With New Regulations, Is Work Permit Needed For Telecommuting Work?

[mouse]

I don't agree with your view that any company way will provide full legality. I am not fully aware of the regulations for Amity Companies, but I seem to remember that Sole Propriorship is not possible. You might need to find US proxies. The work we describe here is a single person's freelance entrepeneur work, which is nowhere covered legally in Thailand for a foreigner. &

If the Thai authorities want us foreigners to follow their law in all detail, it is their right, no doubt, but at least they are then required to formulate the law in such a way that it is manageable UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.

This was my point as well. There is nothing to say that my specific situation is legal or illegal. It is a gray area. Though you will shoot back at me and say "it's illegal!", my interpretation of the law defining work in Thailand is just as valid as your interpretation. What matters is the Labor Department's interpretation, and thus far they don't seem to feel I am working illegally.

She is I imagine quite happy to find out she gets an 82k USD tax free allowance..

I am not sure I do, in my situation, which is why I am posting questions about it. I have been paying US taxes all along. If I am not required to do that and am required to pay them here instead, I will do that... at this point I am trying to get more info. As you will notice in the other post referenced up there, I did ask for recommendations of tax professionals in LOS.

Sole Propriership is not a problem with an Amity company and is one of the largest benefits other than meeting the test to be eligible for the $84,000 Tax exclusion rule. Any income above that $84,000 is now taxes at the bracket it would have been in if you did not have the exclusion to begin with. In other words you would go straight to 38+% tax bracked for any income over that $84,000.

These tax agreements between nations work hand in hand to stop people from avoiding taxes all together.

But mind you somewhere down the line the IRS, under their Tax Treaty with Thailand may inform them of your income in their territory. Trust me they work together. It will be a matter of time.

Again good luck to all that think the can beat city hall.

[girlx]

The law is clear, your working, you need either a WP or a WP exemption, you need to pay Thai taxes, you have avenues available to you to get a WP.. You simply don't want to face the costs of legalizing yourself and your visa status.

i have never said i don't want to face the costs of legalizing myself, that was another poster going on about that. if the labor department comes back again and says no we changed our mind, you aren't legal, do this and this, i will. my point is, i don't believe it is necessary to form my own amity company and get a thai work permit as the company i am working for is in the US.

I believe where your income is derived is neither here nor there..

you believe.... my response from the law firm who is talking to the labor department is that they did not deem it necessary that i have a work permit.

If you were sat in an office in Bangkok working for a multinational doing exactly the same you'd expect to pay tax, have a WP wouldn't you???

The "online world" is no different from the "real world"

the difference is that multinational company would have a presence within thailand and thus competitors for the job would be thai.

Edited January 5, 2007 by girlx

[mouse]

My situation is very similar to yours, I contacted Sunbelt and they did make a quick call to the labor dept ….the response’s “I don’t need a work permit in my case” and the thai labor dept is issuing me a clearance letter for this.

Here is my situation......

-Married to a thai national for 20 yrs, I’m under 50

-fully a licensed professional engineer with the authorized engineering stamp issued by the state

- owned my own structural engineering firm in the US for about 10 yrs already

- will continue to have my company open in the USA and will need to contact these clients in the USA via internet to continue to do projects and work for them. I however will be in Thailand while working on these projects for my clients in the USA

-The thai structural engineers absolutely can not do my line of work for the clients in the US because all structural drawings hard copies/print outs must have a wet-stamp w/dated & signature of a professional US-licensed engineer before going through the building permitting process in the US.

-All the project locations will only be in the US.

-All my clients are US base only

- All income will be deposit into US bank only

Note: I will not be taking a job away from the thais, because they can not do my line of works for my clients in the US, and all my clients are US based. I think these might be the main reasons why the labor dept is issuing "the work permit clearance letter" to me.

Below is the response letter from the thai labor dept and what I have to provide....

“From The Thai Labor dept To Sunbelt"

Please provide us as the letter states: Each doc has to be notarized by the state and then the Thai Embassy in the US.

1. A copy of his original passport

2. Evidences of business operation or establishment, any certificate issued by any authorized government sector to affirm or certify that he has actually own and operating his Company in USA.

3. Affirmation made by him warrants and affirms that his income or benefit is not gained in Thailand, and his customers or the businesses of his company are not in Thailand.

4. A marriage certificate between him and his Thai wife

5. Current and present address of him & Thai wife

6. Certificates of company registration of the questioner

I'm going to bed now - it's 2:30 am here in the US, I'm working late tonight

Good luck in your case

girlx....... just took a look at the quote you seemed to have referred to numerous times. I suggest that you look at number 2, 3 and number 6 very carefully. I believe you have none of those. So even if they will issue such a letter you will be not eligible. From what I can see this does not apply to you.

Edited January 5, 2007 by mouse

[friend2]

Help me understand this right.

If you get a clearance letter, you wouldn't need a WP, but would still be eligible for

extensions on your Visa right ?

This would be beneficial if you were under 50 years of age, and not married to a Thai.

BUT, as BKK90210 state, in his reply fom the labor dep:

4. A marriage certificate between him and his Thai wife

So,you have to be married to qualify for this ?

If so, it effectively closes the loophole being created, that would allow

an under 50 years of age,not married person, to extend his visa, without the need for a WP...

The only other way (that I know of), for you to not need a WP and being under 50,

is if you're married, and declares the wife's income.

I don't really understand the tax issue squabbles.

If the company is located in the US, and he pays taxes there, great.

Would the thai tax department come after you if you get this clearance thingy, I don't see why ?

[LivinLOS]

Again with no malice or attack intended..

The law is clear, your working, you need either a WP or a WP exemption, you need to pay Thai taxes, you have avenues available to you to get a WP.. You simply don't want to face the costs of legalizing yourself and your visa status.

i have never said i don't want to face the costs of legalizing myself, that was another poster going on about that. if the labor department comes back again and says no we changed our mind, you aren't legal, do this and this, i will. my point is, i don't believe it is necessary to form my own amity company and get a thai work permit as the company i am working for is in the US.

Its a chain of things, if working in Thailand you need a WP (or an exemption letter), to get the WP you need the company.. Hence to legalize you need to do those things (company and compliance) that are required to get a WP and pay some taxes here.

I believe where your income is derived is neither here nor there..

you believe.... my response from the law firm who is talking to the labor department is that they did not deem it necessary that i have a work permit.

Not the point (and technically not true either) the point is your earning money while working in Thailand, that means you now have a Thai tax obligation. Thats not defined by WP but defined by your place your living while you work. Secondly to pay that tax that is owed you need a WP so then again see above.

Also they didnt say you dont need a WP they admitted (and I would love to see this in writing from them) that they are unable to catch you doing this, therefore the risk associated with this non compliance is low. They didnt say it was not a rule, they said they cannot easily enforce this rule.. Very different thing.

If you were sat in an office in Bangkok working for a multinational doing exactly the same you'd expect to pay tax, have a WP wouldn't you???

The "online world" is no different from the "real world"

the difference is that multinational company would have a presence within thailand and thus competitors for the job would be thai.

Makes no difference if that place of work is a multinationals 20 story office block or your backyard hammock. Makes no difference if the company only takes work from outside of Thailand or not. Its working inside Thailand and supporting yourself through those earnings. In both cases you need to consider WP, taxes, visa status, etc.. all these things fall into place once legalized.

Only you will be able to decide of legitimacy is going to be worth it for you. However I cant see how you can not see this is quite clear in what is or is not legitimate, even if not prosecuted or they have no way of tracking you, you have to be able to see that working without a WP is not going to be legal or grey.. All work requires a WP.

[LivinLOS]

Help me understand this right.

If you get a clearance letter, you wouldn't need a WP, but would still be eligible for

extensions on your Visa right ?

This would be beneficial if you were under 50 years of age, and not married to a Thai.

Exactly why I am not holding any breath over this.. To start to give these exemptions out would allow so many people to get all the benefits and no drawbacks, Visa's, no Thai tax, No WP.. Totally contrary to everything thats normal for Thai labour and immigration dept.

Whats in it for them ???

I don't really understand the tax issue squabbles.

If the company is located in the US, and he pays taxes there, great.

Would the thai tax department come after you if you get this clearance thingy, I don't see why ?

I dont see how many people can not get this.

When your in a country, and you have a job, your working.. You pay them taxes !! You may have to remit to your home country as well depending on many many variables but almost always (DTA exceptions mentioned earlier) you have to pay taxes in the country where your working.

You cant simply move to a high tax country and say its OK I will just keep remitting it to my home country because its easier or cheaper to do so, I dont owe anything here.. You wouldnt expect to import a bunch of Indian programmers to California and not take Cali deductions and comply to Californian labour laws can you ?? why should you expect to do it in the other direction.

[lopburi3]

The thread long ago lost the plot and now is a work/job issue and will be moved there for those that wish to continue the debate.

[LivinLOS]

Dont see how its an jobs economy banking or investment thing..

Its basically a WP and need to got one issue..

But hey, your the mod..

[kudroz]

Girlx

It doesn't matter if you are working using internet, a notepad or a car for that matter. What matters is that you are physically present in Thailand performing the activities for which you are remunerated. Do yourself a favor and consult an international firm which has presence both in Thailand and the United States (KPMG comes to mind) who can properly advise you. Do not rely on the smiling ones working behind the counter at the labor office who are not versed into Thai law. By telecommuting for a foreign company while being physically present in Thailand, you are in either one of these two situations:

1. Employed (as being on the payroll) of a foreing Company

Your foreign employer is legally obligated to register a branch, representative or regional office (depending on your activities) in Thailand. By "telecommuting", you establish a presence for the foreign company in Thailand. Also, there will be tax obligations for any profit earned by the parent company that are connected to the office in Thailand. Once the office is registered in Thailand, you'll apply for a work permit - work and pay your personal taxes legally in Thailand.

2. Independant Contractor invoicing a foreign Company

As a foreigner, to be personally invoicing a foreing Company for services that you've performed while being present in Thailand, you need to be registered as a sole-proprietor. If this is not available to you - I am affraid to say that it would be illegal for you to be invoicing and/or receiving compensation for the activities you have performed in Thailand. (the so-called gray area). If you do not like complicated procedures, you can either leave Thailand quit your job or remain an illegal worker. The only way to be able to legally invoice and/or receive compensation would be to register a Amity Company, form a limited Company or limited Partnership. When this is done, you'll apply for a work permit - work and pay your personal (and corporate) taxes legally in Thailand.

There you have it.

Edited January 5, 2007 by kudroz

[girlx]

mouse, that was not the response i was referring to, i asked sunbelt directly about my situation specifically and their quoted reply is on another thread here.

as for livinlos and others- we could go around and around for days on this but the bottom line is we disagree. end of subject for me.

Edited January 5, 2007 by girlx

[kudroz]

sorry edited my post to late, please read my last post above.

[kudroz]

mouse, that was not the response i was referring to, i asked sunbelt directly about my situation specifically and their quoted reply is on another thread here.

as for livinlos and others- we could go around and around for days on this but the bottom line is we disagree. end of subject for me.

I am a client of Sunbelt and I like them very much but, as far as I'm concerned, I think their advise is bad in regards to that matter. They have also advised me the same - their argument is based on the fact that it would be remotely impossible for the labor department to catch you working; pretexting that you could be doing anything on your computer and close that page you are working on when they walk in the room - leaving them with an absence or un-enforceable proof.

Regardless of the odds that they catch you or not - it doesn't change the facts that what you are doing is illegal.

[LivinLOS]

mouse, that was not the response i was referring to, i asked sunbelt directly about my situation specifically and their quoted reply is on another thread here.

as for livinlos and others- we could go around and around for days on this but the bottom line is we disagree. end of subject for me.

And no where in that response does it say you are legal.. What is says is that it would be very hard for them to catch you..

So if it is legal then let me ask you this.. what is it that they cannot trace or catch you doing ?? Breaking the law thats what !!

Despite your counter claims you have not presented one piece of evidence to show why this is, or would be legal, every piece of evidence says its not.

[RAZZELL]

Despite your counter claims you have not presented one piece of evidence to show why this is, or would be legal, every piece of evidence says its not.

Touche

[RAZZELL]

as for livinlos and others- we could go around and around for days on this but the bottom line is we disagree. end of subject for me.

Yeah..we're right and you're wrong

Let me ask you two simple questions:

Question 1: Are you working?

Answer: Yes

Question 2: Do you have a work permit?

Answer: No

Simple...

How you can't see that you're "working" illegally is beyond me

Edited January 5, 2007 by RAZZELL

[mouse]

mouse, that was not the response i was referring to, i asked sunbelt directly about my situation specifically and their quoted reply is on another thread here.

as for livinlos and others- we could go around and around for days on this but the bottom line is we disagree. end of subject for me.

I looked at what you referred to and would still advise you to get legalized.

If the Thai authorities feel that they are loosing a substantial amount of tax revenues, which they are, especially in cases such as yours, then they will eventually find a way to tighten screws on everyone, to control such conduct. It is very easy for them to analyze snippets of your traffic and take a look from time to time. The may even install draconian measures allowing faster access only to those that have a company or work permit. This is actually the rule but it is being ignored at this time. Many overcome this by registering their connection connection through their Thasi spouses. In my case, I remember that when first applying for ipStar, that they wanted copies of Passport, Visa, Work permit and company registration. To avoid the hassle I put everything in my wife's name and am now changing it back to my company. So like everything else in LOS, the rules are there, as to wether being selectively enforced and in some sort fo harmony ....... well that is another story.

Some more food for thought is.......that they can go to your websites, look at your portfolios, which you have plenty of, date the work that is posted and then see if it coincides with your presence here. Busted again.

The Thai authorities also spend time on this forum thereby learning how to adjust their rules and regulations to reach out and touch those of us that think we are immune from their reach.

Just give up get it done and never worry again. It is in your interest. In your particular case, one contract would pay for the whole thing.

Edited January 6, 2007 by mouse

[friend2]

The Thai authorities also spend time on this forum thereby learning how to adjust their rules and regulations to reach out and touch those of us that think we are immune from their reach.

If so, not much seems to have been learned by all the feedback here...

For instance, different immigration offices has different rules.

Many foreigners are being forced to plea their cases in Bangkok only, as the

local immigration offices says it can't be done, or claim different rules.

(has been posted in several threads).

No improvement there over the years.

I could give plenty of other examples, that should concern any "authoritorian person"

visiting here.

Offcourse, I wish they would come here.

Just doesn't seem to be happening.

[autonomous_unit]

Mouse, not to dimish the suggestion to "go legal" but I think the only reason they want things like passport, work permit, etc. for things like internet subscriptions or phones is because they lack a credit rating and debt collection system to deal with all the "tourists" who set up camp and then skip out of Thailand without paying their bills.

[mouse]

Mouse, not to dimish the suggestion to "go legal" but I think the only reason they want things like passport, work permit, etc. for things like internet subscriptions or phones is because they lack a credit rating and debt collection system to deal with all the "tourists" who set up camp and then skip out of Thailand without paying their bills.

Could be, but I do not see how copies of those documents gets the money to the bank. A Thai is just as likely to skip out on a debt as a farang. I believe that the spirit of the rule may have been what I was on about. If it was not then may be it will be inthe future.

If so, not much seems to have been learned by all the feedback here...

For instance, different immigration offices has different rules.

Many foreigners are being forced to plea their cases in Bangkok only, as the

local immigration offices says it can't be done, or claim different rules.

(has been posted in several threads).

No improvement there over the years.

I could give plenty of other examples, that should concern any "authoritorian person"

visiting here.

Offcourse, I wish they would come here.

Just doesn't seem to be happening.

Just the fact that some clients now travel to Bangkok and leave the other offices to take their long lunches etc. tells me a lot. Then again it could be as simple as a lack of training causing what you mentioned. Look at it this way, if the world were perfect, this forum, lawyers and a lot of others to include the hardnosed beraucrat would be no longer needed.

[Sunny Valentine]

I am afraid I have to agree to most of what you're saying here.

And after rereading this thread as well as the others it is related to, I stay with my previously posted opinion: If this is a small scale business, with not enough income to make use of a company structure (i.e. no work available for employees) as well as generated income under the personal tax limits, I would go on without bothering about their rules too much. Everyone here does it, and the authorities have shown already so many times that they themselves have no respect for their laws either. The chances that someone gets cought are minimal, the enforcement of a silly and unenforceable working law is impossible (once again, where to start? Driving? Gardening? Phoning your foreign employer while on holiday? All this is illegal under the wording of the law. I have yet to find one bona fide 2 week tourist not breaking this law somewhere!), and most of the "legal" ways proposed here and elsewhere could well be considered illegal circumventions of other existing laws.

This is Thailand, this is their Country, and they want it this way, with unclear regulations and varying shades of grey. So be it.

Sunny

[LivinLOS]

And after rereading this thread as well as the others it is related to, I stay with my previously posted opinion: If this is a small scale business, with not enough income to make use of a company structure (i.e. no work available for employees) as well as generated income under the personal tax limits

However girlx is in the position where she can have an Amity company.. She can be a sole proprietor !!!

And she has a visa problem.. Solved..

And she qualifies to get 82k or so US earnings tax free...

To me the benefits of being legal seems pretty good in her situation..

[ArranP]

I agree, tax is due by location, subject to the 183 day rule under double taxation treaties.

When one stays relocated for more than 183 days tax is due in the country/location where one is physically geographically working from, otherwise if relocated for less than 183 days the tax is due in their home country.

[LivinLOS]

I agree, tax is due by location, subject to the 183 day rule under double taxation treaties.

When one stays relocated for more than 183 days tax is due in the country/location where one is physically geographically working from, otherwise if relocated for less than 183 days the tax is due in their home country.

Thats applicable for some / most cases but there is also the local sourced income which would be taxed locally from day 1.

[yankee-expat]

You whiny non-Americans are getting on my last nerve. What a bunch of babies you are. "I have to pay so why shouldn't he."

You make your own choices.

If someone in Thailand is using the Internet to produce a work product for another country then it has nothing to with Thailand or the Thai Tax system. The work product is being performed in the other country, not LOS.

Example. If I run a business that makes websites for Americans, the product is in America. My brain may be here, but no Thai was excluded from getting the same work. Ridiculous. This whole thread is bordering on ridiculous but it started out as one man's explanation of how he is doing it. I wouldn't do it that way, but as they say here, up to him.

It galls me that the little petty jealousies rear their ugly heads all over the place because you aren't smart enough to structure it properly in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you would "drop a dime" (that's turn them in) on the ones who have intellectual property if you knew who they were. It disgusts me.

[yankee-expat]

And one more for all you want EVERYONE to pay their fair share -

If a guy comes to Thailand, has 1 million dollar invested and plays with his investments - all in the USA, UK - not in Thailand, you want him to pay taxes on the earnings since he manipulated the money from LOS?

Run through that one.

[RAZZELL]

You whiny non-Americans are getting on my last nerve. What a bunch of babies you are. "I have to pay so why shouldn't he."

You make your own choices.

If someone in Thailand is using the Internet to produce a work product for another country then it has nothing to with Thailand or the Thai Tax system. The work product is being performed in the other country, not LOS.

Example. If I run a business that makes websites for Americans, the product is in America. My brain may be here, but no Thai was excluded from getting the same work. Ridiculous. This whole thread is bordering on ridiculous but it started out as one man's explanation of how he is doing it. I wouldn't do it that way, but as they say here, up to him.

It galls me that the little petty jealousies rear their ugly heads all over the place because you aren't smart enough to structure it properly in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you would "drop a dime" (that's turn them in) on the ones who have intellectual property if you knew who they were. It disgusts me.

As a whiny non-american I couldn't care less what other people do... It's up to them...

BUT...the fact that I and other posters made is that is was, and is illegal...Endof

It is were you are PHYSICALLY located that matters, not where the "product" is used..If you were located in America designing websites for Thailand, do you think the IRS would follow your argument?

I don't think so...

[LivinLOS]

You whiny non-Americans are getting on my last nerve. What a bunch of babies you are. "I have to pay so why shouldn't he."

You make your own choices.

If someone in Thailand is using the Internet to produce a work product for another country then it has nothing to with Thailand or the Thai Tax system. The work product is being performed in the other country, not LOS.

Example. If I run a business that makes websites for Americans, the product is in America. My brain may be here, but no Thai was excluded from getting the same work. Ridiculous. This whole thread is bordering on ridiculous but it started out as one man's explanation of how he is doing it. I wouldn't do it that way, but as they say here, up to him.

It galls me that the little petty jealousies rear their ugly heads all over the place because you aren't smart enough to structure it properly in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you would "drop a dime" (that's turn them in) on the ones who have intellectual property if you knew who they were. It disgusts me.

You opinion is just that.. Your fact are ass backwards..

You think its possible to live here and have a business selling websites to non Thais, with no WP, and not be breaking the law..

Your a total fool.. From a whiney non American..

Please show any rules or evidence why what you suggest is legal.

[LivinLOS]

And one more for all you want EVERYONE to pay their fair share -

If a guy comes to Thailand, has 1 million dollar invested and plays with his investments - all in the USA, UK - not in Thailand, you want him to pay taxes on the earnings since he manipulated the money from LOS?

Run through that one.

Yes if the poster is here more than 183 day then the question of worldwide income and capital gains on all his savings wou;d also come into the equation.. Many countries have exclusions on income not generated within that country but many also dont.. It would depend how Thailand treats 'worldwide income'.

If he was doing ther same as a full time job then legally he should do so from day one.

[yankee-expat]

Please show any rules or evidence why what you suggest is legal.

You have no understanding of law. I don't have to prove to you I can do something, you prove to me that I cannot.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Whew. I see everyone getting along well on this topic.