacre that lasted 28 minutes caused heavy damage to Vietnam, with three cargo ships sunk, three soldiers died, 11 soldiers were injured and 74 soldiers got missing. China later returned nine soldiers who were arrested. The remaining people are considered to sacrifice.

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/special-reports/155232/china-s-ambition-and-the-lessons-from-gac-ma.html

This was one year before the Tiananmen Massacre in the CCP itself.

One basic difference between the US and China regarding armed conflict: In recent decades, when the US interferes/intervenes (justified or not), it is not for gaining territory. When China gets involved militarily, it usually includes adding territory.

some examples of US interventions. Again, I'm not justifying what Uncle Sam does, just here am looking at it in the prism of acquiring territory:

US >>> Korea peninsula, stalemate, no territory gain (NTG)

China >>> invaded Tibet: held territory (HT)

US >>> Vietnam. got beat, left (NTG)

China >>> Taiwan. Threatens invasion for the goal of gaining the island for China

China >>> Hong Kong. Threatens military action if UK colony is not given to China. Note: treaty signed by Chinese royalty ceded HK (south of Boundary Street) to UK "IN PERPETUITY"

US >>> Grenada, former Yugoslavia, East Timor. (NTG)

US >>> Iraq I and II, and Afghanistan. (NTG)

China >>> Scribbles nine dashes on a crude map, claims territory as large as India.

Note: someone opined earlier that territory only includes land. Not true. Territory includes lakes, rivers, and other bodies of water. Maybe Chinese ships will sail up the St. Lawrence Seaway and claim the Great Lakes, justifying it by saying; "it's not a land mass, and I don't see any national flags flying on it, so we figured it's available for the first taker. Plus, if you give me a few moments, I can look in Chinese archives, and we will probably find a drawing of a Chinese junk sailing on the Great Lakes prior to 1500." China can then start terra-forming some islands there, and thereby cement their claims of ownership. Next stop: Chesapeake Bay - lots of oysters, yum.

[55Jay]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

If you think this is bad , head to Danang and visit the families generations after agent orang carpet bombing by the USA military during the Vietnam wars

That's reality for you ....I have posted some earlier information and like I say the Americans businessman who visited mostly cried after the experience and these are CEOs of big companies and later came back with their private contributions which has gone a long way to soothe the pain but the reality is there

China fears such military interference from the USA as their commanders believe in unified bombing to submission which means lots of civilian deaths and casualties generations on after the Politicians have all gone home or retired

As such China continues to talk in the background and understandably like every country wants to pursue their interests first

This is real ...a big country like China may not negotiate on fair terms all the time ...that's true but neither has any of the rest of the world when they deal with world issues.

Eg ... Germany speaks to Greece or Turkey on budgets and refugees recently ...you think they went all fair or more big Brother coming in and saying "come on get real" and negotiated based on what Germany feels is best

Politics stinks ....this who believes in fairies and unicorns will be very uncomfortable in the reality

China and Vietnam. Specifically China killing Vietnamese over some bloody reef.

Soon as you start with, "But the US......", and start lecturing, you lose credibility, and I quit reading.

[LawrenceChee]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

If you think this is bad , head to Danang and visit the families generations after agent orang carpet bombing by the USA military during the Vietnam wars

That's reality for you ....I have posted some earlier information and like I say the Americans businessman who visited mostly cried after the experience and these are CEOs of big companies and later came back with their private contributions which has gone a long way to soothe the pain but the reality is there

China fears such military interference from the USA as their commanders believe in unified bombing to submission which means lots of civilian deaths and casualties generations on after the Politicians have all gone home or retired

As such China continues to talk in the background and understandably like every country wants to pursue their interests first

This is real ...a big country like China may not negotiate on fair terms all the time ...that's true but neither has any of the rest of the world when they deal with world issues.

Eg ... Germany speaks to Greece or Turkey on budgets and refugees recently ...you think they went all fair or more big Brother coming in and saying "come on get real" and negotiated based on what Germany feels is best

Politics stinks ....this who believes in fairies and unicorns will be very uncomfortable in the reality

China and Vietnam. Specifically China killing Vietnamese over some bloody reef.

Soon as you start with, "But the US......", and start lecturing, you lose credibility, and I quit reading.

That's okay if you disagree ....there are many acts here committed that has not been acknowledged or corrected , hence the real fear of the damages done by the US military as they are obliged to listen to their commanders in chief who may not always act with the best of intentions

I know acknowledging the Nam thing is really hard especially when the real victims are all alive and in hospices

Like I say unicorns and fairies ....I have never supported military intervention and will not agree to a China that uses that for SCS with its neighbors

Have a look ....it's not a lecture lots of Americans have came in and gave private help ....it's disturbing to believe this is real ...

http://mobile.reuters.com/news/picture/agent-orange-effect?articleId=USRTR26KON

[boomerangutang]

LC: "I know acknowledging the Nam thing is really hard especially when the real victims are all alive and in hospices"

Ok, here we go, back and forth. A key factor of the VN war is: THE US DIDN'T MAKE ANY TERRITORIAL CLAIMS, before during or after its pull-out. Many regrettable/despicable things happened as a result of that war. Americans would be the first to admit it. Have Chinese ever admitted mistakes re; military escapades? No. That's the difference between group-think (China) and ability to think individually (US).

If we want to toss aspersions back and forth, let's take a moment to look at China's greatest hero of the past 100 years: It's already known that the 20th century was, by far, the bloodiest century in human history. Which leaders contributed to the most deaths? Hitler? No. Stalin? No. The leader with the most blood on his hands is Chairman Mao. And the majority of those deaths resulted from Chinese on Chinese fighting. That's something you'd never read about in Chinese history books. Chinese harbor deep-set hatred towards Japanese soldiers who killed many Chinese. But how do Chinese relate to their countrymen who killed more Chinese? Shouldn't they then hate their own citizens? Doesn't make sense, does it? And what did the American military do during the Pacific War? That's right, they selflessly went to aid the Chinese who were losing massively to the Japanese invaders. Some Americans were killed while aiding the Chinese. When the war was won, and the Americans left, did they ask for any reimbursements, or did they claim any territory? No, of course not.

[55Jay]

The range of issues and points of view on this thread, are fascinating to read.

I had no idea until yesterday (BBC Doc posted last night) that the Chinese machine gunned Viet troops in 1988 and took over a submerged reef out there. There wasn't much context, who started shooting first but man, seeing those Vietnamese standing waist high in water, being mowed down, was hard core.

If you think this is bad , head to Danang and visit the families generations after agent orang carpet bombing by the USA military during the Vietnam wars

That's reality for you ....I have posted some earlier information and like I say the Americans businessman who visited mostly cried after the experience and these are CEOs of big companies and later came back with their private contributions which has gone a long way to soothe the pain but the reality is there

China fears such military interference from the USA as their commanders believe in unified bombing to submission which means lots of civilian deaths and casualties generations on after the Politicians have all gone home or retired

As such China continues to talk in the background and understandably like every country wants to pursue their interests first

This is real ...a big country like China may not negotiate on fair terms all the time ...that's true but neither has any of the rest of the world when they deal with world issues.

Eg ... Germany speaks to Greece or Turkey on budgets and refugees recently ...you think they went all fair or more big Brother coming in and saying "come on get real" and negotiated based on what Germany feels is best

Politics stinks ....this who believes in fairies and unicorns will be very uncomfortable in the reality

China and Vietnam. Specifically China killing Vietnamese over some bloody reef.

Soon as you start with, "But the US......", and start lecturing, you lose credibility, and I quit reading.

That's okay if you disagree ....there are many acts here committed that has not been acknowledged or corrected , hence the real fear of the damages done by the US military as they are obliged to listen to their commanders in chief who may not always act with the best of intentions

I know acknowledging the Nam thing is really hard especially when the real victims are all alive and in hospices

Like I say unicorns and fairies ....I have never supported military intervention and will not agree to a China that uses that for SCS with its neighbors

Have a look ....it's not a lecture lots of Americans have came in and gave private help ....it's disturbing to believe this is real ...

http://mobile.reuters.com/news/picture/agent-orange-effect?articleId=USRTR26KON

Children often attempt to justify or downplay their naughty behaviour by citing all sorts of other equal or worse behaviour, real or imagined. Parents use that to teach a valuable life lesson. A lesson that seems lacking in this part of the world.

You actually think that by repeatedly trotting out some historical fact, I, or anyone, would be silenced with hypocrisy and shame? Does that canned strategy work for you with most gringos? I suspect you think you are clever but you are clumsy and painful to watch as you fumble around, miscalculating so badly.

You would do well to emulate those Americans who are distraught and emotional, instead of using them and the dead and maimed victims, as a convenient punch line to score a point. You've used them once before I think, several pages back. That says a lot about you and the country you seem to be some kind of self-pointed mouth piece and public defender for. Doing that makes you look all the more ridiculous and childish.