SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[rogeroc]

Another part of the surprise on the 'British is best' views being expressed on this Brexit topic is that i have been reading the various topics on Thai Visa for over 6 months. However (with the exception of one prominent poster) i have never heard anybody say a good word about British women and they make up over half our population. So we love our country but not our women! I stand to be corrected but i think it has been British governments (not the EU) that has turned our country into a matriarchy.

[rogeroc]

I respect your viewpoint, because I, myself, am no longer "proud" to be British, and find it difficult to identify with most of the

British inhabitants of Britain, in that, these days, they are such a motley and disparate group of people. However, that said,

how does one identify with a "European" (meaning Continental Europe as opposed to the United Kingdom)? There is no

"profile" to identify with, no "typical European", in my view. The Dutch are as different to the Italians, as the Poles are to the

Romanians.

And therein lies the rub. It will take many generations, if ever, for this artificial grouping of peoples and countries to ever feel

truly "united". It is the utmost experiment in social engineering imaginable, and I cannot foresee a time when Europe,

in its guise as the EU, will every be coherent

MultiQuote

But is is really necessary for these groups to be truly united as long as there are basic common goals. I personal think strong 'Nationalism' is potential dangerous (look how warmongering the USA has been over the past decades) and that being 'Inclusive' is better.

[allanos]

It would seem that recent surveys have revealed the previously unthinkable idea that some of the "entrenched" countries in the EU, for example Italy, are looking to Britain's pioneering example and would also like to exit from the Union. It is another reason, of course, why the European Commission will do their damnedest to keep the United Kingdom in the fold, hoping to avoid a domino effect. One of either Tusk or Juncker have recently stated that a British exit from the EU will be "chaotic", meaning its effect upon the European Union.

I accept Rogeroc's contention that excessive Nationalism has the potential to be dangerous, although there is perhaps a fine line of distinction between patriotism and nationalism. In any event, Nationalism in itself is not dangerous; it is only when it is harnessed or hijacked for extreme purposes, in my view, that it becomes perilous.

I am thus of the opinion that "inclusiveness" is an artificial construct in the European Union. The possible dynamic is that wealthier countries want to get out and into something more like EFTA, with less political union, and the poorer countries want to join the Union to enjoy the perceived immediate financial and upliftment benefits. Not much inclusiveness here and working toward a common goal. It is more like every man for himself.

These tensions do not serve the EU well. The strains on the Euro may become intolerable, and, should the Euro unravel in the above scenario, so will the European Union.

[Thaiwine]

I do think the British are Nationalistic but not to a high degree, patriotic yes, but what is it to be British, it takes more than being born here, we have a character that is hard to explain, eccentric, sarcastic, quiet, tolerent, witty, humorous, taking the p out of ourselves and more, these are some of the things that make me proud to be British, apparently it’s in our Genes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

[chiang mai]

There are loads of us that don't trust British governments, present and past plus there's loads of us who crave the return of British sovereignty and a return to those standards we can more easily identify with and like. Those of us in our sixties were bought up in a post war era that was much calmer, more dignified and the war time spirit of bulldog Britain was still evident. Many of our parents will have fought at Dunkirk and on D Day we will all remember the stories we were told about those times, memories of the sacrifices and the struggle will stay with us forever - slightly odd I think that we are able to look back on those times with such fondness but I suppose we extract the good parts and cherish them whilst trying to forget the bad.

BUT, as much as we have those fond memories, that was then and this is now, times have changed and the UK we were born into bears very little resemblance to the one that exists today. And whilst it's great to have those memories, it's also appropriate to move on and regard the matters of today with today's thinking and not with the attitudes of seventy years ago. So if some of us seem unsympathetic to the Brexit cause it's probably because we're living in 2016 and not the 1950's/1960's and our thinking is adjusted accordingly, hard as that might be for some to swallow.

I very much enjoyed this post and think that some of it has merit. Personally, I can empathise with some of the romanticism which is contained therein,

although nostalgia is not what it used to be (joke).

I am, however, a little confused by your post's conclusion. Perhaps you would like to expound on what "today's thinking" means, as opposed to the

implied different "thinking" of a generation or two ago.

How has your (critical) thinking altered compared to your "thinking" back in the 50's and 60's (apart from the obvious advanced maturity which you now have).

How has it been impacted by being in 2016 as opposed to 1966 (50 years' ago) for example?

I had wanted to reply to this post before I left for the weekend but I didn't have enough time to do so, let me try to do so now because the issue is still very relevant.

Within the context of Brexit and nostalgia for expat retirees:

For most people growing up in the UK in the 1960's, "thinking" was a product of their education plus listening to the views of people around them and by today's standards could easily be regarded as insular - most UK citizens didn't travel very much plus there was no mature and complete form of mass communications such as the internet.

When I left the UK in 1969 to live in the US I discovered whole new ways of doing almost everything, new and most often better: I found that somebody had actually invented customer service; that by comparison, the NHS was a pretty creaky, painful and old fashioned way of delivering health care; that the class system existed mostly just in England, and so on.

From that point onwards I had a new set of tools with which to "think", new people with totally different perspectives on society and a different education in that I was learning new and often improved ways to do old things. Thirteen years later I took that knowledge and experience and applied it to Big Bang in the UK and realised that the UK had almost stood still during my absence. Later I would repeat that process but for shorter durations of two to four years in Europe, The Middle East, China and Asia.

So my critical thinking has evolved not just because of maturity but because of first hand experience of life in other countries and the comparisons that enables, that plus face to face discussion with others from many different countries and cultures.

The younger person today doesn't need to go to the same lengths as I did nor take as much time to reach a similar objective because of the wide availability of the internet, mass low cost international travel is also widely available hence the ability to "go and see for themselves" is quickly and easily achieved. Perhaps most importantly, the younger persons critical thinking is not tainted by nostalgia.

In light of the above, is it any surprise that today's younger generations are the ones who support Remain whilst the mostly insular and nostalgic retirees do not!

Today when I look at the UK and its population I usually just shake my head in amazement that the people got so much wrong. The cause has almost nothing to do with the EU but with the population as a whole, caught up in an expensive house price spiral and falling education standards, the desire to protect personal wealth is paramount and when symptoms of a broken society come to the surface, it's easier for at least 40% to blame the EU and immigrants than to think that perhaps they should have voted (fortunately that trend is now showing change of improvement, courtesy of younger voters). But I digress.

[Thaiwine]

Your post doesn't add up to me, so you went to America and found that their pay as you go health care was better than the NHS, then you went to Asia Middle east and China and found out life was better there, so this first hand experience tells you young people will vote out because we got it wrong, as in we worked hard to buy our houses to live in instead of renting, so we blame immigrants because the EU lied to us about we were joining a trading block. ok I'll re read when I'm sober.

[chiang mai]

Your post doesn't add up to me, so you went to America and found that their pay as you go health care was better than the NHS, then you went to Asia Middle east and China and found out life was better there, so this first hand experience tells you young people will vote out because we got it wrong, as in we worked hard to buy our houses to live in instead of renting, so we blame immigrants because the EU lied to us about we were joining a trading block. ok I'll re read when I'm sober.

My guess is that you probably wont get it, even if sober!

[cumgranosalum]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

I spend my time in both Thailand and the U.K.

Is it so strange that I do not want my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a country ruled by non elected officials?

for me personally, I can be nationalistic and still travel the world and stay where I want and when I want.

Also, the U.K. is where my money is, my house and many friends and family. That gives me good reason to want to be involved and be able to vote on the referendum.

"Is it so strange that I do not want my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a country ruled by non elected officials?" - except that is a myth - why don't you check it out rather than listen to people in the pub or the Daily Mail?

I want my grandchildren to grow up in a Land that stretches from the Artic Circle to Africa, Asia to the Atlantic and all the benefits and opportunities that brings....not a bunch of little Englanders who think anything bey Berwick or Bournemouth is foreign

[cumgranosalum]

I do think the British are Nationalistic but not to a high degree, patriotic yes, but what is it to be British, it takes more than being born here, we have a character that is hard to explain, eccentric, sarcastic, quiet, tolerent, witty, humorous, taking the p out of ourselves and more, these are some of the things that make me proud to be British, apparently it’s in our Genes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

"apparently it’s in our Genes" - which are predominantly German and French

Edited May 23, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[RickBradford]

Don't forget that it was only back in 2003 that all the same suspects, led by the banks and the industrialists, were howling with rage at the Government's final decision to stay out of the Eurozone.....

Look how that turned out.

People will always vote where their vested interests lie; Cameron has been told this, which is why he keeps hammering the money angle all the time. It's working, which is why you can get a solid 7/2 against Brexit at the bookies.

[chiang mai]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Edited May 23, 2016 by chiang mai

[nontabury]

Ok so if we leave the EU and Scotland leaves the UK to join the EU,

Will we have to rebuild Hadrians wall to keep the Europeans out ?

Then there may be tariffs on whisky, beef and ????

We may of course import all the whisky and beef we want far cheaper

But I hear them say Ha we have oil

Ermm I think you will find that it belongs to the people of Europe, like our fish used to.

Have a nice time funding the great EU.

Fantasy

People of Scotland are not that stupid

In 2014, 45% of those who voted.

[MartinL]

I do think the British are Nationalistic but not to a high degree, patriotic yes, but what is it to be British, it takes more than being born here, we have a character that is hard to explain, eccentric, sarcastic, quiet, tolerent, witty, humorous, taking the p out of ourselves and more, these are some of the things that make me proud to be British, apparently it’s in our Genes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

"apparently it’s in our Genes" - which are predominantly German and French

No, not 'French' & 'German' (among others) as they exist today but common with the ancestors of modern French & German folks, an entirely different concept. You could just as easily say that the French & Germans are of the same genetic stock as some Britons.

Maybe the forebears of many modern Britons were keen to get away from the coming EU even in those dim-and-distant days .

[nontabury]

Another part of the surprise on the 'British is best' views being expressed on this Brexit topic is that i have been reading the various topics on Thai Visa for over 6 months. However (with the exception of one prominent poster) i have never heard anybody say a good word about British women and they make up over half our population. So we love our country but not our women! I stand to be corrected but i think it has been British governments (not the EU) that has turned our country into a matriarchy.

Probably because the subject has been Thia women, and unfortunately a number of Farang men have let their guard down and have been taken advantage of. This only applies to some Thai women, most are as decent as the majority of women in the west, where again you can find bad ones if you are not carefull.

Agree British governments have not been very good,but how did they get to be the government. Well simple,The British people who have restricted choice voted them in. However At least they can be removed every 4/5 yrs.

As for the so called EU government, ruled by a set of none elected bureaucrats, they unbelievable have even shown themselves to be less qualified to govern. Be it the fiasco of the Euro to the open border policy that is now tearing Europe apart. And what does the future of the EU offer. That is the big concern that should be worrying all Europeans,in fact a growing No of Europeans are starting to ask questions and deciding that the EU no longer represents their aspirations.

[nontabury]

Another part of the surprise on the 'British is best' views being expressed on this Brexit topic is that i have been reading the various topics on Thai Visa for over 6 months. However (with the exception of one prominent poster) i have never heard anybody say a good word about British women and they make up over half our population. So we love our country but not our women! I stand to be corrected but i think it has been British governments (not the EU) that has turned our country into a matriarchy.

Probably because the subject has been Thia women, and unfortunately a number of Farang men have let their guard down and have been taken advantage of. This only applies to some Thai women, most are as decent as the majority of women in the west, where again you can find bad ones if you are not carefull.

Agree British governments have not been very good,but how did they get to be the government. Well simple,The British people who have restricted choice voted them in. However At least they can be removed every 4/5 yrs.

As for the so called EU government, ruled by a set of none elected bureaucrats, they unbelievable have even shown themselves to be less qualified to govern. Be it the fiasco of the Euro to the open border policy that is now tearing Europe apart. And what does the future of the EU offer. That is the big concern that should be worrying all Europeans,in fact a growing No of Europeans are starting to ask questions and deciding that the EU no longer represents their aspirations.

[sandyf]

"The former mayor of London, a key figure in the Vote Leave campaign, wrote in his Daily Telegraph column in October 2014 that TTIP – a deal being negotiated by the EU commission with Washington – was a “great project”. He said: “It is Churchillian in that it builds transatlantic links, it is all about free trade, and it brings Britain and Europe closer to America. The idea is to create a gigantic free-trade zone between the EU and the US … There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP. "

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/boris-johnson-accused-of-dishonest-gymnastics-over-ttip-u-turn

[sandyf]

I saw this on TV, first time I have seen David Cameron really lose his cool. She backed off and admitted she could have put it differently. For the leave campaign it would appear that everything hinges on migrants.

"David Cameron has said claims the UK would not be able to block Turkey joining the EU are "very misleading", insisting the UK retains a veto.

Earlier defence minister Penny Mordaunt said the migrant crisis would hasten talks over Turkey's EU bid and the UK was powerless to stop it.

The EU referendum was the "only chance" for the UK to have its say, she said.

But the prime minister said this was "absolutely wrong" and raised questions about the Leave campaign's judgement."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353013

[Caps]

Turkey shouldn't even be entertained to join the EU, about 90% of it is in Asia. Even more reason to leave, 75 millions turks eligible to move and live where they want....outstanding!

[nontabury]

"The former mayor of London, a key figure in the Vote Leave campaign, wrote in his Daily Telegraph column in October 2014 that TTIP – a deal being negotiated by the EU commission with Washington – was a “great project”. He said: “It is Churchillian in that it builds transatlantic links, it is all about free trade, and it brings Britain and Europe closer to America. The idea is to create a gigantic free-trade zone between the EU and the US … There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP. "

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/boris-johnson-accused-of-dishonest-gymnastics-over-ttip-u-turn

Never been convinced by B.J. At that time everything was conducted very secretly in regards TTIP, all information coming from leaked documents and freedom of information requests,so just maybe even he was unaware of the full implications of TTIP.

So let's look at a few things that come with TTIP.

One of the aims of TTIP is to open up European public health,education and water servises to giant US corporations. This will lead to the demise of the NHS.

Food and environmental safety, the idea is to bring EU regulations in line with those in the U.S. Unfortunately U.S. Regulations are far less strict, for instance they allow far more pesticides to be sprayed on their farms, they allow their cattle to be injected with harmful hormones that are not allow in the EU.

Banking regulations will be relaxed by TTIP thus giving back more controls that came into force after 2008,back to the banks.

TTIP would also curtail some basic personnel privacy.where Internet providers would Have to monitors people's online activities.

Make it harder for public access to pharmaceutical companies clinical trials.

The EU has already admitted that this agreement Would lead to higher unemployment ( check out current EU countries unemployment rates),as jobs switch to the US where Labour standard and Unions rights are much lower.

It will allow giant US companies to take European governments to court,if they feel that government policies are hurting their profits,even when those government policies might be in place to protect their people. In other words these unelected transnational companies can and will dictate the policies of democratically elected governments.

Can you vote against TTIP ? Unfortunately not,as I have already said it is in the hands of the unelected commissioners in Brussels. Who will benifit? Big business and financial institutions.

[Scott]

Several posts that have been removed. One violates Fair Use and others are messing up the formatting of the forum.

[nontabury]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

[dick dasterdly]

The Brexit movie is thin watery gruel indeed

It genuinely depresses me that so many of you fall for such cheap propaganda

Answer me this: why is it that nobody of stature has stood up and supported Brexit? Not one.

Exactly, quite well made piece of propaganda.

Jeremy Paxman did something similar a couple of nights ago but he included people from both sides. He talked to Jonathan Hill, selected by the UK government to represent the UK in the EU commission. He also talked to several MEPs, which have been elected by the UK public, a few from each side of the fence. Each had fairly plausible reasons for their point of view.

Do you have a link to the Paxman debate/interview? I'd be interested to see it.

[dick dasterdly]

I have argued all along that David Cameron underplayed his hand during his recent negotiations with the EU

members. Perhaps he was not taken seriously. Perhaps he did not seriously convey the depth of (negative)

feeling about the EU which much of the British populace harbours. And perhaps he did not attempt to convince

the other parties that a withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union would have very serious

consequences for the Union, in multi-faceted ways. Indeed, it begs the question as to whether DC's efforts

were merely platitudes to the Euro-skeptics in the Tory party, and an attempt to not only placate this wing of

the party but also to thwart the political machinations of Nigel Farage and UKIP. Carrying out a charade whilst

killing two birds with one stone. Of course, it may come back to bite his ass!

As I have also argued in previous posts, lengthy Brexit negotiations with the EU will simply play into Britain's

hands. Because exit is a "process", and not an "event", whilst negotiating withdrawal the United Kingdom will

be simultaneously putting in place the various trade and other commercial structures and relationships necessary

to maintain economic and social equilibrium, and growth.

It is unlikely, given this scenario, that another referendum will ever be necessary, much less in 3 or 4 years'

time as Sandy suggests. If we have ever championed the indefatigable and indomitable spirit of the British people,

that time may well be after June 23rd.

I agree with everything other than the last para. - as I hope that Brexit would force the EU into considering its likely demise if it loses such a large contributor, and hope this would force budgetary reform (and a final end to the 'gravy train').

If this happened, I'd be happy to consider voting to join again. Unfortunately, it is likely to be too late - as if the UK leaves, other countries are likely to follow.

[dick dasterdly]

I spend my time in both Thailand and the U.K.

Is it so strange that I do not want my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a country ruled by non elected officials?

for me personally, I can be nationalistic and still travel the world and stay where I want and when I want.

Also, the U.K. is where my money is, my house and many friends and family. That gives me good reason to want to be involved and be able to vote on the referendum.

Yes i know what you mean but i still think you overlooked my point a little. For me one of the reasons i do not want to live in the UK is that i am not 'proud' to be British. Probably one reason i am pro European as well, i think many Europeans offer qualities not always apparent in the British.

I respect your viewpoint, because I, myself, am no longer "proud" to be British, and find it difficult to identify with most of the

British inhabitants of Britain, in that, these days, they are such a motley and disparate group of people. However, that said,

how does one identify with a "European" (meaning Continental Europe as opposed to the United Kingdom)? There is no

"profile" to identify with, no "typical European", in my view. The Dutch are as different to the Italians, as the Poles are to the

Romanians.

And therein lies the rub. It will take many generations, if ever, for this artificial grouping of peoples and countries to ever feel

truly "united". It is the utmost experiment in social engineering imaginable, and I cannot foresee a time when Europe,

in its guise as the EU, will every be coherent.

As an adult, I've never been nationalistic and find patriotism laughable. Houses flying English flags in support of the English football team - really??!! On holiday in Southern Ireland it was even worse (going back a few decades ). We were in a pub and a news item came on the TV about Bobby Sands (?). We instantly stopped talking .

Why on earth would an intelligent adult take others' achievements as proof of their own nations' brilliance??

I can 'sort of' understand patriotism - but still find it cringe-worthy and embarrassing.

[dick dasterdly]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

Snow

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Snow is pretty rare nowadays in the UK, which is why I still love snow - for short periods . Its the never ending grey, rainy days that grind you down - and the incessant need to spend money to enjoy life (holidays/making a perfect home/having to work to support that 'lifestyle') etc. that leads to depression...

[dick dasterdly]

I do think the British are Nationalistic but not to a high degree, patriotic yes, but what is it to be British, it takes more than being born here, we have a character that is hard to explain, eccentric, sarcastic, quiet, tolerent, witty, humorous, taking the p out of ourselves and more, these are some of the things that make me proud to be British, apparently it’s in our Genes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

I'd love to agree with your post (and do, to a certain extent), but have had too many conversations (ended abruptly by me) with horribly racist people .

[Mosha]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

Snow

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Snow is pretty rare nowadays in the UK, which is why I still love snow - for short periods . Its the never ending grey, rainy days that grind you down - and the incessant need to spend money to enjoy life (holidays/making a perfect home/having to work to support that 'lifestyle') etc. that leads to depression...

4hrs to do a drive home that in dry weather took 20 mins. After a 12 hr shift.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[dick dasterdly]

There are loads of us that don't trust British governments, present and past plus there's loads of us who crave the return of British sovereignty and a return to those standards we can more easily identify with and like. Those of us in our sixties were bought up in a post war era that was much calmer, more dignified and the war time spirit of bulldog Britain was still evident. Many of our parents will have fought at Dunkirk and on D Day we will all remember the stories we were told about those times, memories of the sacrifices and the struggle will stay with us forever - slightly odd I think that we are able to look back on those times with such fondness but I suppose we extract the good parts and cherish them whilst trying to forget the bad.

BUT, as much as we have those fond memories, that was then and this is now, times have changed and the UK we were born into bears very little resemblance to the one that exists today. And whilst it's great to have those memories, it's also appropriate to move on and regard the matters of today with today's thinking and not with the attitudes of seventy years ago. So if some of us seem unsympathetic to the Brexit cause it's probably because we're living in 2016 and not the 1950's/1960's and our thinking is adjusted accordingly, hard as that might be for some to swallow.

I very much enjoyed this post and think that some of it has merit. Personally, I can empathise with some of the romanticism which is contained therein,

although nostalgia is not what it used to be (joke).

I am, however, a little confused by your post's conclusion. Perhaps you would like to expound on what "today's thinking" means, as opposed to the

implied different "thinking" of a generation or two ago.

How has your (critical) thinking altered compared to your "thinking" back in the 50's and 60's (apart from the obvious advanced maturity which you now have).

How has it been impacted by being in 2016 as opposed to 1966 (50 years' ago) for example?

I had wanted to reply to this post before I left for the weekend but I didn't have enough time to do so, let me try to do so now because the issue is still very relevant.

Within the context of Brexit and nostalgia for expat retirees:

For most people growing up in the UK in the 1960's, "thinking" was a product of their education plus listening to the views of people around them and by today's standards could easily be regarded as insular - most UK citizens didn't travel very much plus there was no mature and complete form of mass communications such as the internet.

When I left the UK in 1969 to live in the US I discovered whole new ways of doing almost everything, new and most often better: I found that somebody had actually invented customer service; that by comparison, the NHS was a pretty creaky, painful and old fashioned way of delivering health care; that the class system existed mostly just in England, and so on.

From that point onwards I had a new set of tools with which to "think", new people with totally different perspectives on society and a different education in that I was learning new and often improved ways to do old things. Thirteen years later I took that knowledge and experience and applied it to Big Bang in the UK and realised that the UK had almost stood still during my absence. Later I would repeat that process but for shorter durations of two to four years in Europe, The Middle East, China and Asia.

So my critical thinking has evolved not just because of maturity but because of first hand experience of life in other countries and the comparisons that enables, that plus face to face discussion with others from many different countries and cultures.

The younger person today doesn't need to go to the same lengths as I did nor take as much time to reach a similar objective because of the wide availability of the internet, mass low cost international travel is also widely available hence the ability to "go and see for themselves" is quickly and easily achieved. Perhaps most importantly, the younger persons critical thinking is not tainted by nostalgia.

In light of the above, is it any surprise that today's younger generations are the ones who support Remain whilst the mostly insular and nostalgic retirees do not!

Today when I look at the UK and its population I usually just shake my head in amazement that the people got so much wrong. The cause has almost nothing to do with the EU but with the population as a whole, caught up in an expensive house price spiral and falling education standards, the desire to protect personal wealth is paramount and when symptoms of a broken society come to the surface, it's easier for at least 40% to blame the EU and immigrants than to think that perhaps they should have voted (fortunately that trend is now showing change of improvement, courtesy of younger voters). But I digress.

I agree with much of this, but have to point out that although the NHS is undoubtedly "creaky" its also free and pretty good for those that can't afford private health care - far more so than for poor people in the US who cannot afford insurance.

Additionally, perhaps older people can remember the lies told when we joined the EC and have also seen the way salaries/wages have gone down over the last 3 decades? etc. etc. But the latter is as much the result of Brit policies as EU policies.

[dick dasterdly]

"The former mayor of London, a key figure in the Vote Leave campaign, wrote in his Daily Telegraph column in October 2014 that TTIP – a deal being negotiated by the EU commission with Washington – was a “great project”. He said: “It is Churchillian in that it builds transatlantic links, it is all about free trade, and it brings Britain and Europe closer to America. The idea is to create a gigantic free-trade zone between the EU and the US … There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP. "

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/boris-johnson-accused-of-dishonest-gymnastics-over-ttip-u-turn

Oh come on, that was back in '14, and I'm sure a lot more details have been finalised since then!

Not that I have any time for Boris Johnson - a wily character who has found it wise to pretend to be a bit of a buffoon. It says a lot when the electorate prefer this over the weasel like propensities generally shown by politicians.

[dick dasterdly]

"The former mayor of London, a key figure in the Vote Leave campaign, wrote in his Daily Telegraph column in October 2014 that TTIP – a deal being negotiated by the EU commission with Washington – was a “great project”. He said: “It is Churchillian in that it builds transatlantic links, it is all about free trade, and it brings Britain and Europe closer to America. The idea is to create a gigantic free-trade zone between the EU and the US … There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP. "

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/boris-johnson-accused-of-dishonest-gymnastics-over-ttip-u-turn

Never been convinced by B.J. At that time everything was conducted very secretly in regards TTIP, all information coming from leaked documents and freedom of information requests,so just maybe even he was unaware of the full implications of TTIP.

So let's look at a few things that come with TTIP.

One of the aims of TTIP is to open up European public health,education and water servises to giant US corporations. This will lead to the demise of the NHS.

Food and environmental safety, the idea is to bring EU regulations in line with those in the U.S. Unfortunately U.S. Regulations are far less strict, for instance they allow far more pesticides to be sprayed on their farms, they allow their cattle to be injected with harmful hormones that are not allow in the EU.

Banking regulations will be relaxed by TTIP thus giving back more controls that came into force after 2008,back to the banks.

TTIP would also curtail some basic personnel privacy.where Internet providers would Have to monitors people's online activities.

Make it harder for public access to pharmaceutical companies clinical trials.

The EU has already admitted that this agreement Would lead to higher unemployment ( check out current EU countries unemployment rates),as jobs switch to the US where Labour standard and Unions rights are much lower.

It will allow giant US companies to take European governments to court,if they feel that government policies are hurting their profits,even when those government policies might be in place to protect their people. In other words these unelected transnational companies can and will dictate the policies of democratically elected governments.

Can you vote against TTIP ? Unfortunately not,as I have already said it is in the hands of the unelected commissioners in Brussels. Who will benifit? Big business and financial institutions.

Exactly - which is why I see the EU as an incredibly expensive (wasteful) protector against the worst excesses of the Brit. govt. and the US!

But the EU needs to reform, and I can't see this happening unless its threatened with extinction ala Brexit.