Preparing to make a (bigger) move to Thailand - advice sought

[Docno]

Hello all. I've lived in Singapore for 16 years but travel to Thailand on a near monthly basis (especially after having started a relationship with my girlfriend there five years ago). My consulting business is slowing down, and given that I'll be turning 54 this year, I'm think of making a 'half-move' to Thailand in the coming months rather than actively trying to refresh my income stream. With this in mind, I'll be moving to a much smaller apartment in Singapore (cheaper but still not cheap!) and will look to rent a second place in Ubon (my gf lives an hour+ outside the city). I intend to maintain my 'permanent residence' status in Singapore and to fly in whenever I have client-facing work, but it's conceivable that I could spent the bulk of my time in Thailand (I'm fortunate in that a lot of my work can be done 'off-site'). In case it's relevant, I have both Australian and Canadian passports, though I need to renew the latter. My questions are these:

1. Am I right in assuming a retirement visa is the best option? I need to educate myself on the Thai Elite programme - cost is not an issue, but I don't want to be throwing my money away. Should I consider it also?
   
2. Is there a residency requirement? In other words, do I have to be careful to stay a minimum amount of time in Thailand per year or per 90 day reporting cycle?
   
3. All the work I do would be delivered in Singapore. For example, I might design (in my flat in Thailand) a training programme that would take place in Singapore. Payment would be made in Singapore to my Singapore bank account. Does this have any implications for being on a retirement visa or for Thai taxes ... I assume not.
   
4. Any general guidelines on how much money I should move to Thailand (I'm not sure what Ubon rents are like) and how and when to do that?
   
5. Any suggestions regarding shipment of personal possessions there?

That's all that occurs to me at the moment. Thanks in advance...

[lkv]

1. You say you intend to maintain your "permanent residence" status in Singapore. Do you actually have PR? If yes, you should discuss with the Thai Embassy in Singapore about this visa. http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/non-immigrant-visa-o-a-long-stay

Non Imm O-A. Visa is valid for 1 year, allows unlimited entries into Thailand with a permission of stay of 1 year also, so used correctly it can allow usage for 2 years.

If you don't qualify for it in Singapore, you may qualify for it in your country of residence.

Alternatively, if you don't have PR but you are a long term pass holder of Singapore, that would qualify you for an METV (Multiple Entry Tourist Visa), valid for 6 months, with duration per entry of 60 days, extendable for a further 30 days per entry. http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/tourist-visa You could stretch one of these visas for roughly 9 months.

I'm not sure if the Thai Embassy in Singapore does Non O visas for retirement, but you could get a single entry non O from another neighboring country and extend it locally at Immigration as long as you meet the financial requirements (proof of income of THB 65,000 or THB 800,000 in a Thai Bank or a combination of them).

Finally, there's the Thai Elite visa that in my personal opinion is wasted money, because you pay a fee of THB 500,000 that you don't get back.

2. There is no minimum requirement of time spent in Thailand to maintain a retirement visa. There are a few tax advantages though by declaring yourself a tax resident of Thailand, that provides you with certain benefits such as effectively zero tax on foreign income.

3. No, you will not have any problems.

4. Impossible to answer, everybody's needs are different, but 3 bedroom houses rent for abt 12K baht at first look online (350 USD per month)

5. I will let others address this one.

Edited May 5, 2016 by lkv

[BritTim]

Prepare for arguments in this thread over whether work done for overseas clients with income received overseas can be done here legally.

A literal interpretation of the law, IMHO made without considering modern realities, says that any work of any description done while in Thailand requires a work permit and appropriate visa. It is actually impossible to get a work permit without being employed by a Thai company, so the law is impractical. Statements made by senior immigration officials at various times has suggested that there is no intention to go after those who have no contact with Thai clients, and do not take a job away from Thai workers. These statements have no force of law behind them. As a practical matter, there is no way the Thai labor department can know what you do in the privacy of your own apartment. Even if working there were not tolerated in the future (as it is now) is never going to get you into trouble if you are discreet about it.

You should be careful about one issue. If you spend enough days in Thailand during a tax year, you become liable for tax on worldwide income, but only insofar as the money is brought into Thailand within 12 months of being earned. You can legally avoid tax liability by carefully segregating recently earned income from savings, and bringing in money from your savings.

To answer your specific questions:

1. A retirement extension may well be your best option if visa exempt entries and tourist entries are insufficient. The advantages of the Thailand Elite program are mostly convenience and obviating the necessity to think about Thai bank account balances once the Elite visa has been acquired.
2. No residency requirement. The only potential complication is that you must be here at the time you need to apply for the annual extension. If you are out of the country, 90-day reports are not even needed.
3. See my introductory remarks.
4. Transferring money into Thailand is quick and easy. I would not sweat this. Rents on quality apartments and houses vary tremendously. If you avoid real estate agents and ask around, there are real bargains to be found. Whatever happens, your rent will be nowhere near Singapore levels.
5. I am not up to date on this. My recollection was that you need to be careful of potential customs duty, depending on visa type.

[cabralad]

Thai retirement visa is the best, its easy to get and allows you to easily open bank accounts or purchase assets in thailand.

Rent in regional thailand is cheap, studio apartments are 4,500 per month, small condo apartments are 8,000 per month and decent houses with euro kitchen and bathroom start at around 17,000 per month.

[johnatong]

Thai retirement visa is the best, its easy to get and allows you to easily open bank accounts or purchase assets in thailand.

Rent in regional thailand is cheap, studio apartments are 4,500 per month, small condo apartments are 8,000 per month and decent houses with euro kitchen and bathroom start at around 17,000 per month.

What do you mean when you advise the OP that the "retirement visa" is best --------------------------Such a visa does not exist !

[darrendsd]

Thai retirement visa is the best, its easy to get and allows you to easily open bank accounts or purchase assets in thailand.

Rent in regional thailand is cheap, studio apartments are 4,500 per month, small condo apartments are 8,000 per month and decent houses with euro kitchen and bathroom start at around 17,000 per month.

Decent houses with Euro kitchen and bathroom start at 17000 per month

Really? Either you have no idea or are being ripped off

[iamjack]

Thai retirement visa is the best, its easy to get and allows you to easily open bank accounts or purchase assets in thailand.

Rent in regional thailand is cheap, studio apartments are 4,500 per month, small condo apartments are 8,000 per month and decent houses with euro kitchen and bathroom start at around 17,000 per month.

Decent houses with Euro kitchen and bathroom start at 17000 per month

Really? Either you have no idea or are being ripped off

For 17,000 rent in Ubon is a ripped off. decent house should cost not more than 10K in upper country.

[Docno]

1. You say you intend to maintain your "permanent residence" status in Singapore. Do you actually have PR? If yes, you should discuss with the Thai Embassy in Singapore about this visa. http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/non-immigrant-visa-o-a-long-stay

Non Imm O-A. Visa is valid for 1 year, allows unlimited entries into Thailand with a permission of stay of 1 year also, so used correctly it can allow usage for 2 years.

If you don't qualify for it in Singapore, you may qualify for it in your country of residence.

Alternatively, if you don't have PR but you are a long term pass holder of Singapore, that would qualify you for an METV (Multiple Entry Tourist Visa), valid for 6 months, with duration per entry of 60 days, extendable for a further 30 days per entry. http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/tourist-visa You could stretch one of these visas for roughly 9 months.

I'm not sure if the Thai Embassy in Singapore does Non O visas for retirement, but you could get a single entry non O from another neighboring country and extend it locally at Immigration as long as you meet the financial requirements (proof of income of THB 65,000 or THB 800,000 in a Thai Bank or a combination of them).

Finally, there's the Thai Elite visa that in my personal opinion is wasted money, because you pay a fee of THB 500,000 that you don't get back.

2. There is no minimum requirement of time spent in Thailand to maintain a retirement visa. There are a few tax advantages though by declaring yourself a tax resident of Thailand, that provides you with certain benefits such as effectively zero tax on foreign income.

3. No, you will not have any problems.

4. Impossible to answer, everybody's needs are different, but 3 bedroom houses rent for abt 12K baht at first look online (350 USD per month)

5. I will let others address this one.

Thanks for your reply and for the link. Looks like there's a lot for me to learn.

I do indeed have permanent residence in Singapore (have lived here 16 years already) but my plan is to wind down my life and 'slowly' shift to Thailand. The work I would do in Thailand is simply writing on my computer ... basically what I do as a tourist when going to other countries on vacation (as a consultant, I can never escape my work). The final product (training programmes, etc.) is delivered, used, and paid for in Singapore, and would not be accessible to Thais (unlike a web-site, etc) ... taxes paid there as well. But I appreciate this can be a grey area to some.

You said that there are financial requirements for a Non O visa that including having certain minimum funds in a Thai bank. I assume then that there's no difficulty opening an account at a Thai bank without a Thai address or visa? Or do you do the initial visa paperwork, then do the bank set-up etc., and then go back to immigration. Thanks again

[Docno]

Prepare for arguments in this thread over whether work done for overseas clients with income received overseas can be done here legally.

A literal interpretation of the law, IMHO made without considering modern realities, says that any work of any description done while in Thailand requires a work permit and appropriate visa. It is actually impossible to get a work permit without being employed by a Thai company, so the law is impractical. Statements made by senior immigration officials at various times has suggested that there is no intention to go after those who have no contact with Thai clients, and do not take a job away from Thai workers. These statements have no force of law behind them. As a practical matter, there is no way the Thai labor department can know what you do in the privacy of your own apartment. Even if working there were not tolerated in the future (as it is now) is never going to get you into trouble if you are discreet about it.

You should be careful about one issue. If you spend enough days in Thailand during a tax year, you become liable for tax on worldwide income, but only insofar as the money is brought into Thailand within 12 months of being earned. You can legally avoid tax liability by carefully segregating recently earned income from savings, and bringing in money from your savings.

To answer your specific questions:

1. A retirement extension may well be your best option if visa exempt entries and tourist entries are insufficient. The advantages of the Thailand Elite program are mostly convenience and obviating the necessity to think about Thai bank account balances once the Elite visa has been acquired.
2. No residency requirement. The only potential complication is that you must be here at the time you need to apply for the annual extension. If you are out of the country, 90-day reports are not even needed.
3. See my introductory remarks.
4. Transferring money into Thailand is quick and easy. I would not sweat this. Rents on quality apartments and houses vary tremendously. If you avoid real estate agents and ask around, there are real bargains to be found. Whatever happens, your rent will be nowhere near Singapore levels.
5. I am not up to date on this. My recollection was that you need to be careful of potential customs duty, depending on visa type.

Thanks for your reply - very useful as it raises issues I was not aware of. Specifically, the matter of tax on worldwide income is an issue. I have a comfortable bank balance in Singapore into which my work income goes. I would see myself as leaving most of my savings in Singapore, keeping a reasonable amount in a Thai bank, and replenishing the Thai bank account from Singapore as needed (every few months perhaps). So it's not a matter of overseas income being brought into Thailand (and Thailand would not even be aware of the overseas income).... its akin to pouring a bucket of water into a pool and scooping out some water from the other side. But it seems that this might be a problem if the Thai authorities were somehow to learn that I was still working in Singapore...?

[lkv]

Thanks for your reply and for the link. Looks like there's a lot for me to learn.

I do indeed have permanent residence in Singapore (have lived here 16 years already) but my plan is to wind down my life and 'slowly' shift to Thailand. The work I would do in Thailand is simply writing on my computer ... basically what I do as a tourist when going to other countries on vacation (as a consultant, I can never escape my work). The final product (training programmes, etc.) is delivered, used, and paid for in Singapore, and would not be accessible to Thais (unlike a web-site, etc) ... taxes paid there as well. But I appreciate this can be a grey area to some.

You said that there are financial requirements for a Non O visa that including having certain minimum funds in a Thai bank. I assume then that there's no difficulty opening an account at a Thai bank without a Thai address or visa? Or do you do the initial visa paperwork, then do the bank set-up etc., and then go back to immigration. Thanks again

Having PR in Singapore, the visa you should be looking at is non O-A. There is a difference between non O and non O-A. According to their website, the Thai Embassy in Singapore seems to be issuing non O-A only, for retirement purposes.

Non O-A is a great visa, because it allows unlimited entries into Thailand for a period of 12 months, and every entry gives you a permission to stay of also 12 months. If you would do your last entry before expiry and you would combine that entry with a multiple reentry permit, you would not have headaches for about two years.

You can also use your Singapore account for proof of funds as long as it has a minimum balance of THB 800,000 equivalent (in whatever currencies you hold).

More details here.

http://www.thaiembassy.sg/visa-matters-/-consular/visa-requirements/non-immigrant-visa-o-a-long-stay

Edited May 9, 2016 by lkv

[moe666]

The O-A visa is a good one to have, applyfor a multiply entry in Singapore and as aboveyou can get 2 years. This gives you time to set up bank account deposit 800,000 baht and extend your o-a for retirement. Do notworry about taxes in Thailand if on a retirement stay of any kind do not volunteer info about anything. read up on the requriments and get to know what you need for long term stay in thailand. all the info you need is here on Thaivisa.

[motyduke]

Be aware that You cannot work here . Even if it online for your business in Singapore . If You live in little place near Ubon, everybody Will know sooner or later and it Will not be a secret. Be careful on immigration visits

[lkv]

The O-A visa is a good one to have, applyfor a multiply entry in Singapore and as aboveyou can get 2 years. This gives you time to set up bank account deposit 800,000 baht and extend your o-a for retirement. Do notworry about taxes in Thailand if on a retirement stay of any kind do not volunteer info about anything. read up on the requriments and get to know what you need for long term stay in thailand. all the info you need is here on Thaivisa.

He does not need to extend his non O-A. I for one prefer to avoid interaction with local immigration whenever possible. They are too fussy, tea money in some places, silly made up requirements etc.

If i was the OP, I would try and get the Non O-A (there is no single, only multiple, the cost is SGD 250).

The OP will travel anyways, and he gets a very generous permission of stay per entry (1 year). Then year 2 I would stretch the last entry with a multiple reentry permit @thb 3,800. Then I would apply in Singapore for another one. And so on.

[moe666]

The O-A visa is a good one to have, applyfor a multiply entry in Singapore and as aboveyou can get 2 years. This gives you time to set up bank account deposit 800,000 baht and extend your o-a for retirement. Do notworry about taxes in Thailand if on a retirement stay of any kind do not volunteer info about anything. read up on the requriments and get to know what you need for long term stay in thailand. all the info you need is here on Thaivisa.

He does not need to extend his non O-A. I for one prefer to avoid interaction with local immigration whenever possible. They are too fussy, tea money in some places, silly made up requirements etc.

If i was the OP, I would try and get the Non O-A (there is no single, only multiple, the cost is SGD 250).

The OP will travel anyways, and he gets a very generous permission of stay per entry (1 year). Then year 2 I would stretch the last entry with a multiple reentry permit @thb 3,800. Then I would apply in Singapore for another one. And so on.

Ecuse me maybe he doesn't mind interaction with immigation the OP can applyfor a extension of stay on his multiply or single entry O-A and yes single entries are issued if requested. Sorry too bust your bubble but after 6 years of dealing with immigration in Bangkok and Chiang Mai never any tea money request, made up requirements and never fussy. Just give the man information about whats availiable and leave less than helpful info out