US military units to stay for South China Sea patrols

[LawrenceChee]

North Korea is not only a loose cannon and those who think South Korea can defeat them easily should well remember that time may have past but they almost defeated the south and still in an impasse war

In a scenario where you have fatten generals well kept by Kim and soldiers who don't know any better that's a greater danger than a well drilled army like the south

In a real war , I believe the north have an edge as they have nothing to lose , across the border they have unlimited Kim Chi and all the Samsung phones on 5G ...that alone is motivation to head across and plunder the south if it comes to that

China has urged a lot of conversations when it comes to fat Kim because they know this will be a bigger humanitarian disaster than the current Syrian one if the north folks start to run away and Chinese is not willing to play host

[Publicus]

Here we go, back and forth. Cod numbers were down to dangerously low levels, but then concerted efforts were/are being made to reverse that, to wit:

"MCS fisheries officer, Bernadette Clarke, said: "The efforts of fishers and managers have placed cod in the North Sea on the road to recovery. Programmes such as the conservation credits scheme – which rewards fishermen for adopting conservation measures with additional days at sea – together with more effective long-term management plans will hopefully see the fishery continue to recover in the coming years." source: The Guardian Newspaper

As for pollution levels worldwide: There are several different organizations which assess which cities ww are most polluted. They don't all agree (they use different criteria) but all are in Asia: Always in the top 20 are cities in India, China, Iran and Pakistan. I wouldn't want to be part of the crew which goes to take measurements.

Back to China's territory grab and environmental destruction near Phil's coast:

McManus, who has dived on the reefs the Chinese are destroying in the Spratlys, said the Chinese dredging and sand vacuuming on the reefs is devastating.

“The worst thing anyone can do to a coral reef is to bury it under tons of sand and gravel.” he says.

source breakingdefense.com

Just the sort of info that Chinese censors don't want released. They're trying as hard as possible to keep pesky scientific observers like McManus far from the commandeered islands, but sometimes the truth leaks out. I'd venture the Chinese have more full-time censors than the entire population of Singapore.

lol! tthe banks had to be completely shutdown in 1992 and they still cant be re-opened! thats a real bit of conservation to be proud of!!

and complaining about the asian nations pollution as they industrialize is hilarious when it was only a short time ago that american rivers caught on fire and the thames was a sewer

For 30 years Russian Soviet factory ships that mass fished in fleets for months at a time depleted US fishing areas such as the Grand Bank and the Georges Bank off New England and Canada, and the rich fisheries of the same two countries in the NE Pacific (Washington State and British Columbia). So the US in 1976 established a 200-mile exclusive economic zone that was enforced by the Coast Guard so the mass fishing stopped, which had also included Japan.

Significant damage had been done however. The CCP targeted countries of the SCS are presently experiencing the same fisheries aggressions but also serious CCP geostrategic and military aggressions besides.

The contemporaneous UNCILOS adopted the 200 nautical mile EEZ in principle and in fact. Here is some more reality of it all in relation to the South China Sea and CCP's long planned aggressions against its "neighbors" throughout the region...

The United States Is A Seagoing Nation

The U.S. EEZ is the largest in the world, spanning over 13,000 miles of coastline and containing 3.4 million square nautical miles of ocean—larger than the combined land area of all fifty states. (A square nautical mile is equal to 1.3 square miles.)

http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/2011/012711_gcil_maritime_eez_map.pdf

Here is a preview of what many expect to be the core substance of the anticipated unanimous ruling of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague on the Philippines suit against the CCP Dictators in Beijing, coming possibly this month if not next month....

Dr. James Kraska is a Professor of International Law at the Stockton Center for the Study of International Law, U.S. Naval War College. He is also a Distinguished Fellow at the Law of the Sea Institute, University of California Berkeley School of Law, and a Senior Fellow at the Center for Oceans Law and Policy, University of Virginia School of Law

The coastal States surrounding the South China Sea enjoy sovereign rights to the marine resources of their EEZ based on the legal theory of construction of the zone.

The large coastal populations of Vietnam, the Philippines, and the other States in close proximity to the seashore of the South China Sea are in contrast with China’s physically remote population and distant coastline.

Despite physical occupation of selected land features, such as rocks, islets, reefs and cays in the South China Sea, China does not enjoy legal title to territories located there, and therefore lacks concomitant maritime rights to an EEZ generated by them. Regardless of the resolution of the disputes over legal title to the insular rock and island features, however, the five coastal States with large populations in proximity to and adjacent to the South China Sea are entitled to a normal 200-mile EEZ to fulfill the rationale for the origin and purpose of the zone.

http://harvardnsj.org/2015/02/the-lost-dimension-food-security-and-the-south-china-sea-disputes/

The US, Canada, Mexico negotiated mutually agreed terms in accordance with the US's newly declared 200 mile EEZ. Why CCP can't do this with its "neighbors" makes CCP nothing more than the neighbor from hell.

As the professor points out, food security is a basic right afforded seagoing nations by the UNCILOS....

In 1980, China had the fourth largest fishing catch in the world, behind Japan, the USSR, and the United States.[2] Today, China has the third largest merchant marine fleet in the world and it is the world’s top fishing nation, currently taking nearly 20 percent of the total world catch. China has almost 300,000 motorized fishing vessels and approximately eight million fishermen. With a total take of over 17 million tons in 2007, China lands four times the catch of its nearest competitor, and far exceeds the catch of Japan, the United States and other major Pacific maritime powers. The largest catch is from the East China Sea, followed by the South China Sea and Yellow Sea. The catch is increasing, however, only in the South China Sea.

Destroying the coral reefs isn't going to get the Chinese more fish either.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

And he is back ...

although we have to put it to scale, 17 million tons divided by 1.3 billion folks is not that much seafood consumed per person and many still can't afford seafood in China today

Whoever invented all you can eat buffet should be shot to death !

Edited May 8, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[AYJAYDEE]

Here we go, back and forth. Cod numbers were down to dangerously low levels, but then concerted efforts were/are being made to reverse that, to wit:

"MCS fisheries officer, Bernadette Clarke, said: "The efforts of fishers and managers have placed cod in the North Sea on the road to recovery. Programmes such as the conservation credits scheme – which rewards fishermen for adopting conservation measures with additional days at sea – together with more effective long-term management plans will hopefully see the fishery continue to recover in the coming years." source: The Guardian Newspaper

As for pollution levels worldwide: There are several different organizations which assess which cities ww are most polluted. They don't all agree (they use different criteria) but all are in Asia: Always in the top 20 are cities in India, China, Iran and Pakistan. I wouldn't want to be part of the crew which goes to take measurements.

Back to China's territory grab and environmental destruction near Phil's coast:

McManus, who has dived on the reefs the Chinese are destroying in the Spratlys, said the Chinese dredging and sand vacuuming on the reefs is devastating.

“The worst thing anyone can do to a coral reef is to bury it under tons of sand and gravel.” he says.

source breakingdefense.com

Just the sort of info that Chinese censors don't want released. They're trying as hard as possible to keep pesky scientific observers like McManus far from the commandeered islands, but sometimes the truth leaks out. I'd venture the Chinese have more full-time censors than the entire population of Singapore.

lol! tthe banks had to be completely shutdown in 1992 and they still cant be re-opened! thats a real bit of conservation to be proud of!!

and complaining about the asian nations pollution as they industrialize is hilarious when it was only a short time ago that american rivers caught on fire and the thames was a sewer

For 30 years Russian Soviet factory ships that mass fished in fleets for months at a time depleted US fishing areas such as the Grand Bank and the Georges Bank off New England and Canada, and the rich fisheries of the same two countries in the NE Pacific (Washington State and British Columbia). So the US in 1976 established a 200-mile exclusive economic zone that was enforced by the Coast Guard so the mass fishing stopped, which had also included Japan.

Significant damage had been done however. The CCP targeted countries of the SCS are presently experiencing the same fisheries aggressions but also serious CCP geostrategic and military aggressions besides.

The contemporaneous UNCILOS adopted the 200 nautical mile EEZ in principle and in fact. Here is some more reality of it all in relation to the South China Sea and CCP's long planned aggressions against its "neighbors" throughout the region...

The United States Is A Seagoing Nation

The U.S. EEZ is the largest in the world, spanning over 13,000 miles of coastline and containing 3.4 million square nautical miles of ocean—larger than the combined land area of all fifty states. (A square nautical mile is equal to 1.3 square miles.)

http://www.gc.noaa.gov/documents/2011/012711_gcil_maritime_eez_map.pdf

Here is a preview of what many expect to be the core substance of the anticipated unanimous ruling of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague on the Philippines suit against the CCP Dictators in Beijing, coming possibly this month if not next month....

Dr. James Kraska is a Professor of International Law at the Stockton Center for the Study of International Law, U.S. Naval War College. He is also a Distinguished Fellow at the Law of the Sea Institute, University of California Berkeley School of Law, and a Senior Fellow at the Center for Oceans Law and Policy, University of Virginia School of Law

The coastal States surrounding the South China Sea enjoy sovereign rights to the marine resources of their EEZ based on the legal theory of construction of the zone.

The large coastal populations of Vietnam, the Philippines, and the other States in close proximity to the seashore of the South China Sea are in contrast with China’s physically remote population and distant coastline.

Despite physical occupation of selected land features, such as rocks, islets, reefs and cays in the South China Sea, China does not enjoy legal title to territories located there, and therefore lacks concomitant maritime rights to an EEZ generated by them. Regardless of the resolution of the disputes over legal title to the insular rock and island features, however, the five coastal States with large populations in proximity to and adjacent to the South China Sea are entitled to a normal 200-mile EEZ to fulfill the rationale for the origin and purpose of the zone.

http://harvardnsj.org/2015/02/the-lost-dimension-food-security-and-the-south-china-sea-disputes/

The US, Canada, Mexico negotiated mutually agreed terms in accordance with the US's newly declared 200 mile EEZ. Why CCP can't do this with its "neighbors" makes CCP nothing more than the neighbor from hell.

As the professor points out, food security is a basic right afforded seagoing nations by the UNCILOS....

In 1980, China had the fourth largest fishing catch in the world, behind Japan, the USSR, and the United States.[2] Today, China has the third largest merchant marine fleet in the world and it is the world’s top fishing nation, currently taking nearly 20 percent of the total world catch. China has almost 300,000 motorized fishing vessels and approximately eight million fishermen. With a total take of over 17 million tons in 2007, China lands four times the catch of its nearest competitor, and far exceeds the catch of Japan, the United States and other major Pacific maritime powers. The largest catch is from the East China Sea, followed by the South China Sea and Yellow Sea. The catch is increasing, however, only in the South China Sea.

Destroying the coral reefs isn't going to get the Chinese more fish either.

Lol! i wasnt justt the russians. portugese, spanish, canadian, american were out there ttoo. as soon as canada chased the portugese and spaniards off the banks, the canadian government instituted subsidies for canadians to build massive new ships to plunder the same area.

[keemapoot]

And he is back ...

although we have to put it to scale, 17 million tons divided by 1.3 billion folks is not that much seafood consumed per person and many still can't afford seafood in China today

Whoever invented all you can eat buffet should be shot to death !

Lawrence, was that you in that video going around at the chaotic buffet in Chiang Mai with Chinese pushing and shoveling mounds of shrimp with plates onto their platters?

[LawrenceChee]

And he is back ...

although we have to put it to scale, 17 million tons divided by 1.3 billion folks is not that much seafood consumed per person and many still can't afford seafood in China today

Whoever invented all you can eat buffet should be shot to death !

Lawrence, was that you in that video going around at the chaotic buffet in Chiang Mai with Chinese pushing and shoveling mounds of shrimp with plates onto their platters?

I was probably the one firing the chefs !!!! I hate food losses and food cost is 40% of all operating cost in a well run hotel

That Chef should have changed the dishes anyone knows when the crowds runs for the shrimps , that's when you continuously put out the vegetable dishes and slow the momentum )))

Hahahhaha first time I Guess those empire hotel guys seen those ...in Shanghai and Beijing this is common strategy and it works

[Publicus]

Pub, you seem to be trimming back your hawkishness. You went from proposing a blockade from Shanghai to Hong Kong, and talking everything short of full engagement to now a more reasonable position. So, these threads are good if they succeed in bringing people to more reasonable positions.

The coming Hague ruling, together with the cooperation we are now seeing among Philippines, Malaysia, Indo on terrorism and sea piracy, together with US commitment and Japanese support will have gain some critical mass in bringing allies together to bring pressure on China with respect to the Philippines claim.

There will be a different fight with each player, Vietnam, etc., and we will have to see how much the Hague ruling gives to other parties.

I'm pretty confident there will be a gradual, though hard-fought concession by China in most of these areas, with some sort of mutual use agreements.

Your first and softly-toned paragraph is delusional rather than deceptive.

You misinterpret my correcting of a guy who thinks the US is going to launch missiles against CCP cities and population centers. This is not a modification of my position. The facts are that CCP is consciously and willfully against international law in its SCS aggressions, same as CCP had been wrong in the East Sea against Japan where CCP has since gone silent.

The Franklin Green Team here continues to dismiss that the CCP are but another dynasty of Chinese emperors, excepting that CCP wear business suits. Same however as all Chinese emperors of the delusional Middle Kingdom, the present dynasty of CCP emperors do not compromise with foreign devils....

Arbitration verdict will not change China's sovereignty over South China Sea: FM

Xinhua - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/07/c_135340215.htm

Like 'coiling a spring': Chinese diplomat warns countries against pressuring Beijing over South China Sea

South China Morning Post - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201605070025.html

China refuses to drop S China Sea claims, says pending UN tribunal decision 'illegal'

https://www.rt.com/news/342224-south-china-sea-un/

"Unrealistic" to force China to concede on South China Sea: foreign ministry

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/06/c_135340080.htm

Won't Accept Court Decision on South China Sea, Says China

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/won-t-accept-un-court-verdict-on-south-china-sea-says-china/story-CEnKj4aovxqWdPKZl8VV0M.html

The Real Danger in the South China Sea is Repeating Assumptions Until They Become Truth

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-real-danger-the-south-china-sea-repeating-assumptions-16077

Chinese state media blast U.S. Navy for 'menacing' China's sea claims

Won't backdown from SCS claims whatever UN tribunal verdict: China

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52153595.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yet some who are softheaded about CCP might claim this is the CCP position going in to negotiations. There are no negotiations the CCP hasn't won before they began. So none period.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Publicus

[AYJAYDEE]

Pub, you seem to be trimming back your hawkishness. You went from proposing a blockade from Shanghai to Hong Kong, and talking everything short of full engagement to now a more reasonable position. So, these threads are good if they succeed in bringing people to more reasonable positions.

The coming Hague ruling, together with the cooperation we are now seeing among Philippines, Malaysia, Indo on terrorism and sea piracy, together with US commitment and Japanese support will have gain some critical mass in bringing allies together to bring pressure on China with respect to the Philippines claim.

There will be a different fight with each player, Vietnam, etc., and we will have to see how much the Hague ruling gives to other parties.

I'm pretty confident there will be a gradual, though hard-fought concession by China in most of these areas, with some sort of mutual use agreements.

Your first and softly-toned paragraph is delusional rather than deceptive.

You misinterpret my correcting of a guy who thinks the US is going to launch missiles against CCP cities and population centers. This is not a modification of my position. The facts are that CCP is consciously and willfully against international law in its SCS aggressions, same as CCP had been wrong in the East Sea against Japan where CCP has since gone silent.

The Franklin Green Team here continues to dismiss that the CCP are but another dynasty of Chinese emperors, excepting that CCP wear business suits. Same however as all Chinese emperors of the delusional Middle Kingdom, the present dynasty of CCP emperors do not compromise with foreign devils....

Arbitration verdict will not change China's sovereignty over South China Sea: FM

Xinhua - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/07/c_135340215.htm

Like 'coiling a spring': Chinese diplomat warns countries against pressuring Beijing over South China Sea

South China Morning Post - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201605070025.html

China refuses to drop S China Sea claims, says pending UN tribunal decision 'illegal'

https://www.rt.com/news/342224-south-china-sea-un/

"Unrealistic" to force China to concede on South China Sea: foreign ministry

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/06/c_135340080.htm

Won't Accept Court Decision on South China Sea, Says China

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/won-t-accept-un-court-verdict-on-south-china-sea-says-china/story-CEnKj4aovxqWdPKZl8VV0M.html

The Real Danger in the South China Sea is Repeating Assumptions Until They Become Truth

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-real-danger-the-south-china-sea-repeating-assumptions-16077

Chinese state media blast U.S. Navy for 'menacing' China's sea claims

Won't backdown from SCS claims whatever UN tribunal verdict: China

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52153595.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yet some who are softheaded about CCP might claim this is the CCP position going in to negotiations. There are no negotiations the CCP hasn't won before they began. So none period.

why isn't America against all nations in violation of international law violation rulings? is it only a violation when its not their friends?

[keemapoot]

Regardless of whether we light our cigars with $100 Franklins or not, it's better to make trade, not war. I seem to recall someone posting that he went coast to coast demonstrating against the Vietnam war or something, and those people in that movement seemed to have a similar slogan if I remember correctly, something about love, not war. But, then all idealistic hippies grow up and even Timothy Leary made video games for money.

There are few who consider global businessmen "softheaded" when it comes to the CCP, and I've certainly never met one. Old China hands understand perfectly the movements and motivations of the Middle Kingdom, and know that everything finds an equilibrium in dealing with China. Some of us have been steeped in the workings of the CCP leadership for much of our lives, and unlike some, we did not "read it in a book."

China always comes around to reason, despite all this hand-wringing, and sabre-rattling by some of the members on this thread.

[Publicus]

And he is back ...

although we have to put it to scale, 17 million tons divided by 1.3 billion folks is not that much seafood consumed per person and many still can't afford seafood in China today

Whoever invented all you can eat buffet should be shot to death !

CCP is not an island nation such as the Philippines or Indonesia are, to include Taiwan, Japan, the Singapore city-state. Nor does China have as much seacoast borderline as a part of its total area as Vietnam does, or Malaysia. Moreover, China is far more distant from its seized islands and reefs etc than any Asean country except Vietnam yet CCP's nine-dashed line cuts through the Gulf of Tonken.

And with 20% of the world's fishing catch, that alone makes China a voracious vacuum cleaner of global food resources. It is menacing the food security and economic stability of the maritime Asean nations and of other maritime countries such as Taiwan and Japan; South Korea too.

If CCP are going to barge in and swipe the entire buffet while holding the consumers at gunpoint, then defy the law when the law comes to get 'em, CCP and its Franklin Green Team are going to have to face the Swat team instead of the regular cops on the beat.

The U.S. Navy’s stepped up patrols in the South China Sea are getting under the skin of some Chinese leaders.

“In their views, U.S. military involvement in the South China Sea, especially U.S. Navy's freedom of navigation operations, have complicated the dispute and emboldened other claimants especially the Philippines to stand up against China,” Zhu said.

“The USS John C. Stennis’ port call on Hong Kong was denied exactly because of U.S. Navy's more frequent and active patrols in the region that are challenging Beijing's position,” he said. “This is a political statement. I think Beijing wants to see a decrease or more low-profile U.S. military activities in the region.”

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/05/05/stennis-hong-kong-port-visit-canceled-global-times-editorial/83971974/

Edited May 8, 2016 by Publicus

[Credo]

Pub, you seem to be trimming back your hawkishness. You went from proposing a blockade from Shanghai to Hong Kong, and talking everything short of full engagement to now a more reasonable position. So, these threads are good if they succeed in bringing people to more reasonable positions.

The coming Hague ruling, together with the cooperation we are now seeing among Philippines, Malaysia, Indo on terrorism and sea piracy, together with US commitment and Japanese support will have gain some critical mass in bringing allies together to bring pressure on China with respect to the Philippines claim.

There will be a different fight with each player, Vietnam, etc., and we will have to see how much the Hague ruling gives to other parties.

I'm pretty confident there will be a gradual, though hard-fought concession by China in most of these areas, with some sort of mutual use agreements.

Your first and softly-toned paragraph is delusional rather than deceptive.

You misinterpret my correcting of a guy who thinks the US is going to launch missiles against CCP cities and population centers. This is not a modification of my position. The facts are that CCP is consciously and willfully against international law in its SCS aggressions, same as CCP had been wrong in the East Sea against Japan where CCP has since gone silent.

The Franklin Green Team here continues to dismiss that the CCP are but another dynasty of Chinese emperors, excepting that CCP wear business suits. Same however as all Chinese emperors of the delusional Middle Kingdom, the present dynasty of CCP emperors do not compromise with foreign devils....

Arbitration verdict will not change China's sovereignty over South China Sea: FM

Xinhua - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/07/c_135340215.htm

Like 'coiling a spring': Chinese diplomat warns countries against pressuring Beijing over South China Sea

South China Morning Post - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201605070025.html

China refuses to drop S China Sea claims, says pending UN tribunal decision 'illegal'

https://www.rt.com/news/342224-south-china-sea-un/

"Unrealistic" to force China to concede on South China Sea: foreign ministry

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/06/c_135340080.htm

Won't Accept Court Decision on South China Sea, Says China

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/won-t-accept-un-court-verdict-on-south-china-sea-says-china/story-CEnKj4aovxqWdPKZl8VV0M.html

The Real Danger in the South China Sea is Repeating Assumptions Until They Become Truth

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-real-danger-the-south-china-sea-repeating-assumptions-16077

Chinese state media blast U.S. Navy for 'menacing' China's sea claims

Won't backdown from SCS claims whatever UN tribunal verdict: China

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52153595.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yet some who are softheaded about CCP might claim this is the CCP position going in to negotiations. There are no negotiations the CCP hasn't won before they began. So none period.

why isn't America against all nations in violation of international law violation rulings? is it only a violation when its not their friends?

The US does not have interests in all areas where there are violations of international law and it doesn't have military agreements with countries in all areas. The interest and the military agreements are the basis of concern.

[AYJAYDEE]

Pub, you seem to be trimming back your hawkishness. You went from proposing a blockade from Shanghai to Hong Kong, and talking everything short of full engagement to now a more reasonable position. So, these threads are good if they succeed in bringing people to more reasonable positions.

The coming Hague ruling, together with the cooperation we are now seeing among Philippines, Malaysia, Indo on terrorism and sea piracy, together with US commitment and Japanese support will have gain some critical mass in bringing allies together to bring pressure on China with respect to the Philippines claim.

There will be a different fight with each player, Vietnam, etc., and we will have to see how much the Hague ruling gives to other parties.

I'm pretty confident there will be a gradual, though hard-fought concession by China in most of these areas, with some sort of mutual use agreements.

Your first and softly-toned paragraph is delusional rather than deceptive.

You misinterpret my correcting of a guy who thinks the US is going to launch missiles against CCP cities and population centers. This is not a modification of my position. The facts are that CCP is consciously and willfully against international law in its SCS aggressions, same as CCP had been wrong in the East Sea against Japan where CCP has since gone silent.

The Franklin Green Team here continues to dismiss that the CCP are but another dynasty of Chinese emperors, excepting that CCP wear business suits. Same however as all Chinese emperors of the delusional Middle Kingdom, the present dynasty of CCP emperors do not compromise with foreign devils....

Arbitration verdict will not change China's sovereignty over South China Sea: FM

Xinhua - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/07/c_135340215.htm

Like 'coiling a spring': Chinese diplomat warns countries against pressuring Beijing over South China Sea

South China Morning Post - ‎May 6, 2016‎

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201605070025.html

China refuses to drop S China Sea claims, says pending UN tribunal decision 'illegal'

https://www.rt.com/news/342224-south-china-sea-un/

"Unrealistic" to force China to concede on South China Sea: foreign ministry

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-05/06/c_135340080.htm

Won't Accept Court Decision on South China Sea, Says China

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world/won-t-accept-un-court-verdict-on-south-china-sea-says-china/story-CEnKj4aovxqWdPKZl8VV0M.html

The Real Danger in the South China Sea is Repeating Assumptions Until They Become Truth

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-real-danger-the-south-china-sea-repeating-assumptions-16077

Chinese state media blast U.S. Navy for 'menacing' China's sea claims

Won't backdown from SCS claims whatever UN tribunal verdict: China

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52153595.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Yet some who are softheaded about CCP might claim this is the CCP position going in to negotiations. There are no negotiations the CCP hasn't won before they began. So none period.

why isn't America against all nations in violation of international law violation rulings? is it only a violation when its not their friends?

The US does not have interests in all areas where there are violations of international law and it doesn't have military agreements with countries in all areas. The interest and the military agreements are the basis of concern.

finally someone honest enough to admit that, in spite of the outraged posturing, morality has nothing to do with it! pure self interest! lol

[Publicus]

Regardless of whether we light our cigars with $100 Franklins or not, it's better to make trade, not war. I seem to recall someone posting that he went coast to coast demonstrating against the Vietnam war or something, and those people in that movement seemed to have a similar slogan if I remember correctly, something about love, not war. But, then all idealistic hippies grow up and even Timothy Leary made video games for money.

There are few who consider global businessmen "softheaded" when it comes to the CCP, and I've certainly never met one. Old China hands understand perfectly the movements and motivations of the Middle Kingdom, and know that everything finds an equilibrium in dealing with China. Some of us have been steeped in the workings of the CCP leadership for much of our lives, and unlike some, we did not "read it in a book."

China always comes around to reason, despite all this hand-wringing, and sabre-rattling by some of the members on this thread.

The Franklin Green Team is interested in the green and in the green only.

When this poster references the anti-Vietnam war demonstrations he speaks from a political standpoint, not as a part of the "hippie" culture of the time. While the two groupings were parallel, neither grouping held much regard of the other or much associated at the time, although each former grouping have found a mutual and common ground since, such as at these threads (and in many other ways).

Some of us who post here have experience living and working in the CCP China...a significant experience of time and quality in the place. A good number here have the experience and the quality of it.

The Franklin Green Team assumes it has the high ground which means they've been chasing the green for much too long while busily queuing for the new national and nativist serving of a cold won ton war.

Oh, got a light?

[Publicus]

Self-interest is legitimate and it is moral.

It is the nature of one's self-interest that merits examination and analysis.

CCP Dictators act in their self-interest, USA and the West with allies and partners act in their common and broad self-interest as well as in specific terms of self-interest.

The self interest of the delusional Middle Kingdom is a 5000 year dictatorship of authoritarian elites, autocrats, aristocrats and punishing censors that pursue a perverse character of mind control, versus the modern world. Neither side is pure but one side is in fact decrepit and destructive. Money has nothing in particular to do with it except ahem, for its color.

[AYJAYDEE]

Self-interest is legitimate and it is moral.

It is the nature of one's self-interest that merits examination and analysis.

CCP Dictators act in their self-interest, USA and the West with allies and partners act in their common and broad self-interest as well as in specific terms of self-interest.

The self interest of the delusional Middle Kingdom is a 5000 year dictatorship of authoritarian elites, autocrats, aristocrats and punishing censors that pursue a perverse character of mind control, versus the modern world. Neither side is pure but one side is in fact decrepit and destructive. Money has nothing in particular to do with it except ahem, for its color.

well the nature of this self interest stinks to high heaven!

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

[Publicus]

Self-interest is legitimate and it is moral.

It is the nature of one's self-interest that merits examination and analysis.

CCP Dictators act in their self-interest, USA and the West with allies and partners act in their common and broad self-interest as well as in specific terms of self-interest.

The self interest of the delusional Middle Kingdom is a 5000 year dictatorship of authoritarian elites, autocrats, aristocrats and punishing censors that pursue a perverse character of mind control, versus the modern world. Neither side is pure but one side is in fact decrepit and destructive. Money has nothing in particular to do with it except ahem, for its color.

well the nature of this self interest stinks to high heaven!

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

I'm not trying to please you and if you're trying to discourage me due to your own deficit of stereotyping you can forget it.

Anyone who thinks he's dealing with a Pasha from the Zhivago novel by Pasternak needs to down a stiff shot of reality. The CCP reality and self-interest is a 21st century fascism. USA has its faults and flaws but it is not the CCP. Quite the opposite in fact despite the shrills that constantly pulsate from the nihilists over there.

Life is not Manichean. It is a choice of the lesser imperfections in the hope of progress over the long term. It is fundamentally the choice of optimism over pessimism, not the choice of purity over evil. Nihilism has no place because in it because nihilism is in fact the moribund state and condition of being, i.e., of nothingness. Nothingness one line at a time.

[AYJAYDEE]

Self-interest is legitimate and it is moral.

It is the nature of one's self-interest that merits examination and analysis.

CCP Dictators act in their self-interest, USA and the West with allies and partners act in their common and broad self-interest as well as in specific terms of self-interest.

The self interest of the delusional Middle Kingdom is a 5000 year dictatorship of authoritarian elites, autocrats, aristocrats and punishing censors that pursue a perverse character of mind control, versus the modern world. Neither side is pure but one side is in fact decrepit and destructive. Money has nothing in particular to do with it except ahem, for its color.

well the nature of this self interest stinks to high heaven!

http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

I'm not trying to please you and if you're trying to discourage me due to your own deficit of stereotyping you can forget it.

Anyone who thinks he's dealing with a Pasha from the Zhivago novel by Pasternak needs to down a stiff shot of reality. The CCP reality and self-interest is a 21st century fascism. USA has its faults and flaws but it is not the CCP. Quite the opposite in fact despite the shrills that constantly pulsate from the nihilists over there.

Life is not Manichean. It is a choice of the lesser imperfections in the hope of progress over the long term. It is fundamentally the choice of optimism over pessimism, not the choice of purity over evil. Nihilism has no place because in it because nihilism is in fact the moribund state and condition of being, i.e., of nothingness. Nothingness one line at a time.

no one said it was the CCP but pretending to be outraged by behaviour you have spent years indulging in yourself is a non starter. america no longer has moral authority and all your wishing wont change that.

[Publicus]

Reiterate that nihilism goes nowhere because it is a nothingness from nowhere.

While the critics and angry birds post only against the USA, they of course ignore and dismiss the wrongs of the CCP. There is no legitimacy to only attack the post European Enlightenment world while granting the 5000 year old decrepit world of the emperors a free pass on everything.

It's a deficit of behavior if not a dementia of sorts.

[AYJAYDEE]

Reiterate that nihilism goes nowhere because it is a nothingness from nowhere.

While the critics and angry birds post only against the USA, they of course ignore and dismiss the wrongs of the CCP. There is no legitimacy to only attack the post European Enlightenment world while granting the 5000 year old decrepit world of the emperors a free pass on everything.

It's a deficit of behavior if not a dementia of sorts.

when youve run out of seam, attack the poster. you do that a lot. but as for giving china free pass? sorry, aint happening

[Publicus]

Reiterate that nihilism goes nowhere because it is a nothingness from nowhere.

While the critics and angry birds post only against the USA, they of course ignore and dismiss the wrongs of the CCP. There is no legitimacy to only attack the post European Enlightenment world while granting the 5000 year old decrepit world of the emperors a free pass on everything.

It's a deficit of behavior if not a dementia of sorts.

when youve run out of seam, attack the poster. you do that a lot. but as for giving china free pass? sorry, aint happening

Attack the poster is in fact what you have been doing (but you're not the only one losing the arguments in this way), as in your post to the thread #588 right above this one and in many posts since you fumbled your way to begin making posts to the topic.

You have yet to say anything pertaining to the substance of the thread or to the topic, the SCS. All you have are one-liners about the posts and one poster in particular, almost exclusively.

Chill and get some gravitas plse thx. Lighting a Cubano with a Franklin has more gravitas than only one-liners about the posts and the poster.

[AYJAYDEE]

Reiterate that nihilism goes nowhere because it is a nothingness from nowhere.

While the critics and angry birds post only against the USA, they of course ignore and dismiss the wrongs of the CCP. There is no legitimacy to only attack the post European Enlightenment world while granting the 5000 year old decrepit world of the emperors a free pass on everything.

It's a deficit of behavior if not a dementia of sorts.

when youve run out of seam, attack the poster. you do that a lot. but as for giving china free pass? sorry, aint happening

Attack the poster is in fact what you have been doing (but you're not the only one losing the arguments in this way), as in your post to the thread #588 right above this one and in many posts since you fumbled your way to begin making posts to the topic.

You have yet to say anything pertaining to the substance of the thread or to the topic, the SCS. All you have are one-liners about the posts and one poster in particular, almost exclusively.

Chill and get some gravitas plse thx. Lighting a Cubano with a Franklin has more gravitas than only one-liners about the posts and the poster.

sorry pal, the "you" refers tothe american government and their faux outrage at china's behaviour. the substance of the thread is american reaction to chinas behaviour. I love commenting on american hypocrisy. and one liners are all that are necessary to counter your endless blah blah.

[Scott]

An off-topic graph was removed. If you are going to post something, please explain it's relevance to the discussion.

[keemapoot]

Looks like Japan, after offering assistance to Phils, and now offering assistance to Vietnam in terms of new ships to strength maritime security. Though there is a defense cooperation agreement in place, it's hard to say if this is directly related to China's movements in SCS, but Japan does seem to be a bit more active with cozying up to the affected SE Asia nations.

Japan is now considering Vietnam's request for brand new ships to strengthen the country’s maritime security, Japan's foreign ministry deputy spokesman Masato Otaka told reporters in Hanoi on Thursday.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/politics/japan-considers-providing-new-ships-to-vietnams-coast-guard-61886.html

[boomerangutang]

why isn't America against all nations in violation of international law violation rulings? is it only a violation when its not their friends?

I'll venture to answer that, though I can't speak for the State Dept or the Pentagon.

The US fumbles sometimes, but generally, it tries to address contentious issues with fair-mindededness. It's not grabbing territory, no matter what else it's perceived to be doing. China is grabbing territory. It can try to divert attention, gloss it over, waste time, make excuses, submit ridiculous little maps with hatched lines, ......but it is grabbing other countries' territories, plain and simple. It's not doing so with saber rattling, but instead just shows up unannounced, plants its flag, re-names the territory and starts terraforming. In short order there are airstrips, gun/missile emplacements, docks, dredging, hundreds of tons of concrete, reef destruction, and then warnings to any ships or planes in the vicinity to steer clear.

When one type of ant attempt to enter and occupy the nest of another type of ant, they encounter dynamic resistance. Same if a wolf tried to enter and occupy a badger's den. (badgers are contentious m.f's by the way)

The US has friendly relations with all the affected countries: Philippines, VN, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia. China was somehow able to bribe Brunei to its camp, but does that make Brunei an adversary of all its neighbors? I hope not. When a friend sees a friend's territory get commandeered, that friend is going to stand by its friend.

That's why China wants to do two primary things: It wants to waste time (the more time which rolls by, the more China can terraform and militarize the islands), and if there are any discussions with countries, it only wants to discuss things one-on-one. China knows it's easier to make deals one on one, than facing a coalition. For example, One country may say "OK" to losing its islands in exchange for a % of oil revenue. China would probably agree. Another country may bow to the might of China and say, "ok, take our islands, but pay something." China would say, "how much?" Whatever the price, China would bargain it down and then gladly pay it.

For many obvious reason, China doesn't want the US involved on any level. Though China didn't mind the US helping to fight the Japanese (and eventually bomb the Japanese into submission) when China had its back to the wall - 70 years ago. What condition would China (and SE Asia and the Koreas) be in now if the US hadn't come to their rescue? It's possible they would all be vassals of Japan and speaking Japanese and studying Japanese history in their schools.

Edited May 8, 2016 by boomerangutang

[keemapoot]

Regardless of whether we light our cigars with $100 Franklins or not, it's better to make trade, not war. I seem to recall someone posting that he went coast to coast demonstrating against the Vietnam war or something, and those people in that movement seemed to have a similar slogan if I remember correctly, something about love, not war. But, then all idealistic hippies grow up and even Timothy Leary made video games for money.

There are few who consider global businessmen "softheaded" when it comes to the CCP, and I've certainly never met one. Old China hands understand perfectly the movements and motivations of the Middle Kingdom, and know that everything finds an equilibrium in dealing with China. Some of us have been steeped in the workings of the CCP leadership for much of our lives, and unlike some, we did not "read it in a book."

China always comes around to reason, despite all this hand-wringing, and sabre-rattling by some of the members on this thread.

The Franklin Green Team is interested in the green and in the green only.

When this poster references the anti-Vietnam war demonstrations he speaks from a political standpoint, not as a part of the "hippie" culture of the time. While the two groupings were parallel, neither grouping held much regard of the other or much associated at the time, although each former grouping have found a mutual and common ground since, such as at these threads (and in many other ways).

Some of us who post here have experience living and working in the CCP China...a significant experience of time and quality in the place. A good number here have the experience and the quality of it.

The Franklin Green Team assumes it has the high ground which means they've been chasing the green for much too long while busily queuing for the new national and nativist serving of a cold won ton war.

Oh, got a light?

Sure, just drop by the Cigar Divan at the Mandarin next time you're in Hong Kong and ask for me. I might even introduce you to some real NPC or CPCC HK delegates and you can see for yourself that they don't bite, and that foreign devil businessmen are not cramming 'Franklins' into their pockets while puffing away.

BTW, nobody calls them Franklins, we mostly call them C-notes, or maybe Benjamins or Benjies, but never Franklin.

[Publicus]

Regardless of whether we light our cigars with $100 Franklins or not, it's better to make trade, not war. I seem to recall someone posting that he went coast to coast demonstrating against the Vietnam war or something, and those people in that movement seemed to have a similar slogan if I remember correctly, something about love, not war. But, then all idealistic hippies grow up and even Timothy Leary made video games for money.

There are few who consider global businessmen "softheaded" when it comes to the CCP, and I've certainly never met one. Old China hands understand perfectly the movements and motivations of the Middle Kingdom, and know that everything finds an equilibrium in dealing with China. Some of us have been steeped in the workings of the CCP leadership for much of our lives, and unlike some, we did not "read it in a book."

China always comes around to reason, despite all this hand-wringing, and sabre-rattling by some of the members on this thread.

The Franklin Green Team is interested in the green and in the green only.

When this poster references the anti-Vietnam war demonstrations he speaks from a political standpoint, not as a part of the "hippie" culture of the time. While the two groupings were parallel, neither grouping held much regard of the other or much associated at the time, although each former grouping have found a mutual and common ground since, such as at these threads (and in many other ways).

Some of us who post here have experience living and working in the CCP China...a significant experience of time and quality in the place. A good number here have the experience and the quality of it.

The Franklin Green Team assumes it has the high ground which means they've been chasing the green for much too long while busily queuing for the new national and nativist serving of a cold won ton war.

Oh, got a light?

Sure, just drop by the Cigar Divan at the Mandarin next time you're in Hong Kong and ask for me. I might even introduce you to some real NPC or CPCC HK delegates and you can see for yourself that they don't bite, and that foreign devil businessmen are not cramming 'Franklins' into their pockets while puffing away.

BTW, nobody calls them Franklins, we mostly call them C-notes, or maybe Benjamins or Benjies, but never Franklin.

Well aware for more than three score of years thx of a C-note (100) etc but at a global forum this poster prefers to simply use the actual name on the Franklin note which includes the universally recognised etched likeness of ole Ben. What does strike me however is that the comment is another inexpensive instance of how youse guyz will say anything just to be carrying on as usual.

The attitude of the business type does continue in the posts however, i.e., only youse guyz who are involved with the Party in making the big green bucks know what is going on and what is going on is just fine and harmless.That any world view that is not sycophantic is invalid and up in the clouds. Youse guyz on the Green Team are beginning to look more hopeless than I'd originally experienced in interacting with youse and your CCP benefactor bosses in the CCP over the years.

The Mandarin is of course one of many excellent retreats in HKG as the people of HKG are another dimension and universe of a vibrant lifestyle, in contrast to the dullard numbnuts of the culturally intellectually and politically barren mainland population. HKG does in a multitude of ways remind me of NYC to include the bridges, islands, waterways but not limited to infrastructure as the bustling and the intellects of each NYC and HKG are quick and sharp as the bucks flow in each place like the proverbial milk and honey.

I'll next be going through HKG in July so I'll try to make some effort to stop by the Mandarin to cut through the smoke to its source. I can always approach the info desk to ask for "Poot" or just plain ole "Keemmi". I'm sure you're well known and have standing there so fear not cause I can flash some green to show I'm worthy of associating with the big bois and your big Party bucks.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

Business is essential to any economies / countries and we expand jobs and bring contributions.

It's not a dirty word and the assumption that all of us make illicit money is incorrect and a knee jerk jealous reaction

When you do swing to the Mandarin , if you can't find Keemapoot , head to Man Wah my fav Cantonese restaurant , I will ask them to leave a roasted duck for you and I will pick up the tab.

Will leave it under the reservation of Comrade P.

Set menus start at USD$200+++ so you only need 3 Franklins if you upgrade to a nicer tea ...just 3 and you can be with the big boys for a meal that's a nice treat

[LawrenceChee]

I think we need a new topic

[Publicus]

I think we need a new topic

Indeed, can't stand the heat stay away from the kitchen where the CCP's goose is already cooked.

With the Permanent Court of Arbitration ruling coming down any week now CCP is having to temper somewhat its adventurous belligerence and bellicosity against its "neighbors". Too late however for the CCP's terrible rep in the region as the neighbor from hell.

CCP aggressions in the SCS have now set in motion an inevitable and unavoidable clash.

US Pacific Fleet intelligence indicates that China’s seven new islands at the southern end of the Spratly Islands and a new naval facility at Scarborough could provide Beijing the ability to effectively control the freedom of navigation and free access to markets for nations which ply the waters of the South China Sea. Beijing’s announcement that its drills in the South China Sea will involve forces both in the Spratly as well as the Paracel islands, as well as recent confirmation by a source close to the PLAN who said Beijing would begin reclaiming Scarborough shoal, appears to vindicate US suspicions.

http://atimes.com/2016/05/the-shifting-contours-of-chinas-maritime-strategy/

Centrally and vitally, navigation through the SCS includes ME oil to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and all of Asean as well as the CCP itself. All of this is a bad moon rising.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

Wow it's amazing how much USA fleet intelligence is available in TVF

Should be asking the CCP secret intelligence service to start surfing here ...spying is tiring business but here the commentary is free

Roasted goose is so delicious ...can't see anyone saying no to that.