With New Regulations, Is Work Permit Needed For Telecommuting Work?

[Gumballl]

I have the possibility of obtaining work that I can do from home, as long as I have internet access. Thus the work can be performed anywhere. Since I am married to a Thai national, I thought for now the best place to live (until my wife gets her visa) would be in Thailand.

Are there any visa restrictions or a need for a work permit to perform this type of work? I have read in another TV post (from 2004) that a work permit is not required, but with the new 01-Oct-06 regulations, I am wondering if anything has changed with respect to that.

The company I would be working for is US-based, and I would be paid in US dollars in the US. Thus Uncle Sam will get its (un)fair share of it in the form of income tax, thus alleviating the need to worry about being taxed in Thailand.

The company will also require me to visit their corporate office (in the US) on a monthly basis. Would I require a visa each time I enter Thailand, or will the 30-day-on-arrival stamps meet my needs? I do not want to be affected by the "90-days IN and 90-days OUT" rule.

Thank you in advance for your comments.

(Btw, I am a US citizen.)

[BKK90210]

My situation is very similar to yours, I contacted Sunbelt and they did make a quick call to the labor dept ….the response’s “I don’t need a work permit in my case” and the thai labor dept is issuing me a clearance letter for this.

Here is my situation......

-Married to a thai national for 20 yrs, I’m under 50

-fully a licensed professional engineer with the authorized engineering stamp issued by the state

- owned my own structural engineering firm in the US for about 10 yrs already

- will continue to have my company open in the USA and will need to contact these clients in the USA via internet to continue to do projects and work for them. I however will be in Thailand while working on these projects for my clients in the USA

-The thai structural engineers absolutely can not do my line of work for the clients in the US because all structural drawings hard copies/print outs must have a wet-stamp w/dated & signature of a professional US-licensed engineer before going through the building permitting process in the US.

-All the project locations will only be in the US.

-All my clients are US base only

- All income will be deposit into US bank only

Note: I will not be taking a job away from the thais, because they can not do my line of works for my clients in the US, and all my clients are US based. I think these might be the main reasons why the labor dept is issuing "the work permit clearance letter" to me.

Below is the response letter from the thai labor dept and what I have to provide....

“From The Thai Labor dept To Sunbelt"

Please provide us as the letter states: Each doc has to be notarized by the state and then the Thai Embassy in the US.

1. A copy of his original passport

2. Evidences of business operation or establishment, any certificate issued by any authorized government sector to affirm or certify that he has actually own and operating his Company in USA.

3. Affirmation made by him warrants and affirms that his income or benefit is not gained in Thailand, and his customers or the businesses of his company are not in Thailand.

4. A marriage certificate between him and his Thai wife

5. Current and present address of him & Thai wife

6. Certificates of company registration of the questioner

I'm going to bed now - it's 2:30 am here in the US, I'm working late tonight

Good luck in your case

[ovenman]

My situation is very similar to yours, I contacted Sunbelt and they did make a quick call to the labor dept ….the response’s “I don’t need a work permit in my case” and the thai labor dept is issuing me a clearance letter for this.

If you can actually get somebody official to issue such a work permit clearance letter, this would be big news for the telecommuters residing in Thailand. Please keep us posted one way or the other...

[Maestro]

Since I am married to a Thai national, I thought for now the best place to live (until my wife gets her visa) would be in Thailand.

Gumball, in my opinion, the ideal visa for you is a multiple-entry non-immigrant visa, category O. This will let you enter Thailand for an unlimited number of times during one year from the issue date of the visa.

---------------

Maestro

[Gumballl]

Since I am married to a Thai national, I thought for now the best place to live (until my wife gets her visa) would be in Thailand.

Gumball, in my opinion, the ideal visa for you is a multiple-entry non-immigrant visa, category O. This will let you enter Thailand for an unlimited number of times during one year from the issue date of the visa.

---------------

Maestro

Maestro, is this type of visa something I need to obtain while I am presently in the US, or can I obtain it within Thailand itself (in other words, convert a Tourist Visa to the Non-Imm-O Visa by going to immigration)?

[Maestro]

is this type of visa something I need to obtain while I am presently in the US, or can I obtain it within Thailand itself (in other words, convert a Tourist Visa to the Non-Imm-O Visa by going to immigration)?

You must get it from a Thai consulate in the USA. The consulates in Houston and Denver have been mentioned favourably in this forum for their good service.

---------------

Maestro

[BKK90210]

My situation is very similar to yours, I contacted Sunbelt and they did make a quick call to the labor dept ….the response’s “I don’t need a work permit in my case” and the thai labor dept is issuing me a clearance letter for this.

If you can actually get somebody official to issue such a work permit clearance letter, this would be big news for the telecommuters residing in Thailand. Please keep us posted one way or the other...

I will keep you posted. They had all my paperworks (1" thick) since last week, so it should be any day now.

[ovenman]

I will keep you posted. They had all my paperworks (1" thick) since last week, so it should be any day now.

Any luck obtaining that Ministry of Labour letter absolving you of the work permit requirement?

[BKK90210]

I’m still in the US and processing these docs thru Sunbelt. According to Sunbelt, once they have filed these it will take about 1 - 2 weeks for the labor department to process. I will inform you as soon as I have any news from Sunbelt. It could be by the end of this week or next week hopefully.

[kudroz]

2. Evidences of business operation or establishment, any certificate issued by any authorized government sector to affirm or certify that he has actually own and operating his Company in USA.

Wouldn't this be a problem since you are operating your business from Thailand?

The word "Establishment" caught my attention because in the Double Tax Agreement - there is this principle of PE ("Permanent Establishment") which is the determining factor on where the company is resident for tax purposes.

If your US company have a PE in Thailand it would mean that you'd be liable to pay taxes in Thailand on the portion of income that is associated with the PE in Thailand. It seems to me that they want to see proof that the company's PE is in the US.

What "evidences of business operation or establishment" were you planning on providing? Anyhow, please keep us informed on the devlopment - it is a very interesting topic for many I'm sure.

Edited November 12, 2006 by kudroz

[tutsiwarrior]

From this discussion it appears that if a falang is doing work on the internet in Thailand for an organisation say, in the UK and is paid into a UK bank account the falang would need a work permit.

Is this correct? If so...how would this affect people in Thailand as tourists that send and receive work related email to keep current with things at the office while on holiday?

Edited November 12, 2006 by tutsiwarrior

[sriracha john]

I’m still in the US and processing these docs thru Sunbelt. According to Sunbelt, once they have filed these it will take about 1 - 2 weeks for the labor department to process. I will inform you as soon as I have any news from Sunbelt. It could be by the end of this week or next week hopefully.

BUMP...

Any word on this, BKK90210 or Sunbelt, after 5 weeks?

It sounds like something I might be interested in pursuing, that is... if it works.

[BKK90210]

John

Just got email from Sunbelt,

They have checked with the labor department again yesterday, and got the response back that the labor dept have not processed my case yet,….guess mine is not the urgent case.

That’s ok I’m not in a rush or anything and still have plenty of works to finish off here.

Will keep everyone posted of the outcome

[sriracha john]

John

Just got email from Sunbelt,

They have checked with the labor department again yesterday, and got the response back that the labor dept have not processed my case yet,….guess mine is not the urgent case.

That’s ok I’m not in a rush or anything and still have plenty of works to finish off here.

Will keep everyone posted of the outcome

Thank you for the response, BKK, and I look forward to any updates.

I'm not so sure that in my situation I want to wait several months for a decision to be made, but I'm very interested to see if this all works out and if so, what the total time for processing turns out to be.

Thank you again.

Edited December 14, 2006 by sriracha john

[retiree]

It would be great to see a genuine interpretation of the Alien Employment Act (B.E. 2521), which is generally translated as prohibiting:

"working by exerting one's physical energy or employing one's knowledge, whether or not for wages or other benefits"

If taken literally, this would seem to criminalize any activity without a work permit whatsoever (except, perhaps, sleeping).

In the US, such a law could be readily challenged as unconstitutionally vague: it does not give a "person of ordinary intelligence a reasonable opportunity to know what is prohibited, so that he may act accordingly," and/or places a "power of arbitrary or discriminatory enforcement in the hands of police, prosecutors, and ultimately judges." I've always been curious what light actual Thai case law, or written administrative interpretation, might shed.

Retiree

[wpcoe]

If taken literally, this would seem to criminalize any activity without a work permit whatsoever (except, perhaps, sleeping).

Dunno. Have you ever notice the sleeping shop clerks at the display cases or cash register? Aren't they getting paid to sleep? And, farang, be careful about standing around in small groups "shooting the breeze" with buddies. Isn't what they pay the folks on the sales floor at Home Pro to do?

Seriously, though, the vagueness certainly is a problem. As mentioned in another thread: a homeowner threatened to be turned in to Immigrations for painting his own home?

And, certainly all the more ironic with the news articles proclaiming this last week that Thailand has the lowest unemployment rate in the world.

[sriracha john]

BUMP...

Just wondering after 8 weeks... if there's any word from the Labour Ministry regarding a clearance letter?

As this thread is being referenced in another thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1051744

it might be good to get the real answer rather than the supposed or expected answer and that of course would be the actual exemption letter itself.

Thanks to OP or Sunbelt for a response.

[LivinLOS]

The ability to get not only a visa, and a WP, and an exemption from paying income tax in Thailand for that work.. just strikes me as incredible..

Waiting with baited breath, but not holding it.

[girlx]

the point is they are saying we don't need a work permit, that is what the exemption letter is for. if we stay long term of course it is beter to get an non-immigrant visa. we don't need to pay taxes in thailand because our income is not made in thailand, we pay taxes to our own country. most lower income thais i know don't pay taxes either. why do you have such a problem with this?

[LivinLOS]

OK so who EVER in the entire history of the ThaiVisa knowledge base has ever gained one of those letters for telecommuting / website work ??

I dont have a problem with you breaking the law.. People do it all the time.. I dont always wear my helmet... But its silly to pretend its legal and post on a visa forum that its a legit way.. If you say its OK people can usually escape problems as they cant catch you, thats one thing, but calling it a grey area or a legal avenue is not.

Also if here an aggregate of 183 days in a year you owe Thai taxes on your earnings.. Ask the tax office. Again just because they can control or monitor that fact does not make it any less true.

[kudroz]

If the location of the activity for which the income is connected to is in Thailand - it is belived to be "Thai Source Income". Thai Source Income is taxable in Thailand.

I.E. Say you're working on your blog from Thailand and you earn money from Google Adwords; your income is connected to your activities (working on the blog) while you are located in Thailand. You are subject to Thai Taxation on this income.

But it seems the Thai tax system accounts only a foreigner's income from either their Thai salary and/or business income from a Thai registered entity (partnership or company). It leaves someone in this situation in a "grey area".

[kudroz]

OK so who EVER in the entire history of the ThaiVisa knowledge base has ever gained one of those letters for telecommuting / website work ??

I dont have a problem with you breaking the law.. People do it all the time.. I dont always wear my helmet... But its silly to pretend its legal and post on a visa forum that its a legit way.. If you say its OK people can usually escape problems as they cant catch you, thats one thing, but calling it a grey area or a legal avenue is not.

Also if here an aggregate of 183 days in a year you owe Thai taxes on your earnings.. Ask the tax office. Again just because they can control or monitor that fact does not make it any less true.

The 183 days is only for "Worldwide Source Income". Telecommuting as described in this thread implies that the revenue generating activities would be in Thailand, therefore it would be "Thai Source Income" and subject to Taxation in Thailand regardless of how many days this person aggregated in Thailand for a given year.

But lile I said in my post above, this is a grey area because there are no knowed ways, afaik, to declare this self-employment income without a Work Permit. And there is no way to obtain a Work Permit unless you register a Thai entity (company or partnership).

So for the telecommuting person, there are 3 approach that I can think of.

1) The company for which the telecommuter is working needs to register a Branch/Representative Office in Thailand and may be subject to taxation on the profits associated with your work in Thailand.

2) Have the telecommuter to register a business in Thailand and invoice the foreign company.

3) Stay in the grey area

[LivinLOS]

But it seems the Thai tax system accounts only a foreigner's income from either their Thai salary and/or business income from a Thai registered entity (partnership or company). It leaves someone in this situation in a "grey area".

First I 100% agree with your assessments so far.. they fit exactly how I would logically interpret the rules.

The grey area you state though is basically that the foreigner is here in Thailand but working illegally.. so its pretty tough to declare income and therefore declare taxes due without falling foul of the fact they are not legally working. While I agree its a catch 22 I see that as hinging on the fact that they have not created a legal framework to work or employ themselves and get a WP.

I also totally agree with you above 3 solutions to the problem but number 3 would read 'keep working illegally and hope no one busts you'..

You could also add a 4th as yet unproven solution which would be to try and obtain a WP exemption. Wonder what fees it would take Sunbelt to try it and see ??

[BKK90210]

You could also add a 4th as yet unproven solution which would be to try and obtain a WP exemption. Wonder what fees it would take Sunbelt to try it and see ??

In my case:

A very small fee for me since I (via Sunbelt) already had the verbal approval via phone call a day earlier from the labor dept, but still have yet to see the actual exemption letter myself. So far Sunbelt has been calling them periodically for the letter. May be they don’t like writing that much.

[sriracha john]

Unfortunately, until they do provide written documentation, there's not much value or worth to any verbal assurances.

I was hoping actually that something positive would occur from all of this as its never occured previously as far as I know, but, regretfully, after 8 weeks of waiting... the hope is vanishing.

[mouse]

I for one do not envision a person within such a grey area being granted an exemption. All the recent changes have been implemented to create tax revenues and remove those that try to avoid becoming legal, whether through lack of a proper Visa or Work permit. By issuing such exemptions they eliminate about 50% of the farang here. Not likely. I fear that this will become a non enforced area only used against a violator in exchange for tea money or to get rid of him or her when they can find no other way to rid themselves of a non desirable.

What irks me is that a few of the the same people (ref another thread) that want to avoid paying taxes here, saying that they are citizens of another nation and their work and income is derived from that other nation through the web. Yet when you talk to them in depth, you will find that they are also avoiding taxes in their home nation by stating that they work abroad. For this reason, I think the U.S. gives a limited exemption ($84,000 per year) if you live abroad, after which you have to start paying taxes.

I for one have followed all visa rules, work permit rules and now own a Amity company and am irked by those that think are better than the majority of us and do not need a valid visa, work permit, do their 90 reporting or to pay any taxes anywhere. I know of many that have varied levels of businesses running in LOS, all illegal.

Thailand will wake up some day and either fine and tax the heck out of those I mention or get rid of them as the are the ones that take no matter where they are and contribute nothing in return.

OK now flame me, if you wish, but, I feel better having finally said it.

[kudroz]

What irks me is that a few of the the same people (ref another thread) that want to avoid paying taxes here, saying that they are citizens of another nation and their work and income is derived from that other nation through the web. Yet when you talk to them in depth, you will find that they are also avoiding taxes in their home nation by stating that they work abroad. For this reason, I think the U.S. gives a limited exemption ($84,000 per year) if you live abroad, after which you have to start paying taxes.

I for one have followed all visa rules, work permit rules and now own a Amity company and am irked by those that think are better than the majority of us and do not need a valid visa, work permit, do their 90 reporting or to pay any taxes anywhere. I know of many that have varied levels of businesses running in LOS, all illegal.

Thailand will wake up some day and either fine and tax the heck out of those I mention or get rid of them as the are the ones that take no matter where they are and contribute nothing in return.

OK now flame me, if you wish, but, I feel better having finally said it.

Well said

[LivinLOS]

You could also add a 4th as yet unproven solution which would be to try and obtain a WP exemption. Wonder what fees it would take Sunbelt to try it and see ??

In my case:

A very small fee for me since I (via Sunbelt) already had the verbal approval via phone call a day earlier from the labor dept, but still have yet to see the actual exemption letter myself. So far Sunbelt has been calling them periodically for the letter. May be they don’t like writing that much.

Without wanting to pry.. What is your work / country setup ??

Your in Thailand..

Working online for non Thai Co as an employee ?? Contractor with home country Co ?? Self employed (no company) ??

Is your work very specialized or more generic (could your company find a replacement) ??

Are there any home country specific certifications that make your job inelligable for a Thai ??

Of course if any of that is personal or too private simply say so.. Just trying to see what kind of applications are acceptable.

I mean looking at this from one angle, I have accounts with brokers and investments, I manage those investments (rarely) online.. Does this make me a stock trader ?? Can that work then be WP exempt and yet get me a B visa and no taxes due in Thailand ?? To me that seems ridiculous but if a WP exemption is granted then for one persons online work then why not ?? Its how I support my lifestyle which is what most people class as their 'work'.

[girlx]

mouse if you are referring to me then i don't know if i am exempt from paying taxes in the US, i am trying to find out what my situation is all around. hence all my posts on the subject. as of now, i pay taxes on my income in the US. in Thailand, an amity company makes no sense for me as all my contracts are US-based and I am paid in US $. nothing crosses over US borders. for all intents and purposes I AM a tourist in Thailand. and I will not live here permanently, build a house, and have a family like you have.

I for one have followed all visa rules, work permit rules and now own a Amity company and am irked by those that think are better than the majority of us and do not need a valid visa, work permit, do their 90 reporting or to pay any taxes anywhere. Thailand will wake up some day and either fine and tax the heck out of those I mention or get rid of them as the are the ones that take no matter where they are and contribute nothing in return.

You might be on the appropriate path for your situation, it doesn't mean it is for everyone. I do not think I am better than you, and I am trying to solidify the legality of what I am doing here, but several of you can't seem to accept that Thailand does not require someone in my situation to have a work permit or non-imm visa because we are ONLY bringing money into the country, just as tourists do. you sound petty and jealous.

Edited January 5, 2007 by girlx

[LivinLOS]

Just because you dont want to pay taxes here.. Or even because the US taxes you there, doesnt mean your not due to pay income taxes in the country you are in while your working..

Just being American does not mean you dont pay other places.. I have lived and worked all over the world and had to pay taxes to loads of different governments to be and work there..

And while you may think he sounds petty and jealous he is actually spending the money to make himself legal, he then contributes taxes to the country he is in, he fullfills the laws of the land. While you avoid your tax obligations, dont make a legal company, dont bear those costs and burdens and then undercut people who do stick to the rules.. Petty ?? Jealous ??

Its not even like forming and running an Amity company is prohibitively expensive.. Certainly less so that forming and accounting for companies back in the west. You keep saying that you dont need to have a WP or even a visa.. Why ?? Show us the rules that say you can work here without a WP. Just because you want it to be true doesnt make it so.