With New Regulations, Is Work Permit Needed For Telecommuting Work?

[kudroz]

Sad to see a good thread like this one, with insightful facts, turned into this <deleted>.

[yankee-expat]

We have to proove compliance to varied governments by having business licenses.

Really "proovy" mate - grrrrrrr

You say we need a business license? Did the caveman who setup shop by the river selling live elephant need a license, or did he just sell it?

Then came government.

Someone passed a law.

Don't tell me I have to prove compliance unless you tell me the law that requires it. I didn't start out on this planet having to prove anything.

Laws.

Show them to me.

[sriracha john]

As per the whole point of this thread that was started 2 months ago BEFORE it went down some twisted walkway over the last week, is there ANY word on the work permit exemption letter being issued?

Edited January 9, 2007 by sriracha john

[yankee-expat]

Please note that this information is not inclusive of all the answers to questions involving work permits and related matters but is intended to address general issues. Whenever appropriate, please consult a lawyer versed in labor matters or the nearest Department of Employment official. Policies and procedures may change rapidly and without notice.

I lifted this off a law office website.

Not inclusive. Meaning, that there is more than just the general description that everyone around here boldly presents as THE LAW. No doubt there are pages and pages of text that pertains to this.

I'm curious if any of you know it all Americans know the difference between a statute and a regulation? Any takers?

Oh yeah, don't read my blog <snip> you'll probably chuckle and we wouldn't want that.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Jai Dee
Link to external blog deleted

[endure]

This thread calms down or it closes down.

[LivinLOS]

As per the whole point of this thread that was started 2 months ago BEFORE it went down some twisted walkway over the last week, is there ANY word on the work permit exemption letter being issued?

As of yet no.. And Sunbelt seem to have told Girlx not to attempt the application for an exemption based on the not being able to be caught arguement..

The most applicable will of course be BKK90210's.. By virtue of having a long term permanent establishment inside the US, by having certain certifications that are essential and not possible for a Thai to have (without also being in the US) would all be factors that in a sensible system of governance could be mitigating factors.

I have to feel though that the Thai way is simply to say 'you can get away with it' instead of setting a prescident by issuing a WP exemption. Certainly the argument for a WP exemption for any and all telecommuting work seems extremely far fetched.

Its an interesting situation and one that Thailand will most certainly have to create rules for at some stage as 'work' is now as mobile as it is in the knowledge based industries.

[sriracha john]

My situation is very similar to yours, I contacted Sunbelt and they did make a quick call to the labor dept ….the response’s “I don’t need a work permit in my case” and the thai labor dept is issuing me a clearance letter for this.

If you can actually get somebody official to issue such a work permit clearance letter, this would be big news for the telecommuters residing in Thailand. Please keep us posted one way or the other...

I will keep you posted. They had all my paperworks (1" thick) since last week, so it should be any day now.

BUMPED

As it's coming up on 5 months now... I guess we can presume that a work permit exemption letter is unobtainable from any source???

Edited March 27, 2007 by sriracha john

[JimsKnight]

You whiny non-Americans are getting on my last nerve. What a bunch of babies you are. "I have to pay so why shouldn't he."

You make your own choices.

If someone in Thailand is using the Internet to produce a work product for another country then it has nothing to with Thailand or the Thai Tax system. The work product is being performed in the other country, not LOS.

Example. If I run a business that makes websites for Americans, the product is in America. My brain may be here, but no Thai was excluded from getting the same work. Ridiculous. This whole thread is bordering on ridiculous but it started out as one man's explanation of how he is doing it. I wouldn't do it that way, but as they say here, up to him.

It galls me that the little petty jealousies rear their ugly heads all over the place because you aren't smart enough to structure it properly in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you would "drop a dime" (that's turn them in) on the ones who have intellectual property if you knew who they were. It disgusts me.

Yankee man, I'm non-american but I totally rally behind you on this one. I'm glad the voice of reason and the real world has spoken up. Had it been I then I fear the moderators would have slammed me in the cooler for a few weeks!

Its like when I'm at work offshore, all the safety iosh boys give their spiel about this and that and sign here and sign there.

When you're out on the platform doing your thing its always a different story to whats down on paper. For gods sakes we're human beings not mindless robots. This beauracratic nonsense about 'do this' and 'do that' is absolute nonsense, it belongs in the surreal and alternate dimension of beaurocracy. If its not screwing the thai working man or woman then live and let live. These whiner pseudo poo-yai farang lamenting how the meek farang must do this and that because they have a zillion baht stuffed away to afford to do so can get knotted.

When everybody comes away from their PC and closes TV down until the next time I'm sure it will be to do something different than whats being trumpeted by LivingLOS and the pseudo hi-so crew.

[LivinLOS]

When everybody comes away from their PC and closes TV down until the next time I'm sure it will be to do something different than whats being trumpeted by LivingLOS and the pseudo hi-so crew.

I dont mind how anyone makes a living and dont mind even if they are breaking the rules and laws to do it..

I just take exception when it is presented as the legal way to do something when it is not the legal way.. People should be aware when they are breaking the law.

Also as its now many months since BKK90210's application and we are not getting any confirm.. I can only assume that I was correct in saying that a WP exemption letter is not likely to be forthcoming for telecommuting work.

For those that claim otherwise, you work where your physically located.. Just because your profit is generated elsewhere or the end use is elsewhere makes no difference. If I sit in the UK building websites for the US (or germany or whatever) I pay taxes in UK, not the US or germany / wherever.

[girlx]

actually Americans are tax exempt according to the foreign earned income exclusion up to 80k or so- this is based on where you live, not where your income is earned. US citizens living in Thailand would need to pay taxes to Thailand instead. however since there is no business visa/work permit situation here that covers telecommuting work, it's hard to figure out how to get legal.

[LivinLOS]

Whats hard to figure out ?? Amity company.. Sole proprietor.. Legal.

[Gerry290]

I telework into europe, phone and email, and I have a company based in an EU state.

Me, I am not married, so to be on safe side, I sent up a Thai company, got a Non Immigrant B visa, and also a work permit for my company, and its main business, but also to cover any other internet business I do, and also to cover me, as a self defence instructor too, which are all services my company can provide...the latter part is something I will do later in the year.

Also setting up a company, of course, allows me to hire on a Personal Assistant, to help me in my work, for about 10 - 20% of what similar person would cost in europe.

I do not like "grey areas" especially the way the 30 day tourist long stay guys got cuaght out...so I d rather stump up, operate totally legite and within the law, and pay the taxes. (all done with Sunbelt, who I find very efficent, after I go t screwed over by a thai "lawyer" who was really just a business agent.

So, I do not need to be sneaking around, teleworking, or with other biz I am involved in. and I can hold my head high, and say to any Thai business person... I am a tax payer to the Thai government too... just like you are. seems to get some respect too. (do it still does not cut in, on things like a Thai casino bus I was on recently where I was charged 200 bhat each way, and the Locals only 100 bhat...as I was only farang on the bus, it was a great source of amusement for the whole bus... and the I am Thai Tax payer line did not work!!!)

[LivinLOS]

@Gerry290, exactly thats how you get legal.. Of course there are some steps, of course it costs some money, but thats the price of being in the system.

Its always so funny to me when people working in Thailand illegally say that its grey area or that is not possible to get legal.. what they really mean is it might cost them something to do so.

I think if Thailands consuls stop issuing back to back tourist visa's so they no longer have easy access to the country there would be a flood of people suddenly looking to get legit and gain thier non imm B.

[girlx]

i just got back from a visa run and spent an hour with the consulate officer going over my situation. he insisted i am totally fine doing back to back tourist visas, as there is no other visa which applies to my situation (telecommuting from thailand for companies in US). there would be no point at all whatsoever in my setting up a treaty of amity company here, as i am an employee in america.

Edited May 6, 2007 by girlx

[sriracha john]

i just got back from a visa run and spent an hour with the consulate officer going over my situation. he insisted i am totally fine doing back to back tourist visas, as there is no other visa which applies to my situation (telecommuting from thailand for companies in US). there would be no point at all whatsoever in my setting up a treaty of amity company here, as i am an employee in america.

Now all you got to do is get the Ministry of Labour to concur that your work is not in need of a work permit and you'll be good to go.

[RAZZELL]

as i am an employee in america.

If you say so

RAZZ

[tjo o tjim]

I know this keeps getting argued over, but aren't there three distinct issues at hand?

1) Is a Work Permit required for telecommuting from Thailand?

2) Can a Visa be obtained to allow someone to telecommute from Thailand?

3) Are taxes due for work done telecommuting from Thailand for work elsewhere?

The simple one is point (3). You have to pay taxes somewhere. If you don't have a work permit, there is no mechanism to pay in Thailand, so you have to pay in your home country. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be paying in Thailand, just that there is no way for you to do it. If you fail to pay in your home country, you are evading tax.

If you are eligible for a retirement visa, if you are married to a Thai citizen, or if you can survive with tourist visas and visa waivers, point (2) is moot. The tourist visa route will likely cause problems long term, so you *might* be better off just setting up a company.

As for work permits, it completely depends on how you approach the visa, and how much of a state of flux you want to be in.

While the prospect is quite a pain, setting up a legitimate company is the only way that you can legally establish yourself. Ultimately, you need to have Thai partners unless you can get away with the Amity Treaty company. It is a shame-- I know most countries don't impose that type of limitation on establishing a business, but instead focus on making sure they get the tax revenue.

[solo siam]

I think its all too new for the Thai Government to have any great plans for telecommuting.

Take for example the following;

Someone on Holiday checks and answers their emails, or makes some business phone calls - Do they need a work permit?

What if its a 3 month holiday?

or 6 months?

Someone makes some stock transactions back home over the internet here in Thailand, is this taxable?

Someone makes 5% interest on their savings back home, whilst holidaying here for 8 weeks, Or someone who rents out houses in the UK whilst spending the year here.

I would suggest that if the online company is not based here, have anything to do with Thailand, does not take a job away from Thai people or work away from Thai companies and payments are not made into a Thai Bank account then I don't see how it falls into Thai Jurisdiction. At the end of the day who in Thailand has the ability to check on how profitable for example, a website is?, how much work has been done in Thailand? and what taxes would be due etc...

If you don't have an office, transactions going through Thai businesses or bank accounts, and your online business is not Thai related I wouldn't see it as illegal.

[Sunny Valentine]

For those that claim otherwise, you work where your physically located.. Just because your profit is generated elsewhere or the end use is elsewhere makes no difference. If I sit in the UK building websites for the US (or germany or whatever) I pay taxes in UK, not the US or germany / wherever.

So how and where do you file your tax declarations for the work you do on a flight from Bangkok to, say, London?

This is just getting absurd IMHO.

Sunny

[erikr_]

For those that claim otherwise, you work where your physically located.. Just because your profit is generated elsewhere or the end use is elsewhere makes no difference. If I sit in the UK building websites for the US (or germany or whatever) I pay taxes in UK, not the US or germany / wherever.

So how and where do you file your tax declarations for the work you do on a flight from Bangkok to, say, London?

This is just getting absurd IMHO.

Sunny

Simple answer

to the flight attendant, you might get some fun out of it

[RAZZELL]

For those that claim otherwise, you work where your physically located.. Just because your profit is generated elsewhere or the end use is elsewhere makes no difference. If I sit in the UK building websites for the US (or germany or whatever) I pay taxes in UK, not the US or germany / wherever.

So how and where do you file your tax declarations for the work you do on a flight from Bangkok to, say, London?

This is just getting absurd IMHO.

Sunny

I think you're getting a little bit pedantic there

And the answer would be simple. I am resident in the UK for tax purposes, therefore I would pay tax in the uk. I hardly think working mid-flight is a valid argument. It takes this discussion nowhere

I just don't see how some members can't see how physically working on a web-based business (no matter where it was located) wouldn't render you liable for a work-permit

If you worked in an office rather than in your hotel room, condo, house whatever, do you think the Immigration Authorities might take a little bit more interest???

If someone posts a letter from a recognised government department to say you don't need one I will eat a large slice of humble pie...GirlX???

RAZZ

Edited May 14, 2007 by RAZZELL

[RAZZELL]

I think its all too new for the Thai Government to have any great plans for telecommuting.

Take for example the following;

Someone on Holiday checks and answers their emails, or makes some business phone calls - Do they need a work permit?

What if its a 3 month holiday?

or 6 months?

Someone makes some stock transactions back home over the internet here in Thailand, is this taxable?

Someone makes 5% interest on their savings back home, whilst holidaying here for 8 weeks, Or someone who rents out houses in the UK whilst spending the year here.

I would suggest that if the online company is not based here, have anything to do with Thailand, does not take a job away from Thai people or work away from Thai companies and payments are not made into a Thai Bank account then I don't see how it falls into Thai Jurisdiction. At the end of the day who in Thailand has the ability to check on how profitable for example, a website is?, how much work has been done in Thailand? and what taxes would be due etc...

If you don't have an office, transactions going through Thai businesses or bank accounts, and your online business is not Thai related I wouldn't see it as illegal.

Let me address some of your points:

1) Ben, if you make a business phone call, are you working???

2) If someone has investments, rented propertes etc they would pay tax in the UK if they were resident for tax purposes.

3) Of course the business has something to do with Thailand. It would be run from here.

4) If you don't have offices, banks a/c's or a work permit, it just means you're "operating under the radar"...what happens when you "pop-up" on the radar???

People can do what they like...But if I wanted to "telecommute" I would do it legally. A holiday or Travel Visa is just that, for a holiday. A Work Permit or Business Visa is just that, for working. End of story.

RAZZ

Edited May 14, 2007 by RAZZELL

[JimsKnight]

These are my thoughts so you can take them or leave them....

Yes and No, you do not need a work-permit. Yes the Thai law states you do, but as we all know, the law in Thailand is a very flexible thing, and on this subject its very much in the shadows. Unless you enjoy contributing to the thai governments / a certain sponsors coffers then if I was you I'd play it like the three wise monkeys. You pay tax in your home country, not in Thailand. There is no such thing as double-taxation if you pay your tax in your country of origin. People may advise you to do this and do that because they wanna err on the side of caution but the hard and fast rule is to play it cool and don't advertise the fact. On the other hand if you've declared yourself a tax exile and are getting you UK money tax free then your technically obliged to declare tax to thailand as you've not been taxed in the UK.

To me and quite a few others, the internet is essentially a global tool and governments meddling in it all the time means very little in the grand scheme of things.

Don't sweat it, people will do their internet thing, stocks and shares etc etc and the immigration boys are hardly likely to be kicking down your door unless someone grasses you up and you are conducting multi-million pound hostile take-over bids for companies based in Thailand without a wp.

[mouse]

I see that we are at it again. I am willing to bet that some people use the same arguments when talking to authoirities in the states about their taxes there. Oh! I should not have to pay taxes cause I work and live abroad.......they proably say. That is what this is all about or not??????

Unfortunately since they will not be able to proove that, as they have no record of foreign tax being paid, work permit etc. etc. thus they will be forced to pay all the U.S. Taxes no matter how minute the income is. Of course the other method would be to not declare the income at all. But that is a dangerous game. Look at this

With time the autorities will catch up to people skirting the issues in Thailand and they will be asked to leave. In the USA, if found out, they would additionally pay a lot of taxes and penalties.

Think about it, when the Thai authorities made the law they did make provision for those working for a foreign company with you working from here. That is why you have to proove the employment with a firm rather than being a mere consultant etc.

I hasten to mention that have formed my Amity Company and have the applicable work permit, my required Thai workers and am paying my 30% like a good little citizen.

[RAZZELL]

I hasten to mention that have formed my Amity Company and have the applicable work permit, my required Thai workers and am paying my 30% like a good little citizen.

And no doubt sleep a little more soundly in your bed

RAZZ

[girlx]

i'm not worried- i pay my taxes to the US, where i am employed. i have already spoken to thai immigration officials who verified a tourist visa is fine for my situation (there is no other applicable visa), and with a lawyer at sunbelt who says thus far he had been told telecommuters (whose projects and income don't cross thailand's lines) don't need the work permit. i do not take anything from thailand, i only contribute. so who gives a rats ass what some jealous nitpicks on this board say? if the situation changes and thailand throws me out, i will go and be happy that i had a good run of it! but what is the likelihood of that? it would not be in their best interest to do so as if i leave, they get nothing, whereas while i am here, spending my american wages, they are getting quite a bit.

[ovenman]

i have already spoken to thai immigration officials who verified a tourist visa is fine for my situation (there is no other applicable visa), and with a lawyer at sunbelt who says thus far he had been told telecommuters (whose projects and income don't cross thailand's lines) don't need the work permit.

Did you get this seeming modification of the rules governing what constitues work in Thailand in writing from any of these officials?

[sriracha john]

i have already spoken to thai immigration officials who verified a tourist visa is fine for my situation (there is no other applicable visa), and with a lawyer at sunbelt who says thus far he had been told telecommuters (whose projects and income don't cross thailand's lines) don't need the work permit.

Did you get this seeming modification of the rules governing what constitutes work in Thailand in writing from any of these officials?

This must simply ecstatic news about the work permit-exemption letters finally coming through from the Ministry. For BKK90210 especially, in going back to Post#2 and #7 and etc., we can all see how's she's been ever so patient since waiting for them since November 2006. It's great... I hope someone can PM her to tell her that her letter's arrived!... She'll be over the moon with joy.

My situation is very similar to yours, I contacted Sunbelt and they did make a quick call to the labor dept ….the response's “I don't need a work permit in my case” and the thai labor dept is issuing me a clearance letter for this.

If you can actually get somebody official to issue such a work permit clearance letter, this would be big news for the telecommuters residing in Thailand. Please keep us posted one way or the other...

I will keep you posted. They had all my paperworks (1" thick) since last week, so it should be any day now.

I’m still in the US and processing these docs thru Sunbelt. According to Sunbelt, once they have filed these it will take about 1 - 2 weeks for the labor department to process. I will inform you as soon as I have any news from Sunbelt. It could be by the end of this week or next week hopefully.

John

Just got email from Sunbelt,

They have checked with the labor department again yesterday, and got the response back that the labor dept have not processed my case yet,….guess mine is not the urgent case.

That's ok I'm not in a rush or anything and still have plenty of works to finish off here.

Will keep everyone posted of the outcome

You could also add a 4th as yet unproven solution which would be to try and obtain a WP exemption. Wonder what fees it would take Sunbelt to try it and see ??

In my case:

A very small fee for me since I (via Sunbelt) already had the verbal approval via phone call a day earlier from the labor dept, but still have yet to see the actual exemption letter myself. So far Sunbelt has been calling them periodically for the letter. May be they don't like writing that much.

Edited May 20, 2007 by sriracha john

[RAZZELL]

i'm not worried

You should be

RAZZ

[Prakanong]

i'm not worried

You should be

RAZZ

Well if they want to go for a person in this position they always ahave the excuse. If they want you for anything or to extract money from you they always have the excuse.

If a local, Thai of farang, has a petty grudge against you they know how to get at you.

I know that myself and a lot of colleagues do not bother with WP's for our short business trips to Thailand as its just to much of a hassle but we would have a large public company behind us for his with its raft of lawyers to smooth the way.

I would not be doing any telecommuting work on a tourist visa though - even if I got a non-imm O or B.