Brexit campaign is told to focus on immigration

[sandyf]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

Maybe you do not remember, or don't want to remember.

"In December 1973, a combination of power cuts and economic gloom meant beleaguered Britain’s finances AND lights were on the blink — with many facing Christmas Day in the cold and dark.

Concerned about hardship during the festive season, Tory Prime Minister Ted Heath warned Brits they should expect a difficult festive season.

In an emergency national broadcast on December 13 he said: “We shall have a harder Christmas than we have known since the war.”"

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2060774/1973-was-real-winter-of-discontent.html

[Thaiwine]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

Maybe you do not remember, or don't want to remember.

"In December 1973, a combination of power cuts and economic gloom meant beleaguered Britain’s finances AND lights were on the blink — with many facing Christmas Day in the cold and dark.

Concerned about hardship during the festive season, Tory Prime Minister Ted Heath warned Brits they should expect a difficult festive season.

In an emergency national broadcast on December 13 he said: “We shall have a harder Christmas than we have known since the war.”"

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2060774/1973-was-real-winter-of-discontent.html

Would this be about one year after Britain joined the EU ?

[sandyf]

Did I mention money? All I said is that there are nearly one million expats living in Spain with access to our health system. By infrastructure I mean roads, beaches etc.The British are the worst type of immigration any country can receive. Don't integrate, don't speak the language and have a self righteous attitude we can really do without. As I said we don't want you in the EU and we don't want you in Spain.

This is one of the big problems, many do not understand the term immigration and Nigel Farage is trying to capitalise on that misunderstanding.

Britons living in Spain do not come under 'immigration', they are EU citizens and have a right to be there.

"Immigration is the movement of people into a destination country which they are not natives of or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle or reside there,"

By the same token EU citizens from the European mainland have the right to be in the UK, that is not immigration and therefore cannot be an immigration problem. By creating confusion over the term Mr Farage is playing on emotions by making out that thousands of undesirable aliens are arriving in the UK daily from the EU.

Leaving the EU is unlikely to alter current immigration policy to any extent or the current arrangements in respect of border control. It would just remove the right of free movement.

Nigel Farage just wants to stop people in general from entering the UK and in doing so thinks he will make a name for himself. Depriving the UK public of the right to live in Europe is just collateral damage, as is the loss of jobs, investment etc.

[sandyf]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

Maybe you do not remember, or don't want to remember.

"In December 1973, a combination of power cuts and economic gloom meant beleaguered Britain’s finances AND lights were on the blink — with many facing Christmas Day in the cold and dark.

Concerned about hardship during the festive season, Tory Prime Minister Ted Heath warned Brits they should expect a difficult festive season.

In an emergency national broadcast on December 13 he said: “We shall have a harder Christmas than we have known since the war.”"

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2060774/1973-was-real-winter-of-discontent.html

Would this be about one year after Britain joined the EU ?

No, it was about 20 years before the EU came into being.

Obviously you are trying to imply that the EC(European Community) brought the UK to its knees in the space of 12 months, nothing whatsover to do with the industrial disputes that ravaged the UK in the early seventies.

[nontabury]

On a serious note now. It makes me laugh all when the British constantly complain about immigrants not integrating..lol. The level of the average Sharon and Darren living in Spain is " una cerveza por favor" and "where is the nearest pub". Their contribution to Spanish society is next to nothing. OK so they have bought a property for less than 80K in the Costa Blanca after watching A place in thes sun, from some British property developer and they think that gives them the right to some sort of self entitlement. My father is a doctor in a Spanish hospital hence my previous comments about 'using' our healthcare system. This self worth of being British living Spain come with beauties like 'You Spanish are a third world country" "in the NHS this wouldnt happen" "I'm British so I should be treated first' etc etc. There might be more Europeans living in Britain than Brits living in Europe..the difference is most Spanish, French, Germans etc living in the UK are working and paying taxes. The majority of Brits living in Spain, France Italy, etc are retired and not paying any taxes. If you vote to get out and believe me, we are with you, get ready for a massive exodus back to cold land as pensions will be frozen and medical expenses will not be taken care off etc and we wont have to put up with the I'm British so I'm better crap..the empire died years a go and you still haven't realized

You obviously have not taken in what I previously wrote. Medical expenses incurred by British citizens in Spain and elsewhere in the EU, are paid for by the British government with British taxpayers money. So no cost to Spain.While medical expenses incurred by Spanish citizens residing in the UK are also being paid for by the British taxpayers. Now if I was a Spaniard I would be very happy with that arrangement.

Re general taxes,do not British citizens residing in Spain, including pensioners

Pay any taxes. VAT, etc. How many Spaniards are directly or indirectly employed by these Brits? surely you would't think of deporting them,and in so doing raise the already very high level of unemployment in that country.

Spain is most certainly a nett beneficiary of Britains daily contribution of 62 million into the EU pit. If we do leave,Britain will be able to use that charity contribution for the welfare of it's own citizens instead of supporting people who's main occupation is siesta.

[nontabury]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

Maybe you do not remember, or don't want to remember.

"In December 1973, a combination of power cuts and economic gloom meant beleaguered Britain’s finances AND lights were on the blink — with many facing Christmas Day in the cold and dark.

Concerned about hardship during the festive season, Tory Prime Minister Ted Heath warned Brits they should expect a difficult festive season.

In an emergency national broadcast on December 13 he said: “We shall have a harder Christmas than we have known since the war.”"

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2060774/1973-was-real-winter-of-discontent.html

Would this be about one year after Britain joined the EU ?

No, it was about 20 years before the EU came into being.

Obviously you are trying to imply that the EC(European Community) brought the UK to its knees in the space of 12 months, nothing whatsover to do with the industrial disputes that ravaged the UK in the early seventies.

The British electorate voted on a referendum in 1975 on whether or not to Remain in the EEC, basically a trading block. They were unfortunately deceived,as without their democratic agreement, the politicians pushed through the Maastricht agreement in 1993 which created the monster that we now know as the EU. Followed in 2007 by the Lisbon agreement,that in itself was rejected ( the UK did not get a say in this,think Blair) by the citizens of France,and the Netherlands. Again the politicians deceived those people.Another country that reject that so called agreement was the Republic of Ireland,they were then forced to have another referendum,were amazingly an extra 500,000 people turned up to vote the agreement through.

[Thaiwine]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

Maybe you do not remember, or don't want to remember.

"In December 1973, a combination of power cuts and economic gloom meant beleaguered Britain’s finances AND lights were on the blink — with many facing Christmas Day in the cold and dark.

Concerned about hardship during the festive season, Tory Prime Minister Ted Heath warned Brits they should expect a difficult festive season.

In an emergency national broadcast on December 13 he said: “We shall have a harder Christmas than we have known since the war.”"

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2060774/1973-was-real-winter-of-discontent.html

Would this be about one year after Britain joined the EU ?

No, it was about 20 years before the EU came into being.

Obviously you are trying to imply that the EC(European Community) brought the UK to its knees in the space of 12 months, nothing whatsover to do with the industrial disputes that ravaged the UK in the early seventies.

You are being picky yes we joined the EEC in 1973 which changed name in 1993 to the EU.

I was mearly pointing out that you were quoting an event that happened after we joined and you were incorrectly saying it happend before we Joined.

[nontabury]

Did I mention money? All I said is that there are nearly one million expats living in Spain with access to our health system. By infrastructure I mean roads, beaches etc.The British are the worst type of immigration any country can receive. Don't integrate, don't speak the language and have a self righteous attitude we can really do without. As I said we don't want you in the EU and we don't want you in Spain.

This is one of the big problems, many do not understand the term immigration and Nigel Farage is trying to capitalise on that misunderstanding.

Britons living in Spain do not come under 'immigration', they are EU citizens and have a right to be there.

"Immigration is the movement of people into a destination country which they are not natives of or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle or reside there,"

By the same token EU citizens from the European mainland have the right to be in the UK, that is not immigration and therefore cannot be an immigration problem. By creating confusion over the term Mr Farage is playing on emotions by making out that thousands of undesirable aliens are arriving in the UK daily from the EU.

Leaving the EU is unlikely to alter current immigration policy to any extent or the current arrangements in respect of border control. It would just remove the right of free movement.

Nigel Farage just wants to stop people in general from entering the UK and in doing so thinks he will make a name for himself. Depriving the UK public of the right to live in Europe is just collateral damage, as is the loss of jobs, investment etc.

What he wants is control of the U.K. Borders by the British parliament. Then those Europeans who have employment awaiting them in the UK,will still be allowed entry into the UK to work,along with people from elsewhere in the world who have jobs awaiting them.

[sandyf]

Would this be about one year after Britain joined the EU ?

No, it was about 20 years before the EU came into being.

Obviously you are trying to imply that the EC(European Community) brought the UK to its knees in the space of 12 months, nothing whatsover to do with the industrial disputes that ravaged the UK in the early seventies.

You are being picky yes we joined the EEC in 1973 which changed name in 1993 to the EU.

I was mearly pointing out that you were quoting an event that happened after we joined and you were incorrectly saying it happend before we Joined.

Maybe you can point out where I said it happened before we joined.

[sandyf]

It was really great in Great Britain in the lead up to Jan 1st 1973.

1966

On 20th July, 1966, the Prime Minister decided, for no economic reason as far as I can tell, to impose a £50 limit on the travel allowance for British citizens abroad. That £50 was computed thus. The total number of British citizens travelling outside the sterling area was divided into the aggregation of expenditure and it was decided that the average expenditure per person was a trifle less than £50. The Chancellor therefore decided on a £50 limit.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1967/jun/19/overseas-travel-allowance

1967

Wilson defends 'pound in your pocket'

The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, has defended his decision to devalue the pound saying it will tackle the "root cause" of Britain's economic problems.

The government announced last night it was lowering the exchange rate so the pound is now worth $2.40, down from $2.80, a cut of just over 14%.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208000/3208396.stm

1968

The Black Dwarf was launched in June 1968 under Tariq Ali's editorship, with several other IMG members on its editorial board. Its creative and pluralist nature attracted a number of new activists to the group: John Lennon was friendly to the organisation.

While IMG members largely remained in the Labour party, including Charlie van Gelderen, International marked a break from 'deep entrism'. Its first issue claimed that "The Week was brought out in the expectation that a mass left would arise in the Labour party once labour was in power. [its] main function was that of an organiser and co-ordinator [...] but this will be a by-product of the main function of International: the creation of a firm marxist core in the labour movement." Its campaigning was focussed on broader initiatives such as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign and Russell Tribunal, in which Ernie Tate was prominent and in which the RSL and Socialist Labour League did not work, the Institute for Workers' Control and the Revolutionary Socialist Students Front, in which Peter Gowan and

Murray Smith were active. The agitational work of The Week was carried on in the The Black Dwarf and in Socialist Woman, launched in 1969. The Group gained some public prominence when Tariq Ali, who had joined in April 1968, was widely publicised in the media as a leader of protests against the Vietnam War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Group

1969

Troubles in Ireland escalate

During the riots, on 13 August, Taoiseach Jack Lynch made a television address. He condemned the RUC and said that the Irish Government "can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse". He called for a United Nations peacekeeping force to be deployed and said that Irish Army field hospitals were being set up at the border in County Donegal near Derry. Lynch added that Irish re-unification would be the only permanent solution. Some interpreted the speech as a threat of military intervention.[78] After the riots, Lynch ordered the Irish Army to plan for a possible humanitarian intervention in Northern Ireland. The plan, Exercise Armageddon, was rejected and remained classified for thirty years.

On 14–15 August, British troops were deployed in Derry and Belfast to restore order,[80] but did not try to enter the Bogside, bringing a temporary end to the riots. Eight people had been shot dead, more than 750 had been injured (including 133 who suffered gunshot wounds) and more than 400 homes and businesses had been destroyed (83%

Catholic-owned).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

1970

The docks strike of 1970 was a major industrial action by dockers in the United Kingdom that raised fears of food shortages and led to a proclamation of a state of emergency by Queen Elizabeth II.

Dockers struck for a pay rise of £11 per week (£109 at 2003 prices) on 15 July 1970 and around 47,000 dockers were involved nationally. The strike seriously cut imports and exports and cost the British economy between £50 and £100 million (£495 and 990 million at 2003 prices). The British Army were stood by to protect food supplies but most

dockers agreed to handle perishable goods and the strike was largely peaceful. The dockers lost £4 million (£40 million at 2003 prices) in wages.

A court of inquiry was convened under Lord Pearson and proposed an average 7% increase in pay. Though this was at first rejected by the dockers, it was ultimately accepted on 30 July.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docks_strike_of_1970

19 May – The government made a £20 million loan available to help save the financially troubled luxury car and aircraft engine manufacturer Rolls Royce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_in_the_United_Kingdom

1971

The 1971 United Kingdom postal workers strike was a strike in the United Kingdom staged by postal workers between January and March 1971.

The strike was Britain's first national postal strike and began after postal workers demanded a pay rise of 15-20% then walked out after Post Office managers made a lower offer. The strike began on 20 January and lasted for seven weeks, finally ending with an agreement on Thursday 4 March. After voting over the weekend, the strikers returned

to work on Monday 8 March 1971. The strike overlapped with the introduction of decimal currency in the U.K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_United_Kingdom_postal_workers_strike

4 February – Rolls-Royce went bankrupt and was nationalised.

1 March – An estimated 120,000 to 250,000 "kill the bill" protesters went on strike against the 1971 Industrial Relations Act in London.

19 April – Unemployment reached a post-Second World War high of nearly 815,000.

24 June – The EEC agreed terms for Britain's proposed membership and it was hoped that the nation will join the EEC next year.

28 October: The House of Commons voted in favour of joining the EEC by a vote of 356-244.

Undated:Inflation stood at a 30-year high of 8.6%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_in_the_United_Kingdom

1972

9 January – The National Union of Mineworkers held a strike ballot in which 58.8% voted in favour. Coal miners begin a strike which lasts for seven weeks, including picketing of Saltley coke depot in Birmingham.

20 January – Unemployment exceeded 1,000,000 for the first time since the 1930s-almost double the 582,000 who were unemployed when Edward Heath's Conservative government came to power less than two years ago.

9 February – A State of emergency was declared as a result of the miners' strike.

23 June – The Chancellor of the Exchequer Anthony Barber announced a decision to float the Pound.

28 July – A strike by thousands of dockers led to the government announcing a state of emergency on 4 August.

6 November – The government introduced price and pay freezes to counter inflation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_in_the_United_Kingdom

Edited May 1, 2016 by sandyf

[Thaiwine]

To sandyf

I don't know where my last post went, maybe to many quotes,

Yes you are right you did not "say" it happened

I should have used the word "implied"

Like I said "picky"

As regards you post #40, joining the EEC solved all our problems, lol

[Johnyo]

On a serious note now. It makes me laugh all when the British constantly complain about immigrants not integrating..lol. The level of the average Sharon and Darren living in Spain is " una cerveza por favor" and "where is the nearest pub". Their contribution to Spanish society is next to nothing. OK so they have bought a property for less than 80K in the Costa Blanca after watching A place in thes sun, from some British property developer and they think that gives them the right to some sort of self entitlement. My father is a doctor in a Spanish hospital hence my previous comments about 'using' our healthcare system. This self worth of being British living Spain come with beauties like 'You Spanish are a third world country" "in the NHS this wouldnt happen" "I'm British so I should be treated first' etc etc. There might be more Europeans living in Britain than Brits living in Europe..the difference is most Spanish, French, Germans etc living in the UK are working and paying taxes. The majority of Brits living in Spain, France Italy, etc are retired and not paying any taxes. If you vote to get out and believe me, we are with you, get ready for a massive exodus back to cold land as pensions will be frozen and medical expenses will not be taken care off etc and we wont have to put up with the I'm British so I'm better crap..the empire died years a go and you still haven't realized

You obviously have not taken in what I previously wrote. Medical expenses incurred by British citizens in Spain and elsewhere in the EU, are paid for by the British government with British taxpayers money. So no cost to Spain.While medical expenses incurred by Spanish citizens residing in the UK are also being paid for by the British taxpayers. Now if I was a Spaniard I would be very happy with that arrangement.

Re general taxes,do not British citizens residing in Spain, including pensioners

Pay any taxes. VAT, etc. How many Spaniards are directly or indirectly employed by these Brits? surely you would't think of deporting them,and in so doing raise the already very high level of unemployment in that country.

Spain is most certainly a nett beneficiary of Britains daily contribution of 62 million into the EU pit. If we do leave,Britain will be able to use that charity contribution for the welfare of it's own citizens instead of supporting people who's main occupation is siesta.

Again, its not about money. Not even sure why we are discussing this as in the end we both want the same. You want to leave the EU and we want you to leave the EU. Lets hope for the same outcome in June.

[dick dasterdly]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

The UK, strong and prosperous back in the late 60s and early 70s I don't know what planet you were living on in that era but it certainly wasn't planet earth.

I remember a nation that was brought to its knees almost every day by a strike in this industry or that industry. I remember industrial relations dominated by extreme left wing agitators. I remember Britain's universities being hotbeds of extreme left wing politics. I remember a nation in terminal industrial decline due to the disinclination of inept British management to invest in staff training, modern machinery and seemingly left rudderless in the new new age of industrial relations dominated by the powerful unions. I remember an era when unemployment passed the 1 million mark for the first time since the depression in the 30s. I remember daily announcements of hundreds, sometimes thousands of redundancies by Britain's great enterprises: British Steel, ICI, GEC, The Port of London Authority. I remember Britain's, once great, car industry staggering from one crisis to the next, from one all out strike to the next. I remember London buried under its own refuse with Leicester Square boasting a pile of it 50 feet high because the bin men had gone on strike.

What was "great and prosperous" about that?

There's just a couple of minor details that Brexit enthusiasts seem to have forgotten one of which is that most of our trade agreements with other countries are implemented through EU agreements. If we leave the EU, all those agreements disappear; Obama has rightly pointed out that we are not important enough in world trade to command much attention from the giants like the US and China. As he said, you go to the back of the queue.

The one we can't do without is an agreement with the EU. Over 50% of our trade is with them and they can, and quite likely will, play hardball with the UK if we leave. We will have cost them a huge amount of money, why should they go easy on us. One of the things the will most likely insist on is our continued compliance with the free movement of labour provisions. Do you Brexiters see the danger here: we vote to leave, we end up having to all the EU immigrants as before but now we don't even get a say in the decision making process. We just get told what we may and may not do! How is that an advantage?

Mostly true, but what you neglect to mention is that average salaries kept rising - until the mid 80s (?), when they started stagnating in real terms - and eventually falling.

I'm still shocked at the way industry in collusion with the govt managed to lower salaries and get rid of good company pensions so easily.

[Grouse]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

The UK, strong and prosperous back in the late 60s and early 70s I don't know what planet you were living on in that era but it certainly wasn't planet earth.

I remember a nation that was brought to its knees almost every day by a strike in this industry or that industry. I remember industrial relations dominated by extreme left wing agitators. I remember Britain's universities being hotbeds of extreme left wing politics. I remember a nation in terminal industrial decline due to the disinclination of inept British management to invest in staff training, modern machinery and seemingly left rudderless in the new new age of industrial relations dominated by the powerful unions. I remember an era when unemployment passed the 1 million mark for the first time since the depression in the 30s. I remember daily announcements of hundreds, sometimes thousands of redundancies by Britain's great enterprises: British Steel, ICI, GEC, The Port of London Authority. I remember Britain's, once great, car industry staggering from one crisis to the next, from one all out strike to the next. I remember London buried under its own refuse with Leicester Square boasting a pile of it 50 feet high because the bin men had gone on strike.

What was "great and prosperous" about that?

There's just a couple of minor details that Brexit enthusiasts seem to have forgotten one of which is that most of our trade agreements with other countries are implemented through EU agreements. If we leave the EU, all those agreements disappear; Obama has rightly pointed out that we are not important enough in world trade to command much attention from the giants like the US and China. As he said, you go to the back of the queue.

The one we can't do without is an agreement with the EU. Over 50% of our trade is with them and they can, and quite likely will, play hardball with the UK if we leave. We will have cost them a huge amount of money, why should they go easy on us. One of the things the will most likely insist on is our continued compliance with the free movement of labour provisions. Do you Brexiters see the danger here: we vote to leave, we end up having to all the EU immigrants as before but now we don't even get a say in the decision making process. We just get told what we may and may not do! How is that an advantage?

Mostly true, but what you neglect to mention is that average salaries kept rising - until the mid 80s (?), when they started stagnating in real terms - and eventually falling.

I'm still shocked at the way industry in collusion with the govt managed to lower salaries and get rid of good company pensions so easily.

Inflation in double digits. Real increases?

[Grouse]

Let's have a reality check here

The Brexiteers have comprehensively lost the trade/ economic argument

They should concentrate on real issues now such as free movement of labour and also the soveignty issue

For me, the issue of sovereignty is that these days we need to part pool sovereignty whether to NATO or to EU

For free movement of labour, we are already outside Schengen and Turkey is a non issue

I think these issues are debatable whereas the economic benefits are obvious to all but the poorly informed

Edited May 1, 2016 by Grouse

[Thaiwine]

Personally I favor free movement anywhere in the world, you should be able to live and work where ever you wish to,

But like I mentioned before, only if you can pay your way if not you have to go back to your own country,

Benefits packages should only be available to nationals of their own countries.

[Johnyo]

Personally I favor free movement anywhere in the world, you should be able to live and work where ever you wish to,

But like I mentioned before, only if you can pay your way if not you have to go back to your own country,

Benefits packages should only be available to nationals of their own countries.

So if a French, Italian or whatever arrives in the UK and works for 30 years and then gets laid off he then has no rights and gets no benefits but a dosser from shittyton who has never had a job just because he was born on the UK should get benefits for life?

[F430murci]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

I think some administrations and leaders such as Obama like the concept of poverty for the masses. It brings equality and I cannot help but to think that both Obama and his wife gave a deep seeded resentment against Caucasians, Eupropeans and would throw the baby out with the bath water (bankrupt the system) to see minirities on level footing with those he perceives as having a historical unfair advantage.

To others, poverty, hardship and balance of social, economic standing leads to greater dependence on the government or more power and wealth for those at the top. Worked well for Putin and for leaders in other countries operating in this fashion.

[Thaiwine]

Personally I favor free movement anywhere in the world, you should be able to live and work where ever you wish to,

But like I mentioned before, only if you can pay your way if not you have to go back to your own country,

Benefits packages should only be available to nationals of their own countries.

So if a French, Italian or whatever arrives in the UK and works for 30 years and then gets laid off he then has no rights and gets no benefits but a dosser from shittyton who has never had a job just because he was born on the UK should get benefits for life?

I think if someone lived and worked in a country for a long time they should be able to apply for citizenship, if they did not wish to do that then no no benefits for them.

[nontabury]

Let's have a reality check here

The Brexiteers have comprehensively lost the trade/ economic argument

They should concentrate on real issues now such as free movement of labour and also the soveignty issue

For me, the issue of sovereignty is that these days we need to part pool sovereignty whether to NATO or to EU

For free movement of labour, we are already outside Schengen and Turkey is a non issue

I think these issues are debatable whereas the economic benefits are obvious to all but the poorly informed

Only in your dreams. Unfortunately you failed to proven your argument.

Although to be fair, you did show how arrogant you are.

[KC 71]

A bit late now

The horse has already bolted!

[Linzz]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

The UK, strong and prosperous back in the late 60s and early 70s I don't know what planet you were living on in that era but it certainly wasn't planet earth.

I remember a nation that was brought to its knees almost every day by a strike in this industry or that industry. I remember industrial relations dominated by extreme left wing agitators. I remember Britain's universities being hotbeds of extreme left wing politics. I remember a nation in terminal industrial decline due to the disinclination of inept British management to invest in staff training, modern machinery and seemingly left rudderless in the new new age of industrial relations dominated by the powerful unions. I remember an era when unemployment passed the 1 million mark for the first time since the depression in the 30s. I remember daily announcements of hundreds, sometimes thousands of redundancies by Britain's great enterprises: British Steel, ICI, GEC, The Port of London Authority. I remember Britain's, once great, car industry staggering from one crisis to the next, from one all out strike to the next. I remember London buried under its own refuse with Leicester Square boasting a pile of it 50 feet high because the bin men had gone on strike.

What was "great and prosperous" about that?

There's just a couple of minor details that Brexit enthusiasts seem to have forgotten one of which is that most of our trade agreements with other countries are implemented through EU agreements. If we leave the EU, all those agreements disappear; Obama has rightly pointed out that we are not important enough in world trade to command much attention from the giants like the US and China. As he said, you go to the back of the queue.

The one we can't do without is an agreement with the EU. Over 50% of our trade is with them and they can, and quite likely will, play hardball with the UK if we leave. We will have cost them a huge amount of money, why should they go easy on us. One of the things the will most likely insist on is our continued compliance with the free movement of labour provisions. Do you Brexiters see the danger here: we vote to leave, we end up having to all the EU immigrants as before but now we don't even get a say in the decision making process. We just get told what we may and may not do! How is that an advantage?

Yes, well said. We used to be called the sick man of Europe. Sadly, many contributors don't know the history

I read your post and immediately thought no that was Turkey about the time of the Crimean war wasn't it? So I googled it and I was right. Obviously nothing special in you saying the UK used to be called the sick man of Europe.Sadly looks like it's you who doesn't know the history actually.

The label of "sick man of Europe" is given to a European country experiencing a time of economic difficulty or impoverishment. The term was first used in the mid-19th century to describe the Ottoman Empire, but has since been applied at one time or another to nearly every other major country in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe

[mercman24]

POST 20 HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET, "SPANISH GERIATRICS" these people have paid into the british economy for 50 years via taxes,,and now the government are seeking to make people, like this, pay for hospital treatment, they were happy to tax me for 50 years. and others who have not paid one single penny into our economy get free national health, so those who have paid for 50 years are subsidising those who have paid jack shit,so what have you contributed please tell us all, i live in thailand and STILL pay british taxes at the age of 69, so i am still contributing

Edited May 2, 2016 by mercman24

[sandyf]

UK: A Sunday Times economic outlook article on Brexit states "there's no pot of...

UK: A Sunday Times economic outlook article on Brexit states "there's no pot ofgold at the end of Brexit rainbow." The article basically focusses on, in theiropinion, flawed accounting estimate that overstates the cost to UK marketsstaying in the union at "E350M a week." The flipside to the argument is leavingthe EU has it's own costs that mitigated by the exit, but exacerbated. AngelGurria, Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) secretary general said "thebest outcome under Brexit is still worse than remaining an EU member, while theworst outcomes are very bad indeed." Saturday Financial Times article focusseson what increased market "turbulence" into the June 23 referendum. According tothe FT "uncertainty in the early hours of Friday morning" June 24, "will beexacerbated by the decision of broadcasters not to commission exit polls, whichin most elections are broadcast when voting concludes at 10pm."

Source: Market News International (MNI) – A Deutsche Börse company

2. May 2016 01:01:35

[Orac]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

The UK, strong and prosperous back in the late 60s and early 70s I don't know what planet you were living on in that era but it certainly wasn't planet earth.

I remember a nation that was brought to its knees almost every day by a strike in this industry or that industry. I remember industrial relations dominated by extreme left wing agitators. I remember Britain's universities being hotbeds of extreme left wing politics. I remember a nation in terminal industrial decline due to the disinclination of inept British management to invest in staff training, modern machinery and seemingly left rudderless in the new new age of industrial relations dominated by the powerful unions. I remember an era when unemployment passed the 1 million mark for the first time since the depression in the 30s. I remember daily announcements of hundreds, sometimes thousands of redundancies by Britain's great enterprises: British Steel, ICI, GEC, The Port of London Authority. I remember Britain's, once great, car industry staggering from one crisis to the next, from one all out strike to the next. I remember London buried under its own refuse with Leicester Square boasting a pile of it 50 feet high because the bin men had gone on strike.

What was "great and prosperous" about that?

There's just a couple of minor details that Brexit enthusiasts seem to have forgotten one of which is that most of our trade agreements with other countries are implemented through EU agreements. If we leave the EU, all those agreements disappear; Obama has rightly pointed out that we are not important enough in world trade to command much attention from the giants like the US and China. As he said, you go to the back of the queue.

The one we can't do without is an agreement with the EU. Over 50% of our trade is with them and they can, and quite likely will, play hardball with the UK if we leave. We will have cost them a huge amount of money, why should they go easy on us. One of the things the will most likely insist on is our continued compliance with the free movement of labour provisions. Do you Brexiters see the danger here: we vote to leave, we end up having to all the EU immigrants as before but now we don't even get a say in the decision making process. We just get told what we may and may not do! How is that an advantage?

Yes, well said. We used to be called the sick man of Europe. Sadly, many contributors don't know the history

I read your post and immediately thought no that was Turkey about the time of the Crimean war wasn't it? So I googled it and I was right. Obviously nothing special in you saying the UK used to be called the sick man of Europe.Sadly looks like it's you who doesn't know the history actually.

The label of "sick man of Europe" is given to a European country experiencing a time of economic difficulty or impoverishment. The term was first used in the mid-19th century to describe the Ottoman Empire, but has since been applied at one time or another to nearly every other major country in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe

Did you actually read what was in the link you gave or just the first bit. The comments made were specifically about the period when Britain joined the EU/EC not some golden age of empire.

"Throughout the 1970s, the United Kingdom was sometimes called the "sick man of Europe" by critics of its government at home, because of industrial strife and poor economic performance compared to other European countries,[10] culminating with the Winter of Discontent of 1978–9."

[Grouse]

Let's have a reality check here

The Brexiteers have comprehensively lost the trade/ economic argument

They should concentrate on real issues now such as free movement of labour and also the soveignty issue

For me, the issue of sovereignty is that these days we need to part pool sovereignty whether to NATO or to EU

For free movement of labour, we are already outside Schengen and Turkey is a non issue

I think these issues are debatable whereas the economic benefits are obvious to all but the poorly informed

Only in your dreams. Unfortunately you failed to proven your argument.

Although to be fair, you did show how arrogant you are.

In the same way that climate change is unproven? All top economists (except 8) agree. So therefore unproven?

As for my arrogance, I take that as a compliment.

When ones interlocutor is reduced to ad hominem attack their case is surly lost ?

[stag4]

Angel Gurria, another privileged fat cat with his nose in the trough

Headline from a Bloomberg article March 29

"OECD's Gurria to Actively Campaign Against U.K. Leaving the EU"

Your article is hardly unbiased and is part of the Remain fear campaign

[Johnyo]

POST 20 HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET, "SPANISH GERIATRICS" these people have paid into the british economy for 50 years via taxes,,and now the government are seeking to make people, like this, pay for hospital treatment, they were happy to tax me for 50 years. and others who have not paid one single penny into our economy get free national health, so those who have paid for 50 years are subsidising those who have paid jack shit,so what have you contributed please tell us all, i live in thailand and STILL pay british taxes at the age of 69, so i am still contributing

I have never paid taxes in the UK and have never claimed anything from the UK so I don't get your point. The Spanish people don't want 1 million British geriatrics using our infrastructures when they haven't paid a cent in Spanish taxes or do you think the beaches they use and the roads they drive in cleaned and built for free. So we are with the leave group and if brits want to live Spain then they will need to show financial security and this way not every Sharon , Tracy or Bob with a few grand can live in our country. Kind of the same as the leave group want for foreigners living in the UK. I quite like the Thai style demands but I would up the ante. 40K seasoned all year round in case of emergency and comprehensive health insurance should be the minimum requirement otherwise back to the cold.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Johnyo

[paulbj2]

You'll get poverty with the EU due to immigration overwhelming the system.

The UK was strong and prosperous before it entered the EU. Few of the promises have come true while some current and potential future repercussions weren't expected by the people.

If you don't have borders and national security and sovereignty you can't manage a country and provide for your own people.

The UK will continue to get weaker in the EU just as it has already. The UK's debt is skyrocketing because it's overwhelmed.

Get out and take your country back. Build The Wall. You can trade with the USA while the rest of the EU sucks air and crashes. How do people get sucked into believing that something which hasn't worked thus far will work into the future?

The UK, strong and prosperous back in the late 60s and early 70s I don't know what planet you were living on in that era but it certainly wasn't planet earth.

I remember a nation that was brought to its knees almost every day by a strike in this industry or that industry. I remember industrial relations dominated by extreme left wing agitators. I remember Britain's universities being hotbeds of extreme left wing politics. I remember a nation in terminal industrial decline due to the disinclination of inept British management to invest in staff training, modern machinery and seemingly left rudderless in the new new age of industrial relations dominated by the powerful unions. I remember an era when unemployment passed the 1 million mark for the first time since the depression in the 30s. I remember daily announcements of hundreds, sometimes thousands of redundancies by Britain's great enterprises: British Steel, ICI, GEC, The Port of London Authority. I remember Britain's, once great, car industry staggering from one crisis to the next, from one all out strike to the next. I remember London buried under its own refuse with Leicester Square boasting a pile of it 50 feet high because the bin men had gone on strike.

What was "great and prosperous" about that?

There's just a couple of minor details that Brexit enthusiasts seem to have forgotten one of which is that most of our trade agreements with other countries are implemented through EU agreements. If we leave the EU, all those agreements disappear; Obama has rightly pointed out that we are not important enough in world trade to command much attention from the giants like the US and China. As he said, you go to the back of the queue.

The one we can't do without is an agreement with the EU. Over 50% of our trade is with them and they can, and quite likely will, play hardball with the UK if we leave. We will have cost them a huge amount of money, why should they go easy on us. One of the things the will most likely insist on is our continued compliance with the free movement of labour provisions. Do you Brexiters see the danger here: we vote to leave, we end up having to all the EU immigrants as before but now we don't even get a say in the decision making process. We just get told what we may and may not do! How is that an advantage?

Mostly true, but what you neglect to mention is that average salaries kept rising - until the mid 80s (?), when they started stagnating in real terms - and eventually falling.

I'm still shocked at the way industry in collusion with the govt managed to lower salaries and get rid of good company pensions so easily.

"Mostly"? With which statement are you disagreeing?

[dick dasterdly]

UK: A Sunday Times economic outlook article on Brexit states "there's no pot of...

UK: A Sunday Times economic outlook article on Brexit states "there's no pot ofgold at the end of Brexit rainbow." The article basically focusses on, in theiropinion, flawed accounting estimate that overstates the cost to UK marketsstaying in the union at "E350M a week." The flipside to the argument is leavingthe EU has it's own costs that mitigated by the exit, but exacerbated. AngelGurria, Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) secretary general said "thebest outcome under Brexit is still worse than remaining an EU member, while theworst outcomes are very bad indeed." Saturday Financial Times article focusseson what increased market "turbulence" into the June 23 referendum. According tothe FT "uncertainty in the early hours of Friday morning" June 24, "will beexacerbated by the decision of broadcasters not to commission exit polls, whichin most elections are broadcast when voting concludes at 10pm."

Source: Market News International (MNI) – A Deutsche Börse company

2. May 2016 01:01:35

Not sure whether its a Sunday Times article or an MNI - Deutsche Borse company that said this?

Not that it matters as either way its another company with a vested interest - to be added to the rest of the 'establishment' that are pretty unanimous in stating Brexit is a bad idea.

It boils down to whether you trust these sources, or think that they have a good, personal and financial reason for maintaining the status quo. Good for them, but not necessarily good for ordinary people.