US begins advanced warplane deployment to bolster NATO allies

[webfact]

US begins advanced warplane deployment to bolster NATO allies



BRUSSELS: -- Two of the world’s most sophisticated warplanes have touched down in Romania as part of the United States’ biggest European deployment of F-22 fighters.

The exercise is aimed at beefing up military support for NATO’s eastern European allies who say they face aggression from Russia after its annexation of Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula.

President Barack Obama’s attempt to bolster NATO’s eastern members such as Poland, the Czech Republic and Romania is termed the European Reassurance Initiative.

The US has deployed 12 F-22s, which are almost impossible to detect on radar. The technology is considered so advanced that the US Congress has banned makers Lockheed Martin from selling them abroad.

Tensions are rising and Russia says the NATO build-up is stoking a dangerous situation.

-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2016-04-27

[Familyaffairs]

NATO is stoking a dangerous situation ? Or could it be the opposing dictatorship ?

[craigt3365]

NATO is stoking a dangerous situation ? Or could it be the opposing dictatorship ?

NATO is trying to protect themselves. Look at what happened in Ukraine and the many incursions by Russian military planes into NATO airspace recently. Plus, the massive Russian military buildup. It's not good, but seems to have been initiated by the Russians.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/25/putins-russia-threatens-poland-hidden-hybrid-war-g/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-threatens-poland-over-dismantling-soviet-monument-111047719.html?ref=gs

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-explores-legal-loopholes-take-back-baltic-nations-354379

And of course you could ask those in Georgia their opinion of Russian aggression....

[helpisgood]

NATO is stoking a dangerous situation ? Or could it be the opposing dictatorship ?

NATO is trying to protect themselves. Look at what happened in Ukraine and the many incursions by Russian military planes into NATO airspace recently. Plus, the massive Russian military buildup. It's not good, but seems to have been initiated by the Russians.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/25/putins-russia-threatens-poland-hidden-hybrid-war-g/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-threatens-poland-over-dismantling-soviet-monument-111047719.html?ref=gs

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-explores-legal-loopholes-take-back-baltic-nations-354379

And of course you could ask those in Georgia their opinion of Russian aggression....

Thanks, Craig!

Always interesting posts and links from you.

The article about a "hybrid war" was interesting esp. in light of Crimea. I think it was Vice News that reported that the border town of Narva, Estonia was largely Russian and sympathized much with Mother Russia. One of your links did state that Latvia and Estonia had large Russian populations. I got some insight into the Russian perspective when I read the following:

"'But the Prosecutor General's office says that the State Council of the USSR, an "unconstitutional organ," recognized the independence of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and therefore that recognition was "defective.'"

I am not so sure how serious they are, but that's got to be disconcerting to the small Baltic nations.

Anyway, thanks for the info!

[craigt3365]

During Russian Occupation, many from the Baltics were deported, or killed. And many from Russia were relocated there from the former USSR. Thus, some very hard feelings, and nervous times, by the ethnic populations there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states#Industrialization_and_immigration

Ethnic Estonians constituted 88 percent before the war, but in 1970 the figure dropped to 60 percent. Ethnic Latvians constituted 75 percent, but the figure dropped 57 percent in 1970 and further down to 50.7 percent in 1989. In contrast, the drop in Lithuania was only 4 percent.^[85] Baltic communists had supported and participated the 1917 October Revolution in Russia. However, many of them died during the Great Purge in the 1930s. The new regimes of 1944 were established mostly by native communists who had fought in the Red Army. However, the Soviets also imported ethnic Russians to fill political, administrative and managerial posts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietization_of_the_Baltic_states

When I was there, I visited several museums dedicated to this. It wasn't a pretty sight. They were treated terribly under Russian (and German) rule. It's understandable they have concerns.

[Baerboxer]

NATO is stoking a dangerous situation ? Or could it be the opposing dictatorship ?

NATO is trying to protect themselves. Look at what happened in Ukraine and the many incursions by Russian military planes into NATO airspace recently. Plus, the massive Russian military buildup. It's not good, but seems to have been initiated by the Russians.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/25/putins-russia-threatens-poland-hidden-hybrid-war-g/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-threatens-poland-over-dismantling-soviet-monument-111047719.html?ref=gs

http://www.newsweek.com/putin-explores-legal-loopholes-take-back-baltic-nations-354379

And of course you could ask those in Georgia their opinion of Russian aggression....

Like all bullies Putin doesn't like it when someone stands up to him.

I've some sympathy for Russia regarding Crimea as Kruschev stole it for his native Ukraine in the 1954. The Crimean Tartars were forcibly removed and relocated by Stalin whose ethnic cleansing actions have created many problems. The current people living in Crimea are the ones who should decide which country they want to be part of.

But for Ukraine, Russia has no right to invade it's territory anymore the Germany had to Sudetenland in the 1930's. It seems like Putin is trying to establish a new Russian Empire and dominate areas that were previously part of the old Imperial Russian Empire or USSR. This includes the Baltic States, Ukraine and parts of other Eastern European countries.

Putin has no right to dictate to another country which organizations they can and cannot join - EU, Nato or anything else. He doesn't want neighbors to prosper as it shows his own regime up and threatens his grip on power. Russian people may want a change and he's not having that!

The US are right to stand up to Putin's intimidation and military adventurism. Time the other NATO members started pulling their weight too.

[than]

Only thing, US want to revive cold war

[Jack Garbo]

During Russian Occupation, many from the Baltics were deported, or killed. And many from Russia were relocated there from the former USSR. Thus, some very hard feelings, and nervous times, by the ethnic populations there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states#Industrialization_and_immigration

Ethnic Estonians constituted 88 percent before the war, but in 1970 the figure dropped to 60 percent. Ethnic Latvians constituted 75 percent, but the figure dropped 57 percent in 1970 and further down to 50.7 percent in 1989. In contrast, the drop in Lithuania was only 4 percent.^[85] Baltic communists had supported and participated the 1917 October Revolution in Russia. However, many of them died during the Great Purge in the 1930s. The new regimes of 1944 were established mostly by native communists who had fought in the Red Army. However, the Soviets also imported ethnic Russians to fill political, administrative and managerial posts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietization_of_the_Baltic_states

When I was there, I visited several museums dedicated to this. It wasn't a pretty sight. They were treated terribly under Russian (and German) rule. It's understandable they have concerns.

Get it right - under Soviet not Russian rule. Or do you still consider Germany as being run by Nazis? try to keep up. H's 2016.

[Jack Garbo]

NATO is stoking a dangerous situation ? Or could it be the opposing dictatorship ?

So they finally found a place for F22s, easily visible to Russian radar, ie, sitting ducks. Could have been worse- F35s.

[Rancid]

Seems the collapse of the Soviet Union somehow missed many people, as they still think the evil commies are out to get them. It's really about the West needing a bogey man to keep the MIC profits rolling.

Two F 22's is nothing but a PR stunt to get a newspaper column, means nothing militarily. Also consider why the plane was discontinued.

Some looneys in the US seem to think they could win a first strike nuclear war, so who wants to find out of they are right? Personally I have kids so guess my answer.

[JingerBen]

It seems like Putin is trying to establish a new Russian Empire and dominate areas that were previously part of the old Imperial Russian Empire or USSR.

it's seems like your "honest and free" media put a huge pile of crap deeply into your head. It's called warmongering.

That's exactly what it is, warmongering.

Some prolific posters on this forum keep it coming constantly.

Wars 'R' US.

[Grouse]

Raptors are Top Dogs right now and would probably defeat Eurofighter Typhoons and totally destroy anything Russia could put up

Nothing wrong with showing some power but I would have based them in former Western Europe to avoid provocation

I'm no armchair General so I expect to get shot down!

[copa8]

Seems the collapse of the Soviet Union somehow missed many people, as they still think the evil commies are out to get them. It's really about the West needing a bogey man to keep the MIC profits rolling.

Two F 22's is nothing but a PR stunt to get a newspaper column, means nothing militarily. Also consider why the plane was discontinued.

Some looneys in the US seem to think they could win a first strike nuclear war, so who wants to find out of they are right? Personally I have kids so guess my answer.

I thought the bogeyman was China, not Russia?

[Johpa]

If you think Thais need to save face, this Lockheed Martin F-22 albatross needed some face saving for the corrupt Lockheed-Martin company that exists only to extract money from the earned income of hard working taxpayers and turn it into the capitol holdings of the 1%. Their follow up turkey of an airplane, the F-35, will lead to the demise of manned aircraft air superiority for the US. You can find numerous articles online where F-16 designer Pierre Sprey describes how stealth technology is a farce when low-frequency radar is being employed, and the Ruskies still employ low-frequency radar.

[craigt3365]

Only thing, US want to revive cold war

If so, then why is US defense spending going down, while Russia's spending is increasing dramatically? If you want to start a war, you don't decrease spending on your military. You do like Russia is doing. Spend more.

http://dailysignal.com/2016/04/11/russia-and-china-increase-defense-spending-while-us-continues-cutting/

US spending down 19%. China and Russia up some 30%. Who's making the problems????

[craigt3365]

During Russian Occupation, many from the Baltics were deported, or killed. And many from Russia were relocated there from the former USSR. Thus, some very hard feelings, and nervous times, by the ethnic populations there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Baltic_states#Industrialization_and_immigration

Ethnic Estonians constituted 88 percent before the war, but in 1970 the figure dropped to 60 percent. Ethnic Latvians constituted 75 percent, but the figure dropped 57 percent in 1970 and further down to 50.7 percent in 1989. In contrast, the drop in Lithuania was only 4 percent.^[85] Baltic communists had supported and participated the 1917 October Revolution in Russia. However, many of them died during the Great Purge in the 1930s. The new regimes of 1944 were established mostly by native communists who had fought in the Red Army. However, the Soviets also imported ethnic Russians to fill political, administrative and managerial posts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovietization_of_the_Baltic_states

When I was there, I visited several museums dedicated to this. It wasn't a pretty sight. They were treated terribly under Russian (and German) rule. It's understandable they have concerns.

Get it right - under Soviet not Russian rule. Or do you still consider Germany as being run by Nazis? try to keep up. H's 2016.

You are aware of Putin's background? Please keep up. He was KGB in the old Soviet Union. So were a lot of his colleagues. Different name, same tactics.

[istinspring]

Only thing, US want to revive cold war

If so, then why is US defense spending going down, while Russia's spending is increasing dramatically? If you want to start a war, you don't decrease spending on your military. You do like Russia is doing. Spend more.

http://dailysignal.com/2016/04/11/russia-and-china-increase-defense-spending-while-us-continues-cutting/

US spending down 19%. China and Russia up some 30%. Who's making the problems????

Russia is #2 or maybe even #1 arms exporter in the world, the programs to renew, modernize and develop started long time ago. Russia military spendings overall are less than UK, on the same level as France or Germany. US military spendings are large than everyone else combined. Guess there is room to cut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Russian_military_reform

From 2008 Russia significantly reduced military size.

and it's not like "Russia increased", military spending returned to the "normal" level (for the country of that size)

In 2014, Russia's military budget of 2.49 trillion rubles (worth approximately US$69.3 billion at 2014 exchange rates) was higher than any other European nation, and approximately 1/7th (14%) of the US military budget.^[1] However, a collapse in the value of the Rouble greatly reduced the dollar-value of the planned 2015 Russian military budget to US$52 billion, despite a 33% increase in its Rouble-value to 3.3 trillion.^[2] Due to the ongoing crisis the planned 33% increase had to be reduced to 25.6%, meaning the 2015 Russian military budget totalled 3.1 trillion rubles. The originally planned 3.36 trillion budget for 2016 has also been reduced to a planned budget of 3.145 trillion rubles, an increase of only 0.8% over 2015.^[3]

And if you look to the configuration of military forces for NATO and Russia you'll see the difference. NATO forces purposed to project force on the far distances (with "global strike" on active development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prompt_Global_Strike ), Russian arms are mainly defensive - Anti-AA, EW, no air carriers.

Moreover there shitload of NATO military bases around Russia, which was created after the fall of the SU and NATO using any chance to deploy more and more. Military buildup right near border causing certain reaction from other side i.e. Russia forced to waste resources to counter it. Combined military potential of NATO forces a way more bigger than Russian one. And who need to be concerned? This kind of moves as in case of Romania barely because US concerned about "security" but to maintain own influence in Eastern Europe and to reach some kind of geopolitical goals. As example: https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/state-world-germanys-strategy

A German-Russian relationship would have the potential to tilt the balance of power in the world. The United States is currently the dominant power, but the combination of German technology and Russian resources — an idea dreamt of by many in the past — would become a challenge on a global basis. Of course, there are bad memories on both sides, and trust in the deepest sense would be hard to come by. But although alliances rely on trust, it does not necessarily have to be deep-seated trust.

Germany's strategy, therefore, is still locked in the EU paradigm. However, if the EU paradigm becomes unsupportable, then other strategies will have to be found. The Russo-German relationship already exists and is deepening. Germany thinks of it in the context of the European Union, but if the European Union weakens, Russia becomes Germany's natural alternative.

I suggest you to read less mass media bullshit, they're all biased and have agenda.

You are aware of Putin's background? Please keep up. He was KGB in the old Soviet Union. So were a lot of his colleagues.

like it could explain everything.

Edited April 28, 2016 by istinspring

[craigt3365]

Denouncing mass media as BS is ridiculous. There are some great mainstream media sites out there. And some terrible non-mainstream media sites.

You are spot on. I wish the US would spend less on defense. But hard to do when others are building up, annexing parts of other countries, building military bases on coral islands, etc. Right? Your graph does show Russia spending more now than in the past. Definitely an increase.

And yes, being part of the former KGB does explain a lot. Sadly....

[Grouse]

Only thing, US want to revive cold war

If so, then why is US defense spending going down, while Russia's spending is increasing dramatically? If you want to start a war, you don't decrease spending on your military. You do like Russia is doing. Spend more.

http://dailysignal.com/2016/04/11/russia-and-china-increase-defense-spending-while-us-continues-cutting/

US spending down 19%. China and Russia up some 30%. Who's making the problems????

Russia is #2 or maybe even #1 arms exporter in the world, the programs to renew, modernize and develop started long time ago. Russia military spendings overall are less than UK, on the same level as France or Germany. US military spendings are large than everyone else combined. Guess there is room to cut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Russian_military_reform

From 2008 Russia significantly reduced military size.

and it's not like "Russia increased", military spending returned to the "normal" level (for the country of that size)

In 2014, Russia's military budget of 2.49 trillion rubles (worth approximately US$69.3 billion at 2014 exchange rates) was higher than any other European nation, and approximately 1/7th (14%) of the US military budget.^[1] However, a collapse in the value of the Rouble greatly reduced the dollar-value of the planned 2015 Russian military budget to US$52 billion, despite a 33% increase in its Rouble-value to 3.3 trillion.^[2] Due to the ongoing crisis the planned 33% increase had to be reduced to 25.6%, meaning the 2015 Russian military budget totalled 3.1 trillion rubles. The originally planned 3.36 trillion budget for 2016 has also been reduced to a planned budget of 3.145 trillion rubles, an increase of only 0.8% over 2015.^[3]

And if you look to the configuration of military forces for NATO and Russia you'll see the difference. NATO forces purposed to project force on the far distances (with "global strike" on active development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prompt_Global_Strike ), Russian arms are mainly defensive - Anti-AA, EW, no air carriers.

Moreover there shitload of NATO military bases around Russia, which was created after the fall of the SU and NATO using any chance to deploy more and more. Military buildup right near border causing certain reaction from other side i.e. Russia forced to waste resources to counter it. Combined military potential of NATO forces a way more bigger than Russian one. And who need to be concerned? This kind of moves as in case of Romania barely because US concerned about "security" but to maintain own influence in Eastern Europe and to reach some kind of geopolitical goals. As example: https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/state-world-germanys-strategy

A German-Russian relationship would have the potential to tilt the balance of power in the world. The United States is currently the dominant power, but the combination of German technology and Russian resources an idea dreamt of by many in the past would become a challenge on a global basis. Of course, there are bad memories on both sides, and trust in the deepest sense would be hard to come by. But although alliances rely on trust, it does not necessarily have to be deep-seated trust.

Germany's strategy, therefore, is still locked in the EU paradigm. However, if the EU paradigm becomes unsupportable, then other strategies will have to be found. The Russo-German relationship already exists and is deepening. Germany thinks of it in the context of the European Union, but if the European Union weakens, Russia becomes Germany's natural alternative.

I suggest you to read less mass media bullshit, they're all biased and have agenda.

You are aware of Putin's background? Please keep up. He was KGB in the old Soviet Union. So were a lot of his colleagues.

like it could explain everything.

Very well put sir!

30% increase of damn all is still damn all

I agree that NATO could have been slightly less threatening while having rapid deployment capability

This is another argument against Brexit. We need to maximise soft power (like sanctions and diplomacy) and keep Germany tied in. The thought of Ribbentrop/Molotov II is very frightening

[istinspring]

Denouncing mass media as BS is ridiculous. There are some great mainstream media sites out there. And some terrible non-mainstream media sites.

You are spot on. I wish the US would spend less on defense. But hard to do when others are building up, annexing parts of other countries, building military bases on coral islands, etc. Right? Your graph does show Russia spending more now than in the past. Definitely an increase.

And yes, being part of the former KGB does explain a lot. Sadly....

lol. Others building up primarily because of US. No one feel safe. I'm really curious what NATO did for past few decades? Playing with puppies? UK annexed Falklands recently. France permanently sit in Africa defending "francophone world". Western world doing same or even worse terrible shit just pretending it's somehow better, under "fair and balanced" media coverage.

30% increase of damn all is still damn all

0.8% in USD, impressive 30% is just another one evidence of "fair and balanced" media kee kwai.

This is another argument against Brexit. We need to maximise soft power (like sanctions and diplomacy) and keep Germany tied in.

couldn't care less about Brexit, your decision. And yea sanctions and gunboat diplomacy.

Hastings Lionel "Pug" Ismay the British soldier told it straight:

On the purpose of NATO: "To keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down."

Edited April 28, 2016 by istinspring

[ThaiKneeTim]

Only thing, US want to revive cold war

For "US" read 'Arms manufacturers', they and their shareholders are the only ones who will benefit.

[ThaiKneeTim]

UK annexed Falklands recently.

1690 is not recently, and the islands were not annexed.

[craigt3365]

UK annexed Falklands recently.

1690 is not recently, and the islands were not annexed.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant! LOL

[istinspring]

Yea, no doubts UK referendum is a good thing and people's will, Crimea referendum annexation is bad and people voted under the guns. Things magically become correct if it fit well the agenda.

"Cameron's UK wanted to restore British Empire", Are you aware of UK's background? Please keep up. There is Queen and Lords.

Edited April 28, 2016 by istinspring