Married (thai Wife), Moving To Thailand

[kriswillems]

kriswillems -

You are severely underpaid in your country! I have a similar background, and make 3 times that amount in the US.... and I thought I was underpaid.

The US is not a country with high taxes. I've worked a while in Sunnyvale, CA (Silicon valley). I am aware the income is higher there. We pay much higher taxes in my home country but in return we get almost free education, free health insurance that covers almost everything during your whole life, a pension and an acceptable income when we loose our job. Incomes are very difficult to compare although I admit my collegues in silicon valley had a higher life standard than most Western-European engineers have ... at least until the dot-com crisis (and their life standard was really not that much higher).

I am really not underpaid.

[kriswillems]

You are a bit condescending are you not.

Condescending, that’s the right word; I couldn’t have said it better myself.

I do not mind that the OP’s wife cheats on taxes, not one little bit. No skin off my back.

I respect the OP for taking upon himself the inconvenience caused by his wife’s cheating, i.e. his inability to obtain an annual extension of stay. This is true love.

But when he then comes to this forum and complains that the immigration rules are unfair to him, that’s when it gets too much for me. That’s when I become condescending.

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Maestro

I think you know more than me. I never said my wifes shop will cheat taxes. In fact, she doesn't even own the shop at this moment and she's not even staying in Thailand. Her mother runs that shop. I think you don't really understand the Thai tax system with self-employed people in small shops. They do no bookkeeping like we know it in Europe or the US. None of these shops keeps any proof of income. Their income is just estimated by a taxator that comes to visit their shop. Almost every similar shop in the same area pays the same tax amount (to keep things fair). The taxators have a good idea of the income a shop should make.

We will pay taxes just like all Thai people do (not more and not less). Why do you call this cheating?

[rainman]

i just spoke to a friend of mine, he's married in thailand and lives upcountry on his own small farm. he hasn't applied for a marriage visa before october 1st so he won't qualify for the 400k and he only makes around 10k-15k per month together with his wife. what are the options for him? going to penang every 3 months to get a non-imm O visa based on his marriage or he's got to leave the country for 3 months every time?

[Firefan]

rainman; yes Penang non-O 3 mth, or maybe go to home country and obtain 1 year at a time. Cheers!

[Dakhar]

So, essentially those that could afford to retire in Thailand below the age of 50 can not.

Essentially if you did, you would be again, paying Tax on saved income. Wonderful! I came here thinking it would be a chance to slow down. Instead I work 3 times as hard for less money. Oh but I get the chance to live in LOS... Land of Smirks.

I have the money to slow down, but I'll be da-m-n-ed before I give up money for taxes on my savings account.

If I have to work forever, I might as well go back to Faralang land and do so in air-conditioning, and drive a car worth owning!

[kriswillems]

i just spoke to a friend of mine, he's married in thailand and lives upcountry on his own small farm. he hasn't applied for a marriage visa before october 1st so he won't qualify for the 400k and he only makes around 10k-15k per month together with his wife. what are the options for him? going to penang every 3 months to get a non-imm O visa based on his marriage or he's got to leave the country for 3 months every time?

In my opinion the cheapest option is to fly to the closest embassy that issues multiple entry non-immigrant O visas. The second cheapest option is going to Peneng obtaining a non-immigrant-o visa and stay 3 months on tourist stamps after this visa expires. The third cheapest option is paying tax on income that you don't have.

The very cheapest option may just be to stay illegally in Thailand and wait until you're fined the 20K. In fact, I believe that this will become the solution choosen by many.

I still have a hard time to understand why Thai government wants to break up families like these, while retired people that have no relation with Thailand at all are allowed just showing 800K.

By my knowledge there are not many countries with this kind of strict and absurd rule for married couples. And there are also not many countries that just allow someone to stay there (of any nationality, with 800K) only because he's older than 50.

Edited November 4, 2006 by kriswillems

[Maestro]

If I have to work forever, I might as well go back to Faralang land and do so in air-conditioning, and drive a car worth owning!

You are absolutely right. Work should be enjoyment, not drudgery.

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Maestro

[coldcrush]

If I have to work forever, I might as well go back to Faralang land and do so in air-conditioning, and drive a car worth owning!

You are absolutely right. Work should be enjoyment, not drudgery.

---------------

Maestro

Try working on an oil rig in Africa or Middle East, no time to fit aircon...you lot lead a good life...swap

[kudroz]

What if the money is taxed by the US, which has a tax-treaty (or something like that) with Thailand?

If things work out, I was planning to seek a job in the US that would permit me to telecommute (thus permitting me to work from my wife's home in Thailand). I would arrive in Thailand with a multiple-entry Non-Imm-O visa. I would access funds thru the ATM. How is Thailand going to 1) know I am working, and 2) be able to tax me?

It is a complicated matter and it has many exceptions and rules, it's better to consult with a tax attorney on your particular situation, but generally speaking:

If you are non-resident alien of the US

You are not subject to US income taxes nor US withholding taxes on your non-US source income that is not effectively connected with a trade or business conducted in the US (ECI).

I.e: You provide personal services from Thailand as an employee or independent contractor to a US payer. You will have to fill the form W8-BEN or 8233 and give it to the US payer and will not be subject to US withholding taxes.

In the example given above, your source of income would be in Thailand (commonly called: derived from Thailand, Thailand earned income, Thai source income) therefore you are subject to Thai taxation regardless on how, when or where your income is remitted.

If you are a non-resident but citizen of the US

You are subject to US income taxes on your worldwide income but may qualify to exclude your foreign earned income (up to US $80k) if you are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes or if your income is subject to taxation in Thailand as per the DTA. You can also elect not to be subject (up to US $80k) of US withholding taxes by filling form 673 and giving it to your US payer.

I.e: You provide personal services from Thailand as an employee or independent contractor to a US payer. When you file your 1040 to the IRS, you will have to attach form 2555 to exclude all or part of your foreign earned income.

In the example given above, the activities related to your income is in Thailand, your income is deemed to be sourced in Thailand by the tax treaty, therefore you income is subject to taxation by the Thai tax authorities - and also subject to US taxation in the case that your foreign earned income is partly excluded (above US $80k).

[redbicycle]

Set up a corporation in your home country. Send yourself 20k a month from the corporation as a dividend (out of the 5mil in the bank).

Then just stick that money in the bank here.

So that would boost you up to the 40k requirement.

*You'll probably be required to pay tax in your home country based on the 20k you are sending yourself. I'm not sure about in Europe, but in the US you wont really end up paying any tax to $12,000 income a year anyways.

Nice suggestion, but not the best solution for me. My home country has the third highest taxes in the world. Setting up a company over here and paying myself is no option.

How about transfering 20,000 baht from another country(not your own country, stating its your salary) .....i think this may work. of course yuou need a letter stating that you are employ (pt or ft) by this particular company etc ...........

Edited November 5, 2006 by redbicycle

[TAWP]

Someone mentioned 'paying tax on income you don't have' just to get into the books.

If my wife payes tax for an income of say, 40-50K/m, would this really satisfy them if and when I apply for extension?

[kudroz]

Someone mentioned 'paying tax on income you don't have' just to get into the books.

If my wife payes tax for an income of say, 40-50K/m, would this really satisfy them if and when I apply for extension?

yes

[skyblues2k]

Hi My wife and children (Thai Nationals) moved back to Thailand a week ago and i was not aware that the rules have changed. I am joining them in December and thought i was covered under the 400,000 baht rule. I will have a UK income from renting a house of about £650 GBP pcm the house is payed for in full with no mortgage and my brother will manage it for me

My Questions are:

1, Will transferring this money to Thailand be enough to cover my 3 monthly extensions with the immigration police, will i need to pay taxes in Thailand on this income?

2, What documents will i need from the UK as proof (Rental contract for house, Bank Statements and Kasikorn bank letter) will these also need to be certified by a solicitor in the UK or by the Irish Embassy in Bangkok as i am an Irish Citizen?

3, Grateful of any other advice that you can supply as this has thrown everything up in the air

We are moving out to thailand as my wife has not settled in the UK, Ireland or Spain in all of the years that she has been here and wants to return to be near to her family.

Cheers

[manjara]

Hi My wife and children (Thai Nationals) moved back to Thailand a week ago and i was not aware that the rules have changed. I am joining them in December and thought i was covered under the 400,000 baht rule. I will have a UK income from renting a house of about £650 GBP pcm the house is payed for in full with no mortgage and my brother will manage it for me

My Questions are:

1, Will transferring this money to Thailand be enough to cover my 3 monthly extensions with the immigration police, will i need to pay taxes in Thailand on this income?

2, What documents will i need from the UK as proof (Rental contract for house, Bank Statements and Kasikorn bank letter) will these also need to be certified by a solicitor in the UK or by the Irish Embassy in Bangkok as i am an Irish Citizen?

3, Grateful of any other advice that you can supply as this has thrown everything up in the air

We are moving out to thailand as my wife has not settled in the UK, Ireland or Spain in all of the years that she has been here and wants to return to be near to her family.

Cheers

Just a word of warning, the UK government now requires that 'agents' withhold 25% of your rent as tax. If you can show that you are tax resident somewhere else, then you can claim it back (I think), but essentially they will take 25% off you.

As your brother is managing it for you, it may just be cash in hand, but then it could be hard to show it as income.

I haven't really found a good way to do it, so I'm going to sell my house in the UK and buy something in Thailand. Rental incomes seem higher relative to purchase cost over here anyway (in the UK everyone wants to buy, here it's the same, but they can't!)

[kriswillems]

Hi My wife and children (Thai Nationals) moved back to Thailand a week ago and i was not aware that the rules have changed. I am joining them in December and thought i was covered under the 400,000 baht rule. I will have a UK income from renting a house of about £650 GBP pcm the house is payed for in full with no mortgage and my brother will manage it for me

My problem is similar. My wife is Thai. I had a house and an apartment in Belgium. I sold the house and planned to go to live in Thailand. I thought the 400K on a bank account was sufficient. I was not aware of the change in visa rules. Now I beginning to realise that moving to Thailand is no option anymore since the new visa rules but my house is already sold. So, I've to find a way to make the best out of it.

I don't mind paying taxes in Thailand if I have a job there, but I don't want to be kicked out and leave my wife if my income would be temporarly lower during one year.

I decided to travel on multiple entry (non-immigrant type o) visas (until I find a job). Proving the rental income from my apartment will be hard.

[TAWP]

As mentioned, you could always pay more in tax then you should...to reach the income-level.

[skyblues2k]

I was hoping that by having a contract of rent with my tenant, i have already advised the tax office i will be a non resident of the uk. They will pay by direct debit into my bank account in the uk. so have contract and bank statement showing income, then by transferring £650 of it to thailand each month leaving £200 in my uk account this will then give me a paper trail for my extensions and save visa runs every 3 months. Will this work? or is there anything i am missing. Cheers Gary

[Maestro]

...is there anything i am missing

Embassy letter confirming your income.

As far as I know, immigration does not want to see your lease contract and bank statement, just the embassy letter.

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Maestro

[tectronic]

I believe the new regulations are not very fair.

With that negative attitude of yours from the outset, I am reluctant to give you advice as you may comment on any suggestion being made that it is “unfair”.

There is in fact a very simple way for you and your family to live in Thailand legally, with you on annual extensions of stay.

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Maestro

yeah kriswillems, dont you EVER get an opinion on 'anything'! else we gonna shove you -

Edited November 7, 2006 by tectronic

[markuk]

I believe the new regulations stipulate the 40,000 baht are required each month for the Non-Imm-O visa. Since you have 20K coming from rental property in the EU, seems like you are half way there.

Will your wife's shop generate enough money to cover the deficit (in other words 20K per month)? If so, I believe this is sufficient for you to quality for the Non-Imm-O.

Last time I checked 20K + 20K = 40K.

Good luck to you.

The shop generates enough to live. But just like with all small businesses the income of the shop is estimated by a controller of the tax-department that comes to check once per year. If we tell to this person our income is 40K per month, we'll pay tax on that 40K which will give us a disadvantage in competing with the neigbour shops that have much less official income (average only 10K).

Further on I don't how am I am going to prove the income of the rental agreement of the appartment here in Europe? Any suggestion for that?

I can also prove the interest I get on my money on my savings account here in Europe (with 5 million baht on it). But which document would they require?

None of the papers I have (rental agreement or bank statements) is in English (I don't live in UK).

The parents of my wife own an appartment with 67 rooms which could be put partly on my wifes name. How much tax do we need to pay on income from rent in Thailand? Would this income also count to reach the 40K requirement?

quick calculation, 20k income from rent, put 5m baht into high interest account at approx 5%+ will give you 20k per month i think, this should satisfy the need?

[sh-dyrne]

I still have a hard time to understand why Thai government wants to break up families like these, while retired people that have no relation with Thailand at all are allowed just showing 800K.

By my knowledge there are not many countries with this kind of strict and absurd rule for married couples. And there are also not many countries that just allow someone to stay there (of any nationality, with 800K) only because he's older than 50.

I don't understand eather. I'm pretty much in the same situation as you, except that I already live in thailand, and my wife is pregnant in the 8th month(but that doesn't help me with visa anyway since I'm a young father below 50). Now I can't get a 1 year visa ONLY beacause i'm not older than 50! What is reasonable about that?

[lopburi3]

You can not get a one year extension of stay because you do not meet the requirements.

You could travel to either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore or many other places and obtain a one year non immigrant O visa.

[sh-dyrne]

You can not get a one year extension of stay because you do not meet the requirements.

That wasn't my point

You could travel to either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore or many other places and obtain a one year non immigrant O visa.

So I can get a one year non immigrant O visa without showing 40k of income? I only need to take a visa trip over the border every 90 days. Is that correct?

Edited November 9, 2006 by sh-dyrne

[lopburi3]

That is corrent. Currently both Kuala Lumpur and Singapore seem to be the best choice.

[sh-dyrne]

That is corrent. Currently both Kuala Lumpur and Singapore seem to be the best choice.

Ok. thanks. But what is the big change about the new order for married couple(married after 1th oct.) then? Only that the 400k doesn't count any more? And because of that you have to take visa run every 90th days if you aren't 50 or can't show income of 40k?

[lopburi3]

The change is not married after Oct. 1st but application for extension of stay after that date for new applicants. The change is only that a bank account deposit is no longer accepted. It must be income. But it no longer must be the husbands income but can be his, hers, or a combination. The other part is that those with children who are over age 50 (not likely to be an illegal worker) now can live here without the requirement for bank deposit/income that was previously required.