Activist to Sue Over Tiger Temple Zoo Permit

[ddavidovsky]

7 reasons not to visit

http://matadornetwork.com/change/7-reasons-think-twice-visiting-thailands-tiger-temple/

Scurrilous misinformation that the first response on that page easily demolishes.

The place can be regulated and managed easily enough. All it takes is a register of the animals and checks on their conditions, as with any zoo. As I've said, I have no interest in the place myself - I'm not a fan of any zoo - but I'm only being rational. These are domesticated animals and a place like this will be doing no harm.

If you want to do some real good, direct your outrage at the common practice of keeping wild birds in cages - those birds are taken directly from the wild and it has been catastrophic for populations of some species like the red-whiskered bulbul. I can think of a whole list of other environmental issues that merit geniune outrage and remedial action. This tiger menagerie isn't one of them.

[craigt3365]

7 reasons not to visit

http://matadornetwork.com/change/7-reasons-think-twice-visiting-thailands-tiger-temple/

Scurrilous misinformation that the first response on that page easily demolishes.

The place can be regulated and managed easily enough. All it takes is a register of the animals and checks on their conditions, as with any zoo. As I've said, I have no interest in the place myself - I'm not a fan of any zoo - but I'm only being rational. These are domesticated animals and a place like this will be doing no harm.

If you want to do some real good, direct your outrage at the common practice of keeping wild birds in cages - those birds are taken directly from the wild and it has been catastrophic for populations of some species like the red-whiskered bulbul. I can think of a whole list of other environmental issues that merit geniune outrage and remedial action. This tiger menagerie isn't one of them.

Tigers are not domesticated. They can, and do, turn on you in a minute. It's already been proven this place is not properly regulated and does not manage the animals properly. Inbreeding, cross breeding, illegally obtaining animals, selling animal parts, etc. It should be shut down.

You are spot on about birds, but dead wrong about this place. Do some online research and you'll find lots of info.

[ddavidovsky]

7 reasons not to visit

http://matadornetwork.com/change/7-reasons-think-twice-visiting-thailands-tiger-temple/

Scurrilous misinformation that the first response on that page easily demolishes.

The place can be regulated and managed easily enough. All it takes is a register of the animals and checks on their conditions, as with any zoo. As I've said, I have no interest in the place myself - I'm not a fan of any zoo - but I'm only being rational. These are domesticated animals and a place like this will be doing no harm.

If you want to do some real good, direct your outrage at the common practice of keeping wild birds in cages - those birds are taken directly from the wild and it has been catastrophic for populations of some species like the red-whiskered bulbul. I can think of a whole list of other environmental issues that merit geniune outrage and remedial action. This tiger menagerie isn't one of them.

Tigers are not domesticated. They can, and do, turn on you in a minute. It's already been proven this place is not properly regulated and does not manage the animals properly. Inbreeding, cross breeding, illegally obtaining animals, selling animal parts, etc. It should be shut down.

You are spot on about birds, but dead wrong about this place. Do some online research and you'll find lots of info.

The danger to humans is the only issue I agree with - there'll always be the danger of one lashing out and I personally wouldn't go near the place - but (oddly) that's not the reason that everyone has been calling for it to be closed down.

I haven't seen any proofs of the other things you mention. Know of any academic studies? People have an agenda and will believe what they want to believe. Some of the tigers were surely sold off - I guess the temptation was overwhelming - but that's really a failure of the authories to regulate the place. Now they seem to be doing the right thing and good governance should be encouraged.

Sounds like you want to close down every zoo in the world. I might agree, as I once campaigned to stop big cats performing in circuses, but people love animals and it's reasonable to accommodate that instinct and curiosity in a controlled manner, so we might as well be rational about it. Proper regulation is the solution for menageries. The real conservation effort needs to be directed at what is going on in the wild.

[craigt3365]

Have you researched the internet? It's all online and easy to find. And no, I don't want to close down every zoo in the world, which is not the subject of this topic. This one is not a zoo. It's there to make money and is abusing animals. Again, spend 10 minutes to research this on the internet.

[cumgranosalum]

That they got a zoo permit and no one was prosicuted is disgusting and an embarrasment to Thai Buddhism.

As usual money talks here...

Giving the place a zoo licence will do nothing to help the conditions of the animals.. in fact it will gve the temple more confidence to openly display illegal animals and carry on with the illegal animal trade.

How can Buddhist communities allow any temple to keep any animals in cages.. its completely opposite to Buddhist teachings... wich is about setting animals free.

Unfortunately it's human nature to keep captive animals, whether it's pets or zoos, for the sense of delight and wonder. I don't think you'll be conditioning that out of the human species for a few million years.

My understanding - someone correct me if there's solid evidence that I'm wrong - is that these tigers are not taken from the wild, but are essentially domesticated, hence they are so tame.

the stories of how the Temple first came in possession of any tigers are largely apocryphal.

however what is certain is that nearly ever single tiger there now has been bred illegally at the Temple. it would appear they are also using the kind of force4d breeding techniques used in Chinese tiger farms..BTW - None of these tigers are "domesticated" - they are bred in captivity to supply cubs to attract tourists.

there is NO CONSERVATIONAL benefit from breeding these tigers.

therr is a massive difference between a "captive breeding program" and what the temple does which is unregulated breeding in captivity.

[cumgranosalum]

It seems to me that over the past years culminating in the CEE4life and Nat Geo reports that the international community are becoming more and more aware of the shortcomings and possible illegal activities of the temple.

furthermore with incidents such as political events, the Koh Tao murders, deaths by elephants etc etc the nation is getting a reputation for corruption and lack of proper rule of law

In view of this burgeoning perception of how Thailand runs things, one wonders how the world at large will regard this granting of a licence to a temple...as a zoo...with so many court cases and questions marks hanging over the place.

A defence of the world doesn't under stand Thailand would seem to be somewhat insufficient these days.

Edited April 27, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[craigt3365]

It seems to me that over the past years culminating in the CEE4life and Nat Geo reports that the international community are becoming more and more aware of the shortcomings and possible illegal activities of the temple.

furthermore with incidents such as political events, the Koh Tao murders, deaths by elephants etc etc the nation is getting a reputation for corruption and lack of proper rule of law

In view of this burgeoning perception of how Thailand runs things, one wonders how the world at large will regard this granting of a licence to a temple...as a zoo...with so many court cases and questions marks hanging over the place.

A defence of the world doesn't under stand Thailand would seem to be somewhat insufficient these days.

It seems CITES threats against Thailand helped a bit with regards to the ivory trade. The world definitely knows what goes on here. It's all over the news! And it isn't always good...

[ddavidovsky]

That they got a zoo permit and no one was prosicuted is disgusting and an embarrasment to Thai Buddhism.

As usual money talks here...

Giving the place a zoo licence will do nothing to help the conditions of the animals.. in fact it will gve the temple more confidence to openly display illegal animals and carry on with the illegal animal trade.

How can Buddhist communities allow any temple to keep any animals in cages.. its completely opposite to Buddhist teachings... wich is about setting animals free.

Unfortunately it's human nature to keep captive animals, whether it's pets or zoos, for the sense of delight and wonder. I don't think you'll be conditioning that out of the human species for a few million years.

My understanding - someone correct me if there's solid evidence that I'm wrong - is that these tigers are not taken from the wild, but are essentially domesticated, hence they are so tame.

the stories of how the Temple first came in possession of any tigers are largely apocryphal.

however what is certain is that nearly ever single tiger there now has been bred illegally at the Temple. it would appear they are also using the kind of force4d breeding techniques used in Chinese tiger farms..BTW - None of these tigers are "domesticated" - they are bred in captivity to supply cubs to attract tourists.

there is NO CONSERVATIONAL benefit from breeding these tigers.

therr is a massive difference between a "captive breeding program" and what the temple does which is unregulated breeding in captivity.

All the points I have previously made still apply.

'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity.

I don't think anyone is claiming conservational benefit - there's no question of returning big cats bred in zoos to the wild. Point is there is no conservational harm either. I don't believe there is any evidence that this temple has resulted in cats being harvested in the wild.

Well now they exist and have to be kept somewhere - this place looks like tiger heaven, they are so coddled - if the tigers in other zoos knew about it they'd be queuing up to get in.

Also, one might easily imagine the inevitable future scenario where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.

Yes indeed, the problem is that it has been unregulated, in the charming non-nanny-state Thai manner, resulting in some being sold off. You will agree then that regulating and managing the place properly is the best solution. This is a unique place that spreads a lot of delight to a lot of people. Simply moving the tigers elsewhere where they will be off the radar and possibly even more vulnerable, is just not necessary.

[cumgranosalum]

7 reasons not to visit

http://matadornetwork.com/change/7-reasons-think-twice-visiting-thailands-tiger-temple/

Scurrilous misinformation that the first response on that page easily demolishes.

The place can be regulated and managed easily enough. All it takes is a register of the animals and checks on their conditions, as with any zoo. As I've said, I have no interest in the place myself - I'm not a fan of any zoo - but I'm only being rational. These are domesticated animals and a place like this will be doing no harm.

If you want to do some real good, direct your outrage at the common practice of keeping wild birds in cages - those birds are taken directly from the wild and it has been catastrophic for populations of some species like the red-whiskered bulbul. I can think of a whole list of other environmental issues that merit geniune outrage and remedial action. This tiger menagerie isn't one of them.

Tigers are not domesticated. They can, and do, turn on you in a minute. It's already been proven this place is not properly regulated and does not manage the animals properly. Inbreeding, cross breeding, illegally obtaining animals, selling animal parts, etc. It should be shut down.

You are spot on about birds, but dead wrong about this place. Do some online research and you'll find lots of info.

The danger to humans is the only issue I agree with - there'll always be the danger of one lashing out and I personally wouldn't go near the place - but (oddly) that's not the reason that everyone has been calling for it to be closed down.

I haven't seen any proofs of the other things you mention. Know of any academic studies? People have an agenda and will believe what they want to believe. Some of the tigers were surely sold off - I guess the temptation was overwhelming - but that's really a failure of the authories to regulate the place. Now they seem to be doing the right thing and good governance should be encouraged.

Sounds like you want to close down every zoo in the world. I might agree, as I once campaigned to stop big cats performing in circuses, but people love animals and it's reasonable to accommodate that instinct and curiosity in a controlled manner, so we might as well be rational about it. Proper regulation is the solution for menageries. The real conservation effort needs to be directed at what is going on in the wild.

" Know of any academic studies?" - this is the hallmark of someone with no argument.

There is - if you care to do your research plenty of primary evidence about the temple....from those who are experts in conservation animal husbandry and wildlife who have applied this to the temple.

If you want to take part in this discussion may I suggest that you at least familiarise yourself with some of the source4s rather than resort to such a clicheed non-argument

Edited April 27, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[craigt3365]

All the points I have previously made still apply.

'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity.

I don't think anyone is claiming conservational benefit - there's no question of returning big cats bred in zoos to the wild. Point is there is no conservational harm either. I don't believe there is any evidence that this temple has resulted in cats being harvested in the wild.

Well now they exist and have to be kept somewhere - this place looks like tiger heaven, they are so coddled - if the tigers in other zoos knew about it they'd be queuing up to get in.

Also, one might easily imagine the inevitable future scenario where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.

Yes indeed, the problem is that it has been unregulated, in the charming non-nanny-state Thai manner, resulting in some being sold off. You will agree then that regulating and managing the place properly is the best solution. This is a unique place that spreads a lot of delight to a lot of people. Simply moving the tigers elsewhere where they will be off the radar and possibly even more vulnerable, is just not necessary.

You don't seem to like to research this stuff. Tigers can not be domesticated. Never. Just like Elephants. And yes, the temple is claiming to be helping to conserve these animals, when in reality, they are creating massive problems.

Please, research this a bit before posting....

[cumgranosalum]

It seems to me that over the past years culminating in the CEE4life and Nat Geo reports that the international community are becoming more and more aware of the shortcomings and possible illegal activities of the temple.

furthermore with incidents such as political events, the Koh Tao murders, deaths by elephants etc etc the nation is getting a reputation for corruption and lack of proper rule of law

In view of this burgeoning perception of how Thailand runs things, one wonders how the world at large will regard this granting of a licence to a temple...as a zoo...with so many court cases and questions marks hanging over the place.

A defence of the world doesn't under stand Thailand would seem to be somewhat insufficient these days.

It seems CITES threats against Thailand helped a bit with regards to the ivory trade. The world definitely knows what goes on here. It's all over the news! And it isn't always good...

I would be pretty sure that both the breeding program and the "trade" in tigers puts Thailand in breach of their commitment to the CITES organisation.

[cumgranosalum]

That they got a zoo permit and no one was prosicuted is disgusting and an embarrasment to Thai Buddhism.

As usual money talks here...

Giving the place a zoo licence will do nothing to help the conditions of the animals.. in fact it will gve the temple more confidence to openly display illegal animals and carry on with the illegal animal trade.

How can Buddhist communities allow any temple to keep any animals in cages.. its completely opposite to Buddhist teachings... wich is about setting animals free.

Unfortunately it's human nature to keep captive animals, whether it's pets or zoos, for the sense of delight and wonder. I don't think you'll be conditioning that out of the human species for a few million years.

My understanding - someone correct me if there's solid evidence that I'm wrong - is that these tigers are not taken from the wild, but are essentially domesticated, hence they are so tame.

the stories of how the Temple first came in possession of any tigers are largely apocryphal.

however what is certain is that nearly ever single tiger there now has been bred illegally at the Temple. it would appear they are also using the kind of force4d breeding techniques used in Chinese tiger farms..BTW - None of these tigers are "domesticated" - they are bred in captivity to supply cubs to attract tourists.

there is NO CONSERVATIONAL benefit from breeding these tigers.

therr is a massive difference between a "captive breeding program" and what the temple does which is unregulated breeding in captivity.

All the points I have previously made still apply.

'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity.

I don't think anyone is claiming conservational benefit - there's no question of returning big cats bred in zoos to the wild. Point is there is no conservational harm either. I don't believe there is any evidence that this temple has resulted in cats being harvested in the wild.

Well now they exist and have to be kept somewhere - this place looks like tiger heaven, they are so coddled - if the tigers in other zoos knew about it they'd be queuing up to get in.

Also, one might easily imagine the inevitable future scenario where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.

Yes indeed, the problem is that it has been unregulated, in the charming non-nanny-state Thai manner, resulting in some being sold off. You will agree then that regulating and managing the place properly is the best solution. This is a unique place that spreads a lot of delight to a lot of people. Simply moving the tigers elsewhere where they will be off the radar and possibly even more vulnerable, is just not necessary.

"'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity." absolute nonsense!

"Point is there is no conservational harm either." - again nonsense....

"where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.' - this shows you don't have the slightest inkling of most basic concepts of conservation.

You don't seem equipped at all to contribute to this discussion.

Edited April 27, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[Lupatria]

....a zoo or a circus....

....like helping the old lady across the street....when she doesn't want to cross....

...nothing to do with the tigers' well-being.....

How about: another circus run by clowns? This bs won't end as there is still huge demand for tiger meat and bones in Thailand's new brotherland.

[Lupatria]

Broadening their horizons, I see.

Horizon is commonly known here as the line you cannot cross because if you do, you will fall off the world.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Lupatria

[ddavidovsky]

Unfortunately it's human nature to keep captive animals, whether it's pets or zoos, for the sense of delight and wonder. I don't think you'll be conditioning that out of the human species for a few million years.

My understanding - someone correct me if there's solid evidence that I'm wrong - is that these tigers are not taken from the wild, but are essentially domesticated, hence they are so tame.

the stories of how the Temple first came in possession of any tigers are largely apocryphal.

however what is certain is that nearly ever single tiger there now has been bred illegally at the Temple. it would appear they are also using the kind of force4d breeding techniques used in Chinese tiger farms..BTW - None of these tigers are "domesticated" - they are bred in captivity to supply cubs to attract tourists.

there is NO CONSERVATIONAL benefit from breeding these tigers.

therr is a massive difference between a "captive breeding program" and what the temple does which is unregulated breeding in captivity.

All the points I have previously made still apply.

'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity.

I don't think anyone is claiming conservational benefit - there's no question of returning big cats bred in zoos to the wild. Point is there is no conservational harm either. I don't believe there is any evidence that this temple has resulted in cats being harvested in the wild.

Well now they exist and have to be kept somewhere - this place looks like tiger heaven, they are so coddled - if the tigers in other zoos knew about it they'd be queuing up to get in.

Also, one might easily imagine the inevitable future scenario where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.

Yes indeed, the problem is that it has been unregulated, in the charming non-nanny-state Thai manner, resulting in some being sold off. You will agree then that regulating and managing the place properly is the best solution. This is a unique place that spreads a lot of delight to a lot of people. Simply moving the tigers elsewhere where they will be off the radar and possibly even more vulnerable, is just not necessary.

"'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity." absolute nonsense!

"Point is there is no conservational harm either." - again nonsense....

"where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.' - this shows you don't have the slightest inkling of most basic concepts of conservation.

You don't seem equipped at all to contribute to this discussion.

I'm the only one providing a rational discussion - that is, applying reason rather than blind emotion. I've read plenty on the subject and all I see is agenda-driven ranting such as on this thread.

If 'domesticated' is the wrong word, pick a better one that means 'bred in captivity and accustomed to humans' and then come back and address the point, which is that they are not taken from the wild and their existence at the temple in no way puts at risk the security of wild populations.

If you have proof that the tiger temple specifically causes conservational harm, please explain how. Are tigers being taken from the wild in order to stock the temple? In the absense of any academic evidence I conclude that there is no harm.

I don't understand your last point. Are you claiming it is impossible for tigers to become extinct in the wild? I should say it is inevitable at some point in the future as habitat is encroached and viable populations dwindle. They will survive in pockets for some time but poachers will eventually pick them all off. If a few tigers from the temple have been (regrettably) sold to China, that in no will 'fuel the demand'. The demand will always be there and will only increase as the supply gets less.

In any case, I don't see anyone else offering a solution regarding the tiger temple other than dispersing the population to other zoos (to what advantage?). We now have a solution, which is to regulate the place properly.

[cumgranosalum]

the stories of how the Temple first came in possession of any tigers are largely apocryphal.

however what is certain is that nearly ever single tiger there now has been bred illegally at the Temple. it would appear they are also using the kind of force4d breeding techniques used in Chinese tiger farms..BTW - None of these tigers are "domesticated" - they are bred in captivity to supply cubs to attract tourists.

there is NO CONSERVATIONAL benefit from breeding these tigers.

therr is a massive difference between a "captive breeding program" and what the temple does which is unregulated breeding in captivity.

All the points I have previously made still apply.

'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity.

I don't think anyone is claiming conservational benefit - there's no question of returning big cats bred in zoos to the wild. Point is there is no conservational harm either. I don't believe there is any evidence that this temple has resulted in cats being harvested in the wild.

Well now they exist and have to be kept somewhere - this place looks like tiger heaven, they are so coddled - if the tigers in other zoos knew about it they'd be queuing up to get in.

Also, one might easily imagine the inevitable future scenario where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.

Yes indeed, the problem is that it has been unregulated, in the charming non-nanny-state Thai manner, resulting in some being sold off. You will agree then that regulating and managing the place properly is the best solution. This is a unique place that spreads a lot of delight to a lot of people. Simply moving the tigers elsewhere where they will be off the radar and possibly even more vulnerable, is just not necessary.

"'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity." absolute nonsense!

"Point is there is no conservational harm either." - again nonsense....

"where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.' - this shows you don't have the slightest inkling of most basic concepts of conservation.

You don't seem equipped at all to contribute to this discussion.

I'm the only one providing a rational discussion - that is, applying reason rather than blind emotion. I've read plenty on the subject and all I see is agenda-driven ranting such as on this thread.

If 'domesticated' is the wrong word, pick a better one that means 'bred in captivity and accustomed to humans' and then come back and address the point, which is that they are not taken from the wild and their existence at the temple in no way puts at risk the security of wild populations.

If you have proof that the tiger temple specifically causes conservational harm, please explain how. Are tigers being taken from the wild in order to stock the temple? In the absense of any academic evidence I conclude that there is no harm.

I don't understand your last point. Are you claiming it is impossible for tigers to become extinct in the wild? I should say it is inevitable at some point in the future as habitat is encroached and viable populations dwindle. They will survive in pockets for some time but poachers will eventually pick them all off. If a few tigers from the temple have been (regrettably) sold to China, that in no will 'fuel the demand'. The demand will always be there and will only increase as the supply gets less.

In any case, I don't see anyone else offering a solution regarding the tiger temple other than dispersing the population to other zoos (to what advantage?). We now have a solution, which is to regulate the place properly.

"I'm the only one providing a rational discussion" don't kid yourself...almost everything you've posted is an assumption based on a profound ignorance of the topic.

"I don't understand your last point. Are you claiming it is impossible for tigers to become extinct in the wild?" - PLEASE just do a bit of reading on ecology, conservation etc...just about everything you say is so out of touch with reality, it would be impossible to know where to start...i suspect you may just be a troll.

[craigt3365]

They've been trying to regulate this place for many, many years. With no luck. Time to shut it down.

It'd be great if some did some research on this before posting. Some great info out there to read.

[ajarnwills]

That they got a zoo permit and no one was prosicuted is disgusting and an embarrasment to Thai Buddhism.

As usual money talks here...

Giving the place a zoo licence will do nothing to help the conditions of the animals.. in fact it will gve the temple more confidence to openly display illegal animals and carry on with the illegal animal trade.

How can Buddhist communities allow any temple to keep any animals in cages.. its completely opposite to Buddhist teachings... wich is about setting animals free.

Unfortunately it's human nature to keep captive animals, whether it's pets or zoos, for the sense of delight and wonder. I don't think you'll be conditioning that out of the human species for a few million years.

My understanding - someone correct me if there's solid evidence that I'm wrong - is that these tigers are not taken from the wild, but are essentially domesticated, hence they are so tame.

the stories of how the Temple first came in possession of any tigers are largely apocryphal.

however what is certain is that nearly ever single tiger there now has been bred illegally at the Temple. it would appear they are also using the kind of force4d breeding techniques used in Chinese tiger farms..BTW - None of these tigers are "domesticated" - they are bred in captivity to supply cubs to attract tourists.

there is NO CONSERVATIONAL benefit from breeding these tigers.

therr is a massive difference between a "captive breeding program" and what the temple does which is unregulated breeding in captivity.

All the points I have previously made still apply.

'Domesticated' means 'accustomed to humans', and that is because they are bred in captivity.

I don't think anyone is claiming conservational benefit - there's no question of returning big cats bred in zoos to the wild. Point is there is no conservational harm either. I don't believe there is any evidence that this temple has resulted in cats being harvested in the wild.

Well now they exist and have to be kept somewhere - this place looks like tiger heaven, they are so coddled - if the tigers in other zoos knew about it they'd be queuing up to get in.

Also, one might easily imagine the inevitable future scenario where tigers are extinct in the wild - then we will be glad of every captive tiger, including those bred 'illegally'.

Yes indeed, the problem is that it has been unregulated, in the charming non-nanny-state Thai manner, resulting in some being sold off. You will agree then that regulating and managing the place properly is the best solution. This is a unique place that spreads a lot of delight to a lot of people. Simply moving the tigers elsewhere where they will be off the radar and possibly even more vulnerable, is just not necessary.

all I can see are some of the most facile comments on this thread

Edited April 27, 2016 by ajarnwills

[facthailand]

I presume none of the OPs have visited. It's a wonderful scene, not in the least commercial. And the tigers looked content.

I guess we should get rid of everything that defines Thailand. Enjoy those Bangkok malls!

[cumgranosalum]

I presume none of the OPs have visited. It's a wonderful scene, not in the least commercial. And the tigers looked content.

I guess we should get rid of everything that defines Thailand. Enjoy those Bangkok malls!

again another post out of ignorance - what make you think the "OPs" haven't visited?

How do you tell if a tiger is "contented"?

I'm actually aghast at the ignorance and stupidity of some of the posts on this thread....the temple has been in trouble from the day it started (illegally) keeping tigers and other animals - thy have been accused of some very serious crimes and the evidence is convincing and mounting, yet some people still seem totally oblivious to the issues surrounding the temple

Edited April 27, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

I presume none of the OPs have visited. It's a wonderful scene, not in the least commercial. And the tigers looked content.

I guess we should get rid of everything that defines Thailand. Enjoy those Bangkok malls!

said earlier.."A defence of the world doesn't understand Thailand would seem to be somewhat insufficient these days."

[craigt3365]

I presume none of the OPs have visited. It's a wonderful scene, not in the least commercial. And the tigers looked content.

I guess we should get rid of everything that defines Thailand. Enjoy those Bangkok malls!

again another post out of ignorance - what make you think the "OPs" haven't visited?

How do you tell if a tiger is "contented"?

I'm actually aghast at the ignorance and stupidity of some of the posts on this thread....the temple has been in trouble from the day it started (illegally) keeping tigers and other animals - thy have been accused of some very serious crimes and the evidence is convincing and mounting, yet some people still seem totally oblivious to the issues surrounding the temple

Reminds me of those who think dolphins in captivity are happy because of the "smile" on their face! LOL Or, since elephants are so big, they can easily carry people. Which they can't as they actually have weak backs. Or, drugged tigers look content.

What can you do????

[williamgeorgeallen]

well that seems like a logical solution. why would anyone be against that? these tigers are endangered in the wild, any effort to conserve the species must be a step in the right direction. ok so some of them are going to be sold off on the side for god knows what but surely this is a small price to pay. sometimes the do gooders need to think with their heads not with their hearts. when i was a kid i would trap opossums and sell their skins, a nice little earner. then greenies got everyone to stop wearing fur. now possums have bread to the point they eat all the trees leaves and large areas of bush is dying off. to combat this planes are used to drop poison, much of which ends up polluting the ground water.

[craigt3365]

well that seems like a logical solution. why would anyone be against that? these tigers are endangered in the wild, any effort to conserve the species must be a step in the right direction. ok so some of them are going to be sold off on the side for god knows what but surely this is a small price to pay. sometimes the do gooders need to think with their heads not with their hearts. when i was a kid i would trap opossums and sell their skins, a nice little earner. then greenies got everyone to stop wearing fur. now possums have bread to the point they eat all the trees leaves and large areas of bush is dying off. to combat this planes are used to drop poison, much of which ends up polluting the ground water.

You make great points. Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money. Which means, they are hurting conservation elfforts. If you want to conserve these animals, make trading in their parts illegal and close places like this. It's the same story with elephants. They are being taken out of the wild so tourists here can ride them. Definitely not conservation.

Opossums are not endangered species.

[cumgranosalum]

well that seems like a logical solution. why would anyone be against that? these tigers are endangered in the wild, any effort to conserve the species must be a step in the right direction. ok so some of them are going to be sold off on the side for god knows what but surely this is a small price to pay. sometimes the do gooders need to think with their heads not with their hearts. when i was a kid i would trap opossums and sell their skins, a nice little earner. then greenies got everyone to stop wearing fur. now possums have bread to the point they eat all the trees leaves and large areas of bush is dying off. to combat this planes are used to drop poison, much of which ends up polluting the ground water.

You make great points. Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money. Which means, they are hurting conservation elfforts. If you want to conserve these animals, make trading in their parts illegal and close places like this. It's the same story with elephants. They are being taken out of the wild so tourists here can ride them. Definitely not conservation.

Opossums are not endangered species.

"Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money." - Nonsense!

[craigt3365]

well that seems like a logical solution. why would anyone be against that? these tigers are endangered in the wild, any effort to conserve the species must be a step in the right direction. ok so some of them are going to be sold off on the side for god knows what but surely this is a small price to pay. sometimes the do gooders need to think with their heads not with their hearts. when i was a kid i would trap opossums and sell their skins, a nice little earner. then greenies got everyone to stop wearing fur. now possums have bread to the point they eat all the trees leaves and large areas of bush is dying off. to combat this planes are used to drop poison, much of which ends up polluting the ground water.

You make great points. Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money. Which means, they are hurting conservation elfforts. If you want to conserve these animals, make trading in their parts illegal and close places like this. It's the same story with elephants. They are being taken out of the wild so tourists here can ride them. Definitely not conservation.

Opossums are not endangered species.

"Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money." - Nonsense!

People smarter than you and I about this agree. Tigers have been taken from the wild illegally. And many bred there and sold into the black market.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160121-tiger-temple-thailand-trafficking-laos0/

It includes what the group says are veterinary records from 1999 and 2000 indicating that four of the temple’s original tigers were “wild caught” and a 2004 document stating that a female tiger named Nanfa had been “imported from Laos.” A 2005 contract signed by the temple’s abbot and provided to National Geographic details the swap of a male from the temple with a female from a commercial tiger-breeding operation in Laos. An audiotape acquired from an unnamed temple adviser records a conversation between the abbot and Somchai about the three missing tigers.

Cross-border commerce in live tigers—or their skins, bones, or other parts—violates both Thai law and the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), the body that regulates wildlife trade under a treaty signed by 182 nations, including Thailand.

[williamgeorgeallen]

well that seems like a logical solution. why would anyone be against that? these tigers are endangered in the wild, any effort to conserve the species must be a step in the right direction. ok so some of them are going to be sold off on the side for god knows what but surely this is a small price to pay. sometimes the do gooders need to think with their heads not with their hearts. when i was a kid i would trap opossums and sell their skins, a nice little earner. then greenies got everyone to stop wearing fur. now possums have bread to the point they eat all the trees leaves and large areas of bush is dying off. to combat this planes are used to drop poison, much of which ends up polluting the ground water.

You make great points. Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money. Which means, they are hurting conservation elfforts. If you want to conserve these animals, make trading in their parts illegal and close places like this. It's the same story with elephants. They are being taken out of the wild so tourists here can ride them. Definitely not conservation.

Opossums are not endangered species.

the point i was making was not about possums but was about the misguided greenies, now tigers are down to approx 3000 in the wild in thailand and numbers have been falling much like the number of wild elephants due to habitat destruction. the 13 000 tigers in captivity are now the species best chance at survival. like it or not.

Edited April 28, 2016 by williamgeorgeallen

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

This is one crazy F---ing place.

The government has been trying to take the tigers away from this facility because of the allegations of various illegalities going on over a long period of years.

And now some entity in the government, unnamed in the Coconuts story, thinks it's OK to grant a zoo license to these same folks.

And, surprise, surprise, the named party in charge of the business end of the tiger operation seems to be a police colonel, according to the article. How convenient.

[cumgranosalum]

well that seems like a logical solution. why would anyone be against that? these tigers are endangered in the wild, any effort to conserve the species must be a step in the right direction. ok so some of them are going to be sold off on the side for god knows what but surely this is a small price to pay. sometimes the do gooders need to think with their heads not with their hearts. when i was a kid i would trap opossums and sell their skins, a nice little earner. then greenies got everyone to stop wearing fur. now possums have bread to the point they eat all the trees leaves and large areas of bush is dying off. to combat this planes are used to drop poison, much of which ends up polluting the ground water.

You make great points. Sadly, this place obtained tigers illegally. Which meant they were captured in the wild and used to make money. Which means, they are hurting conservation elfforts. If you want to conserve these animals, make trading in their parts illegal and close places like this. It's the same story with elephants. They are being taken out of the wild so tourists here can ride them. Definitely not conservation.

Opossums are not endangered species.

the point i was making was not about possums but was about the misguided greenies, now tigers are down to approx 3000 in the wild in thailand and numbers have been falling much like the number of wild elephants due to habitat destruction. the 13 000 tigers in captivity are now the species best chance at survival. like it or not.

this indicates you don't grasp even the basics on conservation. It isn't just about Tigers - they are the apex predators in a WHOLE ecosystem...this system actually provides humans with resources such as clean air and water - stuff we need......just putting Tigers in a zoo and claiming they aren't extinct is NOTHING to do with the concerns about the survival of tigers in the wild.

i also think you need to find out the difference between a captive breeding program and its purpose and the banal breeding in captivity that goes on at the temple.

You might also research and find out about Tiger subspecies as related to S.E. Asia.

[cumgranosalum]

It seems that now the removal of Tigers has been stopped because of leal action by the temple.

"The government began removing the tigers this year but was ordered to stop after the lawsuit was filed in February. Until the case is resolved, the fate of the tigers is mired in a legal standoff that pits wildlife officials, conservationists and Thailand’s military government against a wealthy tourist enterprise backed by influential Buddhist monks." - NYT - May 2016

Edited May 25, 2016 by cumgranosalum