Thai/falang Kids Learning 3rd Language

[Heng]

For some reason the end of my OP was truncated. It was:

Please don't flame me as being too much of a demanding daddy etc. It's simply a question of

1. Would it be a good idea to teach a 3rd language?

2. Would Mandarin be most ideal?

3. If not Mandarin, which one and why?

4. If Mandarin, writing too?

Ok, 4 questions then............

Thanks,

Will let you guys argue points 1-3, but as to point 4.... "If Mandarin, writing too?".... yes, learning to write Chinese characters should be encouraged. One may argue whether your child will ever be immersed in the Chinese business world, which from Houston to Paris to Buenos Aires to Kinshasa does span the globe.... but Mandarin/Hokkien/Teochiu/Cantonese/Hainanese speakers, etc. who don't understand each other -and yes this happens ALL the time worldwide everyday and these parties don't suddenly just revert to speaking English when that happens- can simply write what they mean/need to purchase/want to import-export etc. on a piece of paper and the other Chinese party will understand, even if they don't pronounce it the same way.

It's kind of like learning Arabic numerals. It has a 'universal' application.

Edited November 6, 2006 by Heng

[LaoPo]

In my study of linguistics I learned that the idea that an additional language or two will confuse a child and cause harm were erroneous.

If you have any evidence to the contrary please share it with us.

LaoPo, I stated that I have seen no evidence that the study of additional languages at a young age confused children.

Not sure what that has to do with the size of Thailand, the number of Thai speakers in the world, or in what country I studied linguistics??

1. QT, I'm sorry, I misread the underlined sentence and therefore I misunderstood

2. About the size of a country/No of (Thai) speakers in the world/ or country you studied.....

Just curious....that's all

LaoPo

[sbk]

Will let you guys argue points 1-3, but as to point 4.... "If Mandarin, writing too?".... yes, learning to write Chinese characters should be encouraged. One may argue whether your child will ever be immersed in the Chinese business world, which from Houston to Paris to Buenos Aires to Kinshasa does span the globe.... but Mandarin/Hokkien/Teochiu/Cantonese/Hainanese speakers, etc. who don't understand each other -and yes this happens ALL the time worldwide everyday and these parties don't suddenly just revert to speaking English when that happens- can simply write what they mean/need to purchase/want to import-export etc. on a piece of paper and the other Chinese party will understand, even if they don't pronounce it the same way.

It's kind of like learning Arabic numerals. It has a 'universal' application.

Universal? Only in China And according to the Chinese govt basic literacy requirements are set at 1500 seperate characters (all must be memorized of course).

Minimum Literacy Standards for Individuals

According to the Regulations on Eradicating Illiteracy revised by the State Council in 1993, current minimum literacy standards for individuals are as follows: with regard to the recognition of characters, 1500 is the threshold set for a rural inhabitant, 2000 for a worker or staff member employed by an enterprise or institution or for an urban inhabitant; besides a neo-literate should

be able to read the easier popular papers and magazines and essays, to be able to keep simple accounts, and to be able to write simple and applications-oriented essay

And this is basic.

Again, I think if the OP wants his children to be fluent in a language for future use, Mandarin is a good choice, but if the OP wants his children to learn another language in order to stretch their linguistic ability a non-tonal language dissimilar to Thai would be better.

[Heng]

Will let you guys argue points 1-3, but as to point 4.... "If Mandarin, writing too?".... yes, learning to write Chinese characters should be encouraged. One may argue whether your child will ever be immersed in the Chinese business world, which from Houston to Paris to Buenos Aires to Kinshasa does span the globe.... but Mandarin/Hokkien/Teochiu/Cantonese/Hainanese speakers, etc. who don't understand each other -and yes this happens ALL the time worldwide everyday and these parties don't suddenly just revert to speaking English when that happens- can simply write what they mean/need to purchase/want to import-export etc. on a piece of paper and the other Chinese party will understand, even if they don't pronounce it the same way.

It's kind of like learning Arabic numerals. It has a 'universal' application.

Universal? Only in China And according to the Chinese govt basic literacy requirements are set at 1500 seperate characters (all must be memorized of course).

Minimum Literacy Standards for Individuals

According to the Regulations on Eradicating Illiteracy revised by the State Council in 1993, current minimum literacy standards for individuals are as follows: with regard to the recognition of characters, 1500 is the threshold set for a rural inhabitant, 2000 for a worker or staff member employed by an enterprise or institution or for an urban inhabitant; besides a neo-literate should

be able to read the easier popular papers and magazines and essays, to be able to keep simple accounts, and to be able to write simple and applications-oriented essay

And this is basic.

Again, I think if the OP wants his children to be fluent in a language for future use, Mandarin is a good choice, but if the OP wants his children to learn another language in order to stretch their linguistic ability a non-tonal language dissimilar to Thai would be better.

Yeah, I didn't mean universal to mean other galaxies and solar systems. I just meant all the countries on earth with Chinese colonies (which is every single country). You can see similar 'note/paper' exchanges -yes sometimes facilitated with some English, some Thai, some Malay, Mandarin, etc.- first hand in many shops (often pharmacy, gold/jewelry, wholesale of whatever...) in Yaowarat.

[meadish_sweetball]

Both parents are fluent in Thai and English = The child will grow up fully bilingual! Any other language would be the SECOND language.

The parents are only fluent in their native language = The child will learn both languages half! Any other language would confuse the kid even more!

I can only agree with qualthrough. Your statement is not supported by and linguistic research I am aware of.

Provided the parents speak only their own language with their child, the child will grow to learn both.

Naturally, the language the child finds the most useful will dominate over the other. If the child finds that one language marks him/her as very different from peers, he/she may not agree to speak it.

For example, a cross cultural couple, say Thai-Swedish, who move to Sweden and live in a small town - if the child has little exposure to Thailand and other Thais than her one parent, she may renounce speaking Thai at a stage of her development when she wants to fit in and build her identity, and choose to communicate exclusively in Swedish, even when her parent speaks to her in Thai.

On the same token, I am aware that if I persist in speaking Swedish to my child while living in Thailand, which I will, he or she may not see much point in learning it properly unless regularly exposed to other Swedes and going to Sweden - small languages are not prestige languages.

English is different - it has a strong position as a world language due to all the popular culture that is produced in English, and most children will see the benefits and want to speak it without much motivation from parents.

[Patex]

...Khun Playtex, didn't you note at the top, I said "Germans need not respond"

n4m,

I didn't respond to your drivel post I only gave my opinion about bilingual raised children from my own experience.

Take my advice for your special case: Mandarin would not be the best choise, go for Lao; perhaps you can find a qualified 6 y.o. teacher in your wives family...

[LaoPo]

...Khun Playtex, didn't you note at the top, I said "Germans need not respond"

n4m,

I didn't respond to your drivel post I only gave my opinion about bilingual raised children from my own experience.

Take my advice for your special case: Mandarin would not be the best choise, go for Lao; perhaps you can find a qualified 6 y.o. teacher in your wives family...

is this meant to be funny ?

LaoPo

[Maizefarmer]

If dad is English/American/Ozzie/Canuck etc and mom is Thai, it's pretty well a given that the kids will be 100% bilingual, i.e. dad speaks English at home and they go to int'l school or some school that teaches English at a respectable level. Naturally Thai will be their first lingo due to environment.

My question is and it's something my wife and I are discussing. How would we give our child a 3rd language and what would be the best one?

This question isn't really directed at folks that are German or French etc. because their kids would have more of a natural route to learn 3 languages, Eng/Thai and German or French (for my example) from dad (or mom).

We are thinking Mandarin would be the best language in terms of the future. If in 20 years, China keeps going like it is going and our kids are coming out of Uni with Chinese skills, how cool would that be for them, what an advantage in life to have the gift of languages.

If it's Mandarin, and we're living in BKK, would it make sense to teach the child the written Chinese? It's not difficult for kids in China to learn the written language as they learn it at school and have environmental influence. So would it be too over-the-top to try to have your child learn the written aspect of Mandarin?

Please don't flame me as being too much of

Yes I strongly reccomend it.

My kids are fluent in all 3 Thai, English and Mandarin.

Mom has and still does always speak Thai to the kids, and I have always spoken only english. From that they have picked up both languages as first languages and speak read and write both as fluently as the other.

As for Chinese (mandarin - Cantonese - in reality very little diff in how they are spoken) they have learn't at school, and while obviously not on par with their Thai/English skills, it is not far behind.

My reasoning: Asia is going to be completely dominated by that awakening giant called China on its doorstep, and in 10 - 15 yeasr time, any child who is fluent in Chinese will have a distinct advantage in the Asian business world (if not the world over!) if they can communicate fluently in Chinese.

Go for it - encoiurage it as much as you can, they'll never regret it.

Tim

[Sing_Sling]

I have given this topic quite a bit of thought and realised that we all use the word 'fluency' with abandon.

I can quite safely say that I am fluent in three languages but that is because I was immersed in the various school systems and countries for years at a time . . . no choice.

What we are talking about here is a different subject as the situations are quite different, most of us leading a more sedentary lifestyle.

One can never be fluent in any language if it is not surrounded by it, and facing the dynamic of a laguage on a constant basis.

Home-spoken language is basic, very basic and is centred on the most preliminary of stages of a language. I guess this is why kids go to school - to broaden their knowledge, hence in Thailand the children will become fluent in Thai and have a basic oral understanding of rudimentary English/German/Swedish/Chinese. (Plus, what are the academic qualifications of any given parent, and I'm not talking about the so-called English teachers here )

Fluency has more to do with knowing all aspects of a language rather than knowing how to say 'Good Morning' or 'yes, please'.

So, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that our kids will be brought up bi-or trilingual. they will be brought up monolingual with a certain proficiecy in other languages.

So there . . . having a shitty day already and thought I'd share my mood.

(Sorry)

[Patex]

I have given this topic quite a bit of thought and realised that we all use the word 'fluency' ...

Sing_Sling is 100% spot on!

But hey, what about the 21 month old daughter from a member who is already tetralingual and moving forward to become pentalingual? Einstein looks like stupid shit compared with this genius .

[roamer]

Another angle; some long term research just published in the Uk found that children who studied and used a second language at home with their parents (in this case portugese) were five times more likely to gain top exam results. Part of this due to the use and development of the pre-frontal lobe of the brain when useing a different language, this in turn leads to better multi tasking skills.

Article here.

Independent

[Maizefarmer]

I have given this topic quite a bit of thought and realised that we all use the word 'fluency' with abandon.

I can quite safely say that I am fluent in three languages but that is because I was immersed in the various school systems and countries for years at a time . . . no choice.

What we are talking about here is a different subject as the situations are quite different, most of us leading a more sedentary lifestyle.

One can never be fluent in any language if it is not surrounded by it, and facing the dynamic of a laguage on a constant basis.

Home-spoken language is basic, very basic and is centred on the most preliminary of stages of a language. I guess this is why kids go to school - to broaden their knowledge, hence in Thailand the children will become fluent in Thai and have a basic oral understanding of rudimentary English/German/Swedish/Chinese. (Plus, what are the academic qualifications of any given parent, and I'm not talking about the so-called English teachers here )

Fluency has more to do with knowing all aspects of a language rather than knowing how to say 'Good Morning' or 'yes, please'.

So, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that our kids will be brought up bi-or trilingual. they will be brought up monolingual with a certain proficiecy in other languages.

So there . . . having a shitty day already and thought I'd share my mood.

(Sorry)

Sorry .. must disagree.

yes, I agree with you as far as my kids ability to speak Chinese goes at this stage in their lerning. It would be more accurate to say that they would be able to read, write and hold a conversation, bu not that they woul dbe fluent in the sense that you describe it.

However, in respect of Thai & English - they have lived both those languages - both at home and at school and kids who grow up in that enviroment have a tendency to want to learn what a word they undertsand in one language is in the 2nd language they speak equaly as much.

I consider my kids to be as fleunt in Thai and in English as they would be in either of those languages if it only one or the other was the only language they were brought up speaking.

Their reading and writing ability in respect of both is equal an dis at the level that one would expect of a kid speaking their home language at whatever age the assessment is made.

I am also one of those people that belive in the theory that language ability is preprogrammed by nature into us i.e. miss the opputtunity as a child and you miss the oppurtunitty to master that language any time later in life.

In that regard, no they will never speak Manderin as well as a kid who grew up speaking it as a 1st language at home.

Tim

Edited November 8, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[Nepal4me]

I have given this topic quite a bit of thought and realised that we all use the word 'fluency' with abandon.

I can quite safely say that I am fluent in three languages but that is because I was immersed in the various school systems and countries for years at a time . . . no choice.

What we are talking about here is a different subject as the situations are quite different, most of us leading a more sedentary lifestyle.

One can never be fluent in any language if it is not surrounded by it, and facing the dynamic of a laguage on a constant basis.

Home-spoken language is basic, very basic and is centred on the most preliminary of stages of a language. I guess this is why kids go to school - to broaden their knowledge, hence in Thailand the children will become fluent in Thai and have a basic oral understanding of rudimentary English/German/Swedish/Chinese. (Plus, what are the academic qualifications of any given parent, and I'm not talking about the so-called English teachers here )

Fluency has more to do with knowing all aspects of a language rather than knowing how to say 'Good Morning' or 'yes, please'.

So, let's not delude ourselves into thinking that our kids will be brought up bi-or trilingual. they will be brought up monolingual with a certain proficiecy in other languages.

So there . . . having a shitty day already and thought I'd share my mood.

(Sorry)

Hi Sing Sling,

Sorry to hear about your shitty day........maybe today will be better

I must say I don't agree with you on your definition of fluency. I don't think fluency is knowing all aspects of a language necessarily. For an adult, sure but children are fluent speakers of their native language even when they are 4 years old and they don't have the full width and breadth of knowledge of the entire language.

Children growing up in Thailand "must" study Thai even if they go to an int'l school. They have the surroundings of Thailand and will therefore become 100% fluent. If dad speaks only English and they go to Int'l school, they will become 100% fluent in English. This has been proved thousands of times over worldwide. Obviously a concerted effort by both parents is a must as well.

With regards to picking up a 3rd language. They will not become natural Chinese speakers without more exposure, so agree with you on that, however I believe they can easily learn a 3rd language if they have appropriate exposure like a nanny for instance. Additionally if the school teaches it and you have a access to some native speakers and their families, that would help but still they will not be as "native" as people in China. Sounds like according to other posters they will be able to adopt an non-accented speaking pattern, which would be great.

Interesting information provided by roamer and further reason to make this effort.

[lannarebirth]

Consider Russian as third language. More interesting and passionate people to converse with, than the Chinese IMO. Any Chinese you'd want to speak with will already know English. And IMO Russian literature is some of the best.

[ChiangMaiChas]

What about Spanish, the American language.

[Sing_Sling]

Hi Mazefarmer and nepal4me,

Thanks for your input (and, yes, I'm having amuch better day, thanks! )

You are probably correct in that I am looking at fluency in adult terms and this doesn't necessarily apply to children (depending on their age, of course).

I guess I was also looking at in in terms of attending local schools and having English spoken at home by one family member only . . . the other(s) being local - wherever that may be.

I stand corrected in those points, gents - thanks.

[Maizefarmer]

In order of importance the business world considers these to be the 3 most important languages - in order:

1) English

2) Chinese (mmmm ... wouldn't suprize me if it overtakes Eng over the next 10 - 20 years)

3) Spainish

In order of most spoken in the world:

1) Chinese

2) English

3) Spainish

.......... however looked at, it is one of the top 3 languages.

Tim

[qualtrough]

There is another advantage to exposing children to other languages that I am not sure has been touched on here. When I was in 4th and 5th grade we studied Spanish an hour or so a week. At that time the concept of a foreign language was a complete mystery to me and I was pretty resistant to the instruction. I did however learn to roll my 'r's. That ability came in very handy later as an adult when learning central Thai (rong rien, riap roi, reow, etc. all involved rolled 'r's). The point I am making is that exposure to other languages as children, in addition to other benefits, will expand the repetoire of sounds they can reproduce and thus may benefit them when learning other languages as an adult.

[ronw]

(Imagine the Donz with three to destroy)

nah! donz cannot damage the alphabet.....he just mangles the spelling and grammar!

I love being pedantic!!

[qualtrough]

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